You're Pathetic

[hummm_mabbe]

If you 'loved' someone who had flaws (not disabilities or a tendency towards anger or abusiveness - just flaws), is it 'accepting their flaws' to tell them they are useless all the time, then add "but I love you"?

If you loved someone who had flaws, would it be 'loving' to continually point them out to them, to get angry at them over them, to pick them up about them in front of others, and then laughingly add "but I love him/her", whilst the person sits there drowning in shame?

Is it right to continually shame the person for their flaws, adding that you love them, and claim that you only shame them BECAUSE you love them?

Is it right to somehow treat them as though they are incapable of existing without you, because of their flaws? To try to foster dependence in them, because they themselves come to belive that they are incapable? And maybe BECOME incapable because they stop trying, or experience such anxiety in trying - through believing they will fail - that it becomes impossible anyway?

If the flaws are rectifiable, is it love to do nothing to try to build them up and encourage, and instead to just say "thats how you are" and continue to shame them when those flaws arise?

Is this love, or does it have another name?

[walker]

Ross,

I feel I know this,

but hav just been 'home' and am not sure

I think this is what i know

i am scared it is also what I have done

Sorry if it was done to you

xxxx

[DaisyChain]

I think you already know the answer Ross, I just wanted to say Im sorry that someone did this to you, and no, it isnt love, nor is it acceptable.

Take care x

[hummm_mabbe]

I should have some emotions when I talk about this, but I dont - Im just blank.

The above is how my mum treats her partner, and it has always pained me to watch. I even stand up for him, and never realised why. I guess for me I never knew any different - but because I always got the "but I love you" part, just like he does, somehow that blinded my mind, myself, to what was being said, what was being done. Its done with a smile, with a laugh - which of course means that, should you protest, you are "just being too sensitive" - or should you approach anger - you are left to think about it, until you have calmed down.

It feels as though it is the most normal thing in the world - and of course, I am just making a fuss!

Its the core of me - the stinking, shameful core that I once described to a psychotherapist as "a black ooze inside of me". And somehow, a huge part of me wants to just roll over and say "So? Why are you making a fuss?". I wouldnt - DON'T - tolerate it when its done to others. Why cant I make that connection that THAT is how it was, for me, since the beginning?

Is it like a poison - that if you take a small enough dose, often enough, it almost becomes something thats part of you? You dont notice it anymore, apart from the slow erosion of your health, which somehow you seem to blame on other things?

[eve-naive]

I'm sorry that's how its been for you hummm.

I grew up with my dad being like this with my mum all the time every day and even now. He did it to all of us in a round about way - constantly making jokes about the Welsh being stupid. My mum is welsh and we were all born and raised in Wales.Laughing at everything she says and does, sometimes it might have been a thoughtless remark that could be deemed funny, but it's all the time. 'Your mum said something stupid'. My mum cannot give an opinion, she does not have a voice and at the moment she isn't going out again - unless my dad takes her.

I told him about it - told him how after the first once or twice it stops being funny. It's 32 years now.

I'm feeling very angry with my dad today I'm sorry.

[hummm_mabbe]

I mean, I am sitting here writing this, and I know what is going on with me - intellectually. In my guts, another battle is going on.

I belive that I truly am flawed, truly shameful and incapable, and NEEDING coddling, leading, shaming. If I werent so broken and pathetic then I wouldnt NEED it, would I? Mum was just doing what I needed, to make up for how useless I am - and the rest is all just me protesting pointlessly, in the hope that if I shout loud enough people might not notice. If I get angry enough, maybe it will stop.

Its why I always feel powerelss when I argue with it - like that face she would do "yes yes yes .. mummy knows best".

Its surrender - surrender to the feeling inside. "Mum was right - I am flawed and useless, I need coddling. Its clear I cant function in the world, and all this anger is just being mean to poor mum, who only ever did what was best to help me cope with my uselessness. She can stand back, and say with a tear in her eye, "after all I did for you", like a martyr, silently accepting her ill treatment from her ungrateful son.

