Jump to content
Mental Health Forums

"but I Wasnt Abused"


hummm_mabbe

Recommended Posts

Thanks for clearing those few things up for me. I didn't mean to put you down in any way in asking for your sources - I'm sure you can appreciate my hesitancy to just take your word for it. I mean, you can't believe half of the 'legitimate' stuff you find on the net, and the posts of someone in a forum who you don't know even less (I hope that came out right). Point is, I start my degree in psychology at uni next year so it was from a completely academic point of view that I asked those questions.

The Handbook of Personology and Psychopathology I have on my computer here somewhere (I downloaded a huge torrent that had a stackload of textbooks), and when I get some time I'll check it out a bit. At the moment I'm working on establishing a Mental Health Collective at uni for next year to help support students with mental illness.

On a separate but relevant note, I would like to know your thoughts on DBT, but I think it might be best done in a separate thread, so please check back in the forum foyer for my post, and I would love to hear your reply.

Im EXTREMELY jealous that you got a free copy of the Handbook - I paid 50 quid for it! :( I deleted all my P2P programs after they started arresting people :( The Handbook is my (main easily re-findable source cos its on my shelf) for the "pro-biology" point of view.

I will have a look for the DBT thread :D

Arresting people?!? Which coutry does that? I'm in Aus, and they're talking about introducing internet censorship here! Yay, lets be like China, or N Korea or Burma. Maybe we could live in a fascist society next. I know, why don't they start arresting us for being 'seditious'!

Sigh...sorry. I'm getting through a lot of my 'borderline stuff', but I still get this terrible anxiety over the state of national and international policies. Of having my freedoms completely annihilated. I think I read too much :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • Replies 96
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Wow...

Ok, I have so much to contribute but don't know where to start. I just finished 'Reinventing Your Life' (the Dutch version, so I might need help now and then with some English translations) and have started the exercises. When I try to go back to find those painful moments as a child, I get stuck. Compared to some, my childhood was a utopia - which is why I can't understand why I have the problems I do.

I am aware that I was treated as something extremely special by my mother. I am the youngest of three, the only girl. My mother didn't just love me, she loved me BEYOND, more than ANYTHING. I felt I barely did anything to receive so much love, I guess at one point I stopped believing her - if someone has to say they love you that much, they can't really mean it, can they? I wished she would treat me as just me, I was put on a pedestal, where I feel I am to this day, and all I want to do is get down.

Being the youngest, I was the joke of the family. My ideas were never taken seriously, I was patronized and ridiculed in a humorous way, which makes it even more painful to remember, since it has had a profound effect on me and my confidence in my abilities. So I found myself setting myself up for that ridicule - the attention I got was so much more rewarding than anything else, because it made my family members feel good about themselves. By putting me down, they felt good, that's how I saw it. I was an extremely creative kid, and any project I began got taken over by my brothers or my father, which made me believe I could never execute anything of any worth on my own - I am now a completely dependent 33-year-old adult with the emotional capacity of a 13-year-old!

I ordered 'Why love matters' just now, and hope it will shed some light not only on my patterns but also on how I can raise my two kids in a way that won't fuck them up too much... it's so easy to over-analyze though isn't it...?

-Liz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow...

Ok, I have so much to contribute but don't know where to start. I just finished 'Reinventing Your Life' (the Dutch version, so I might need help now and then with some English translations) and have started the exercises. When I try to go back to find those painful moments as a child, I get stuck. Compared to some, my childhood was a utopia - which is why I can't understand why I have the problems I do.

I am aware that I was treated as something extremely special by my mother. I am the youngest of three, the only girl. My mother didn't just love me, she loved me BEYOND, more than ANYTHING. I felt I barely did anything to receive so much love, I guess at one point I stopped believing her - if someone has to say they love you that much, they can't really mean it, can they? I wished she would treat me as just me, I was put on a pedestal, where I feel I am to this day, and all I want to do is get down.

Being the youngest, I was the joke of the family. My ideas were never taken seriously, I was patronized and ridiculed in a humorous way, which makes it even more painful to remember, since it has had a profound effect on me and my confidence in my abilities. So I found myself setting myself up for that ridicule - the attention I got was so much more rewarding than anything else, because it made my family members feel good about themselves. By putting me down, they felt good, that's how I saw it. I was an extremely creative kid, and any project I began got taken over by my brothers or my father, which made me believe I could never execute anything of any worth on my own - I am now a completely dependent 33-year-old adult with the emotional capacity of a 13-year-old!

I ordered 'Why love matters' just now, and hope it will shed some light not only on my patterns but also on how I can raise my two kids in a way that won't fuck them up too much... it's so easy to over-analyze though isn't it...?

