"but I Wasnt Abused"

[hummm_mabbe]

Some baies will even stop crying altogether if they learn that, when they cry, no one comes. This can be observed in babies a few weeks old.

Attachment theory takes these attitudes and shows how they transfer onto the child,m and then the adult. You may like to google John Bowlby and his work and look at "the attchment styles" and perhaps even see if you can identify your own.

My parents said i never cried much as a baby, i was good baby... i didnt suck a dummy, i didnt need soothing. maybe it looked like a sign that i was going to do well... look at me now...

i tried identifying my attachment style but there is no way i'm going ask my parents about what i was like as a baby, there some things i dont want to know.

Yes this is something that it is fascinating to me. Growing up, I was always told what a 'good baby' I was. I cried a normal amount. My older sister screamed and screamed and kept my parents awake all night, demanded more attention etc etc. Yet somehow when I got to age 3 or 4, I was being told "you are too sensitive, youve always been like this". Now mum, which is it? Was I always good, or always sentiive?

When I heard my Dad say "well you were always too sensitive", I asked him, "do you think I was born that way" and he said yes. Then I said "out of me and my sister, who cried the most? Who kept you awake at night the most? Who was the most demanding?" and he stopped. "Your sister". He realised what he had said. I was not a sensitive baby, but I BECAME a sensitive toddler. Why?

My mum always used to say to me "you never smiled when you were a baby". My dad said "you did smile as a baby, well you smiled at me anyway". So, I didnt smile at my MUM, but I did smile. Why didnt I smile at my mum? Well, throughout life I have always been extremely ambivalent about my mum. I needed her, but she always made me feel worse - guilty, afraid, angry. She could never soothe me or listen to me because her own issues were always at the forefront of her mind. My sister and my dad say the same things about her. Now, if she was like this when I was old enough to remember (age 4) am I really to be expected to belive that she was so different only a couple of years before? When I then read the writing of John Bowlby that talks about how babies react to mothers who are alternately emotionally distant and then suddenly overly-attentive, the baby is seen to not smile at mum, and to not respond to her or to respond in a mixed (ambivalent attachment) way. I did not need to ask what I was like as a baby because my mum would tell me at every opportiuny, even making me feel guilty for not deigning to smile at her when I was 1 year old.

As the window for the most fundamental emotional foundations is between 0-3, it makes perfect sense that you can be a 'good' baby and then become a 'sensitive' toddler, who goes on to become a sensitive, or even BPD, adult.

Its very difficult to get all the two decades of study done by Bowlby - which is SO important to understanding the emotional orogins of personality disorder - into a single post. If you want to know more, read "The making and breaking of affectional bonds" by John Bowlby.

To answer your question on Post Natal depression - YES - Bowlby and many attachment researchers since have shown a strong link between PND and the development of attachment disorders. It may not be what you WANT to hear, but the research s nontheless out there and clinically validated. I hope this does not make you too angry - I realise that what I am writing here is completely radioactive and right at the most sensitive core of who we are - but that is precisely why i think its so important to know.

[hummm_mabbe]

one of my therapists told me that even those first few weeks are critical to developing a strong sense of self. He said that not forming a bond with a parent in the first 3 months of life can cause abandonement issues later in life. That's why a lot of adoptees end up in therapy, along with kids who's mothers had post natal depression.

Thats quite interesting you say that as when my daughter was born i had really bad postnatal depression. My daughter is now 12 and for years she has been very difficult and is very emotional and so much like me..........

I am trying to sort out counselling for her.

I have always felt that i have messed up her life.

The fact that you are able to question what you may have done wrong - and most importantly - what you have done WELL - is a strong indicator that you will help your daughter to overcome any struggles she has. You know what it is to hurt and feel lost and confused, and so you are sypathetic to what she feels. Work through your own issues of self-blame with a counsellor yourself so that you can be stronger for your daughter. Walker is right - you could not HELP PND, it just happened.

The fact that you are willing to help your daughter in counselling means that you are not simply trying to sweep her difficulties under the rug. When you read the testimonies of BPD sufferes who were always told that they were attention seeking, making it up, or just fatally flawed due to their genes, the fact that you are willing to have an open mind and a supportive attitude to your daughter means that she is far more likely to come out the other side. Your ability to listen to and validate her feelings will also enormously strengthen the bond you two have. If you wanted to ignore her, you could invalidate and tell her that her emotions are silly, or that she shouldnt feel that way. Because you know how it feels, you will tell her that her feelings are totally understandable and that she is doing the best she can considering how she feels. This sets you both up for a mutually respectful and supportive, healthy relationship.

You have the least reason to blame yourself, and whats more you are taking positive action. I wish my mother would do the same.

[wordsmithy]

i'm not angry, on the contrary i finding this pretty good reading.

my parents said that before i was a teenager i was happy, extroverted, friendly etc.

for as long as i can remember i have been teased for being too sensitive by other school children (and teachers even), i have been anxious and even slightly ocd since very young, i have always found it hard to make friends, i never talked to people outside my family and my one very short-lived close friend... looking back i can see i was a chronically scared kid who was very good at looking happy on the outside.

and to think, up until recently, i thought i was fine until i was 16.

i think out parents find sketchy eveidence to support things that they want to believe. that perhaps their view of our childhood is distorted to fit in with whatever they need to believe.

thanks for the book recomendation, i've been looking for somewhere to start reading on developmental psychology.

[hummm_mabbe]

i'm not angry, on the contrary i finding this pretty good reading.

my parents said that before i was a teenager i was happy, extroverted, friendly etc.

for as long as i can remember i have been teased for being too sensitive by other school children (and teachers even), i have been anxious and even slightly ocd since very young, i have always found it hard to make friends, i never talked to people outside my family and my one very short-lived close friend... looking back i can see i was a chronically scared kid who was very good at looking happy on the outside.

and to think, up until recently, i thought i was fine until i was 16.

i think out parents find sketchy eveidence to support things that they want to believe. that perhaps their view of our childhood is distorted to fit in with whatever they need to believe.

thanks for the book recomendation, i've been looking for somewhere to start reading on developmental psychology.