And all this noise is just trying to blame someone else, put the flak on poor old mum who just holds out until her ungrateful son finally realises the error of his ways.

Intellectually I hear part of me calling bullshit, but my emotions still belive her messages, still see the faces she made and that feeling DEEP inside - guilt and shame, like a child throwing a tantrum. "He'll come around"

[hummm_mabbe]

I'm sorry that's how its been for you hummm.

I grew up with my dad being like this with my mum all the time every day and even now. He did it to all of us in a round about way - constantly making jokes about the Welsh being stupid. My mum is welsh and we were all born and raised in Wales.Laughing at everything she says and does, sometimes it might have been a thoughtless remark that could be deemed funny, but it's all the time. 'Your mum said something stupid'. My mum cannot give an opinion, she does not have a voice and at the moment she isn't going out again - unless my dad takes her.

I told him about it - told him how after the first once or twice it stops being funny. It's 32 years now.

I'm feeling very angry with my dad today I'm sorry.

I really want to be able to identify with how you are feeling, but in this part of me there is just a blank - like a big "censored" sign across my feelings. In some ways I am jealous of you because you seem to have an easier path to your anger at him ... I know, odd thing to be jealous of.

Its like having a vat of poison inside me, but its labeled "medicine - do not tamper with or open" with a big smiley face on it. I know its hurting me but I cant break the padlock off and people tell me how bad I am for tampering with the medicine - why would I want to damage the medicine? Am I a selfish little boy? I must be, if I want to damage the medicine ....

I think I know why I hate politicians now.

"But its just a joke right?" - yes, to everyone outside, who doesnt know how all-pervasive it is.

Is this gaslighting??

[DaisyChain]

But you are no longer a child Ross, you are a MAN, not a boy, you perhaps need to distance yourself from your mother at the moment.

A woman beginning to tell a man who has been nurtured and cared for and protected throughout his childhood would disregard the comments now, but you revert back to that child that was scorned and subjected to this, it is what you have grown up with, have learned, which leaves you confused now, because you have the same feelings programmed much earlier, yet as the man you have a voice.

Maybe you can be protector to the BOY, and try to shield him now, as he should have been by others then.

Your mother making you, and her partner, feel this way, is about how she chooses to interact with others, it does not mean that it is TRUE, and it sure is not LOVE.

Stay strong, and keep talking

You do not have to accept this or "come around"

x

[hummm_mabbe]

But you are no longer a child Ross, you are a MAN, not a boy, you perhaps need to distance yourself from your mother at the moment.

A woman beginning to tell a man who has been nurtured and cared for and protected throughout his childhood would disregard the comments now, but you revert back to that child that was scorned and subjected to this, it is what you have grown up with, have learned, which leaves you confused now, because you have the same feelings programmed much earlier, yet as the man you have a voice.

Maybe you can be protector to the BOY, and try to shield him now, as he should have been by others then.

Your mother making you, and her partner, feel this way, is about how she chooses to interact with others, it does not mean that it is TRUE, and it sure is not LOVE.

Stay strong, and keep talking

You do not have to accept this or "come around"

x

Hi Daisy!

Yes I agree with everything you say, trying to work with Little Ross, he is in there, and lately I have cried about so many things that I never even knew I hurt over, so much buried.

But on this, theres just a huge blank. I cant get to what Little Ross SHOULD feel as a result of this, because its like he is resigned to it. IM resigned to it. Intellectually, I know its all crap, that I should fight and choose not to belive it - but that is the power of those deepest, earliest messages. They have a hand around the guts that words alone cannot touch. Ive been trying to fight this for some time, and I know its not going to be fast.

The reason I made this post is to give voice to that part of me that belives I deserved it. Somehow if I let it speak, instead of trying to shout at it, or stuff it away, it speaks and shows me its flaws. The more I let it talk, the more it starts to talk itself into a hole.

