Experimental Project(s)!?!

[FleeingFox]

Okay, this is a new thing for me, and I really do mean new, I'm trying to write some verse that's not 'Broken Verse'.

I am terribly nervous as to how they are turning out, I'm really not all that with it with the gentler verse forms.

I'm going to post one to beging with, see what some of you folk' think to it, please be brutally honest with me.

I find writing this type of verse REAL hard, it doesn't flow from me as the 'Broken Verse' does, so it's going to be a bit shaky to begin with.

My opening piece is Tender Arms, please let me know if you think it is so awful, but please let me know where I'm going wrong.

Thanks all........................

[FleeingFox]

Tender Arms

So Tired Of Never Knowing, Constantly Unsure;

Always Saw Love, As Black And White, No Grey;

Dared To Open This Heart, Now More Uncertain;

Waiting Patiently, For That Beautiful Entrance;

Ever Enduring, Those Quips And Retorts;

Yearn To Be A Part Of The Laughter, Not The Cause;

Cannot See Past This Present, Time Is Never Ageless;

Dissapointment The Only Certainty, Still Hoping;

Walking Alone At Night, Sitting In Solitary Darkness;

Begging To Sleep Once More, Perhaps To Dream;

In Those Tender Arms, Never To Be Held;

No Doubt In Aching Mind, Eyes Shall Never Meet;

Just A Glimpse Of A Chance, A Vague Scent Of Hope;

Must Drown This Sorrow, Cannot Take This Pain;

Regrets Overflowing, The Romantic Disaster;

Hesitated Once Too Oft', Cursed By Self Doubt;

What Is This Thing Called Love, Senses Burning;

Having To Let Go, Never Knew Such Crippling Sorrow;

Been Alone So Long, Even Strangers Are Beautiful;

Cannot Take This Ceaseless Drifting, Need Rescueing;

Head Bowed Down Low, Hands Held Out Once More;

Tried So Hard To Get Things Right, Failure Sole Success;

One Foot In Front Of The Other, Alone, In The Dark...

[empathic connection]

Your words are as ever, beautiful !

~EC~

[FleeingFox]

The Next 4 Verse actually lead up to MY DREAM LOVE, a piece in the mnaking you might say.

Fade To An Ache

Behind These Blue Eyes, Secrets Burning;

Passion Beyond Belief, Always Shedding Tears;

Wanting To Touch Your Skin, Stuff Of Dreams;

Lips Pursed, Aching To Be Caressed Softly;

Hazily Gazing Into Emptiness, Angels Turn Away;

Alienated By All, Need To Make A Connection;

Treading Sand Under Foot, The Land Of Hope;

Gone Now, All Those Wonderful Dreams;

Awoke To The Cold, Called Out Your Name;

Suspended In Thin Air, Almost Saw Your face;

Never Caught Up, Always Too Far Behind;

Somewhere Out There, This Hearts Desire;

Went Away Once Again, Came Back Too Late;

Can This Hurt, So Deep Inside, Ever Fade To An Ache;

Torn Up, Spat Out, Still Beg For More;

Whispers On The Wind, Just Too Far Away;

Only Dreams, This Life, It Must Be Illusion;

Day After Day, Screaming Out Your Name, Silence;

Who Would have Known, What Is This Pain;

Single Wish, Hear The Pleas, Of The Fool In The Night;

Reach Out, Take My Hand, Be Here, Just A While...

[FleeingFox]

Dream Lovers

Early, In The Cool Morning, Gently Stirring;

Drifting Between Worlds, Not Yet Awake;

Lingering To Smell Your Perfume, Head So Giddy;

Yearning, Aching, Wanting To Touch Your Skin;

So Soft And Warm, Pulling You Closer;

Moving Slowly, Backs Arching, Sweat Glistening;

Kissing Your Tender Lips, Such Ecquisite Delight;

Locks Of Hair, Catching The Rays Of The Sun;

Entwined In Lovers Embrace, Our Eyes Open Wide;

Roaming Slowly Over Each Others Body, Kissing Each Curve;

Eyes But Moments From Meeting, Pure Ecstasy;

The Flutter Of Dove Wings, Dazling Daylight;

Sitting Alone, Upon Our Dreamland Nest;

Perhaps Tonight My Love, Just One More, Kiss...