-Liz

You may like to go back and read the Emotional Deprivation chapter, where it talks about how people with this schema tend to view their childhoods as utopian, yet when you look deeper you can see the holes.

Describing a utopian childhood, and then citing all the ways you didnt believe your mother really loved you, and the ways you felt sidelined and put down, dont really fit. This is the exact pattern of the emotional deprivation lifetrap. It also sounds a little like you blame yourself for feeling bad - as if you actually had a perfect life and just chose to feel bad and develop in illness. Feeling its all your fault also is typical of the emotional deprivation lifetrap / schema. It is also extremely typical of BPD and often comes on the back of ongoing invalidation of your emotions, needs and feelings, whilst simultaneously being told that you have a wonderful life that you shiould be grateful for. Guilt is the result, added to the emptiness, anxiety and depression that the emotional deprivation produces. There is a list in the book of exact needs that may not be met, and so 'types' of emotional deprivation that can result. Some of these are deprivation of empathy / validation of feelings, deprivation of protection, and deprivation of nurturance. I may have the list a bit wrong - bt you can go and see it in the emotional deprivation chapter. Note also that receiving praise and attention is not the same as receiving the empathy, validation and nurturance that you need - but if you never had the latter, you would not even know they are missing. This is why personality disorders, and especially trhe emotional deprivation schema, are so difficult to treat.

In the same book you will also read that for some folks, a therapist is needed to guide you through the process. Because the conditions that lead to personality disorder are so pervasive and subtle, very often the sufferer will be completely unaware of them. This is where guidance may be needed. Using the book alone id meant for folks who have one or two schemas / lifetraps. In BPD, we tend to have ALL of the schemas / lifetraps, and so using the book as an actual guided programme of recovery is not recommeneded. I normally suggest the book simply as a way of gaining more understanding. If you have nearly all the schemas in the book (and there are only 11 of the 18 schemas in there) then trying to work the exercises will be impossible. In Holland there are a number of schema providers, although I do not have contact details for them.

I get the feeling that Emotional Deprivation might be your strongest schema (that and defectiveness) and so it may be more worth your while focusing on these ones. Recognise also that if you strongly overcompensate for a schema, you may have filled the questionnaire and got a low score for it, even though it actually applies. Your description of a utopian childhood that somehow left you feeling unloved, ignored and humiliated would be an example of overcompensation - that is, acting the opposite of what is really true. The 'coping styles', of which overcompensation is one, are also described in the book and are very important to understand as they are used to hide pain from us. The problem is the pain leaks out in other ways.

Do you feel that people are trustworthy? I.e do you feel comfortable around people, or do you expect them to be mean to you or to make you look stupid?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I just read your diagnosis - its not BPD, its PTSD!

Its perhaps more likely that what you had was a deprivation of nurturance and protection. When challenges and traumas come along, feeling wide open and unprotected can lead to a chronic stress situation, and so a type of PTSD known as complex PTSD, or Chronic duress type disorders.

Did your parents hit you? Did anyone ever touch you or do anything sexually to you when you were a child? Or did the event that triggered your PTSD happen later in life? It has been observed that those that 'get' PTSD later in life as the result of a one off incident, also have a histroy of longer tem, smaller traumas or neglect. Also sometimes people that have been abused do not think of what they had as abuse. There was a series of questionnaires given to 200 dutch students, and in the first they were just asked "have you ever been sexually or physically abused". The response rate to that question was very low, of the order of 2%.

Then the question was made more specific - such as were you ever touched on your gentials by an adult in a sexual way? Were you ever hit or beaten as a child, perhaps regularly?

When the questions were made specific - that is, 'abuse' itself was properly described, the response rate shot up. People simply glossed over the painful past by labeling it 'not abuse'. As a child we normalise what happens to us - we need to do this to survive. But the holes remain, and so does the pain. The same principle applies to neglect (eg emotional deprivation) - most people that experienced neglect are totally unaware of it, until the nature of neglect is properly described. Many folks wont want to even accept it at this stage - the pain of doing so, and the things it would bring up, are too much for some people to face, so they bury it away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply!

You may like to go back and read the Emotional Deprivation chapter, where it talks about how people with this schema tend to view their childhoods as utopian, yet when you look deeper you can see the holes.

It's funny you mention that! When I took the first test, I got a really low score for Emotional Deprivation, but when I took the more specific test in the chapter itself, I got a much higher score! I was so surprised, but it did make much more sense when I read more, and did recognize a lot... It certainly brought up a bunch of painful childhood memories that I had never taken seriously before.

I get the feeling that Emotional Deprivation might be your strongest schema (that and defectiveness) and so it may be more worth your while focusing on these ones. Recognise also that if you strongly overcompensate for a schema, you may have filled the questionnaire and got a low score for it, even though it actually applies...