Its very powerful though - I didnt really expect this thread to lead to a resolution, but seeing other people identify what Im talking about as wrong helps, its a start.

[Rael]

i understand the difficulties between knowing something, and acting on something. deep down you know that being treated this way is wrong, but when its something you've been told over and over again it gets inside you, and no amount of knowing seems to shift it.

i know you stood up for her partner, but its you who needs standing up for. must be so hard seeing her do the same thing she does to you to him and standing up for him is great, but you need to for you too. easy thing for me to say i know, can you get some distance from her, sounds like things are really bringing these feelings up for you.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

i understand the difficulties between knowing something, and acting on something. deep down you know that being treated this way is wrong, but when its something you've been told over and over again it gets inside you, and no amount of knowing seems to shift it.

i know you stood up for her partner, but its you who needs standing up for. must be so hard seeing her do the same thing she does to you to him and standing up for him is great, but you need to for you too. easy thing for me to say i know, can you get some distance from her, sounds like things are really bringing these feelings up for you.

xxx

Hullo

I havent spoken to her since March. In some ways I think I have finally realised what has put all that shame there. Before now it was a hazy area, I could never find 'the source' - and then suddenly made the connection between how she treats her partner, how it makes me feel when she does, and the similarity to how she treated me. It explains everything, but as you say, these things are like a stain that wont wash out no matter how much polished intellectual argument you throw at them. I know thats why my T is using 'experiential' therapy and not cognitive, but this really feels like the most stubborn stain of all

[hummm_mabbe]

OOpsie missed a bit

Yes, standing up for myself .. its so much easier doing it for her partner. For me, there is just this massive internal barrier, a powerlessness, a sensation of I have lost before I even open my mouth. It leads only to frustration and sickening depression.

Sorry, bit meoldramatic, but its why I stopped talking to her.

[Rael]

these things take a long time to ingrain into you, its probably going to take a fair while and amount of work to get it out. you moving forwards by recognizing whats going on and working on it. im glad you said this 'The reason I made this post is to give voice to that part of me that belives I deserved it. Somehow if I let it speak, instead of trying to shout at it, or stuff it away, it speaks and shows me its flaws. The more I let it talk, the more it starts to talk itself into a hole.' sometimes when the argument is against ourselves, the more we hear it out, the more we see where its logic fails, where it doesnt quite seem to make the sense and impact it once did. as i said it takes time but im glad you are working on it and i truly hope you get through it because you are most certainly not useless or pathetic, anything but in fact and one day your core being/inner child will know that too.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

these things take a long time to ingrain into you, its probably going to take a fair while and amount of work to get it out. you moving forwards by recognizing whats going on and working on it. im glad you said this 'The reason I made this post is to give voice to that part of me that belives I deserved it. Somehow if I let it speak, instead of trying to shout at it, or stuff it away, it speaks and shows me its flaws. The more I let it talk, the more it starts to talk itself into a hole.' sometimes when the argument is against ourselves, the more we hear it out, the more we see where its logic fails, where it doesnt quite seem to make the sense and impact it once did. as i said it takes time but im glad you are working on it and i truly hope you get through it because you are most certainly not useless or pathetic, anything but in fact and one day your core being/inner child will know that too.

xxx

I suppose what I want to feel is the sadness that should be attached to this. Its like until I feel the pain that should be under this, it isnt real, its still invalidated. All I can feel is anger, frustration, powerlessness and then .. nothing.

Crying somehow makes these things real, but crying is a new experience for me. When it comes its actually wonderful, a healing experience. But for this Im currently at a point where I question if its there, even though it SHOULD be.

I want that little key that lets it flow.