[FleeingFox]

Vanished

Oh So Softly, A Single Sigh, Escapes These Lips;

Sitting Beneath The Old Birch Tree, Dreaming Lazily;

Thoughts Drift And Sway, Images Come And Go;

Mingled Amidst A Myriad Of Faces, One Re-emerges;

Regardless Of Efforts To Simply Be, Something Stirs Inside;

Slowly Getting Hotter, Thoughts Begin To Clear;

No Longer Drifting, No Longer Swaying, Attention Focused;

Can Deny You No More, You Caress My Sighs;

Trembling Hands Reach Out, Breathless, We Touch;

Everything Suddenly Stops, Our Passion Joins;

From All Around Us, Cherry Blossum Sprinkles Down;

Warm Winds, Grant Them Enchanted Movement;

Arm In Arm, We Glide Through The Air Entwined;

Bodies Pressed Firm, Mouths Quiver As We Kiss;

No Sound Can Be Heard, Except Moist Skin Upon Moist Skin;

With A Faltering Pounding Heart, We Become As One;

Electrified Sensation, So Sweet Your Gentle Arching;

Reaching Out To Touch Your Brow, No My Love, Please, Don't Go;

A Light Bristling Upon My Cheek, A Single Fallen Leaf;

Vanished In Thin Air, A Single Tear Hits The Ground...

[FleeingFox]

My Dream Love

Beauties Of The World, Gazed Upon Them All;

Could See A Million Worlds, Filled With Such Girls;

Can Honestly Say, Will Never Find One Quite Like You;

Perfection Can Never Be Found, That Is What They Say;

Well My Dream Love, They Cannot Have Seen You;

Your Eyes So Gentle, Your Lips So Soft;

Nothing Comes Close To You, You Are One Of A Kind;

During The Cold, And Lonely Night, Needing You;

Each And Every Day, Wanting You;

Aching So Deep Inside, To Be With You;

My Dream Love, My Sweet Dream Love;

Come Closer, Take One More Trembling Step;

Be Here With Me, Make Love With Me;

Let Our Warm And Tender Kisses, Last Forever;

Never Turn From Me, Always Be Here With Me;

Can You Feel Me, Do You Need Me, Do You Want Me;

Lift Your Head My Love, Gaze Into MY Eyes;

The Stark And Naked Truth, There's No Escaping You...

[FleeingFox]

Okay, so I've a long way to go with this form of verse,

Thank You EC, your praise, above all, is gratefully welcomed.

Please do not feel adverse to being harsh about these pieces, they are a birthing of a new way of expressing myself, I am very unsure of how to progress, any and all helpful criticism is welcomed........

[Swan]

Fox I don't write poetry any more, it went when I 'grew up'. I guess now that I'm in less pain I might try to start again.

When I was writing a lot though, I found that the tightest and tautest poetry I wrote (and the poetry that was most enthusiastically received by people whose opinion I trusted) was that which was based on very disciplined forms, like the haiku and Vilanelle where most of the effort consisted in cutting out the words and exchanging them for more exact ones.

Writing is a very personal thing, and I stopped because I wasn't up to putting it out there for criticism (same thing with painting) but if you are genuinely asking for views my suggestion would be that alongside the free verse that you are writing you try something shorter and tighter. As a reader I find myself intimidated by the number of words and capitals. I think it was in Amadeus that either the king or Mozart criticised a piece of music for having 'too many notes'. sometimes by saying too much you end up obscuring the spirit of what you mean with the meat of what you have written. I don't know if this makes sense and I hope that you are not hurt by it - I've taken you at your word when you said you wanted honest comments.