Quite often a child will reach an equilibirum within the family and 'tick over', perhaps even within an overprotective environment which, although it feels safe, may in fact be emotionally suffocating. When he hits the real world in later teens, this is the time that problems can seem to explode, although they had in fact been lying in wait.

Given this, I would also recommend the book "Reinventing Your Life" by Klosko and Young, The title makes it sound a bit too self-helpie, but in fact it is a distillation of some of the key concepts of schema therapy - a therapy which was actually originally desgined solely to treat BPD and has been shown in two (admittedly small) studies to be extremely effective. I would particularly suggest that you buy the book and read the chapters called "Emotional Deprivation Lifetrap", "Vulnerability Lifetrap", "Subjugation Lifetrap" and "Social Exclusion Lifetrap" as they feed into what you have said about your teen years. For me the book was shockingly eye opening. Do you have an actual BPD dx right now? If not, there are other possibilites for your struggles which the book can help with. I am having Schema Therapy (the type especially for BPD - there are 2 varieties) and feel I am making good progress.

The book can be overwhelming for BPD sufferers because we will see ourselves in every lifetrap, but the book does offer some incredible insight and perhaps even understanding that you have been searching for all your life. If you want to add to the child development part, an essential book IMO is "Why love matters" by Sue Gerhardt.

You should be able to pick all these up cheap via amazon used and new.

[walker]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

My brother (older) cried for his first year - and didnt sleep through the night - it took a year to discover the cause was an undiagnosed hernia

I didnt!!!!

So I can only assume that I was left, and not 'made a fuss of'

Fed every 4 hours, and that was how it was, then. - My mother actually criticised me for carrying my babies round, and not leaving them to cry.

I became an impatient toddler, who would throw cups and plates as soon as they were empty

My brother grew up 'quietly' , I got louder

He went his own way

I tried and continually failed

[hummm_mabbe]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

My brother (older) cried for his first year - and didnt sleep through the night - it took a year to discover the cause was an undiagnosed hernia

I didnt!!!!

So I can only assume that I was left, and not 'made a fuss of'

Fed every 4 hours, and that was how it was, then. - My mother actually criticised me for carrying my babies round, and not leaving them to cry.

I became an impatient toddler, who would throw cups and plates as soon as they were empty

My brother grew up 'quietly' , I got louder

He went his own way

I tried and continually failed

Again, I think that reading the Sue Gerhardt book would be helpful to you. "Why Love Matters"- you can pick iy up for a couple quid on amazon. What you describe is pretty much classic. My sis was the loud one. Wrecked their sleep. By the time I was born, were they perhaps less likely to respond, because a nurse somewhere told them that you should leave them to cry? "You'll turn them into a little tyrant if you give them too much attention". Sounds common sense - unfortunately, the evidence doesnt back it up. In fact, LEAVING or neglecting a childs cries is what can cause them to become angry and demanding ("sometimes mummy helps me .. but sometimes when I am really hurting, she ignores me ... I feel scared. And right now even though this is a small thing, mummy is ignoring me again ... WHY ARE YOU IGNORING ME MUMMY? IM SCARED YOU WILL DO THIS ALWAYS!!"). An idea that, from what you have just said about your toddlerhood T, is borne out by experience.

Current thinking is that leaving a baby to cry is one of the worst things you can do. This will not be a popular view with mothers that have done this, but emotions such as offence and anger make no difference to the facts. That is why this is such a hotly contested area - because of peoples FEELINGS - not because of a lack of scientific study.

The GOOD thing is, mistakes can be rectified, damage can be healed. But it cannot be healed if people refuse to accept what is right before their eyes. Sweeping it all back under the rug just leaves it to fester and multiply. This is what, as a culture, i think is currently the norm. The reason I write so passionately about it is because I want that to change, so that less and less people get the place where they hurt in the first place. But that means forcing the current generation to ask some painful, hard questions.

[walker]

something I have wondered about for a long time

as a little girl - hiding behind cushions whenever I was crying, so my dad - or brother - wouldnt see me

It is to be honest - something of a family joke

'dont look at me' - still gets mentioned

Mum doesnt think it was when I was very tiny - and I certainly remember it clearly

I wonder if it is connected with that fateful hospital admission - I dont know

but I dont like hub seeing me cry - as he always says 'whats the matter with your face?'

but what is REALLY weird

is that away from my family - I find it far easier to cry in front of men - and feel that women will be so judgmental that I try to hide it

NOW

I would rather anyone in the world sees me cry - but NOT my parents, my husband and my children ( or his family - or my more distant family )

[hummm_mabbe]

something I have wondered about for a long time

as a little girl - hiding behind cushions whenever I was crying, so my dad - or brother - wouldnt see me

It is to be honest - something of a family joke

'dont look at me' - still gets mentioned

Mum doesnt think it was when I was very tiny - and I certainly remember it clearly

I wonder if it is connected with that fateful hospital admission - I dont know

but I dont like hub seeing me cry - as he always says 'whats the matter with your face?'

but what is REALLY weird

is that away from my family - I find it far easier to cry in front of men - and feel that women will be so judgmental that I try to hide it

NOW

I would rather anyone in the world sees me cry - but NOT my parents, my husband and my children ( or his family - or my more distant family )

Yes, you bury and stuff your most core experience - emotions - because you heard again and again that they were shameful. You married a man with the same opinion. This doesnt mean the world agrees - it just means that those inside your world agree. It is the common BPD experience - "I am bad, My emotions are bad. Its my fault".

You wre emotionally attached to your parents. You werent meant to cry in front of them. You are emotionally attached to your hudband and your kids, and you cannot, or are not meant to, cry in front of them. With other people it seems you can cry in front of them. The key point is - you are not so emotionally attached and involved with them as family. Your closest allies and supporters should be those you are the closest and most involved with emotionally - and yet you have been conditioned to hide the core of yourself from precisely those people.

Is it any wonder that you feel you are free-falling through life?