[Rael]

possibly a bit random or stupid but just thought, would a kind of conditioning help? i mean like i know you have some films/clips that can make you cry, can you think about certain things when watching these and maybe associate the crying with the thoughts. just wondering cos i have kinda done it before with middling success.

just a thought anyway

back

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

possibly a bit random or stupid but just thought, would a kind of conditioning help? i mean like i know you have some films/clips that can make you cry, can you think about certain things when watching these and maybe associate the crying with the thoughts. just wondering cos i have kinda done it before with middling success.

just a thought anyway

back

xxx

I know when I find the 'right' clip, it opens the floodgates. Normally if I have been thinking about that theme, and then right thing comes up, a bit like me thinking about not belonging etc and then reading those "My Chemcial Romance" lyrics.

It just seems that "the beaten down male" - either the 'mummies boy' or the 'henpecked male' is a figure of fun, not something to be seen as a painful experience, but more looked on with scorn. "How could a man let himself be treated like that?". It fits with the same sense of scorn that I feel from everything, like I said - the shame blots out the sadness that should be there.

Would such a movie or book exist? After all, the emasculated male is a figure of fun for most in the literary world, like a 'last taboo' if you like. It feels as though if a man is moved to complain about his treatment by a female, then somehow he has brought it upon himself through simple defectiveness or weakness - and so, deserves it. Or am I just imagining this phenomenon? Is this not how 'society' feels? Am I just mapping my mothers black-or-white views of men onto the rest of the world?

Bit rambly, but in some ways I am making sense of my feelings about this as Im typing.

[jenga]

Hi Ross

I just read through this whole post and I am reminded of something from my own therapy sessions. Please take this in the spirit it is given, as just an observation. You are obviously going through lots of introspection and work on so many thoughtful issues, and I am in no place to give advice!

I noticed that quite a few times you used the word SHOULD in regards to what you "should" be feeling or doing. I do that myself quite a bit, and I am noticing that in therapy I keep analyzing the whole process of therapy instead of just letting it be what it is.

In other words, when you say you should feel a certain way, then you are making a judgement, and our lives have already been too full of judgements. Your feelings- whatever they may be- anger, confusion, sadness.... well, they just ARE. It is what it is. They are not right or wrong, they just are.

So I am wondering if maybe you could try to just let them be what they are, and not make a judgment on them. When you expect something specific, then you are setting yourself up for "failing" or not be able to "do what you should do." Acceptance of how you feel can help to validate yourself, instead of continuing the pattern of never being enough. It frees you up to just let some things be, and gives you time to work on what you can affect now.

[daisy duck]

Hey there you....im sorry your feeling like this.To love someone is o love their flaws..whether it be your son/man/wife ect its about accepting people for who they are.When you love someone you look for the good in them.To me that is love.Im sorry your mum treated you like that...its good you had the courage to walk away

xxxxxxxxx

[walker]

ross

I know

I recognise, and understand the intensity and stubborness of this pain

you are insensed watching it happen to her partner - a grown man - yet you accept it happening to you - as a child (and man)

but you dont accept it, you just cant UN accept it

sorry, i dont think anything I say will help, as I am equally stuck,

someone here said its the need to hang it on to something specific, and perhaps for you it is similar

there a little events where you can feel anger, but for the most part - it was nothing specifc, it is just a continual grinding away of another person and who they were/could have been

like you said - the drip drip drip of a poison

thankyou for posting this, as it is helping me

i believe you will get rid of this - that you are - but it is in such tiny threads, that you do not always see what you achieve

sorry , think this is zero support, but it wasnt meant to be like that

keep rubbing away

[Roses]

They can try to crush your spirit but they can never take away who you are inside. Follow your instincts. xxx

[jades]

here in the south we have a perfect way of saying any vile nasty or gossipy thing about anyonr by saying belss his/her heart afterwords and everyone finds it acceptable its really the same as what your mom does remember some people we love cause theyre family but doesnt mean theyre not toxic people i think ur mom may be toxic forgive me for saying u can love her all u want but eventually sheell just make u ill hugs xxxxxx

[jades]

if all else fails say anything u want to her and remember to bless her heart lol trying to get a smile xxxxx

[Wendyjo]

OOpsie missed a bit

Yes, standing up for myself .. its so much easier doing it for her partner. For me, there is just this massive internal barrier, a powerlessness, a sensation of I have lost before I even open my mouth. It leads only to frustration and sickening depression.