The best book on poetry that I've found is the Norton textbook that is used in universities. It has a great prologue that explains all the various forms, and I have to say that my favourite is the vilanelle, which is the form of the poem that I used to have in my signature, but there are so many based around rhyming couplets and variations of them quite apart from the basic sonnet, which is always lovely.

[Lauren]

Swan,

If you can create a good or even half decent vilanelle then you should not of stopped!

Fox,

I will be frank.Your work could be genius,but it is hard on the eyes just to look at it on the screen.So I have not managed to get very far with it tonight.But then I am exausted.

It is something that is often neglected.Prehaps stop,read it through as though to an audience.See where the breaks naturally fall (or un naturally of course.Depending on the effect you are trying to have.)

Swan is right,Poem's should be tight.A stray word that is not needed can destroy the best of work.

Think about how you want to make the reader feel.What tale are you trying to spin.Paint pictures in there minds but leave room for the individual imagination.

I will come back to these.I strongly suspect that your work you have shared here is worth it.Though im not keen to do a full on crit here.

[Lauren]

Ok,

Just had a quick scan.You know a few of them read like a story.Have you thought about doing anything down that line?

I think you would be rather good at it.

[Christine]

fox

i must agree that i too found it hard to get past the first 2 verses but maybe that is just my attention span!!!

the most poiniant line i found in your first verse was

[FleeingFox]

Swan, your input is always warmly welcome,

oh no, please don't use such ref' as:

I think it was in Amadeus that either the king or Mozart criticised a piece of music for having 'too many notes'.

It wasn't either, it was another irritating little minded man in the story, he was being an arse about one of Wolfgang's pieces, do you also recal Wolfgang's response to this comment?

I do know what some of you are getting at tho', please would you go further in your criticism, I'm finding some comments thus made of little help.

I'm keen to get more criticism from both Swan and Lauren, you guys seem to be onto the kind of thing I'm after.

I already know that folk find my work difficult to relate to, this is why I'm asking for guidance, but pointless badgering is not what I'm looking for.

I'm not at all interested in trying any formulated type of writing, such work is not from the soul, I loathe formulated garbage, and I detest rhyme.

Many people have said in the past about my work that they like not my placing of comma's and my useage of capitals. The use of capitals is intentional, this is my preferred choice of style. I read every single piece many times before I post them, the placing of commas is very much intentional. Too many folk like to be able to tear through a written piece without taking the time to absorb that which is being conveyed.

Everything I write comes out exactly as they are posted here, I make no corrections nor alterations, this is contrary to my aim. There are works trapped within me which once released will paint the most vivid images in the readers mind. I need to learn how to use some of the qualities you guys suggest 'as' my work is released from within me.

Everything I write about is from within me, it is all based upon mine own life experiences and my inner emotions. I'm not trying to emulate some one else, nor do I wish to learn how to do so, what would Mozart have created should he have tried to emulate the King!?!

Never having had the opportunity of an education, I stayed at 17 state institutions during my childhood, I never really went to school, I wasn't in any place long enough to do so, I have had no training in any form of the writing arts.

I'm kind of like a raw canvas trying to paint itself if you know where I'm coming from, but this canvas knows exactly what it wishes to paint itself as, it simply doesn't know how to.

I'm going to look into this Norton book you mention Swan, can't say as I'll get around to buying one, cash being so tight as it is.

I'm not retaliating to either of you guys in the way I know my post here will suggest. I don't really know how to get myself across, it's one of the many down sides of not talking face to face with folk, but please know that I am grateful for your inputs and am eagerly awaiting further assistance, should you wish to offer any........

[Lauren]

Hi,

I am not avoiding this thread.I am just tired today.Caught up in making to much of the every day mundane things.

Though your aviator does not instill confidence in crit'ing someones work

More later

x

[Lauren]

For what its worth I didnt have any formal education past 16 and the two years prior to that where to far between.

[FleeingFox]

Though your aviator does not instill confidence in crit'ing someones work

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There you go, back to my old avatar, you aint the first to comment, no worries, point taken!!!!!!

[Lauren]

I did not mean that you should remove it.