[wordsmithy]

woah... sounds like a lot of reading. given i have more of a love of buying books than reading them... anyway sorry. quite a lot for one morning. time, we have plenty of it...

sorry i think i was a bit unclear with my post i mean to say my parents thought i was fine until i was 16, but i now know i was messed up since my earliest meories of everyday life, but they didnt notice because i was brilliant at appearing happy. so good i convinced myself that nothing triggered the past five years of absolute... bleh.

so it didnt all start when i was teen, which might support bowlby's theory that it goes far far back. hm... *strokes beard*...

i was diagnosed with bpd by a psychiatrist who was in charge of my treatment when i was 19.

but i, amongst a few of psychiatrists i see now, see the label... well, it would make things worse to say that i have bpd, because once you're stuck with that one it tends to stick. they dont dispute the diagnosis but they havent planted it firmly on me either.

i go to a day unit designed especially for bpd, so that would show even if no one can tell me to my face i have bpd, i still have quite a lot of severe bpd symptoms to warrant treatment for bpd.

god, that was so unclear.... lol

[walker]

Your closest allies and supporters should be those you are the closest and most involved with emotionally - and yet you have been conditioned to hide the core of yourself from precisely those people

that is why I still havent been able to tell my husband about BPD

why I spend so much time fighting, arguing and denying it

I am frightened of becoming emotionally dependent on him - but of course - it is already too bloody late

i desperately want to get out - get away - but cannot envisage ever doing so -

my avatar expresses how i feel about the trap i am in - except the hands are gripping tightly and both holding me together - AND holding all the shit inside - too

[hummm_mabbe]

woah... sounds like a lot of reading. given i have more of a love of buying books than reading them... anyway sorry. quite a lot for one morning. time, we have plenty of it...

sorry i think i was a bit unclear with my post i mean to say my parents thought i was fine until i was 16, but i now know i was messed up since my earliest meories of everyday life, but they didnt notice because i was brilliant at appearing happy. so good i convinced myself that nothing triggered the past five years of absolute... bleh.

so it didnt all start when i was teen, which might support bowlby's theory that it goes far far back. hm... *strokes beard*...

i was diagnosed with bpd by a psychiatrist who was in charge of my treatment when i was 19.

but i, amongst a few of psychiatrists i see now, see the label... well, it would make things worse to say that i have bpd, because once you're stuck with that one it tends to stick. they dont dispute the diagnosis but they havent planted it firmly on me either.

i go to a day unit designed especially for bpd, so that would show even if no one can tell me to my face i have bpd, i still have quite a lot of severe bpd symptoms to warrant treatment for bpd.

god, that was so unclear.... lol

BPD is an engine for psychological research right now. There are many camps, each with a different view. Up until a decade or so ago, Psychiatry claimed that BPD was untreatable, because their drugs did not work. There was no psychotherapy at the time that could treat it either.

Then, a new branch of therapy came out caled Transference Focused Therapy. A specialist branch of psychodynamic therapy, it started to have success treating BPD. DBT came out and had success treating some of the major, more damaging symptoms of BPD. Psychiatry could no longer say it was "incurable", because it had been treated to a level they had never been able. The illness responded to talking therapy - who would have thought it?

Now other therapies are emerging that are having increasing success with treating BPD. Schema Therapy. Interpresonal Reconstructive Therapy. These are multi-disciplinary therapy approches that combone the 'best of' all the other known therapies. One Schema study showed that 50% could be cured outright and a further 25% experienced huge reductions in the key struggles facing BPD sufferers.

Talking therapies work. The most effective ones are primarily built around attachment theory - thats right, John Bolwby's work. Work that was completed from the late 60's to the mid 80's. It is treating psychiatry's untreatable biological illness with psychological means.

The downside to this is that there are still the same multiple factions out there because research is ongoing. Being treated for BPD means choosing your camp, and I think if you take the first one avaiable to you, then that is no choice. The behavioural therapies are known to have much lower success rates in treating BPD in its entirety. Many of them are good at reducing self-harm and improving distress tolerance, but they do not solve the deeper more pervasive issues of long term relationship disturbance and the underlying sensitiy to emotion that the disorder brings. You can tolerate more distress - but the distress is still there nonetheless. The newer, deeper emotional therapies go much further. This is not just my opinion, this is backed up by outcome studies. Schema itself was developed precisely because CBT could not treat BPD. Even DBT does not aim to provide a complete "cure" - but simply to help people control their most self-damaging behaviourd and allow them to function better. However, this is not the same as a 'cure'.

What I am hoping to give with this thread is choice. Choice for when the things you have tried do not work, and choice that prevents you from freeling therapy failures mean that YOU are a failure. You aren't. Two decades ago, a psychiatrist would have told you that BPD was an untreatable illness, and you probably would have accepted that. After all, he's a psychiatrist. Nowadays we know he would be wrong, but there are still people going through less effective therapy types such as CBT, coming out uncured and being made to feel they are still untreatable. Thats not true - its just the technology that was used to try to help them was not the right one. A new approach is needed - and this is the hard part. Getting up and trying again, despite what you are told to the contrary.

My case in point - I was treated on the NHS with CBT and the 'pared-down', non-BPD version of schema therapy (well, in name - we never actually did the schema exercises). I relapsed, I became very depressed. I had suggested I might be BPD to her, she said no way. We terminated therapy, she told me I was dysthymic and that I was untreatable (that phrase again).

I said "no I am fucking not", found a new therapist who suggested BPD, then was moved onto someone experienced in schema for BPD. Now I am seeing progress at last. I realised also that the tool is the smaller part of the equation. The therapist needs certian attributes, and the wrong person can make a total hash of even the best therapies very easily. Schema has contingency built in for this, making it quite unique in this regard.

Never, ever, let anyone tell you that you cannot be helped - no matter what qualification they have, no matter what white coat or business suit they have on. Better people than them have been wrong and will continue to be wrong. never, ever give up because you CAN be truly better.

[walker]

Never, ever, let anyone tell you that you cannot be helped - no matter what qualification they have, no matter what white coat or business suit they have on. Better people than them have been wrong and will continue to be wrong. never, ever give up because you CAN be truly better.

being kicked out and told now is not the time - you are not ready for this - is pretty shit, too - especially as the alternative they give is no support at all

'you need therapy, but you are not ready for it, so we wont give you any help'

??????????????????????????????????

