You're Pathetic

[jades]

i relate to alot of what yall have said my mom and i have a relationship so intrtwined its awful yesterday she made me feel guilty for all i put her thru for the last year for me suffering and grieving cause bill died how f d up is that i should feel sorry for u ha it just makes me want me want to hurt myself is the bad thing shes watching my bank account and says if i spend one dime to call ny bf with a calling card that cost 5 fn dollars shell cut me off and never speak to me again oh and im cut off from drinking click then she calls back are u ok? actin sweet ur not cutting urself cause ill put u in a home aaaggghhh i hate it but i cant bring myself to hate her maybe thats why i disoccociiate and go off on her lol sorry for the ramble just keyed up atm

[jades]

bitch bless her heart lol

[Roses]

My hubbie and I got married when I was 23. We were supposed to marry when I was 18 but I couldn't go through with it because I was SO scared of becoming like my parents. How strong must that feeling be to walk away from the man you love because of it. Luckily things turned out OK but back then it was awful. So, Cat, I fully understand why you live in contstant fear cos I do too and especially more now I am a Mum.

[walker]

for me, it was different

controlled

there was a lot of anger from my dad,

but mum controlled it, stopped him hitting us - but couldnt stop the terrifying roaring shouting. - or the endless rows and indecision

but we were not alowed

NICE people were quiet people, people that didnt get jealous, people that didnt lose their temper, people who didnt show off, people who didnt impinge on anyone elses existence

SO I was NOT NICE

How could I be, when I had to be brought indoors and the windows closed in case people heard me, because i wanted what other people had, because i shouted when my brother hit me, or cried when he called me names, because I wanted to be on stage - OMG the greatest show off of all,

because I wanted to tell people about myself - but NO NO NO that is against the rules, they are NOT interested in you, they have their own lives to lead

Even this week, I mentioned a wish to call and see my old music teacher - WELL YOU CANT JUST GO ROUND THERE

Oh no

GOD FORBID - I should turn up on someones doorstep - the worst crime of all , and how they should HATE to see me there, probably stone me for coming

But all the time - 'you have so much going for you, strength of character'I' dont have , make more of yourself,

Yes, BUILD ME UP and CRUSH ME

I cannot deal with this,

I do not understand it, and it is destroying me, - because they showed and did so much for me

I was so lucky compared to others on here

I was safe and loved,

but I feel shit

sorry, lost in my head a bit, sorry

[Roses]

But what is 'safe and loved'? To the outside world I was that too, but behind closed doors was different. I was fed and clothed and taken to school and on holiday and to clubs but I was told "never tell anyone, it is between us, your brother is sorry and I love you".

[walker]

oh yes,

dont EVER say anything to anyone outside the home - it is none of their business, and they are not intrested

that is why even coming here and talking, is beating me up - each time I speak, or write - i am commiting a crime against my family - failing, letting them down

but i think you all had much harder times that me

[Roses]

Walker, it doesn't matter if it happened once or a hundred times the emotional impact can be the same. Do not feel you have to compare your experiences with other people's and do not feel you have to justify your pain. Sometimes the pain is there for no reason at all, is just chemical inbalance. Does that mean that person is unjustified in their pain? NO! It is real for them and therefore it is a valid reason to seek support.

I think you're great so please stop beating yourself up. xxx

[GateKeeper_]

i like the topic. its really pleasant. (not sarcasm).

its poetic.

only you can know what you feel IMHO.

personally i think being human IS a disability so... i think everyone is disabled.

when they have the label its much more comforting though. to me anyways.

[hummm_mabbe]

something i think ive just registered, mine seems to stem from creating worry for my parents. got bullied, IM bad for making them worry about it, i get a bad mark, IM bad for not trying hard enough and not making them proud - therefore they worry for my future, i have mh problems, IM bad for making them worry, apparently i can change it if i want to immediately, i tried to tell someone what was happening to me, IM bad because i must be lying, if something was happening that would make it their fault so i had to say i made it up just to make them feel better, i moved away to go to university and make them proud, IM bad for making them worry because im not with them, i dont call for ONE night, IM bad because they worry something MUST have happened. yikes this could actually go on for a while.

ya know its odd, i did know this stuff, but i didnt KNOW it, that make sense? as if all the pieces were sitting over the right shaped holes but they hadnt quite slotted in. not sure if it makes anything any easier, but its kinda satisfactory.

xxx

It means a hell of a lot, because its continual invalidation, shame and guilt - a combination known to send people fruitee da loop Its not nice, but for me realising how EVERYTHING seems to come back to a feeling of shame, I feel like I have got the problem by the knackers

Huggle ti fluffit

[hummm_mabbe]

Quote: "Is it right to continually shame the person for their flaws, adding that you love them...."

