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You're Pathetic


hummm_mabbe

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I found an article online too. This bit really resonated with me:

"Shame manifests itself physically in a wide variety of forms. The person may hide their eyes; lower their gaze; blush; bite their lips or tongue; present a forced smile; or fidget. Other responses may include annoyance, defensiveness, exaggeration or denial. Because the affect of shame often interferes with our ability to think, the individual may experience confusion, being at a loss for words, or a completely blank mind.

One source of shame is associated with the expression of certain emotions. In many families, as well as in many cultures, expression of such feelings as anger, fear, sadness or vulnerability, may be met with shaming reproaches, such as "Pull yourself together," "Don't be a baby," "Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about," or "You don't have anything to be afraid of." Pride is also a feeling that is often met with shameful condemnations, such as "Who do you think you are, Mr. Bigshot?," or "You're getting too big for your britches." Often these shaming admonitions are internalized, so that when we get in touch with any of these "shameful feelings" we will automatically feel shame, and try to control or hide the feelings, or, at the very least, to apologize profusely for them.

Clearly these shaming inner voices can do considerable damage to our self esteem. These self criticisms, that we are stupid, selfish, a show-off, etc., become, in varying degrees, how we see ourselves. For some of us, the inner critical judge is continuously providing a negative evaluation of what we are doing, moment-by-moment. As mentioned before, the inner critic may make it impossible for one to do anything right, telling you that you are too aggressive, or not aggressive enough, that you're too selfish, or that you let people walk all over you. "

The bit in bold is like every conversation I ever had at home. Basically "eveything you do is wrong, no matter what. You are just flawed. Arent you lucky you have us here to pull you up by your boot-straps? I hope you are grateful". No wonder I always felt a sense of falling, spinning, a total loss of control. Nothing made any sense and all I could do was drown.

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:bigarmhug[1]: even though the feelings may be bad, they are there and they are real, im glad you can see and feel them without the masks. knowing the feelings are there, now you can comfort them. you have a link to the real voices behind it and im glad you are able to use your therapists voice to talk to them.

xxx

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:bigarmhug[1]: even though the feelings may be bad, they are there and they are real, im glad you can see and feel them without the masks. knowing the feelings are there, now you can comfort them. you have a link to the real voices behind it and im glad you are able to use your therapists voice to talk to them.

xxx

Hi Rael

Tis just nice to get it out finally, and have some belief in it.

I feel like I need to say all this actually in front of a person (my T I guess) so it becomes real. I realise that shame has been affecting my relationship with my T, like I needed to neatly package things for her. And some part of me belives that she actually looks down on me, in the same way - kind of "awww arent you pathetic, but I like you. But you are pathetic" - you know, I expect people to write me off.

I need to bring that up with her because I think Im projecting it onto her - that feeling. It stops me letting her in, and I do this kinna bulldozer-keep-speaking-so-she-cant-get-in type thing. I need to tell her I expect her to pity me, inwardly laugh at me and write me off, I want her to know that and hopefully I will see its not true. But right now I expect everyone to do that :( To see the horrible flaws, cracks and filth inside, and how I dont fit in with humanity.

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Its normal to have flaws, everyone does....no one is perfect.

Yea, I believe this has another name: Its called "Slapping you up and down"! :angry2: Sorry .... it just makes me angry to read how he is treating you. He shouldnt be doing this to you. My dad did that a lot with my mom, and I know how bad it made her feel to the point she didnt want to go to any social events with him anymore.

I wouldnt let a man treat me like that ... not long.

Hope my reply wasnt too emotional,

xElke

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Its normal to have flaws, everyone does....no one is perfect.

Yea, I believe this has another name: Its called "Slapping you up and down"! :angry2:

You mean like:

"Oh, you need to be better than you are" = slap up

"Oh dear, you are useless" = slap down

?

Never constructive, always punitive?

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i think i can safely say that you will find its not true. so yeah you have flaws, they not horrible ones from what i can see and not filth. these are inwardly projected views, not ones that any outside person usually holds, but then people are always good at saving the worst criticisms for ourselves. you definitely do fit in with humanity, you are human right?? ;) joking.

its a big fear to face, but one that im very sure of that will be shown not true.

:bigarmhug[1]:

xxx

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i think i can safely say that you will find its not true. so yeah you have flaws, they not horrible ones from what i can see and not filth. these are inwardly projected views, not ones that any outside person usually holds, but then people are always good at saving the worst criticisms for ourselves. you definitely do fit in with humanity, you are human right?? ;) joking.

its a big fear to face, but one that im very sure of that will be shown not true.