According to the test results in the book, my biggest lifetrap is extreme overcompensation/self-sacrifice ('Extreme Aanpassen' in Dutch - the second-to-last chapter). Maybe I am not willing to admit to the emotional deprivation one yet...

Do you feel that people are trustworthy? I.e do you feel comfortable around people, or do you expect them to be mean to you or to make you look stupid?

I feel extremely comfortable around other people. I am a singer, a performer, love social gatherings and always have something to say (usually bullshit, but I'm never scared about opening my mouth). I receive a lot of energy by being around other people - try to help out however I can. I am aware the performer in me is putting on a role for the benefit of others, but I do not feel vulnerable when I'm doing it. I did when I was a kid though. I protected my talent by hiding it from my family, I was so scared of it being ridiculed as well.

I find people are extremely trustworthy - that other people know better than I do what's best in any given situation. I put so much trust in other people, I constantly run the risk of being walked all over. And I usually am. But I never realize it till much later. It just doesn't register, so I miss every opportunity to stand up for myself. And then I justify my actions by convincing myself I deserved the criticism. I don't expect people to make me look stupid, but maybe subconsciously I set myself up for them to think that, thinking it makes me enduring or charming in some way, thinking it will make them feel good about themselves. I'm a martyr.

My psychologist recommended the book and I plan on asking her if there are some courses I could follow In Holland... I score quite high on only 6 of the lifetraps, but I still feel overwhelmed - it's a lot to handle on my own.

-Liz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply!

You may like to go back and read the Emotional Deprivation chapter, where it talks about how people with this schema tend to view their childhoods as utopian, yet when you look deeper you can see the holes.

It's funny you mention that! When I took the first test, I got a really low score for Emotional Deprivation, but when I took the more specific test in the chapter itself, I got a much higher score! I was so surprised, but it did make much more sense when I read more, and did recognize a lot... It certainly brought up a bunch of painful childhood memories that I had never taken seriously before.

I get the feeling that Emotional Deprivation might be your strongest schema (that and defectiveness) and so it may be more worth your while focusing on these ones. Recognise also that if you strongly overcompensate for a schema, you may have filled the questionnaire and got a low score for it, even though it actually applies...

According to the test results in the book, my biggest lifetrap is extreme overcompensation/self-sacrifice ('Extreme Aanpassen' in Dutch - the second-to-last chapter). Maybe I am not willing to admit to the emotional deprivation one yet...

Do you feel that people are trustworthy? I.e do you feel comfortable around people, or do you expect them to be mean to you or to make you look stupid?

I feel extremely comfortable around other people. I am a singer, a performer, love social gatherings and always have something to say (usually bullshit, but I'm never scared about opening my mouth). I receive a lot of energy by being around other people - try to help out however I can. I am aware the performer in me is putting on a role for the benefit of others, but I do not feel vulnerable when I'm doing it. I did when I was a kid though. I protected my talent by hiding it from my family, I was so scared of it being ridiculed as well.

I find people are extremely trustworthy - that other people know better than I do what's best in any given situation. I put so much trust in other people, I constantly run the risk of being walked all over. And I usually am. But I never realize it till much later. It just doesn't register, so I miss every opportunity to stand up for myself. And then I justify my actions by convincing myself I deserved the criticism. I don't expect people to make me look stupid, but maybe subconsciously I set myself up for them to think that, thinking it makes me enduring or charming in some way, thinking it will make them feel good about themselves. I'm a martyr.

My psychologist recommended the book and I plan on asking her if there are some courses I could follow In Holland... I score quite high on only 6 of the lifetraps, but I still feel overwhelmed - it's a lot to handle on my own.

-Liz

I think from reading that that perhaps subjugation came up for you too? Self sacrifice is part of it. It also sounds like you do 'the mask' thing - that perhaps you feel that when you are out, you put on an act, like a suit of armour, which makes you feel safe and protected? It would be interesting to see if there is a fear underneath that that the mask overcompensates for. This was very much my issue, and my mask stopped me from really relateing in a genuine way. All I could do was perform - if I performed well, I liked myself. If I 'failed', I hated myself.