This is what I mean by "slapping you up and down."

"Down" shaming you for your flaws and then "up" saying "But I love you".

Sorry so late on my reply. Elke

P.S. - one of the first books I ever read on BPD given to me by a friend is called: "When Shame makes you Ill". The author claims that shame can cause BPD. I dont want to get this post out of context - hope you dont mind me adding this.

Noooooooo tis good, thank you Elke!!

I think my thoughts had been starting to waiver in that direction too The 'invalidating environment' sems to come naturally as part of a shaming environment, so for me it feels like its all clicking into place, a bit like Rael said with her jigsaw pieces

Wheeeeeeeeeeee

<< happie today

[jades]

glad u r figuring it out want my mom please bless her heart lol take her for free ill ship to u glad ur happy today xxxxx

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo to everybod

I am sooo pleased because there are a ton of replies to wake up to (always makes me happy) but so many I dont know where to start, walker, catspiracy, jades, gatekeeper and roses, you all said stuff that made me go "YES YES YES!" (not in a 'herbal essences' way but in an agreement way).

The thing that struck me about all of the replies is the way that we have all ACCEPTED these messages at a deep gut level, PLUS the intertwining of love WITH the less-than-love. The poison in the nourishment, if you like.

With all of us, it was there, yet we do not consciously realise it - somehow its buried away, out of sight. Like Rael said, the pieces were hovering over the puzzle, but hadnt clicked into place yet. With all of us, we have felt a deep sense of shame over EVERYTHING that we are - not just over a couple of actions or things we regret, but it seems to literally penetrate to our core. Shame IS us, instead of "about us".

Like so many types of therapy say, these are messages that have been grained into us, probably since before we could even speak. It is the feeling that comes from ACTIONS not just words - a face that mum would pull, the way dad would ignore us. The implied message of being "attacked before you attack him" (sorry Jades just wanted to use that example, hope you dont mind?), the implied message of needing to be removed from somewhere so others dont see or hear, the message being "you are unacceptable" (sorry walker, wanted to use your example! Hope not upsetting ... Sorry).

When you read psych books they say "oh you were TOLD you were useless or bad all the time" - but I think with us, there may not have been those exact words. Instead, it was IMPLIED in everything we do, it was an undercurrent in every conversation we had with our parents. The WORDS we remember are the ones that follow - "but we love you", "its for your own good". Our BODIES remember the implicit message, the unspoken one, communicated by the ACTIONS. We try to remember 'the' incident that might have made us this way, some liferaft floating on the sea we can grab onto and say "thats the one" - but there is no one incident. Far from being the liferaft, the problem is the sea itself - the background music that was ALWAYS there. Just as you cannot remember what you ate for dinner exactly one month ago, because you eat everyday, you cant remember 'just one' incident because that message was there, everyday.

Our MINDS remember the words - the ones so at odds with what we FELT, but learned to bury because FEELING WAS WRONG. In the battle between what we have always felt in some distant corner (and which sometimes suddenly takes an overwhelming centre stage, destroying things around us), and what we remember hearing, what we heard wins out because we learned to distrust our emotions - to bury them away because they made mum sad or angry, or made them worry. When we try to think about the concept that we were not to blame, that perhaps mum or dad did wrong, all we can remember is the words and the guiilt. AND SO WE BLAME OURSELVES.

You guys have made this thread absolutely fascinating, and it brings me hope

:bigarmhug[1]: :bigarmhug[1]: :bigarmhug[1]:

[hummm_mabbe]

glad u r figuring it out want my mom please bless her heart lol take her for free ill ship to u glad ur happy today xxxxx

Awww HUG

S'ok pls keep a hold of your mum, I dont know how to feed those things and they seem to leave tidy patches everywhere

[jades]

thanks that helps me alot i didnt figure that out but for those of us still dependant on their moms ie me how do i work thru this daily torture she guilts me with everyhting even for supporting me thru bills death this year how evil is that bless her heart i feel so bad for just grieving which i should have done ?