:bigarmhug[1]:

xxx

Hulooooooooo

**more hugs**

Yanno I remember a while ago you made a post saying a similar sort of thing, that somehow you always feel that sooner or later people will see through you and see you for "what you really are". I remember at the time feeling a sort of distant emotional identification with it, but it was more intellectual at the time. Now I feel like I can fully feel it. When I talk to people, I feel like they are looking right into my soul, and they react to it with contempt, like someone who has just walked into your living room and shat on your carpet, then said "mind if I have a beer?". Its like a combination of disgust and contempt. Its all that shame sitting there in a big puddle.

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This thead is really opening me up to things that have happened to me and things I've done to others. Thanks so much for the insights, I've got a lot to ponder here.

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Hi Ross

I just read through this whole post and I am reminded of something from my own therapy sessions. Please take this in the spirit it is given, as just an observation. You are obviously going through lots of introspection and work on so many thoughtful issues, and I am in no place to give advice! :)

I noticed that quite a few times you used the word SHOULD in regards to what you "should" be feeling or doing. I do that myself quite a bit, and I am noticing that in therapy I keep analyzing the whole process of therapy instead of just letting it be what it is.

In other words, when you say you should feel a certain way, then you are making a judgement, and our lives have already been too full of judgements. Your feelings- whatever they may be- anger, confusion, sadness.... well, they just ARE. It is what it is. They are not right or wrong, they just are.

So I am wondering if maybe you could try to just let them be what they are, and not make a judgment on them. When you expect something specific, then you are setting yourself up for "failing" or not be able to "do what you should do." Acceptance of how you feel can help to validate yourself, instead of continuing the pattern of never being enough. It frees you up to just let some things be, and gives you time to work on what you can affect now.

Hi Jenga

Sorry I missed this post :)

I do a lot of work with mindfulness, and especially lately I have tried seeing things as a 'tension of oppsites' sort of like the DBT approach. You know, I want things to be one way, but right now they are another. I dont have to like it, but for now I accept it.

When I was using the shoulds up there, I was giving voice to that inner critic, the shamer, the demander. Its what she is always saying - I should be this, shouldnt be that. Should do this bla bla bla. I have tried for many years to challenge that intellectually with CBT and so on, but its only lately that I am feeling some emotional shift. After all, its one thing to say "well I accept that this is how it is" but actually FEEL "no I dont". As Rael said, so often the words are fine but the effect doesnt penetrate deep down.

I am getting more able to accept what is right now prpbably because right now I can see change and progress. When I am feeling stuck, angry and frustrated, acceptance comes much harder! I did find everything easier to acept once I got on a path of therapy that I belived in though. It was like "yeah Iknow everything has fallen apart, but I trust that in time things will change"

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This thead is really opening me up to things that have happened to me and things I've done to others. Thanks so much for the insights, I've got a lot to ponder here.

Hullo Cats :)

I think in many ways this stuff is "the elephant in the room" when it comes to recovery. In many ways we all know its there, but it refuses to be talked about - not that we make a conscious choice. Shame is such a powerful, deep and controllong emotion that it just buries itself right inside.

Many psychologists even admit they find it difficult to talk about, and so I think for this reason its rarely broached. However I think that for things like BPD, personality disorders and even the psychoses, this concept of shame and 'double binds' is something thats very core for us.

Realising all this stuff for me has been very exciting, and is explaining so much about myself that was previously very hazy.

Try not to feel guilty if you feel you have done this to other people - if you are treated a certain way its hard not to do it to others, and if you have buried the experience away because its painful, you wont even realise youre doing it until perhaps a thread like this allows you to "put a name" to it. Until you can name it, its just a fuzzy collection of memories that come up, make you wince and wish rapidly to just go back to what you were feeling before. To identify that you had it done to you, and that you might do it to others, is a courageous admission to make and shows that you are ready to broach these feelings inside :)

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Ross

I feel the same

the shame

Sorry, that there is nothing useful for me to say

but i am sorry you feel it too

S'ok :) I think this is something pretty universal for many on this site :(

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if all else fails say anything u want to her and remember to bless her heart lol trying to get a smile xxxxx

Lol

You did get a smile, and I really liked the example, yes its exactly like that!

Bless his heart ...

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Dear Mum,

You hurt me more than anyone has ever hurt me in my life. You cut me down to size every opportunity you get and you critisise my every thought and action. I wish you'd just fucking realise what a bitch you are being so we can have a normal relationship cos I love you but you drive me crazy.

