You're Pathetic

[hummm_mabbe]

i couldnt wait i had to do it while i had the courage but it all came out as a big cry fest of ur hurting me with all this guilt all the time i dont know if u know ur doing it but im hurting myself cause i feel so guilty and so bad she immediatly launshed into now uve ruined my day so i said see guilt now i feel guilty will u please get theropy cause i cat take this anymore and she said yes shes een reading a bpd book for parents and she feels guilty now so of course now i feel worse but at least shes getting theropy and im a crying mess xxxxxx

Hi Jades

Firstly, I want to say that I am totally awed by what you just did. Its hard to say it without sounding cheesy, but you just did something immensely courageous and I actually feel a sense of pride reading that you did that.

I expect right now your emotions are in a swirl, guilt, shame, anger, confusion, frustration. Bits of the conversation are probably coming back to you with an accompanying sense of fear or panic - "what did I say that for??" maybe. This is ok - it is your programmed reaction, how you have been conditioned to react. You have just stood up to the source of pain AND love, a mixture that is so confusing and painful to all of us. You are afraid of losing the love, but you needed to confront the pain, and you have done that. That is why its so courageous and I for one am touched by it.

Its good that your mum has decided to look into BPD and is perhaps seeing some of the ways that she may have contributed. At some point you may have an adult conversation where you are able to say "when you did this, it made me feel terrible". Hopefully she will be able to accept that, without adding guilt, and say "I am sorry, and I want things to change".

The fact that you can cry is good - I tend to seethe and panic, and actually recently being able to cry has been good for me. Is it a crying as in a sense of loss or pain, or crying out of panic and powerlessness? I am hoping thaty in some way you feel a sense of relief, perhaps a bit of empowerment, but also some sense that a chapter has begin to come to an end for you and so you feel sad for what has been, because whether you know it or not yet, there is much that has been lost for you emotionally, and you have hurt for a long time. And that is something that anyone would , and should cry about.

It would be good if you could keep writing about this, especially if mum comes back to you on it either in a positive or negative way. I think its going to be helpful to have an outside view on things, just in case the old guilt starts to weedle its way back in, you know?

BIG BIG cuddles

[jades]

thanks hummm i dont know why im crying crying is new to me too i just exploded i had a panic attack afterward and had to take a vaium so im caming down but like u said im rethinking conversation over and over i think i did right thing and i cant belive i actually did that she even is letting me call bf today but she wants me to have mh worker to come visit me everyday so shes less involved and she was saying i was shortening her life but hey i did it finally i am sorta proud she wants me to live in home i told her it scares me and to never bring it up again phew that was rough im glad i dont have to do it again bless my heart lol

[hummm_mabbe]

thanks hummm i dont know why im crying crying is new to me too i just exploded i had a panic attack afterward and had to take a vaium so im caming down but like u said im rethinking conversation over and over i think i did right thing and i cant belive i actually did that she even is letting me call bf today but she wants me to have mh worker to come visit me everyday so shes less involved and she was saying i was shortening her life but hey i did it finally i am sorta proud she wants me to live in home i told her it scares me and to never bring it up again phew that was rough im glad i dont have to do it again bless my heart lol

You've done awesome

**wipes little tear away and smiles**

[jades]

thanks m\hmmm u gave me courage hugs xxxx

[walker]

Jades

I sit in awe

well done

[Roses]

Well done Jades, I am soooooooo proud of you mate xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[jades]

thanks roses xxxxxx

[Rael]

really proud of you hun

xxx

[catspiracy]

Wow, Jades, I am impressed. number 1, you confronted her in the first place, and you did it "textbook perfect" with I-statements. number 2, when she tried to turn it back on you, you stuck to your guns, which forced her to look in the mirror. number 3, to me it seems you've located the source of her bad behavior: her own ocean of guilt. Wow, just wow. Now there's hope, because once you know what's causing a disease you can take the right medicine. She's drowning in guilt and trying to cope by having you share the load. This places you in control of the situation because you have the big picture; meanwhile, she is still thrashing around blindly. I just finished a novel, "People of the Weeping Eye", where the shaman teaches the young Contrary (a kind of psychic but you can tell she's schizophrenic) how to be a rock in the stream of voices. He tells her the mantra: "I am a stone, impervious to the endless river of voices." You are a stone, smooth and strong, Jades, and the turbulent river of your mother's guilt complex can flow around you without touching you. It's only water, it's not yours. When your rock is fully solid to you, what a rush of healing compassion you will be capable of for your mother!

[jades]

thanks cat and rael i feel proud :)

[jades]

oh i like the rock story im a rock is my new mantra :)

[catspiracy]

Smiling hard and glowing from the inside out!!!!!!!!!!