[walker]

thank you ross for starting it

it is what i said, to the mh team, when they gave a shit - i kept telling them, its me, its who I am, it is part of my being, dont take it away or it will be like losing an arm

i always remember someone saying how her depresseion was completely seperate, something that had just come along and ruined her good life

I was astounded - I have NEVER felt like that

for me, this isnt depression, it is who I am, and I guess - because of the rot that is in the core

and going home (last weekend) makes it SO SO hard to identify, as I lose what i am thinking, and become theirs again

How do you feel anger at them

I just dont know

I have done, occasionally, for moments, but no

the people in my head, are them, they are mr and mrs judgment, they are all the people that have ever reinforced those original voices, teachers, friends, husband, in-laws, they are all there - screaming and screaming- day in, day out

And somewhere is a tiny, microscopic t, who is here, writing, who cries, who want to go to T but is being told not to bcause she doesnt need it, she is just making a fuss

oh F*CK this

SHAME, yes

GUILT, yes

I AM JUST THE WRONG PERSON

GOD FORBID anyone should see, hear or notice me

NO NO - the world will come to an end if that happens

I am surprised they didnt lock me away, I must have been SO embarrasing, and yet she says they are proud of me

??????????????????????????????????????

messed up, absolutely bloody messed up

[hummm_mabbe]

thanks that helps me alot i didnt figure that out but for those of us still dependant on their moms ie me how do i work thru this daily torture she guilts me with everyhting even for supporting me thru bills death this year how evil is that bless her heart i feel so bad for just grieving which i should have done ?

Hullo Missie Jades

Its a hard one to be in, because right now you are still a part of the environment that has contributed to the way you are. I know that in schema therapy, especially for BPD, if the family is sufficiently damaging (wish I could find a better phrase really) the therapist will try to get the person out and in her own place. Because the family has such deep tentacles that go right into your heart, trying to use techniques or methods to be assertive can help, but often its just too hard to make them work because as soon as you are assertive, you feel an overwhelming wave of guilt and shame.

In an ideal world, I would say to try and move out and get your own place whilst finding a nice cuddlie therapist, but that is probably not going to work for you at the moment. Are you in therapy, or does mum disapprove of that too? :(

[hummm_mabbe]

thank you ross for starting it

it is what i said, to the mh team, when they gave a shit - i kept telling them, its me, its who I am, it is part of my being, dont take it away or it will be like losing an arm

i always remember someone saying how her depresseion was completely seperate, something that had just come along and ruined her good life

I was astounded - I have NEVER felt like that

for me, this isnt depression, it is who I am, and I guess - because of the rot that is in the core

and going home (last weekend) makes it SO SO hard to identify, as I lose what i am thinking, and become theirs again

How do you feel anger at them

I just dont know

I have done, occasionally, for moments, but no

the people in my head, are them, they are mr and mrs judgment, they are all the people that have ever reinforced those original voices, teachers, friends, husband, in-laws, they are all there - screaming and screaming- day in, day out

And somewhere is a tiny, microscopic t, who is here, writing, who cries, who want to go to T but is being told not to bcause she doesnt need it, she is just making a fuss

oh F*CK this

SHAME, yes

GUILT, yes

I AM JUST THE WRONG PERSON

GOD FORBID anyone should see, hear or notice me

NO NO - the world will come to an end if that happens

I am surprised they didnt lock me away, I must have been SO embarrasing, and yet she says they are proud of me

??????????????????????????????????????

messed up, absolutely bloody messed up

Hi Missie Walkie T

I know that this may not help in any grand way, but to MY mind, the fact that you have responded so strongly to this thread, and identified with the messages that others have written, shows me that you very very strongly fit the pattern that we have been talking about.

[walker]

I know

and she is very small and very scared

[jades]

i do live on my own but she pays for it and drives me everywhere but she guilts me over everything i see t today t wants me to be more independant im trying but everyhting i try if i do she ropes me back in and now she is threatening to put me in a home i love her so much but hate her at same time and of course that makes me feel so guilty i sh or become anorexic anorexic is the route im on right now i dont know how to get out of this cycle i sometimes wish i could just curl up and die but then shed just keep calling and leaving messages why arent u calling me aaghhggh

[hummm_mabbe]

I know

and she is very small and very scared

Little T?