I know where i am going now - straight back to where i was before

bloody bloody bloody hell

the message in my head is now - we dont believe you are ill - you are needy and dependent - and we wont give you any help because it is not acceptable to be like that

Oh, so in other words I am wrong, and bad - well thanks for the support and the false hope - i will squash my needs and fears back into the deep recesses of my mind, where you cant see them - and with any luck they will stay there - hmmmmmmmmm

[wordsmithy]

back two years ago, i was ending up in a and e a lot and i was referred by an understanding gp, to my cmht, then onto a psychiatrist who had more than ten years study in his belt in bpd treatment. with his treatment based on attachment theory.

here are the results of his research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization_based_treatment

there was no point where i was told i could not be helped and after reading the posts on this thread i can see even more so that i was lucky to have met him and been under his care for 2 years +, that i was never told i could not change for the better.

i have read quite a bit about psychodynamic theory albeit on a very basic level, but so far thats the only approach that revealed things to me about how i came to be in distress today.

although my treatment has included dbt priciples i never found it could really help with what i thought was important.

yes, i self-harm and dream of suicide, but i wanted to know why i do. not just to soothe myself and say i love myself, i wanted know how to say it and mean it. and why i couldnt let myself do that.

where do i come from? where do i go onto to?

[lostinme]

ive not had my diagnosis of bpd clearly explained to me, but i had a pretty diar childhood.. we were abused emotionally, physically, psychologically, i was sexually and we were allso neglected severely, food deprived etc. my mum also had munchausens by proxy to a certain degree..

saying that im almost 100% sure my dad also has bpd, and im pretty sure my brothers and sisters all do too.. although obviously me and my siblings had to all endure the abuse.. its interesting..

[hummm_mabbe]

back two years ago, i was ending up in a and e a lot and i was referred by an understanding gp, to my cmht, then onto a psychiatrist who had more than ten years study in his belt in bpd treatment. with his treatment based on attachment theory.

here are the results of his research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization_based_treatment

there was no point where i was told i could not be helped and after reading the posts on this thread i can see even more so that i was lucky to have met him and been under his care for 2 years +, that i was never told i could not change for the better.

i have read quite a bit about psychodynamic theory albeit on a very basic level, but so far thats the only approach that revealed things to me about how i came to be in distress today.

although my treatment has included dbt priciples i never found it could really help with what i thought was important.

yes, i self-harm and dream of suicide, but i wanted to know why i do. not just to soothe myself and say i love myself, i wanted know how to say it and mean it. and why i couldnt let myself do that.

where do i come from? where do i go onto to?

Yes I agree, I think its awesome to have got such a forward thinking psych! I may even revise my opinion of them based on that, there are some nice ones!

Schema Therapy, for me, explains my past, where its put me now, and what I need to do about it far better than psychodynamic did for me. As Schema is based closely on Attachment theory, to me it feels more intuitive and actually hits the mark. Psychodynamic SOMETIMES does but then occasionally makes me go "WTF???". Thats why I like the Reinventing Your Life book. There is even a full full technical (but still human) breakdown of schema and how it treats BPD, in The Practitiioners Guide.

Schema was developed precisely FOR BPD, its ability to explain how the past causes the present and tie that directly to overcoming it, I think, is the most powerful available. It is also versatile and adapts to each persons unique manifestation of the disorder. If you are finding the psychodynamic stuff enlightening, the schema stuff will blow your socks off :)

[voodoopinup]

Thank you soo much for this post I often feel like I dont have a reason to be the way I am which makes me feel more invalidated. I am having a bad time and reading this made me feel a bit better

[wordsmithy]

back two years ago, i was ending up in a and e a lot and i was referred by an understanding gp, to my cmht, then onto a psychiatrist who had more than ten years study in his belt in bpd treatment. with his treatment based on attachment theory.

here are the results of his research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization_based_treatment

there was no point where i was told i could not be helped and after reading the posts on this thread i can see even more so that i was lucky to have met him and been under his care for 2 years +, that i was never told i could not change for the better.

i have read quite a bit about psychodynamic theory albeit on a very basic level, but so far thats the only approach that revealed things to me about how i came to be in distress today.

although my treatment has included dbt priciples i never found it could really help with what i thought was important.

yes, i self-harm and dream of suicide, but i wanted to know why i do. not just to soothe myself and say i love myself, i wanted know how to say it and mean it. and why i couldnt let myself do that.

where do i come from? where do i go onto to?

Yes I agree, I think its awesome to have got such a forward thinking psych! I may even revise my opinion of them based on that, there are some nice ones!

Schema Therapy, for me, explains my past, where its put me now, and what I need to do about it far better than psychodynamic did for me. As Schema is based closely on Attachment theory, to me it feels more intuitive and actually hits the mark. Psychodynamic SOMETIMES does but then occasionally makes me go "WTF???". Thats why I like the Reinventing Your Life book. There is even a full full technical (but still human) breakdown of schema and how it treats BPD, in The Practitiioners Guide.

Schema was developed precisely FOR BPD, its ability to explain how the past causes the present and tie that directly to overcoming it, I think, is the most powerful available. It is also versatile and adapts to each persons unique manifestation of the disorder. If you are finding the psychodynamic stuff enlightening, the schema stuff will blow your socks off

lol

oh... my socks eh?

no thank you, i have really like this thread A LOT.

[hummm_mabbe]

Thank you soo much for this post I often feel like I dont have a reason to be the way I am which makes me feel more invalidated. I am having a bad time and reading this made me feel a bit better

Yay! Glad it helps a little

I think its also worth noting that A LOT of people on this site feel that they dont have a reason to be how they are - I would go so far as to say that with BPD it is perhaps a common thread, a double whammy of having a lot of struggles but at the same time feeling you have no right no recognise them as struggles, or even to blame yourself.

Seeing as "an invalidating environment" seems to be a very core experience for those with BPD, it makes total sense that we would have grown up with a tendency to invalidate ourselves. Can you see what a powerful vicious circle that is? Invalidation makes us ill, and then we actually continue to invalidate ourselves. Its like having a vial of flu virus that we continually reinject into our veins just as we begin to do something to overcome it.