Love, love love!

[jades]

im happy hun i have t in a few mins wish me luck ttyl :lol:

[wednesday]

Ross

I also feel this shame on a daily basis. I can also intellectualise it all and it isks me no end that logic does not overcome the emotion. i think this is where therapists come in and why we can't recover from any self help book or with any amount of self analysis. Sometimes you just need someone you trust to tell you that its all right.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hulllooo everybods

I really like the way this thread went, it was good and happie and helpie. Also made me cry a bit in places

I have been really thinking about the shame thing, and it seems now that I have started to talk about it, I can see it. I realise that every action I perform, every conversation I have - that same shame, that inner commentary that I can never win with - its always there.

Those sudden shifts to feeling panicky, frustrated, angry. The feeling of rage and fear if someone nudges me, or looks at me or insults me. Always underneath whatever strong emotion that seems most immediate, is shame. Today I started counting when feelings of shame came up for me becuz its something I used to do in CBT. In one hour I counted 150 shameful thoughts and feelings.

I cant wait to take this to therapy and share it, and start exploring it more. It really feels like I have found the source of how I feel.

Wednesday - has your T started to work with your detached protector? Thats the mode stopping you feeling :)

[wednesday]

Wednesday - has your T started to work with your detached protector? Thats the mode stopping you feeling

Not really Ross.

My newer therapist is a man and he finds it all a bit 'touchy/feely'. He retreats into CBT speak too often and I keep having to remind him that this is not enough for me. He does try to deal with the underlying issue of my frozen feelings but I don't know that he can help me open them up because he cannot use the language of compassionate mind therapy.

He has his strengths and he knows me really well. I am not in a position to find another therapist-there is just noone else practising around here.

T

[hummm_mabbe]

Wednesday - has your T started to work with your detached protector? Thats the mode stopping you feeling

Not really Ross.

My newer therapist is a man and he finds it all a bit 'touchy/feely'. He retreats into CBT speak too often and I keep having to remind him that this is not enough for me. He does try to deal with the underlying issue of my frozen feelings but I don't know that he can help me open them up because he cannot use the language of compassionate mind therapy.

He has his strengths and he knows me really well. I am not in a position to find another therapist-there is just noone else practising around here.

Hulloo wednesday

Oh dear, is he a technique tactician? They can be good sometimes, but if they use a spanner when you need a feather duster it can be difficult

Something I found really helpful is watching movies, reading books and listening to music that is sad or emotionally powerful. I know I have themes of feeling alone and disconnetced, not listened to, and of abandonment, but getting to the sadness that should be under them would not happen because of DP.

We have only done a little bit of work with DP so far, but what I started to notice (and this has always been the case) is that certain themes in certain films would suddenly make me cry out of all proportion to the actual storyline - schema attack! I have been deliberately searching for things that do this, after exploring the times I do remember that I felt this way, or just the generral feeling. Like as I think back to school, I remember always feeling alone and unwanted. I could see some images, but not much emotion came along.

Then I was listening to Famous Last Words by My Chemical Romance, and when I heard the lines "I am not afraid to keep on living, I am not afraid to walk this world alone" it suddenly hit something - a seam of hurt and sadness I had never known was there. As I was listening to the song, images of childhood came out, like a river. The song was metaphorical, symbolic. The same thing happened when I read "For one more day " and "Tuesdays with Morrie", both stories about losing a connection with a parent figure. The things that set me off always seem to be symbolic - like a mum doing the dishes and saying "dad is gone, hes not coming back", and the little boy being confused. The image of that suddenly sparked a huge outpouring of pain, and images of when my dad left us came flooding back.

Its never really words alone that do it, it seems to need to be something almost poetic, or someone making me feel its ok to feel sad.

Maybe it will help to try that? Spend a day thinking about the issues that have always been there for you, and then try watching films or reading books that explore those themes? It seems that I find it hard to cry for myself, but when its someone elses pain, its ok to cry for THEM. Its just that once it starts to come, it becomes mine. As I have been crying more and more, the fear of cryig, and the guilt and shame associated with it, has become less. Crying is hugely relieving, I even laugh afterwards - its like a weight is lifted. You deserve to have that weight lifted too.

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

Hey I found another shame/BPD article I cant get the full text becuz they want me to pay for it, the poopleheads, but here is the abstract. Hell yeh:

Abstract:

CROWE M. (2004) Journal of Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing11, 327–334

Never good enough – part 1: shame or borderline personality disorder?

