hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 HulloI wanted to start a new thread about shame, because I realised just how core it is to my prollems. The more I speak to others folks here, the more I feel like its a common theme for us bippidees and oppidees ("other personality disorders" ). The odd thing is, I have been carrying it around for years and never noticed it - it popped up in masks and wearing different outfits to try and make out like its not really there. I suppose the whole point of shame is to keep something hidden, so why WOULD it pop up obviously and go "YES ITS MEEEEEEE"... ??I realised that during my one year of being healed. before I relapsed, what my therapist had done at the time was heal my shame - at least in the moment, the here and now. We didnt address the past and so I didnt quite internalise my new anti-shame approach to life, but I do now realise what he did to stop my shame taking hold. I might blither about that at some point too Anyway, I wanted to start this thread to post this article on how shame SHOULD (caveat: erm, IMO) be handled in therapy - and I realise how few therapists Ive had that a) even recognise it (not many) and b] know how to deal with it. There was a research paper I read that found many therapists, because of their own unhealed shame, choose to act as though it doesnt exist, and that when shame is not recognised and treated with the respect it deserves, the therapy takes much longer than needs be, and also sets the person up for relapse. Certainly for me this all rings true and it seems that shame comes along with invalidation, something us Bippidees know AAALLLL about Anyhoo, nuff blithering - this is the link to the article, called the treatment of shame, which is kind of an appropriate title. Yep.Mabbe if you find that you have lots of buried shame hiding under piles of sand or dressing up as a pantomime cow / other emotions, then this will help to give some insight on what might be needed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 hey rossie i couldnt get my firefox to let mr open it pooo but it said twelve step so thats got to be an aa article so ill look it up in the big gook of aa thanks i found shame running all thru my life too recently and guilt is big too hugs xxxxxxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisy duck Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 hey rossie i couldnt get my firefox to let mr open it pooo but it said twelve step so thats got to be an aa article so ill look it up in the big gook of aa thanks i found shame running all thru my life too recently and guilt is big too hugs xxxxxxxxxmmmm yes...guilt and shame...worse feelingsxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roses Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I was gonna say what defines the difference between guilt and shame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 hey rossie i couldnt get my firefox to let mr open it pooo but it said twelve step so thats got to be an aa article so ill look it up in the big gook of aa thanks i found shame running all thru my life too recently and guilt is big too hugs xxxxxxxxxIts not actually 'the' twelve steps like in AA, it just happens to have 12 main points to make! I thought that too. Its really informative and everything it said really clicked into place for me, little suspicions and feelings Ive had for ages about what seems to work in therapy for me, and also what makes me angry or feel abandoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I was gonna say what defines the difference between guilt and shame?Guilt is a disappointment in yourself for having done something bad, and is directed at the behaviour itself.Shame is the sense that you are entirely flawed, bad, unlovable and evil either for that thing you did, or just generally, and is directed at the core of who you are.If you feel ashamed, then you feel that every atom of yourself is bad and worthless. If you feel guilty, you are disappointed only in one behaviour you did but its no reflection on the core of your being.Guilt is healthier and should last a short time, like grieivng, but shame is forever (until its dealt with) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i tend to confuse one with the other like my mom makes me feel guilty and im therfore ashamed of who i am as well as guilty does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roses Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yeah, when I think about it I feel ashamed of feeling guilty and then if I talk about it I feel guilty about being so ashamed. Fucking no hope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i tend to confuse one with the other like my mom makes me feel guilty and im therfore ashamed of who i am as well as guilty does that make sense?Yes totally. If you generally feel ashamed of yourself anyway, its REALLY REALLY EASY to make us feel guilty. Its like a stick in the back of our heads that people can use to control us.The more ashamed of ourselves as a person we are, the easier it is to feel guilty, and then further ashamed, of the things we do. Guilt should not always turn into shame, but shame will cause guilt and then more shame. Its a toxic cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yeah, when I think about it I feel ashamed of feeling guilty and then if I talk about it I feel guilty about being so ashamed. Fucking no hope!I think thats why it needs to be talked about in an environemtn that is accepting, supportive and non shaming. The more you are allowed to talk about it, and see that the person still accepts you and your feelings without trying to make them go away, dismiss them, tell you youre wrong etc, the more it starts to heal.The article describes the whole process much better than I can cuz I type too many mistakes.Oh the shame :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 ok i see then i got alot of that full to the brim mate tip me over and pour me out lol :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 you know what i was just thinking im more ashamed of being born with mh problems than i am of ben a clal girl or analcoholic is that strange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 you know what i was just thinking im more ashamed of being born with mh problems than i am of ben a clal girl or analcoholic is that strange?HullooooWell, you might say you were born with them - but I would also argue that maybe life put them there. Not to re-open the nature / nurture debate because I know that one always gets heated, but perhaps you can see that if others made you feel this way, then that is not your fault. However, shame will stop you from seeing that others had a role, and especially guilt. You have been shamed all your life and so you blame the core of your being for the problems you have. If you try to look at what mum might have done to cause it, you feel enormous guilt and possibly panic of abandonment or punishment. The part of you that says "its my fault because I am bad" is more powerful than the part of you that says "hang on, things should have been different". The fact that these automatic feelings of guilt and shame and self-blame probably gel extremely well with your day to day experiences with your parents is no co-incidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i