Reading this you may even STILL Hve that sneaking "well, maybe for others but not for me" feeling. I have it too! The fact that we look at others and go "well maybe for him but not for me", and the other guy is thinking the same thing, should probably tell us a thing or two about BPD. Invalidation is one of the big cogs that drive the system That means that finding a source of validation should be a priority in our lives, because we cannot so it for ourselves if we have never been shown how. The other traits of BPD - such as the feeling that we should not show others our emotions and that we "must get over it on our own" are two of the great barriers to actually letting thaose other sources of validation in. The nature of our illness makes us behave in ways that actually stop us from getting validation in our relationships. We choose invalidating people. Our emotions come out of us in fits and starts because we have choked them away for years, and to others they seem over-the-top. Its a cycle, and whats more we feel guilty for ever showing any emotion in the first place. Yet another barrier is the way that, in the absence of what we truly need, we find surrgates to take its place. Drugs, alcohol, sex, spending. All of these things are the body CRAVING emotional sustenance bu, never having had what it truly needs, it finds other things that momentarily fill the hole. But they are surrogates, and like snacking on sickly sweets and cakes, it leaves us feeling bloated and ashamed instead of calm and fulfilled.

We need to learn that its ok to show emotion - including anger and vulnerability.

We need to learn that its ok to HAVE emotion.

We need to learn that the rest of the world wants and is entitled to having people listen, validate and support them, and so are we

We need to learn that this experience at first will lead to extreme guilt feelings, and even the sensation of doing something banned or alien - that is our conditioning. It FEELS right, but it is not.

We need to learn that some people will readily allow us to do this, and will readily give support and validation.

We need to see how we tend to choose people who do not.

Gradualy, steadily and over a lot of time, we need to make gradual changes to who we choose, what we express, what we let in and how we treat ourselves for doing these things.

The rest of the population is happy because they have support from others. Support, validation, empathy, understanding - are HUMAN GIVENS, we all need them and are entitled to them. However in BPD, we have had the ultimate con job pulled on us. Not only have we never received these things and so do not even realise they are missing, but we also feel in our guts that any attempt to get them is criminal.

Breaking that cycle is incredibly hard and will feel like you have just stepped into zero gravity - it will be alien, it will be weird, and it will be frightening. But once we start to get these things, our BODIES recognise it, even if we dont. Just like the body will make you crave a food you need even though you dont realise you need it, so will it respond to the right emotional inputs even though you didnt realise they were missing. It is like a jigsaw piece - when the right one comes along it clicks in place like nothing else can.

The best way to start to make that change is in therapy, where the shame, fear, anger and mistrust can be better handled by someone who knows what the experience of being introduced to emotions you have never felt is like, and how it needs to be directed. Like someone who has been severely dehydrated, you cannot simply give them gallons of water, because their body will reject it. The same is true of emotions - it takes time - a lot of time, to adjust to the new sensations. You may want to run away from it. You may resent it. It may bring up emotions that you could not have imagined would come up, and you may even want to run from these too.

Thats why it will never happen quickly. But with time the body becomes acclimatised, and eventually cannot see how life went on without it beforehand. The reason so many people are stuck is because very few therapists mention this, very few people give it freely outside of close relationships, and because as BPD sufferers we may not even realise these things ever existed.

[hummm_mabbe]

Just as an example of the way the biology myth is propagated throughout the psychiatric world, here is a snip from a paper that researches bioloigcal and other inputs into BPD. It is linked to by the website "BPDdemystified" and the site quotes it as proof that BPD is at least 50% genetic. So, what does the paper they use for this clear assertion REALLY say?

It kicks off with this:

There may be a strong genetic component for the development of BPD, but it seems clear, at least, that there are strong genetic influences on traits that underlie it, such as neuroticism, impulsivity, anxiousness, affective lability, and insecure attachment.

Which is not quite the same as saying "BPD is 50% genetic". But ok, so what does it say about those traits? It says the traits are:

heritable, as demonstrated by twin and adoption studies which if you have been following the course of this thread, you will see refers back to the flawed, yet much vaunted, twin and adoption studies. These studies have been pulled apart by non-psychiatrists, but are religiously referred to by those within the psychiatry camp.

When a real scientific study says "MAY be", that means "the study did not prove it, but we have got to this by adding bits here and taking bits away there". It is not the same thing as conclusive proof - but as you can see by reading BPDdemystified, it is presented as an accepted and unassailable fact.

The study discusses how the best treatments are all psychological, and how the worse indicators of prognosis are all PSYCHOLOGICAL in origin. The paper also cites the MRI data, which again I have discussed above as to why it does not represent proof of biological origin.

Question what you are being fed on this topic, because the evidence just is NOT there. Claiming biology does not tell anyone how to treat this disorder. Only psychotherapy is having any real progress there - but psychiatry MUST hold on to its theory because without it there is nothing for them to do excpet give out drugs. These research papers have far more to do with keeping psychiatrists in a job than in trying to truly understand BPD sufferers as human beings. Moreover, to be told that "its your biology", to a BPD sufferer, can feel one step removed from "its your fault" - a message that we have heard over and over and over again.

I reject it.

[Benjamin]

Unfortunately bad parents can adopt just as they can reproduce.

I was adopted at 3 days old 30 years later and having learned of my bio-family, I can say...both options had their pros and cons. In either case I think BPD for me could have happened. Probably the combination of pre-disposition, abandonment and a bad invalidating childhood. Oh being gay doesn't help either. Anyway to quote my bio-sister "she did the best she could" that also doesn't mean it was good enough, as sounds the case for you and def for me.

I have no idea if I have BPD but as a baby who was kept by a mother who should have put her children up for adoption I feel I have so many issues by being KEPT. Being adopted is not necessarily a bad thing. Terrible, I don't doubt. I often wonder if it would have been worse or maybe just different.

[walker]

have re read whole topic

still having trouble with accepting it though

I can feel it all being dismissed and pushed out of my head

[rozekat]

I'll try to write the reply I had in mind as I read all of these posts, but there was so many my brain is starting to feel mushy...