Anyway,firstly your use of Grammer.

I know that you have said that you are not keen on its use.But by using it well you can change the whole tone or add to what you already

have.

The amount of commas in your work.For the length that they are they are in abundence.If anything they make you read it quicker.

A far better way to get a reader to take there time in places of importance is to use line breaks.

Ok,what else.Prehaps more use of tactile imagery.Allow your reader to indulge in at least a little figurative work.

Also prehaps have a think about how you render an image.Paint it clearly,dont gesture vaguely towards it.

[Lauren]

Hope my thoughts do not cause offense.

My Grammer.....well most of time it bends all the rules. (ok smashes them)

But if you get the basics working well.Start to get a feel for your own style.Figure out how to create a tight poem that works well.

Then you can play around a bit.

[Lauren]

This is a 'style' that I get a feeling may suit you.

A story in a poem if you like.

The Indian baby

nameless for a year,

now is named:

"God never abandons me"

by her blood father

who is in jail and never

asks to take a look at her

or bothers to ask

about her.

Her mother carries her

and weeps - homeless

no hope to grasp

none to accept them

let stand the man in jail

who raped her

when she was a virgin.

"God never abandons me",

she turns to accept

the baby's name and a void.

[Lauren]

When I first started writing again,I used the news to inspire me.Kept me away from myself.Allowed me to practise without becoming to drained by it.

[FleeingFox]

Nah, couldn't stick with my old avatar, I'm not being honest with myself by being something someone else would prefer me to be, I am that which I am, I care not if it pleases others.

I'm definitely going to stick with my darker verse, that which I relate to most strongly is my Broken Verse, this fluffy lovey twaddle I've tried to write is boring me senseless, it's just not me.

I know what you're saying about the imagery Lauren, that's what I'm trying to develop, I know my construct is weak, I'm reading a lot of stuff on the net about poetry form', man, there's so much to learn, I've got a MASSIVE headache now!!!!

There doesn't seem to be any 'real' set format or form, even the set styles are moot, one school of thought will make one valuation of a given 'set form', yet an opposing school of thought will utterly condemn that which the previous school of thought has condoned, I'm so giddy with all of this, no-one seems to want to commit themselves to one way or the other.

How on earth are we supposed to know where to go when looking to improve our art, I'm more confused now than I was before I started looking into the whole business, total head-fuck!

As a small pointer, I'm not trying to write poetry, I'm a bit lost as to how my seeking advice on my Verse has turned into a poetry subject, I hate poetry. If I had to use a poetry definition for my verse, it would be therapuetic poetry, where the emphasis is on self-expression, exploration and discovery.

[Lauren]

Because a lot of the stuff you ask about is much the same what ever way you choose to express yourself.

I get the impression you think I edge towards fluffy ducks and bleeding hearts.I dont.Actually I guess if you do think that its a compliment in a peverse round about way.

Try not to worry about form to much.Who says it has to be correct?.The ones with the most talent know that the best stuff often comes when you rip the rule book up.

Half my crap lately is full of keyboard grammer where I mess about on a blank screen.

Though then it never looks the same in ink.Saying that I should pick up a pen again soon.Has been a week or so.Guess the bug is weak right now.

Very glad you went back to your growly face thing.I try to practise this radical acceptance/honesty crap.If only because it means I can be a rude,insulting b**ch and blame it on that.

What is that thing anyway?.You know what.....least it has an effect.Maybe that is all you need to think about with your verse.

Best of luck with it.

[Swan]

Swan, your input is always warmly welcome,

oh no, please don't use such ref' as:

I think it was in Amadeus that either the king or Mozart criticised a piece of music for having 'too many notes'.

It wasn't either, it was another irritating little minded man in the story, he was being an arse about one of Wolfgang's pieces, do you also recal Wolfgang's response to this comment?

I do know what some of you are getting at tho', please would you go further in your criticism, I'm finding some comments thus made of little help.

I'm keen to get more criticism from both Swan and Lauren, you guys seem to be onto the kind of thing I'm after.

