Totally F*cked Up For No Reason At All

[Crackers]

Heya Walker,

Yay! Stay here, good idea, feeling any better tonight?

Loads of love Rach xxx

[walker]

well half sober, so can see the keyboard better

In a numb phase atm

but thanks

xx

[hummm_mabbe]

To add a little extra - part of that chapter I told you about earlier had this to say. I t was talking about how people with PD's, especially BPD, want the therapist to see how awful, bad and malevolent they are. They need to be accepted for what they are RIGHT NOW - ie, validated. Most therapists miss this, because it seems so wrong to agree with a patentionts negative view of themself. So they 'challenge', and instead you feel unheard and invalidated.

DBT (and schema) tries to get round this by saying what I have said to you before - YES right now things are fucked up, and you do stuff that shoots you and others in the foot. But you have arrived at this place because of the life you have had and the choices made along the way. You are now EXACTLY AS YOU SHOULD BE - but you have decided that you want to change.

That is what a DIALECTIC is - two mutually exculsive beliefs that ust be held in mind in order to effect recovery. YES there are many ways that people can see you as flawed, bad, attention seeking, wrong ... thats what you have, in some peoples eyes, become. But Its the proverbail crossroads - and the only way to get better is to take the path forwards. That path is being showed to you by James, but you need that validation of your BADNESS.

I had this same thing with Emma - I need her to see that I do bad things - but its because I feel forced to. It took her some sessions before she realised I needed that, but she saw that underneath all the gradiosity and dumb shit, really what i wanted was love and closeness. I just expressed it in ways that SUCKED. Once she accepted that, I could move on.

That is validation resistance.

[Rael]

:hug2: hun

wish i could offer so much more

i often felt that i needed to be pushed more by my therapist, but then backed off when she did, felt all defensive and really it was as if i only wanted her to push so that i had an excuse to run away, something concrete i could fear.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

hun

wish i could offer so much more

i often felt that i needed to be pushed more by my therapist, but then backed off when she did, felt all defensive and really it was as if i only wanted her to push so that i had an excuse to run away, something concrete i could fear.

xxx

Was that because you were afraid of what you might be made to feel if you stayed with the therapy and had to look inot what was really going on, deep inside? BPD folks often run from therapy saying things like "dont make me FEEL - if I have to feel I'll hurt myself, and because of that I hate you". Its one of the things about BPD that makes it so hard to recover from.

[walker]

YES right now things are fucked up, and you do stuff that shoots you and others in the foot. But you have arrived at this place because of the life you have had and the choices made along the way

yes I think James tries hard to do this

I also think all the bad needs validating as it was not accepted as part of who I was when I was growing up

Rael - feel similar - like hit me hit me hit me - and then total fear if they do. (metaphorically speaking of course)

[Rael]

i think more than anything i was afraid of people seeing what i thought, knowing the things i knew, the experiences, the violent uncontrollable self that i see just waiting to pour out.

i want them to see, to hate me, to understand how i can hate myself so much, how i can deserve everything. but then i revert to the weak, self-effacing, continually trying to please mode and try to cover up my true self for fear that once more i will be left.

[hummm_mabbe]

i think more than anything i was afraid of people seeing what i thought, knowing the things i knew, the experiences, the violent uncontrollable self that i see just waiting to pour out.

i want them to see, to hate me, to understand how i can hate myself so much, how i can deserve everything. but then i revert to the weak, self-effacing, continually trying to please mode and try to cover up my true self for fear that once more i will be left.

You want someone, just in that moment, to know whats really going on on the inside, and why you feel the way you do about yourself?

Like perhaps if they really knew what you were like too, they would cast you out, punish you and reject you?

[walker]

oh yes I know that one

keep sending James emails about how evil and vile I am, and how I am destroying him, and how he will hate me, even if he doesnt already.

But when I feel like that, I HAVE to tell him.

to be honest I think he is getting a bit fed up of it,

But when I am in the middle of it - it is absolute compulsion

[hummm_mabbe]

oh yes I know that one

keep sending James emails about how evil and vile I am, and how I am destroying him, and how he will hate me, even if he doesnt already.

But when I feel like that, I HAVE to tell him.

to be honest I think he is getting a bit fed up of it,

But when I am in the middle of it - it is absolute compulsion

So, is it kind of like you feel that when people say youre ok, or deserve to be better, you feel like they would not say that if they truly KNEW what you were like, deep down? Like maybe, until they fully see how black and horrible you are inside, they do not truly undertand you, and if they did, they would not like you?