I was not abused growing up. Neither was my sister. We had very similar upbringings. Our parents never split, so it's not like we had to deal with that. I ended up developing a borderline personality. She didn't. She is a couple of years younger than me (24, I'm 26) and she has is highly independent, has a great partner and a new baby. I'm still trying to get through school and live with my parents.

Two differing kinds of events, seem to me, to be part of the root of my BPD. They are more like child-rearing practices. Firstly, when we were young our parents worked and we stayed with our grandparents alot. Mum went back to work when my sister was 18mths, and we continued this until I was about 9. Secondly, we were always told, "don't be silly", "that's ridiculous", "stop bunging it on" when we were to react to something in an emotional way. This is that emotionally invalidating kind of behaviour that has been discussed. I didn't mind the academic side of school, although my sister hated it. But, socially, I found school to be the most traumatic and humiliating experience of my life. My sister loved it.

While there is plenty of argument to suggest it is the disruption to those really early formative years for people who go on to form a borderline personality disorder, I think these later years need to also be considered. They are the years where you start to challenge everything you've been taught and everything that you are, and at the end of it come out with a clearly-defined sense of self. Unless you're us that is. By the time we have reached those years, our sense of self is already shaky and therefore have more difficulty going through that adolescent process. And we're mostly unsuccessful (does that make sense?) which is why we lack a clear definition of our self, our identity. This was my experience. Added together with that continual emotional invalidation from my family (who thought they were doing what's best to toughen me).

I'm a lucky person. I get to do DBT and it is the best thing I have ever done in my life. I've been in the program since July. Where I live, they're doing research comparing the DBT model of therapy with the Conversational model, and I blindly chose DBT (which was what I wanted). Where they used to have a year long waiting list for patients, they now have too many therapists and I got in straight away. The improvement I have seen in 4 months is amazing! That aside, my point is, through the team of therapists we have been taught that it is believed by the scientific community that some people just happen to be born more emotionally sensitive than other people.

So, the theory as it has been told to me is that people who are born like this are more sensitive to their emotions: they get set off sooner, they peak higher and they last longer. This makes sense to me and in no way makes me feel like anyone in particular needs to be blamed, and it does not invalidate anything for me. It explains why I always cried more than my sister. Why I've gone through years of mental illness (until the correct diagnosis). Why I cry at happy things. Why my world can crumble beneath me so quickly over the slightest thing. Even though we were raised in the same environment and subject to the same conditions (as close to as possible), I was the one who developed BPD and she didn't. I was born more emotionally sensitive than her and I accept that as just the way it is (my ability to do so is probably a result of intensive therapy).

It was said somewhere in here something about people accepting the nature theory over the nurture theory because it means they don't have to look at the things that cause them pain (I think that was the gist). Like most people with borderline personality disorder who have this really strong emotional sensitivity I have gone through times when I just wanted it gone. I wanted to never feel anything again. All I could feel was pain. And I still do feel pain. But I have come to accept it as part of myself and almost as a gift. Sure, I can feel pain and misery in the most excrutiating of ways. But when I am happy, when I am in love, it is exquisite. And I can't have that, I can't have that ability to feel those wonderful things so strongly without that ability to feel its opposite. It's just the way life is. I don't always like it, but I accept it. And acceptance makes it feel less painful when I do feel pain. Pain is a part of life, and it can't be escaped. Sometimes you just have to allow yourself to feel it. And not only because without you wouldn't feel happiness or love, but because in allowing yourself to feel pain, you lessen its hold on you. You actually make it less. Now that I understand this, I am terrified of losing that emotional sensitivity.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I went off topic. Hope I added something of worth :)

[hummm_mabbe]

Unfortunately bad parents can adopt just as they can reproduce.

I was adopted at 3 days old 30 years later and having learned of my bio-family, I can say...both options had their pros and cons. In either case I think BPD for me could have happened. Probably the combination of pre-disposition, abandonment and a bad invalidating childhood. Oh being gay doesn't help either. Anyway to quote my bio-sister "she did the best she could" that also doesn't mean it was good enough, as sounds the case for you and def for me.

I have no idea if I have BPD but as a baby who was kept by a mother who should have put her children up for adoption I feel I have so many issues by being KEPT. Being adopted is not necessarily a bad thing. Terrible, I don't doubt. I often wonder if it would have been worse or maybe just different.

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. The twin and adoption studies claimed (and this is what I disagree with) that because the child of previously schizophrenic parents had been adopted away, that therefore the family they went into must be perfectly ok and so therefore schizophrenia is entirely genetic, and thatfamily influence is minimal. Its a huge assumption made by the study, and in fact when researchers went and followed up the twin and adoption studies years later, they found, as you have, that the adoptive family was just as damaging. They pre-seelcted people on the basis of having schizophrenia AND having been adopted, and made the assumption that the adoptive family was fine when it was not. Its like ignoring the extremely loud and angry elephant in the room. But in order for their study to hold water, they did not talk about the nature of the adoptive families.

So I agree completely that an adoptive family can be just as bad as a biological one.

[hummm_mabbe]

I'll try to write the reply I had in mind as I read all of these posts, but there was so many my brain is starting to feel mushy...

I was not abused growing up. Neither was my sister. We had very similar upbringings. Our parents never split, so it's not like we had to deal with that. I ended up developing a borderline personality. She didn't. She is a couple of years younger than me (24, I'm 26) and she has is highly independent, has a great partner and a new baby. I'm still trying to get through school and live with my parents.

Two differing kinds of events, seem to me, to be part of the root of my BPD. They are more like child-rearing practices. Firstly, when we were young our parents worked and we stayed with our grandparents alot. Mum went back to work when my sister was 18mths, and we continued this until I was about 9. Secondly, we were always told, "don't be silly", "that's ridiculous", "stop bunging it on" when we were to react to something in an emotional way. This is that emotionally invalidating kind of behaviour that has been discussed. I didn't mind the academic side of school, although my sister hated it. But, socially, I found school to be the most traumatic and humiliating experience of my life. My sister loved it.