What type of psychotherapy are you having? I think its super that your psych has suggested a bit of schema, and I think its EVEN MORE super that you have a therapist! :) How do you feel about him / her, truly deep down? Are you able to open up and reveal all the innermost stuff, or do you feel a little guarded or perhaps even that you have to perform for him / her? I often feel as though I am just trying to do what my therapist wants, as oppsoed to be 'me' and let out all thew shittiness, pain and anger. This is bad -we must show it all! :(

I would say that going back and reading the emotional deprivation chapter would be a good thing to do. Pay close attention to when feelings of sadness come up as you read, and if you are feeling brave, let yourself look at those memories that surfaced. These are the important ones for you. If you feel overwhelmed, then take it slowly. Try to let your therapist in more, so that he /she can support you through it. If you feel unable to let her in right now, then this is an issue for you that needs to be worked on. Therapy should be the 'new' model of healthy relationships, that makes sure that Liz gets what she needs, instead of always doing what she thinks other people want her to do! A self sacrifice schema would also have the effect of chronically depriving you of key emotional needs, because you never focus on yourself. You may even feel guilty when you think about 'having needs' at all. You shouldnt, and you deserve just as good treatment, and to receivem, as anyone else. However, the opposite may feel like so much a part of you that its hard to battle. That is the nature of schemas - they go deep down and have no words attached - they are just a feeling that you should be or behave a certain way, and that you are only meant to be treated a certain way.

Hugs and hope

Rossie the hairy one

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think from reading that that perhaps subjugation came up for you too? Self sacrifice is part of it. It also sounds like you do 'the mask' thing - that perhaps you feel that when you are out, you put on an act, like a suit of armour, which makes you feel safe and protected? It would be interesting to see if there is a fear underneath that that the mask overcompensates for. This was very much my issue, and my mask stopped me from really relateing in a genuine way. All I could do was perform - if I performed well, I liked myself. If I 'failed', I hated myself.

OH yes absolutely. I was so submissive as a kid, especially with my brother. The mask thing, definitely. I think there is enormous fear under the mask - fear of being seen for who I truly am. I am scared to death of who I am truly am.

What type of psychotherapy are you having? I think its super that your psych has suggested a bit of schema, and I think its EVEN MORE super that you have a therapist! :) How do you feel about him / her, truly deep down? Are you able to open up and reveal all the innermost stuff, or do you feel a little guarded or perhaps even that you have to perform for him / her? I often feel as though I am just trying to do what my therapist wants, as oppsoed to be 'me' and let out all thew shittiness, pain and anger. This is bad -we must show it all! :(

I started seeing my therapist when I was first diagnosed with PTSD way back in '03. Then I considered myself 'cured', went my merry way, and came crawling back to her about a year and a half ago. I'm so lucky to have found her, we really click. We also have the sessions in English, which is super important to me. Although I speak fluent Dutch, I always fall back on my native language when it comes to matters of the heart. ;)

I have enormous faith in her, but have spent the better part of a year lying to her as well. She sees through me, which is embarrassing, and she told me I needed to be genuine and straight about how I felt. I'd nod and agree and go home and continue doing exactly what I was doing which was playing the role(s).

She introduced me to Mindfulness and meditation, but I don't think I was ready for it yet. She is so patient with me.

I would say that going back and reading the emotional deprivation chapter would be a good thing to do. Pay close attention to when feelings of sadness come up, and if you are feeling brave, let yourself look at those memories that surfaced. These are the important ones for you. If you feel overwhelmed, then take it slowly. Try to let your therapist in more, so that he /she can support you through it. If you feel unable to let her in right now, then this is an issue for you that needs to be worked on. Therapy should be the 'new' model of healthy relationships, that makes sure that Liz gets what she needs, instead of always doing what she thinks other people want her to do! A self sacrifice schema would also have the effect of chronically depriving you of key emotional needs, because you never focus on yourself. You may even feel guilty when you think about 'having needs' at all. You shouldnt, and you deserve just as good treatment, and to receivem, as anyone else. However, the opposite may feel like so much a part of you that its hard to battle. That is the nature of schemas - they go deep down and have no words attached - they are just a feeling that you should be or behave a certain way, and that you should be trated a certain way.

Ugh. I am so freaked out about confronting all that painful shit... I have been sweeping stuff under the carpet for so long, there's this huge massive lump now that I can't even walk around anymore and HAVE to look at it. I know I do. The book will help guide me, I think.

I do feel guilty about giving myself too much attention - in fact I consider any attention at all too much attention... Learning how to engage in healthy equal relationships is an exciting prospect to me. I am also relieved I don't HAVE to act anymore. I just have to find out HOW not to.

This place is going to be invaluable, I can see that already.

Thankyou.

hugs and hope right back at ya.