I already know that folk find my work difficult to relate to, this is why I'm asking for guidance, but pointless badgering is not what I'm looking for.

I'm not at all interested in trying any formulated type of writing, such work is not from the soul, I loathe formulated garbage, and I detest rhyme.

Many people have said in the past about my work that they like not my placing of comma's and my useage of capitals. The use of capitals is intentional, this is my preferred choice of style. I read every single piece many times before I post them, the placing of commas is very much intentional. Too many folk like to be able to tear through a written piece without taking the time to absorb that which is being conveyed.

Everything I write comes out exactly as they are posted here, I make no corrections nor alterations, this is contrary to my aim. There are works trapped within me which once released will paint the most vivid images in the readers mind. I need to learn how to use some of the qualities you guys suggest 'as' my work is released from within me.

Everything I write about is from within me, it is all based upon mine own life experiences and my inner emotions. I'm not trying to emulate some one else, nor do I wish to learn how to do so, what would Mozart have created should he have tried to emulate the King!?!

Never having had the opportunity of an education, I stayed at 17 state institutions during my childhood, I never really went to school, I wasn't in any place long enough to do so, I have had no training in any form of the writing arts.

I'm kind of like a raw canvas trying to paint itself if you know where I'm coming from, but this canvas knows exactly what it wishes to paint itself as, it simply doesn't know how to.

I'm going to look into this Norton book you mention Swan, can't say as I'll get around to buying one, cash being so tight as it is.

I'm not retaliating to either of you guys in the way I know my post here will suggest. I don't really know how to get myself across, it's one of the many down sides of not talking face to face with folk, but please know that I am grateful for your inputs and am eagerly awaiting further assistance, should you wish to offer any........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry if I got the quote wrong - was it Salieri who said that - and if so I suppose Wolfgang said that it had neither too many nor too few but just exactly as many as it needed. despite that I have to say though that at times some of his pieces certainly seem to have too many notes for me and to become totally unlistenable (I had a wall to wall Mozart exposure as a child because my dad loves him and played the bloody Horn concertos to death. but I love the Requiem as much as some Renaissance music and the same applies to the Operas - Magic flute and Don Giovanni especially. I loved the film, especially Salieri's speech about mediocrity. I'd just seen my best friend descend from genius into psychotic chaos so it seemed terribly apt at the time. My life seems to be about a constant craving for order and space though, so perhaps it is a reflection of that.

I was and to an extent still am, passionately sensitive and angry about writing, poetry and prose - in many ways they are only different forms of the same thing. The only way to learn to write (and to speak) well is to read, read, read everything you can get your hands on 'mindfully' as the DBT'ers would say - in other words with a critical awareness of what sounds good and what doesn't work, and then work out why. Good writing is good writing in any language - even if you don't understand the words. I also believe that it is essential to thoroughly understand the forms that you are smashing or deconstructing in order to undermine them properly and a thorough study of all the greatest artists and politicians who have succeeded in genuine originality shows that they achieved that very quickly (Picasso and Turner are both perfect examples of painters in this respect)

Lit Crit is for wasters - I did first year English at University, intending to continue with it as a major and was so disappointed that I went from one of the highest marks in the country in my school final exams to scraping a pass. I raged at my tutors all year and they hated me back.

When I was younger, and sometimes still now, I have scraps that form in my head and have to be written down in order to be 'let out'. Rarely they are perfectly formed, more often they are the beginnings of something that needs further work. The longer I live and the more writing I do (which is quite a lot, since my work requires constant reading, drafting and speaking) the more I learn that the 1% inspiration comes after about 64% perspiration and is usually followed by at least another 35%, two thirds of which consists of removing excess verbiage.

Lauren you have persuaded me that I should dig out some of my writing and put it on here - I'd welcome your views, but I've no idea where it is, so it may take some time to find it. I know I was pretty chuffed with my vilanelle though, so I'll be interested in your opinion

Keep writing Fox, and realise that although all good writing comes from the heart, writing that comes from the heart is not necessarily all good (sorry, I realise that sounds pat, but it is not intended to be) and that to find your truest voice and give it strength it is necessary to work as hard as if you were training for a marathon - in many ways that is what you are doing.