Sorry, bit meoldramatic, but its why I stopped talking to her.

Wha...?¿? Listen, if the lady has belittled you all her life then, I certainly don't blame you for not talking to her. But from your above posts, it sounds as if you visit her and her spouse's house, listen to her berate him (and yourself) and do "stick-up" for her marital partner (although not yourself). Correct? Why not also confront the woman for her verbally abusive treatment of you or completely cease visiting the home of the emotional terrorist?

No loud, fitful tantrums are necessary to confront her unhealthy assaults on the emotional well-being of those she claims to love. Make a plan with your therapist. How would you best intervene for yourself during one, or any of her unhealthy "I'm so good & you're not" rants?

Perhaps you could best respond by replying in a non-argumentative manner. "Mom, thanks for loving me, and I love you. I'm well aware of _______ (name flaw she named) as you bring it up often. Should you wish to discuss it privately sometime then, we will. Until then let's have a pleasant time together."

Reverse the personal nature of the comment when she is bad mouthing her spouse: "Mom, I know you love ____(name of spouse). However hearing you speak poorly of him while I'm here is most uncomfortable for me. Please speak with ____ about his flaws when I'm not here. Thank you."

Be direct and respectful. Be consistent, time and time again with your assertive comments just like she is with her disrespectful comments. She maybe a selfish and hard headed woman but eventually she'll get the message. And you? You'll get the hang of being self-assertive which will allow you a deeper command for self-respect.

God Bless

[AveMaria]

Just wanted to send you a hug and let you know I can relate. The majority of the people in my family act similarly to me so I can see where you are coming from. They have always made me feel that since they are my family and you are supposed to love and be supporting of family that their actions show there is something fundamentally wrong with me. Hope you find a way to recover from how your mom has treated you, it is a failing she has and it is horrible that you are the one suffering from it.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

Just wanted to send you a hug and let you know I can relate. The majority of the people in my family act similarly to me so I can see where you are coming from. They have always made me feel that since they are my family and you are supposed to love and be supporting of family that their actions show there is something fundamentally wrong with me. Hope you find a way to recover from how your mom has treated you, it is a failing she has and it is horrible that you are the one suffering from it.

xxx

Hullo AveMAria and all the people who replied

Reading all your thoughts has really helped. Today I felt very slightly different, somehow that shaming, invalidating voice had slightly less power today. I have been hiding it away for so long, the power of the shame it brings has made me do that. But actually bringing it out, talking about it, somehow it has moulded it a little differently today.

I mean, its odd but I am actually feeling shame, then loneliness and sadness, instead of just a nanosecond of shame, followed by the anger and frustration that tries to cover it up. I am actually feeling MORE afriad, more lonely - but that is whats really there, instead of all the covers and masks that were there to hide it.

Because I can feel the real effect of it - loneliness, sadness, pain - I feel like I want to be able to give that little frightened part of me what it needs. I have been kind of imagining my therapists voice, backing me up, making it ok to feel how Im feeling, and most importantly arguing back against the shaming, hateful voice that always puts me in a double bind. The thing is now the voice has a face - its my mum and my sister. I hear my therapists voice saying:

"stop talking to him that way - he needs support, not constant undermining. I dont care if you feel bad abut yourself - no amount of criticism and shaming is going to make him suddenly overcome his struggles. In fact, its directly BECAUSE you have done nothing but undermine and shame, from the beginning, that he never developed his own ability to cope. YOU PUT IT THERE and then turn around and say 'see? he's useless - thats why we have to shame him'. But its the shaming that made him that way in the first place! It is emotional blackmail, the worst kind of manipulation. I dont care if you hurt or had a bad past - that does not give you the right to make him feel like a second rate human just because you never dealt with your own childhood. He needs support, not even more scorn for the things he already knows he struggles with."

Its what I never had - acceptance, support, guidance, respect.