- Liz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Liz

Have you met the user here called Pynn? She is lovely - and also Dutch! :)

I think from reading what you have said, that you are braver than you think! Just in that one post you have admitted a lot, and I think thats awesome. You have the ability to look much further into yourself than you give yourself credit for :)

If you have been in therapy on and off since 03, can I guess that you are having psychodynamic or perhaps analytical therapy? Schemas mix of emotional and behavioural elements may work as an execllent compliment to it. I think its great that you feel your therapist has patience, and I know that it feels scary to open up and really let her see everything. Many folks here have said the same thing - that deep down, they fear that 'the real them' will be seen and then we will be rejected. We feel like we must hide whats really down there, and its never the 'pity' elements that we want to hide. For example, its kind of easier to say "oh I feel ugly, I am boring, I always screw things up, Im useless". These are what I call the pity elements. The bits we dont want people to see tend to be our anger, our needs, and the things that we are most ashamed of. It tends to be these that we fear revealing - yet in a truly understanding and nurturing relationship, it is actually OK to show these parts of ourselves. In fact, its essential. Right now I know that is impossible to belive, but its the stage you need to get to. That part of you that you are afraid to show, is the one that needs to come out! Recovery is not eliminating that part - its INTEGRATING that part by at last letting it out, let it be seen. If you try to shut it away in the cupboard it just gets angrier and more powerful. Some folks talk about it as our 'shadow' side, and it needs to be brought into the light. It cant, and should not, be eliminated - but for those of us with emotional difficulties we often belive that if we can only be perfect, and totally eliminate our shadow, that we will be happy. This is wrong - our shadow is only unacceptable to US, and those from our pasts that taght us to hide it. The aim for us now is to find those people that accept our light AND our shadow - that are willing to accept the darker parts of us (just as they have darker parts) as well as wanting to take the good parts of us.

All of this essentially means looking at who we really are, and realising that who we are is ok - even the stuff buried away. It is in fact the very act of hiding it that turns it into a monster - like hiding away an ugly cousin because he is a bit odd and smells :( He will only get odder and smellier if we leave him in there!

Mindfulness can be helpful in letting us spot when we go into a 'mask' and in tracking our reactions and emotions. It helps us to accept them, and sit with them, instead of trying to eliminate or change them. Trying to get rid of them makes them more intense - mindfulness just lets them be, and actually helps them to subside and become an accepted, in fact welcomed, part of us. The problem is not having those emotions or feelings, but in fact that we disown them, reject them and so reject half of ourselves. Personality disorder is an extreme version of this, where entire parts of our self becomes locked away, with only the thin mask left on top.

Facing the hard stuff inside is a destination, and getting better is a journey. Other things may need to happen before you can get to this stage - and I think the first thing would be gradually letting the truth out with your therapist. Start with little things, and then build up to the bigger things. What you need is to see that its SAFE to do this - right now it may feel scary to actually let it out because you fear you will be rejected or punished, or made to feel guilty. By letting little bits of yourself out, and seeing that your therapist responds well, gradually you can trust that she is truly there for you. She will become more 'real' for you. Once you reach this stage, it becomes far easier to really explore the painful parts, because you know you will be supported, believed and accepted.

Im really glad you feel like you have found a positive place! The fact that you are looking forward to a new kind of relationship is an excellent indicator that you will find them - first comes the desire, then the motivation, then the reality :D

Ross

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Liz

Have you met the user here called Pynn? She is lovely - and also Dutch! :)

No! But I will go look for her!! :)

I can't tell you how much this is helping me - I am so lucky I found this place at such an early stage in my 'dive into the lake of me'!!! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Liz

Have you met the user here called Pynn? She is lovely - and also Dutch! :)

No! But I will go look for her!! :)

I can't tell you how much this is helping me - I am so lucky I found this place at such an early stage in my 'dive into the lake of me'!!! :)

Splashy splash splash whoo! Swimming is fun huh? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you soo much for this post I often feel like I dont have a reason to be the way I am which makes me feel more invalidated. I am having a bad time and reading this made me feel a bit better

Yay! Glad it helps a little :)

I think its also worth noting that A LOT of people on this site feel that they dont have a reason to be how they are - I would go so far as to say that with BPD it is perhaps a common thread, a double whammy of having a lot of struggles but at the same time feeling you have no right no recognise them as struggles, or even to blame yourself.

Seeing as "an invalidating environment" seems to be a very core experience for those with BPD, it makes total sense that we would have grown up with a tendency to invalidate ourselves. Can you see what a powerful vicious circle that is? Invalidation makes us ill, and then we actually continue to invalidate ourselves. Its like having a vial of flu virus that we continually reinject into our veins just as we begin to do something to overcome it.

Reading this you may even STILL Hve that sneaking "well, maybe for others but not for me" feeling. I have it too! The fact that we look at others and go "well maybe for him but not for me", and the other guy is thinking the same thing, should probably tell us a thing or two about BPD. Invalidation is one of the big cogs that drive the system :( That means that finding a source of validation should be a priority in our lives, because we cannot so it for ourselves if we have never been shown how. The other traits of BPD - such as the feeling that we should not show others our emotions and that we "must get over it on our own" are two of the great barriers to actually letting thaose other sources of validation in. The nature of our illness makes us behave in ways that actually stop us from getting validation in our relationships. We choose invalidating people. Our emotions come out of us in fits and starts because we have choked them away for years, and to others they seem over-the-top. Its a cycle, and whats more we feel guilty for ever showing any emotion in the first place. Yet another barrier is the way that, in the absence of what we truly need, we find surrgates to take its place. Drugs, alcohol, sex, spending. All of these things are the body CRAVING emotional sustenance bu, never having had what it truly needs, it finds other things that momentarily fill the hole. But they are surrogates, and like snacking on sickly sweets and cakes, it leaves us feeling bloated and ashamed instead of calm and fulfilled.