[Rael]

walker, that is exactly how i feel and it is horrible. i often wake up and realize things i have said, that i have had to say, yet in the cold light of day you see people shrink from you that little bit more.

hummm, you got it in one.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

walker, that is exactly how i feel and it is horrible. i often wake up and realize things i have said, that i have had to say, yet in the cold light of day you see people shrink from you that little bit more.

hummm, you got it in one.

xxx

So, it feels like when people say you're likeable, or ok, they cannot possibly be right, because they dont know the half of it. But you cant tell them the truth, because then they WOULD reject you, but yet some part of you still feels compelled to tell them from time to time, just how bad you really are?

I wonder, is what you need to be able to show all of yourself to someone, and have them say "even with all that shit, I accept you"? To feel held and comforted, even despite all the bad, and blackness and sickness - for someone to just accept you as you are, right now?

[walker]

So, is it kind of like you feel that when people say youre ok, or deserve to be better, you feel like they would not say that if they truly KNEW what you were like, deep down? Like maybe, until they fully see how black and horrible you are inside, they do not truly undertand you, and if they did, they would not like you?

yes

I wonder if what you are needing is to be able to show all of yourself to someone, and have them say "even with all that shit, I accept you"? To feel held and comforted, even despite all the bad, and blackness and sickness - for someone to just accept you as you are, right now?

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

yes

[hummm_mabbe]

So, is it kind of like you feel that when people say youre ok, or deserve to be better, you feel like they would not say that if they truly KNEW what you were like, deep down? Like maybe, until they fully see how black and horrible you are inside, they do not truly undertand you, and if they did, they would not like you?

yes

I wonder if what you are needing is to be able to show all of yourself to someone, and have them say "even with all that shit, I accept you"? To feel held and comforted, even despite all the bad, and blackness and sickness - for someone to just accept you as you are, right now?

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

yes

And so maybe, if you feel they havent understood that, do you feel you cannot move on - that you need to tell them and tell them, louder and louder, until they hear? But maybe you sense that the more you do that, the more frsutarted they get, and you feel scared they are distancing from you?

[Rael]

i agree with absolutely all of that...except (sorry have to be awkward )

i really doubt that i want to be accepted. i mean, i know that deep down that is what the majority of people want, its just that it is something that i can never see as being a part of me. maybe i am juts so ingrained in 'knowing' that i must be hated and feared that acceptance has just never occurred to me. i push and i push and i lash out and hurt and scream and cry and seem to sabotage all that i can, all in the name of 'proving' something. maybe i dont want others to hate me, maybe im trying to prove to myself that i deserve to be hated 'look at all the bad you do, all the hurt you cause'.

meh, just rambling to myself

[hummm_mabbe]

i agree with absolutely all of that...except (sorry have to be awkward )

i really doubt that i want to be accepted. i mean, i know that deep down that is what the majority of people want, its just that it is something that i can never see as being a part of me. maybe i am juts so ingrained in 'knowing' that i must be hated and feared that acceptance has just never occurred to me. i push and i push and i lash out and hurt and scream and cry and seem to sabotage all that i can, all in the name of 'proving' something. maybe i dont want others to hate me, maybe im trying to prove to myself that i deserve to be hated 'look at all the bad you do, all the hurt you cause'.

meh, just rambling to myself

If there was a place where you could go, that people knew EVERYTHING you had ever done, and what you were capable of, and said, "even with that stuff, we dont care - we've done similar bad shit too, we can deal with the bad stuff and dont judge you, and we want you here" and they took you in, listened to you, gave you comfort, how would that feel? If you knew that, even if you fuck up again, there is w ay you can be forgiven, theres a way it will work out? To truly be part of something that finally, after all these years, filled that hole thats been inside you all your life?

And you didnt have to feel that painful emptiness anymore?

[Rael]

what worries me the most is the fact that i fear a situation like that so much. it just seems such an alien concept to me. its not even something that i can comfortably comprehend. just fills me with confusion.

sorry walker seem to be hijacking your thread, really dont mean to hun, i will try and be quiet

thinking of you

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

what worries me the most is the fact that i fear a situation like that so much. it just seems such an alien concept to me. its not even something that i can comfortably comprehend. just fills me with confusion.

sorry walker seem to be hijacking your thread, really dont mean to hun, i will try and be quiet

thinking of you

xxx

I think that makes sense, if its something that you've never had. I feel pretty much the same, like its only a fantasy and I wouldnt know how to deal with it, and so because of that it confuses me. But I also know that its the one thing that can stop me feeling empty, and that somehow I want to make that happen - even though it will take me a lot of time to trust.