While there is plenty of argument to suggest it is the disruption to those really early formative years for people who go on to form a borderline personality disorder, I think these later years need to also be considered. They are the years where you start to challenge everything you've been taught and everything that you are, and at the end of it come out with a clearly-defined sense of self. Unless you're us that is. By the time we have reached those years, our sense of self is already shaky and therefore have more difficulty going through that adolescent process. And we're mostly unsuccessful (does that make sense?) which is why we lack a clear definition of our self, our identity. This was my experience. Added together with that continual emotional invalidation from my family (who thought they were doing what's best to toughen me).

I'm a lucky person. I get to do DBT and it is the best thing I have ever done in my life. I've been in the program since July. Where I live, they're doing research comparing the DBT model of therapy with the Conversational model, and I blindly chose DBT (which was what I wanted). Where they used to have a year long waiting list for patients, they now have too many therapists and I got in straight away. The improvement I have seen in 4 months is amazing! That aside, my point is, through the team of therapists we have been taught that it is believed by the scientific community that some people just happen to be born more emotionally sensitive than other people.

So, the theory as it has been told to me is that people who are born like this are more sensitive to their emotions: they get set off sooner, they peak higher and they last longer. This makes sense to me and in no way makes me feel like anyone in particular needs to be blamed, and it does not invalidate anything for me. It explains why I always cried more than my sister. Why I've gone through years of mental illness (until the correct diagnosis). Why I cry at happy things. Why my world can crumble beneath me so quickly over the slightest thing. Even though we were raised in the same environment and subject to the same conditions (as close to as possible), I was the one who developed BPD and she didn't. I was born more emotionally sensitive than her and I accept that as just the way it is (my ability to do so is probably a result of intensive therapy).

It was said somewhere in here something about people accepting the nature theory over the nurture theory because it means they don't have to look at the things that cause them pain (I think that was the gist). Like most people with borderline personality disorder who have this really strong emotional sensitivity I have gone through times when I just wanted it gone. I wanted to never feel anything again. All I could feel was pain. And I still do feel pain. But I have come to accept it as part of myself and almost as a gift. Sure, I can feel pain and misery in the most excrutiating of ways. But when I am happy, when I am in love, it is exquisite. And I can't have that, I can't have that ability to feel those wonderful things so strongly without that ability to feel its opposite. It's just the way life is. I don't always like it, but I accept it. And acceptance makes it feel less painful when I do feel pain. Pain is a part of life, and it can't be escaped. Sometimes you just have to allow yourself to feel it. And not only because without you wouldn't feel happiness or love, but because in allowing yourself to feel pain, you lessen its hold on you. You actually make it less. Now that I understand this, I am terrified of losing that emotional sensitivity.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I went off topic. Hope I added something of worth

Hi there

It would seem that for you the message of biological sensitivity was helpful, and I think this is good. I would be interested to see if this still holds years down the line and whether your opinion on the long term effectiveness of DBT still holds. Its worth noting that the "cehmical imbalance" theory of depression is 'widely accepted', yet is not backed up by science - thats right, there is no proof for the theory that sells billions of pounds worth of drugs a year. Its widely accepted, but it is not proven. The studies challening the effect versus placebo of antidepressants is now highlighting this. Water boils at 100 degrees C at sea level - thats provable science fact. The universe exists in multiple dimensions above and beyond the ones we see now - thats widely accepted science THEORY, but we havent proved it. Theories stand or fall on the facts that are found to support or disconfirm them, such as the earth is flat. Observations of earth curvature dont fit the theory, the theory dies, no matter how widely accepted it was before (in the case of flat earth, it was universally accepted).

I have a sister also. She is older than me and does not have BPD. She has good friends, and for a long time it was easy to believe that I must have been naturally more sensitive because after all, we had the same parents.

Then I realised - parents do not treat their children the same. Parenting is not a uniformly homogenous experience in which each child gets an identical treatment. Sometimes one child is favoured. Sometimes one child has greater expectations placed on it. Sometimes a first child gets poorer initial parenting BECAUSE they are the first and their parents are inexperienced. As research shows, mums emotional state right after birth has a huge impact on ability to cope with parenting and so make a healthy child. The fact that you have it and your sister doesn’t could even be interpreted as DISAGREEING with the biology theory, because now we have to explain why the so called gene for BPD skipped your sister. Is it recessive? We don’t know, because no one has found such a gene.

You have described the invalidating environment. You may be interested to know that a number of researchers are applying a type of 'chaos theory' to the development of mental illness. The idea is that life throws combinations at you, and if you get enough of the wrong combinations, then you end up with mental illness. You cannot know how you were treated as a baby - its a period we cant remember. You cannot know whether your mum behaved the same with you as with your sister. You cannot know if the things that were learned raising you helped to avoid that with your sister. Added to this - siblings have to adapt. Siblings very often are different because they see how the other behaves and realise that, in order to get a fair share, they need to act differently. Something as simple as your sister observing your reaction and going "oh no that doesn’t work - Ill try something else" very very early on would have lead to one of these alternate choices.

The thing about biology is that it is simple and easy to understand - I was born this way. The concept of tiny options and changes at each stage of life feels uncontrollable, intangible. To believe that some organ in our body causes us to get BPD is much easier to understand, and for some comforting. In this case, its nicer for you to believe that you have a biological sensitivity to being emotionally unstable than it is to look into the array of things that may have happened to you as a baby and later, as a child. For me, I am discovering the things that happened to me back then - but not to my sister - as I get older, and the message that I was "just born that way" gets weaker and weaker. The differences in the way my mum treated me and my sister are becoming glaring.

Think about this. Just for the sake of illustration, lets say for 2 occasions, you got angry as a baby. Lets say your parents dont like angry children, and so they scolded you when really you needed to be soothed. They decided you were an emotional child, and from that point on decided to treat you in such as way that you knew they "wouldnt stand for your nonsense". What was nonsense and what was real distress became blurred, and all your emotions were lumped into the "nonsense" category. The invalidation reinforces your emotional problems because you don’t get the support you need.