We need to learn that its ok to show emotion - including anger and vulnerability.

We need to learn that its ok to HAVE emotion.

We need to learn that the rest of the world wants and is entitled to having people listen, validate and support them, and so are we

We need to learn that this experience at first will lead to extreme guilt feelings, and even the sensation of doing something banned or alien - that is our conditioning. It FEELS right, but it is not.

We need to learn that some people will readily allow us to do this, and will readily give support and validation.

We need to see how we tend to choose people who do not.

Gradualy, steadily and over a lot of time, we need to make gradual changes to who we choose, what we express, what we let in and how we treat ourselves for doing these things.

The rest of the population is happy because they have support from others. Support, validation, empathy, understanding - are HUMAN GIVENS, we all need them and are entitled to them. However in BPD, we have had the ultimate con job pulled on us. Not only have we never received these things and so do not even realise they are missing, but we also feel in our guts that any attempt to get them is criminal.

Breaking that cycle is incredibly hard and will feel like you have just stepped into zero gravity - it will be alien, it will be weird, and it will be frightening. But once we start to get these things, our BODIES recognise it, even if we dont. Just like the body will make you crave a food you need even though you dont realise you need it, so will it respond to the right emotional inputs even though you didnt realise they were missing. It is like a jigsaw piece - when the right one comes along it clicks in place like nothing else can.

The best way to start to make that change is in therapy, where the shame, fear, anger and mistrust can be better handled by someone who knows what the experience of being introduced to emotions you have never felt is like, and how it needs to be directed. Like someone who has been severely dehydrated, you cannot simply give them gallons of water, because their body will reject it. The same is true of emotions - it takes time - a lot of time, to adjust to the new sensations. You may want to run away from it. You may resent it. It may bring up emotions that you could not have imagined would come up, and you may even want to run from these too.

Thats why it will never happen quickly. But with time the body becomes acclimatised, and eventually cannot see how life went on without it beforehand. The reason so many people are stuck is because very few therapists mention this, very few people give it freely outside of close relationships, and because as BPD sufferers we may not even realise these things ever existed.

Thank you so much for this entire thread, and this post in particular. I really needed this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have only been here briefly, quite a while ago, but now I need to return and have just read all of this thread. Just want to share a few thoughts:

I struggle regularly with the guilt of having a "great life" with the reality of having it actually be quite lonely and debilitating. Finally I have even come to see it as a strength that I do know that what is, is not and was never okay. No one else wants to "go there", EVER. To quote: "IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!" Unconditional invalidation.

It has been such a way of life that it makes me really wonder how very much of this must go on all of the time, and how the truly sensitive ones are the people who see and feel this. As much as the hypersensitivity almost kills me sometimes, I am noticing lately that these insensitive cold hearted and brusque idiots in my life are NOT what I want to be, and as I write this my goal is to make their influences in my life minimal to the max.

Just recently I caved in to some generosity of forgiveness over the holidays, and within seconds felt like crap again. Because ultimately I should not be doing that. I need to control my feelings and not put them back out there. Giving any more time of my life to this history of invalidation is just plain WRONG.

Nature/ Nurture? Whatever.. but I do know that given what I got, I WAS able to break the chain with my own kids, so that says a LOT, and it required effort and time and choices I made. But you know what? To me.. these were GIVENS....I HAVE NO IDEA how you can parent a child and not have these basic thingds as givens! Yet, for my mother, none of them were there. 4 children, 10 grandchildren, and she still chooses to live in her own self centered world of denial. People say "Oh, but she's sick and old", well, gee, that's what happens to old and sick people.

I GET that she must have had a sucky life to be this way, but you know what? SO DID I! But I made choices for my kids so that I wouldn't do that to them, I took control, and though it wasn;t alwasy easy, at least I DID something. Mom.. well, she is pathetic. I tried to be nice last week, but after a minute on the phone I felt sick inside, so that ends that communication for a while.

I should forgive? But wait: 40 plus years of being sad lonely depressed suspicious angry hurt uncomfortable scared self loathing never feeling ok or good enough or listened to or wanted or needed or respected or validated in any way.. yeah, ok, thanks mom! Merry f! xmas!

Some might be saying.. oh, but it isn't all of her fault. Well, oh well.. what to say to that. It's even LESS my fault. I think it is AMAZING that I have turned out the way I have.. overcome so many odds, and I am actually a caring and loving and sensitive woman, believe it or not! But this has nothing to do with her!