This paper takes a deconstructive approach to the historical, clinical, and social context of the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder (BPD). This is undertaken by providing an overview of pertinent literature, an examination of the diagnostic criteria, a discussion of the development of the shame affect, a discussion of women's narratives and a reinterpretation of the symptoms of BPD as an overwhelming shame response. An argument is developed that shame is an integral but neglected feature in the experiences of mental distress that are characteristic of BPD. This discussion is supported with evidence of shame in narrative quotes from women with a diagnosis of BPD. There are striking similarities between what is currently pathologized as BPD and an overwhelming shame response. Recognizing the influence of shame may assist mental health nurses to provide mental health nursing care that best meets the needs of women experiencing these symptoms.

No more shame!

Mabbe I should make that my slogan? :)

[wednesday]

Hulloo wednesday

Oh dear, is he a technique tactician? They can be good sometimes, but if they use a spanner when you need a feather duster it can be difficult

Something I found really helpful is watching movies, reading books and listening to music that is sad or emotionally powerful. I know I have themes of feeling alone and disconnetced, not listened to, and of abandonment, but getting to the sadness that should be under them would not happen because of DP.

We have only done a little bit of work with DP so far, but what I started to notice (and this has always been the case) is that certain themes in certain films would suddenly make me cry out of all proportion to the actual storyline - schema attack! I have been deliberately searching for things that do this, after exploring the times I do remember that I felt this way, or just the generral feeling. Like as I think back to school, I remember always feeling alone and unwanted. I could see some images, but not much emotion came along.

Then I was listening to Famous Last Words by My Chemical Romance, and when I heard the lines "I am not afraid to keep on living, I am not afraid to walk this world alone" it suddenly hit something - a seam of hurt and sadness I had never known was there. As I was listening to the song, images of childhood came out, like a river. The song was metaphorical, symbolic. The same thing happened when I read "For one more day " and "Tuesdays with Morrie", both stories about losing a connection with a parent figure. The things that set me off always seem to be symbolic - like a mum doing the dishes and saying "dad is gone, hes not coming back", and the little boy being confused. The image of that suddenly sparked a huge outpouring of pain, and images of when my dad left us came flooding back.

Its never really words alone that do it, it seems to need to be something almost poetic, or someone making me feel its ok to feel sad.

Maybe it will help to try that? Spend a day thinking about the issues that have always been there for you, and then try watching films or reading books that explore those themes? It seems that I find it hard to cry for myself, but when its someone elses pain, its ok to cry for THEM. Its just that once it starts to come, it becomes mine. As I have been crying more and more, the fear of cryig, and the guilt and shame associated with it, has become less. Crying is hugely relieving, I even laugh afterwards - its like a weight is lifted. You deserve to have that weight lifted too.

Ross

Yes! That's a brilliant description of him- a tactician. He is a very clever man and very skillful but he brings out the detached protector in me and I want to have an intellectual discussion about this other person who is me, rather than experiencing emotions. One day i said proudly that I had cried at a film and he didn't take in what I was saying at all. He criticised it as allowing emotions to be manipulated by Hollywood whereas I see it as allowing myself (at long last) to feel emotions in a safe way.

I agree with you on this -I think that film and media is something to explore, anything that can allow me to bring out the emotion I feel without being overwhelmed by it.

In my perfect ego world--life should not be troubled my emotions. That is not in the model at all. Emotions are messy and just ruin everything.

[hummm_mabbe]

Yes, mabbe get the emotions flowing when alone, it starts to show you that they are there. Whats more, after you see what might be stored up, you can never go back to how you were - it opens up something inside. Its like discovering a part of you that you thought was dead.

[roxy222]

hey, this is very off track, but when I read the post title this is what struck me, the actual topic was then a surprise, but I think I still want to post this.

pathos (not that I can spell) is a genuine emotion and a valid one, genuinely feeling pity for someone because of their situation shouldnt be seen as a negative. I was a pathetic child, I see myself now as I was and can say that, sometimes the needs that are still thrown up by that are also pathetic, but I still love me, and I can still feel love and acceptance and compassion for the child I was. this is hopw I read the title, as in I am pathetic and I still love me. thre is no shame in this, and there is no shame in love. we can feel pathos, in the true sence, for someone we love and still love them, but if we genuinely love them we will not shame them with false pity and love. shame has no part in love.

[jades]

ive heard it said shame has no place in gods plan for us either xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[hummm_mabbe]

ive heard it said shame has no place in gods plan for us either xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"When you rid yourselves of guilt and shame and tear off your old rags and trample them beneath your feet like children. Then you'll see the Son of He who is the living God." Mr Jesus, in a passage excluded from the Christian bible but included in the Gnostic Gospels.

[jades]

see told ya i heard it lol

[jades]

wanna see your brush now?lol