I never knew what that feeling was like - until I felt it, just a little, in therapy. Its something you cannot know in your head - it has to be felt in your body, but when you do, you cannot forget it.

[Rael]

makes a lot of sense - as usual

i wont stop trying, i cant. has to be do-able, i mean, or a lot of us wouldnt be here right?? we sek out the familiar, and as much as it pains us to see our friends and acquaintances hurt, it feels comforting to have someone say they understand. no matter how real we feel what they are saying is, just hearing the words.....maybe i have felt it in a way, maybe that was why i ran away from here a few months ago. maybe i was scared i might 'fit in' somewhere.

[walker]

i found out it existed, when I went to see the man that helped me in my late 20's

he would always say

'its ok' - and sometimes I would call him - just to hear him say it

Until I met him - I had no concept that anyone could relate to me in that way - I was 29, and had not even realised that a place like that existed- OR that I needed to find it

It was and still remains - the closest thing I have ever had - to unconditional love

BUT it also confused me, and over time I grew very confused about how I felt for him.

The worst thing was moving so that I couldnt see him again - I honestly thought I couldnt live without him.

He was the person I turned to in feb this year,(15 years later) , but in May I decided I could no longer use him, as he couldnt be there for me

It broke my heart

I sent him a txt on May 15th and by May 19th I wanted to die and sank into a very very deep depression.

It still hurts, deeply

and I think I am still searching for that relationship

[Rael]

i find that i am in constant search for a 'rescuer', the one who can say the right things when i need him too, who can wrap his arms around me and just drain the badness away.

but i have raised my expectations so high, no one is perfect, i can say it and yet i still believe that there could be that one who could 'fix' everything. i have thought i had found it in the past, but have always given in at the first sign that all is not how i had imagined it in my fairytale world. i cam to believe that happiness only lives in dreams, but for some reason had neglected to come by my dreams for a visit.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

i found out it existed, when I went to see the man that helped me in my late 20's

he would always say

'its ok' - and sometimes I would call him - just to hear him say it

Until I met him - I had no concept that anyone could relate to me in that way - I was 29, and had not even realised that a place like that existed- OR that I needed to find it

It was and still remains - the closest thing I have ever had - to unconditional love

BUT it also confused me, and over time I grew very confused about how I felt for him.

The worst thing was moving so that I couldnt see him again - I honestly thought I couldnt live without him.

He was the person I turned to in feb this year,(15 years later) , but in May I decided I could no longer use him, as he couldnt be there for me

It broke my heart

I sent him a txt on May 15th and by May 19th I wanted to die and sank into a very very deep depression.

It still hurts, deeply

and I think I am still searching for that relationship

I think so too. I dont think you need to feel guilty about any feelings that you had for him - when we feel close to someone like we never have with anyone else, all sorts of feeligs come up, sometimes sexual, sometimes angry, sometimes things we could never say outloud, but that is what happens when we have so many emotions buried away like that, and its ok, it really is. The thing we may never realise is its ok to say that, its ok to tell them. I admitted to Emma that I was attracted to her, because I felt it was getting in the way of therapy, and it made everything so much easier. Feeling attracted to a therapist is a normal thing to happen, who esle can we feel so close to?

You know, I also got very close (but not sexually as he was a dude) with my first private therapist. I still text him too, from time to time, and even sometimes imagine his voice. He was like the Dad I always wanted, and I felt sad when i had to leave. It made me feel that i could never, ever find someone that i felt that way about again - but slowly I am feeling that with Emma, as the trust barriers come down.

I think thats what we want, deep inside. That feeling, and when we have had it once, its all the more poignant to lose it and never have it back again. It kind of haunts us forever, and yes - we search for it.

Maybe you so very much want to feel that acceptance from James, but something is blocking it, somehow you feel that he still doesnt yet see the 'full you', and so he cannot truly accept you? Perhaps you feel stuck and like you have to make him see, but that you are scared because time feels like its running out?

[walker]

yes, a rescuer

all loving, all accepting, all knowing, yet understanding

the touch of someone who forgives every imperfect cell in my body

who loves me for who I am

but that is impossible - If I cant do it for myself, how can I ever expect someone else to be there for me

[hummm_mabbe]

but that is impossible - If I cant do it for myself, how can I ever expect someone else to be there for me

Because as you said above, someone once did - and if it can happen once, it can happen again

[walker]

OMG this is starting hurt

It isnt going to happen, and I am filled with a grief, each time I visit James

and when I leave, ..........................

well the void widens and the longing deepens