Oh my, I am rambling now, sorry. One more thing about this nature thing: my sister is 3 years older, and grew up sort of the same. I was always "accused" of being too sensitive. Gee, I cried as a baby? News flash!!!! Babies cry!!! Pick them up.. hello???? Instead I just got labled. You mean I kept crying when I was ignored?? What the heck?

My sister is now in one way a sensitive woman, yet she has built this HUGE WALL around her which makes her impossible to get close to. She thinks I overreact to everything (thanks for the validation!) and I think she is quite cold and insensitive. We are very different personalities, but both suffer from the sAME neglect/abuse.

Well thankfor listening to me ramble, if any of you are still there.

I want to add one more thing but will add another post:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was just wondering.. for those of you who can accept that your angst etc.. is NOT all of your doing:

how do you put up with other people who either deny or won't even give you the respect of understanding of where you are coming from?

Don't you just sometimes want to walk away from everyone, even though you can't? :) I don't expect everyone in my life to understand me, but I am really tiring of people who will not look at their OWN lives and their OWN issues, and instead try to make it all come back to ME.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

how do you put up with other people who either deny or won't even give you the respect of understanding of where you are coming from?

I live with someone who does that, and denies his own problems, day ater day after day

How?

hmmmmmmmm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I am concerned I had an invalidating childhood, and because humans have a tendency to repeat their pasts, I went on choosing invalidating people around me. I also felt guilty sharing any feelings, and so I didnt because even if someone was nice I would feel guilty.

Through therapy I have learned that its ok to tell someone how I feel and be heard, and be given that attention. I have learned that the people I had at that point in my life were all the same because I had chosen them - friends, girlfriends, the people I gravitated to at work. Gradually I am choosing new people who will validate and give these things that I was missing. Just because my emotions are trained to respond a certain way now, doesnt mean they always will, and I am already seeing changes.

However I would not have belived that change was possible until I began to see what my therapist was talking about with emotional needs, and actually FELT what had been missing all my life. I realised that until someone shows you an alternate reality, you are convinced that the one youre in is the only possible one.

Now I have seen the other side, I no longer believe that I am destined to stay stuck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that you make an excellent point. Changing your life for the better can be so unfamiliar and new, and you need to push to make it happen. Then it can take time to accept, but is always worth it.

The secret is to recognize the people and relationships that indeed are good for you, but not fall into the trap of going overboard to make yourself vulnerable. It is easy to get wrapped up in a new relationship, but in my case I need to learn to go slowly and watch myself.

Just recently I had a job with a woman (my boss) who I became great friends with, or so I thought. I can't tell you how validated I felt by the whole thing. Then it all blew up in my face, and I was devastated.

In talking with my therapist I am really understanding why all of this happened, how I let myself be used to feel good about myself, and how that eventually backfired. It is important to not depend on one person or one situation, and in fact it is important to really look out for yourself and BELIEVE that you indeed deserve more.

I went through this awful "oh what is wrong with me? she doesn't like me!" response, when her behaviors had been completely inappropriate.

This year I am determined to go back to "the other side", since I know what it is like, and I want to feel good like that again. I KNOW what I have been missing, and I want to have it for real. I just need to spread my search around and find a balance, and keep remembering that I have much to give.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgiveness....that is a zen koan...

My dad had a similar temperament to me, and like your mom, Jenga, committed atrocities of invalidation. Why am I not like him, and why should I forgive him?

He died alone in a motel in Barstow. That's the best possible counter-example to forgiveness that I have. Just as I don't want to be like him in my parenting, I don't want to be like him in his cosmology of hatred. He was very philosophical and would hold forth about Schopenhauer and others who believed humankind was innately evil and selfish. He propagandized me to the point of my real suicide attempt at 16, when I o.d.'ed on my mom's prescriptions and fell into a coma. Then I had a mystical experience: there was no God, all was black and empty, death is blissful, absolute nothingness--and I too was made out of this black emptiness. Whenever I would peel the onion of who i was and why i was here, I would come back to that black hole at my core. "You're nobody and nothing."

So anyhow, my dad died, and I had taken a different path with my hypersensitive temperament-abused into - mental disorder. A path of self-improvement and enlightenment. Luckily for me, my materialism was challenged and replaced with a faith in the Universe, the best gift in my life, a sense of purpose. I was shown by my best friend and spiritual mentor that I am a being of white light, immortal, a necessary fractal of the Universe. And then I saw that I was haunted by my father. I had never believed in ghosts before, but his appeared in my room, wearing a scary black robe and coming in from the door, across the room, then up over me in bed in my face. My husband woke to my screaming, saw the spectre too, right over me in my face going boogity-boogity. My husband sat bolt upright and used his authority voice to yell, "get the fuck outta here!" and then it went away.