guess thats true but for some reason i feel much more ashamed of who i am rather than mistakes ive made i dont forgive the mistakes ive made but i know ive chosen them at least i cant hate that as much as i can who i am its easy to try to block out what uve done but u cant block out who u r ive tried even switch personalities to get away from it but it still finds me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i guess thats true but for some reason i feel much more ashamed of who i am rather than mistakes ive made i dont forgive the mistakes ive made but i know ive chosen them at least i cant hate that as much as i can who i am its easy to try to block out what uve done but u cant block out who u r ive tried even switch personalities to get away from it but it still finds meYes indeedy - that is toxic shame, the type I am battling too. It takes a long time to recognise emotions and to understand the difference between them - this is because we have spent much of our lives divorced from feeling, or rather detached. Shame is the most painful human emotion to feel - it has started wars, it has caused murders. It can drive entire nations to hatred for generations. Most people will go to great lengths to not feel it - but for those of us that have been made to feel that, right at our very core, we are nothing BUT shame, we have no choice but to escape PERMANENTLY.Personality disorder, dissocation, the masks we wear, identities we try on - our false selves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 You know, this is my mask - being "Rossie Mr Knowledge Clever Person". I feel like I have to know stuff in order to have value, feel like I have to tell people things and have them like me for being clever.Really I should be wanting them to like me for me, instead of trying to earn it with brain power **feels lonely a bit after realising that** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 im new to emotions so yes i understand that i have did too so i can see that before bill i think i only cried before i was 8 then i decided never to do it again and shut off all my feelings its strange how a peron can go thru life without emotions it really makes u ralize how powerful the brain really is and how it reroutes things if its not allowed to function properly i still cant get firefox to let me open the article but i can only imagine it would be very helpful the question is is faith the basis of getting rid of shame or self nurturing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 im new to emotions so yes i understand that i have did too so i can see that before bill i think i only cried before i was 8 then i decided never to do it again and shut off all my feelings its strange how a peron can go thru life without emotions it really makes u ralize how powerful the brain really is and how it reroutes things if its not allowed to function properly i still cant get firefox to let me open the article but i can only imagine it would be very helpful the question is is faith the basis of getting rid of shame or self nurturing ?Sharing, acceptance and respect from others is the basis of getting rid of shame. If it is truly deep, buried and toxic, then the healing warmth of others is needed. For me, I tried every which way - every technique, method, drug, religion, praying - the only thing that heals my shame is the opposite of what shame is - feeling accepted and part of humanity DESPITE the sense of worthlessness within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i see but cant u feel accepted and lved and still feel shame not trying to be a pain im just so stuck in my brain on this i feel acceptance from others and love but im still ashamed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Here is the article in Word format. Its shareware so should not have copyright issues.Its not properly formatted cuz I copy pasted to word to make it work hopefully for you Try doing right-click > save as instead of just clicking, mabbe firefox is being poople at you.EDIT: Put the pdf up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i know why it wont let me its a stupid vista error oh my i cant get it thanks for trying my rossie :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i see but cant u feel accepted and lved and still feel shame not trying to be a pain im just so stuck in my brain on this i feel acceptance from others and love but im still ashamedYes you can - but many people who feel accepted and loved may still hide the things they feel are shameful. Its not always toxic, and people can have 'guilty secrets' for years. But if its the case that you feel your hidden shame is big enough, it tends to lead to a sense of not belonging, of being worthless in some way - an emptiness that even a sense of love and acceptance - for other things - cannot touch.For example, I felt valued for being clever. I got accolades and good marks. I came up to my mums expectations. This was approval and attention and for that, i felt some sense of love. However this is conditional - for most other things I felt stupid, incapable, and often disgusting or desipcable. I could get attention and approval - but not unconditional love - by being clever. In that much, I felt accepted and loved, but underneath I still felt shame.The things I was ashamed of I came to hide from all others, and the emotions attached to it grew and grew and came between me and the rest of humanity. I felt alone and unworthy of anyones attention or love, and my ;real self' got buried. All I had was this surface self that saw achievement and wealth as the means to being 'loved', when in fact what it really was was temporary approval, temporary acceptance for somthing I had done - but NOT for who I was. Who I was had ceased to exist and in its place were these masks, bits of other peoples identities I used in the hope they would be acceptable.You may feel accepted and loved in many ways, but if there are whole parts of yourself that you seal away for fear of being 'found out', or that would make people leave you, abuse you or attack you, then that is shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Well, now you got me thinking about this, and so I found this:http://www.columbiapsych.com/shame_miller.htmland thought it was quite interesting. Hope you already hadn't posted this link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Well, now you got me thinking about this, and so I found this:http://www.columbiapsych.com/shame_miller.htmland thought it was quite interesting. Hope you already hadn't posted this link.I did somewhere, but its a great article and worth showing again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jades Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 i once had unconditional love and acceptance with bill but that feels like a lifetime ago and left when he died as if it never existed i have shame to my core and the shame of who i am drives me to run grom m feelings and to drink and want to self destuct and kill myself i dont know that i can ever get over this and it scares me i dont know that i deserve to and i believe that i think secretly i wish to die just not were ill get blamed for doing it on purpose and its all tied to my shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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