[FleeingFox]

My dearest Swan, please do not apologise to me, of all people, keep your eyes peeled mate, this here's the original bulls-up in action, ME!

Oh still my twitching eyes, yep, you spelt Salieri correctly, not trying to be anything odd there, but I've seen many written versions of the court composers name, yours is the first one I've seen spelt correctly.

Nah, can't remember the twots name, do you recal the beady eyed wigg with the spectacles who's always kissing the emperors arse, I think it may have been him, not sure, aint seen Amadeus in a dogs age. It could also have been that lounge lizard wigg with the gangly legs and HUGE nose who's also too far up the emperors backside for comfort.

Personally, I can't stand Mozart's music, I hate all that classical twoddle, yep, I am fully aware of its relevence to todays music, but I still hate it.

When I think of Mozart I can't help but be so totally amazed by his ability to have an 'entire opera' in his head, every last aspect of the piece already there, just waiting to be released unto the paper, that in itself is what takes my breath away with the concept of Mozart.

Yes, not all that comes from the heart is good, I do not find you patronising at all, quite the reverse to be quite frank. Perhaps my greatest problem is my less than commanding grasp of language in itself, what then I must ask myself does this mean, I've done all the thesaurus balloney, it's simply too artificial, there's nothing raw and original about changing words that come from within. Hmmm, this then leads me to think, where the hell am I going to go from here, be blasted if I know, I'll have to give that even 'more' thought.

Lauren, fluffy ducks and bleeding hearts, nah, never had you pegged for all that crap, nah, never!

Fluffy crap is such a waste of life, I'll leave all that crap to the geeza's trying to get their leg'over.

I'm still spinning around in my head at a billion miles per second, hmmm, the plot thickens, nothing in life is straight forward, cOOl, something to really sink my teeth into.

My avatar, well, it's not anything to do with an Indian (asian) god, it's a man morphing into a physical manifestation of his beast within, matches me perfectly don't you think!

Would you both please fire back into this thread if either of you have anything further to add, and Swan, I'd love to see some of your work........

[Swan]

don't dismiss anything out of hand, just learn to be selective.

Music - Palestrina; Scarlatti; Bach (absolutely everything); Mozart (Requiem Mass); Beethoven (5th and 9th Symphonies); Tchaikovsky; Cole Porter (Every Time we say Goodbye sung by Annie Lennox on the Red Hot and Blue album if you can get it); David Bowie (The Man Who Sold the World); Kurt Cobain (the whole of the MTV Special and Smells like Teen Spirit - "Here we are now, Entertain us; I feel stupid, and contagious" still sends a shiver up my spine when I think how I was at fourteen!)

Fox there is so much astonishing art in the world you will need five lifetimes to experience it all. I'm regretting the last three years of dullness SO much!

You do best when you write 'straight' without fiddling with grammar or changing words, in fact you write very well and very readably at those times.

The answer to your question is to read and listen (what people say in their daily lives is often full of ambiguity and creativity) and soak it all up like a sponge and then to go down and down and down into yourself and simply see what is there and what comes out - my guess is that if you let your mind go and float but be alert to what comes out when you are not expecting it you'll surprise yourself.

As for Mozart having whole operas in his head - he worked like a demon, all the time, and if you listen to his music a lot of it is quite repetitious - he may have written an opera straight off (although there may have been some myth-making there too) but that doesn't mean that he hadn't been working on it through all the other music that he wrote and all the thinking time that he was doing even when he was on the loo or fast asleep. I've written documents very fast before, when it came to simply sitting down and writing them, but they were often the result of months of thinking, and if you are really engaged with an idea you don't need to make written notes about it.

anyway, Portia is telling me it is time for bed, so I'd better go, but keep talking, because I find this discussion fascinating - it is waking up my slumbering writing-monster too, so just realise what you're doing please :D