Lets say your sister, on 2 similar occasions, either didn’t get so angry or your parents were in better moods. You had just done your angry bit. "See how different this one is? She is much calmer. Why cant YOU be more like your sister?". Sister gets treated well because parents like "good babies". They then behave in a way that reinforces that. If this sounds insane, there is good research to show that this is in fact the way it works. One important event means that you begin to fall one side of the barrier or the other - and yes in this you are right - later events then add to it or take it away. Each experience at each moment of life shapes the next - that is how things work. Look how simple it is to be branded with a chronically invalidating message that eats at you, from within, forever until someone comes along and tells you "the message was wrong". Is this a trivial example? What is trivial, to a child? Who decides that? The adult? The same adult who branded your behaviour "nonsensical", and so started the whole reinforcement loop in the first place?

It may be a good way to explain the difference, but the problem is that "biology" still does not have any solid, believable evidence base to it. Its USEFUL for some to be told it, and in your case may even help you to deal, right now, with how you feel. Not to be mean though, but the belief has no basis in science, apart from those studies already mentioned which were extremely flawed. Dont forget that BPD as a dx is simply a collection of descriptive terms that describe a sometimes seen combination of behaviours and experiences. No two "BPD's" are the same. To say that you "got BPD" is a misnomer - what happened is you developed a way of responding and coping that could broadly be said to fit under this descriptive heading. Nature does not recognise the illness of BPD in the same way it recognises the influenza virus, but as these terms are all couched in the language of disease, we ask the question "why did I GET BPD and my sibling didnt?". The question should be "why did my sibling develop strong, adaptive coping responses, the ability to feel soothed, and the ability to let people into her life who are supportive, when I didnt? What did I fail to learn, and why? What did I miss out on that she didnt?"

To me the biology version of events is offensive, it closes down options because people think "oh I will just accept how I am" when in fact they can recover well beyond what they think they can (given the right circumstances, which the behavioral therapies may not represent) and it just adds to the sense of "oh its all my fault" that many people with BPD suffer from. Without proper evidence I find accepting something this damaging to be extremely difficult, but that is both the scientist AND the BPD advocate in me talking.

Why am I saying this? Am I being mean? The thing that concerns me is this: I had CBT, similar to DBT, for a year. I got better, I felt great. For 6 months. And then I relapsed and went back to exactly what I was before. It destroyed me, and I kept trying to do the exercises that the method suggested. The thing was, it wasn’t the method that caused the change in feeling - it was the PERSON I was seeing, it was the therapist. Without him, I did not feel better. This was because of the ESSENTIAL EMOTIONAL NEEDS that had been chronically frustrated when I was little. He acted in the precise opposite way to what my childhood experiences were. He gave me what I had never had, and the reaction, internally and in my mind, was huge. Energy. My skin looked different. My voice sounded different. All things that FELT like biology, but were connected entirely with the experience with this person.

I did not do it for long enough, and what’s more I did not deal with the underlying problem - the chronic sense of abandonment by my parents, the chronic invalidation, the chronic imbalance of how my sister was treated versus how I was treated, the expectations on her versus the expectations on me and the subtle ways that made me see my place in the world. Thats right - my upbringing drove how I acted towards others, when I acted that way, they responded a certain way. That kept the same old loop going and going. But therapy didnt touch any of these things - it just gave me what I needed at the time and that made me feel better. But without understanding all the ways I was neglected - and believe me, I didn’t want to believe I had been, I didn’t even want to look at the past. I just BLAMED MYSELF. However now, I see its NOT my fault. Blame is not a state I intend to stay in, so I have no fear of blaming my parents. This fear does not stop me from looking at my past objectively.

Did you know that even biological psychiatry agrees that even if there is a biological sensitivity, good parenting will override any natural temperamental deficit? That is, even if you are "born sensitive", good parenting will stop you from developing mental illness? Now who begins to look like the greatest culprit?

When you accept the biology model, it means you don’t have to look there in detail. You can just generalise your whole childhood experience and say "oh it was ok generally, and anyway my sister turned out ok so it must just be me". This seems to be working for you, but if you ever have a relapse, it means you are more likely to say "oh I am so silly, its my fault I cant get better, I will always be like this" than to say "perhaps this type of therapy has missed something. Maybe its not biology, maybe there is something deeper that I cannot currently see". The way you view your problem DEFINES how you tackle it - that’s a core tenet of science. The IMO fatalistic view of "its biology" leads you much more swiftly to the route of "its hopeless" than does the nurture path. However, nurture is infinitely more complex, and so less inherently appealing, than biology.

As someone who has experienced all these things myself, spoken to hundreds of folks online with the same experiences, and having a background in analytical science, it is very very hard to reconcile the widely accepted theory of biology with what I see again and again - and the fact that it keeps a lot of people stuck and hurting, to my mind, makes it not only scientifically wrong but all the more unpleasant.

[hummm_mabbe]

To add

Its possible that your sister did receive some of the same invalidation that you did, however the accumulation of the earlier insulating experiences defines which side of that "chaos" barrier she was likely to fall. If she took those same experiences forward, they become her "coping responses". If they work, she stays healthy. The thing is, good parenting will ensure that much more of the time, you fall on the RIGHT side of the barrier. Parenting coloured by the parents own prejudices about their children is far less likely to do so, especially if the parent themself finds it hard to deal with their own emotional arousal. If this is the case, the parent ends up applying the "chance" approach to parenting, and instead of trying hard to understand whats missing for their child and provide it, they wash their hands of the problem by saying "oh she was born that way". The child then BELIVES IT - for the rest of their life.

I appreciate I am unlikely to change your mind, but I hope that should you get to a stage where you think "oh hang on this isnt working" that you will bear in mind what I said and toy with the idea that perhaps a more detailed look at the formative years, and hopefully any healing that needs to be done, will be something worth doing.

IMO there is no upper limit on how much better you can be, except for if you belive it. Once you tell yourself that you cannot rise past a certain point, then that is as sure as if it were true. The self fulfilling prophecy is one of the most powerful influences for recovery - and its why a patient that feels ONLY hopeless all the time about their propspects is seen by therapists as being much less likely to recover. I have seen the level of improvament thats possible, and I wont let anyone tell me there is a cap on it when I have been well past what they tell me I can do already. For some therapists and psychiatrists, what they actually mean is "there is only so far that I am able to take you, but I dont want to admit that" as opposed to "this is how far you can actually go".