BLESS YOUR HEART XXXXXXX

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Dear Mum,

You hurt me more than anyone has ever hurt me in my life. You cut me down to size every opportunity you get and you critisise my every thought and action. I wish you'd just fucking realise what a bitch you are being so we can have a normal relationship cos I love you but you drive me crazy.

BLESS YOUR HEART XXXXXXX

Hullo Roses

Im glad you could get that out, its something that mabbe youve been wanting to say but mabbe felt you shouldnt, or couldnt. If youre like me, I expect as you wrote it you still felt a pull inside you shouting "NO NO NO ITS ALL LIES" or something similar, because thats what I get too. I feel bad for letting out anger, like I am being ungrateful and shameful.

But the thing is, until I let the anger out, I could never connect with the little child part of me. As long as I saw the little child part of me as undeserving, and as long as I agreed with what I had been made to feel, I could not begin to feel what my 'little me' was feeling. Its hard to get angry at our parents because they mixed up their love with the things that hurt us. With one hand they gave us that ray of hope that we will be loved as completely as our hearts desire, and with the other we are reminded that somehow we are still not good enough.

Its so hard to feel angry at them because of that part that hangs on most strongly to the hope and feelings of love that came along - the medicine with the poision. To get angry at them makes us feel like we are abandoning the hope and wrongfully, and deliberately, blocking out the love they gave us.

Yes - maybe they did mix in love with the posion - but why did we need the poison? The message has always been "because it was for you own good", or "because you were so flawed". But the truth is, the posion was never going to work where encouragement, guidance acceptance and respect were needed. And THAT is why we have that buried anger deep inside of us - the one that surfaces at seemingly random things and we have no control over them. That is why its OK to be angry at them, angry at them for the damage they did do, even whilst part of them acted as loving as it could.

If we only say "well they tried their best, they loved me but made mistakes" then we cut ourselves off from the little part of us, like watching a hurt child in the corner and saying "it cant have hurt that much" even though its crying. IT DID HURT - and thats what leaks out everyday in our lives as depression, anxiety, fear and emptiness. Anger is the path that makes you want to protect and listen to that little child in you, because until you do you can only give into and serve the messages of guilt and shame that the 'bad' side of our parents put there.

Getting you anger out like this is right and courageous. Makes me have a little tearful thing :hug2:

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Maybe it was that generation. It was like crouching tiger hidden dragon in my house. Shoes flying like ninja stars and Bruce lee had nothing on my mother when she got going. She had a harder life but then I ever had and she managed to bury her demons deep (they are genetic in my family on both sides) and only take them out on occasion so I forgave her bout two years ago (even though she never asked). She still wrecks my head and constantly criticizes me but that's her and she loses out on so much by being like that. Cant see me popping round for a load of abuse too often.

All family's are nuts if you ask me. I never met one that was not. Some just hide it better than others.

Well done for putting it out there.

Blue

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Maybe it was that generation. It was like crouching tiger hidden dragon in my house. Shoes flying like ninja stars and Bruce lee had nothing on my mother when she got going. She had a harder life but then I ever had and she managed to bury her demons deep (they are genetic in my family on both sides) and only take them out on occasion so I forgave her bout two years ago (even though she never asked). She still wrecks my head and constantly criticizes me but that's her and she loses out on so much by being like that. Cant see me popping round for a load of abuse too often.

All family's are nuts if you ask me. I never met one that was not. Some just hide it better than others.

Well done for putting it out there.

Blue

My mum used to tell me how she had forgiven her parents, and how she had got over how they treated her. Yet she would still hysterically bring them up everytime I wanted to express any kind of negative emotion at her. If I felt angry, she would make me feel guilty by reminding me how "her mother made her feel like shit". That was end of conversation - she used the guilt of her own past to make me shut up and pretend everything was ok, and I was supposed to belive thaqt this constituted healing and forgiveness. "I moved on from it" - implied message - "so should you - right now and forget exactly what it is that you were angry at me about".

My mum had not healed or forgiven - she was still as bitter and hurt by it as ever - she had just done a great job of masking it from herself and then bringing it up when she needed a convenient guilting stick. She reminded me time and agin that she was the victim, she was the one who should be protected. I grew up trying to 'save' her - like I was the parent, yet treated as if I was an incompetent waifling - the classic double bind. Responsibility without power. I payed with my own mental health for the recovery she claimed to had made but never did.