Well, whilst you can see her, maybe she is sitting in the corner, looking sad or alone, tell her that she did not deserve to feel that way, and maybe find just that little bit of anger enough to feel "yes thats right - she didnt deserve to feel that way". See those little arms stretching out for a cuddle, and maybe become the person who wants to give it to her.

**feels a bit tearful**

[hummm_mabbe]

i do live on my own but she pays for it and drives me everywhere but she guilts me over everything i see t today t wants me to be more independant im trying but everyhting i try if i do she ropes me back in and now she is threatening to put me in a home i love her so much but hate her at same time and of course that makes me feel so guilty i sh or become anorexic anorexic is the route im on right now i dont know how to get out of this cycle i sometimes wish i could just curl up and die but then shed just keep calling and leaving messages why arent u calling me aaghhggh

Hullo

My heartie bit is all wide open and a bit hurtie now, seems this thread is really connecting to something for me.

I know how hard it must be, I can relate to what you are saying very much. Its good that you have a therapist, and I think it says a lot about what mum really thinks by the fact she wants to put you in a home, that makes me very sad to read so I cannot imagine how, deep down, it must make you feel. Inside the BPD mind, theres this belief that somehow she is 'right' to act that way, but outside in the real world, it is wrong - belive me, it is wrong. It is hurtful, heartless and makes me very sad for you to read.

Makes me want to give you a cuddle, and tell you its ok to feel sad, because I would, and I would need to feel sad :(

[jades]

thanks hun i think im gonna call her this morning and tell her off i know shell get mad but what have i got to lose im already on the line and i cant take anymore of this guilt i must finally stand up for myself itll take some valium but i think ican do it what should i say u think i was thinking i cant take that u keep making me feel guilty for eveything i dont know if u realize u make me feel that way but its killing me and of course it will then turn into i didnt realize i wass such a bad mother blah blah any suggestions

[hummm_mabbe]

thanks hun i think im gonna call her this morning and tell her off i know shell get mad but what have i got to lose im already on the line and i cant take anymore of this guilt i must finally stand up for myself itll take some valium but i think ican do it what should i say u think i was thinking i cant take that u keep making me feel guilty for eveything i dont know if u realize u make me feel that way but its killing me and of course it will then turn into i didnt realize i wass such a bad mother blah blah any suggestions

Hi Jadey poople (I am feeling huggie so I am playing with your name )

I would say write down, in a letter, the things that you want to say. Dont mail it just yet, but write it all out. When you see the rwords on the page you will start to see what you actually feel about them, because its very likely you wont know what you feel until you actually write / read them ... tis weird I know. Then I would take that letter to your T, and tell him / her that you feel like you want very much to say all this stuff. Having your T read it through will add another layer of concreteness to your emotions. Its weird going through this part because in a large way we come to see just how disconnected from our own feelings we really are.

I think that in some way you feel very strongly that you need to stand up for yourself, and you also know how she will respond. I think that its going to be something very important for you to say those words, although I would want you to be sure that you do not think you might SH if she reacts poorly? (I think you mentioned you do SH from time to time?). That is why it will be good to write it out, and consider the counterarguments she may come up with.

Perhaps rather than make it "everything Ive ever wanted to say", just try asserting yourself a LITTLE bit? Tell her she makes you feel so guilty when she says certain things, and even though you know she is trying to help, it actually makes it harder because you feel so wretched when she talks to you that way. I can hear my own mothers reactions to these words as Im typing (oh so Im a terrible mother!! >> instant guilt) so I can guess how you feel it might go. I dont know, i feel like I should suggest a load of self assertiveness books, but I know that for me they wouldnt work because I felt so much guilt. Confrontations, genuine, deep ones should really happen much further down the line in therapy - but in your situation its more pressing because you live with her.

Perhaps some other folks here can help you with wording and what to say?

[jades]

i couldnt wait i had to do it while i had the courage but it all came out as a big cry fest of ur hurting me with all this guilt all the time i dont know if u know ur doing it but im hurting myself cause i feel so guilty and so bad she immediatly launshed into now uve ruined my day so i said see guilt now i feel guilty will u please get theropy cause i cat take this anymore and she said yes shes een reading a bpd book for parents and she feels guilty now so of course now i feel worse but at least shes getting theropy and im a crying mess xxxxxx

[jades]

what do u think hmmmm