I now know that ending your life without forgiveness traps you even after death to go boogity-boogity to those we hate so jealously. It's even more pathetic than dying alone, it's spending eternity alone! To be so bad-spirited as to come back as a bad spirit is to be the saddest loser in the world. In that moment of pathos, I see that I am better than that. That I can finally feel compassion for my tormentor and earnestly hope he finds and heads toward the light.

And then his mother, my grandmother, died a couple of weeks ago. She was bled dry financially by my dad's sister. So there this proud old woman was, in the antiseptic hospital, another way of being alone, and the only family around her were the leeches rubbing their hands together in anticipation of getting the last crumbs of her estate. That is so tragic, like something in Shakespeare, and it made me cry. What could have made her so ruthless and raise such ruthless children? I remember dimly stories she told of the Depression, and my heart fills up with compassion. Things were different when she was a girl, and I can only imagine what her childhood was like. Validation? My ass! They had no such concepts back then. It was children are to be seen not heard, and spare the rod spoil the child.

The point is, how do I want to spend my life? Who do I want to invest my time in? Every moment, with every blink of my eye, I am choosing, I am Becoming. There is no past, there is no future, there is only NOW. My dad did the best he could, even though that was catastrophically bad. I forgive him because his mama was like some kind of barbara bush figure, how horrid! And I forgive my grandma for being a barbara bush type figure, because it must have taken severe experiences for her to become that way. Now, that doesn't mean I have to place myself in harm's way with the remaining relatives that are toxic. I can love them from afar, and by love them, I don't mean have pleasant thoughts about who they are. Instead, I have hope for them that they will somehow discover the truth of Love and Forgiveness before it's too late, and they too die alone surrounded by greed or animosity.

Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Dad and Grandma are already dead, what use is my forgiveness now? Well, hopefully it speeds them on their way to the light, but really its about speeding me on my OWN way to the light. I want to be that person, that balanced and serene one, that can calmly observe, fully experience, but refrain from acting out, instead use the experience for my greater wisdom.

Someone on the radio always says, "The problem with resentment is, it's like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

Love and light,

Catspiracy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All that being said, I'm in a happy frame of mind today, so that's the good side of me talking. A couple of days ago, I was the Bad Mother, reading every story and seeing how I am causing my kids to go nuts like me, LOL!

And that's where I see that I have to forgive MYSELF. and I have to cross my fingers and hope that my stepdaughter especially, will forgive me for the times I invalidated her unwittingly. I hope she'll have a big enough heart to forgive me, I did my very best and she truly is a difficult child, already abused before she came to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was physically and emotionally abused by my mother but the event that gave me BPD was witnessing my sister falling from a horse and breaking her neck when I was 10 years old. She is quadraplegic. I wouldn't have BPD if it weren't for witnessing this accident.

nuclearwinter x

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was just wondering.. for those of you who can accept that your angst etc.. is NOT all of your doing:

how do you put up with other people who either deny or won't even give you the respect of understanding of where you are coming from?

Don't you just sometimes want to walk away from everyone, even though you can't? :) I don't expect everyone in my life to understand me, but I am really tiring of people who will not look at their OWN lives and their OWN issues, and instead try to make it all come back to ME.

OMG, my mother is in total denial there is anything wrong with me at ALL, and it makes me furious. But I only ever gave her the impression everything was fine and I was the happiest most 'glass-is-half-full'-iest person in the world. I am finally beginning to show her the real me, and I am getting exactly the reaction I feared: she doesn't like it. I guess it will just take time for us both to get used to it, another one of those 'easier said than done' situations. My marriage crisis only started a couple months ago, and seeing as no one in my family has EVER been divorced, it makes me even more shameful that I might be the first one... My husband is the one who seems to be the most understanding of anyone else in my life, which gives me hope he might just stiick it out with me after all...

-Liz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there is any such thing as a "whole biological theory" on mental health.

Like you are saying there are bits and pieces that don't hang together as well as people who want to 100% ignore nurture - and ongoing self nurture and peer nurture in adult life - sometimes make out.

How many other people had a brain scan?

How many other people with "atrophied cerebellum" happened to find life's circumstances heavy enough going to become depressed over them (in my case due to being too slow to be assertive)?

Anyone else find encephalitis a depressing illness?

Ever tried to make a cake with only flour? Maybe the biology is the egg that holds the nurture thing together - pretty obvious to me - I always knew I wasn't a one two or even just three dimensional being.

Also - Hummm - I identify with the phrase colossal con trick.

Also - this throws up interesting implications on the effectiveness and justifiablilty - oh and ethics - of the ''don't believe a word the patient says they are insane and we're not'' school of psychiatry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...