As you say, not popping round too often ... :(

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something i think ive just registered, mine seems to stem from creating worry for my parents. got bullied, IM bad for making them worry about it, i get a bad mark, IM bad for not trying hard enough and not making them proud - therefore they worry for my future, i have mh problems, IM bad for making them worry, apparently i can change it if i want to immediately, i tried to tell someone what was happening to me, IM bad because i must be lying, if something was happening that would make it their fault so i had to say i made it up just to make them feel better, i moved away to go to university and make them proud, IM bad for making them worry because im not with them, i dont call for ONE night, IM bad because they worry something MUST have happened. yikes this could actually go on for a while.

ya know its odd, i did know this stuff, but i didnt KNOW it, that make sense? as if all the pieces were sitting over the right shaped holes but they hadnt quite slotted in. not sure if it makes anything any easier, but its kinda satisfactory.

xxx

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I found this http://www.talkaboutrelationships.net/data...ndout_color.pdf

"

Q: Have I engaged in any acts of

overt muscling?

• Demanding sex and/or obedience.

• Controlling resources: $, freedom, time.

• Using violence or threats to control my

partner.

• Showing anger and contempt for my

partner in public (includes: attacks on

character or appearance as well as acting

as if my partner is invisible).

• Shouting or intimidating with words or

gestures (includes: sarcasm, mocking,

finger-pointing, cornering, taunting).

• Blaming, belittling, interrogating, namecalling.

• Hammering a point to death.

• Ganging up on my partner by bringing in

kids, in-laws, other allies.

• Excusing my bad behavior by blaming my

partner for it: “I wouldn’t drink if you

weren’t so controlling.”

• Doing any of the above in front of our

children.

Q: Have I engaged in any acts of

covert defiance?

• Withdrawing or Avoiding (includes: the

garage, the kids, work, school, alcohol,

etc.).

• Stonewalling (includes: the silent treatment,

refusing to talk).

• Withholding affection, attention, tenderness,

appreciation, sex.

• Making excuses for why I didn’t followthrough

. . . again.

• Making and breaking promises and agreements.

• Procrastinating.

• Chronic “forgetting”: “Oops. . . You know

how my memory is.”

• Chronic lateness.

• Chronic apologies without subsequent

changes in behavior.

• Flaunting my affection for others in front

of my partner.

• Lying or hiding the truth.

• Bad-mouthing my partner to our children,

friends, family.

• Developing a social network that excludes

my partner.

"

And I see myself as well as everyone else doing these all-too-human things, but at least I'm trying to get mindful about my behavior and stop it at long last. As I work on doing this, I am growing in compassion. Because if it's so hard for me to stop doing this shitty stuff, it's at least equally hard for other people, especially if they aren't aware or even trying. And if pain is what causes this behavior in me, it could be that people I view as aggressors against me are in the same kind of pain.

My dad's thing was he, too, was so stuck in his own painful childhood that he never grew up. He became a full time alcoholic at age 14 and his personal growth stopped there. He was always so sure that everyone was out to get him, that he figured he'd get us first. He said it in so many words countless times, that he was only getting defensive because we were "attacking" him, that he would destroy us out of vengeance. I know that I was not an easy baby; I was a colicky one who cried relentlessly day and night and couldn't be soothed. This must have seemed like an onslaught to his messed up head. So we started off badly right from the beginning, and although it was certainly in no way my fault that I was a difficult child, I can certainly see via my own experience parenting another difficult child how much it can make a parent hate oneself and take that hatred out on anyone/everyone else. And then his behavior became self-fulfilling. I DID manipulate around him and hated him so much that I would engage in vicious arguments and fantasize about killing him. Eventually, things got so bad that we were having physical fights and I ran away from home. I finished high school living on my friend's bedroom floor (with the third highest GPA of my graduating class yeehaw! Success was always my best revenge for my dad.) For me, forgiveness came when I had a mystical enlightenment experience. I became so grateful for his harshness and atheistic pessimism because I never would have had to grow spiritually unless his meanspirited spirit came to haunt me. He is the perfect instruction manual for how NOT to parent, which is perhaps much more clear than a manual on how TO (most of those I find either heartless or hopelessly idealistic.)

I live in constant fear that I am like him.

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Quote: "Is it right to continually shame the person for their flaws, adding that you love them...."

This is what I mean by "slapping you up and down."

"Down" shaming you for your flaws and then "up" saying "But I love you".

Sorry so late on my reply. Elke

P.S. - one of the first books I ever read on BPD given to me by a friend is called: "When Shame makes you Ill". The author claims that shame can cause BPD. I dont want to get this post out of context - hope you dont mind me adding this.

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