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Wobbles

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Oh my gosh, Wobbles. I just read the part in your post about your father killing himself. My heart just sank so fast.

I am so very sorry. I cannot even imagine. I lost my own father, the "good parent" to a heart attack about 25 years ago, way too early.

Suicide leaves such scars for the living, whatever people's lives were like, or your relationship with them. I just wanted to tell you that your loss saddens me.

Thank you Jenga, i appreciate your kind words, and i'm sorry to hear about your dad. My father was also the 'good parent', even though he suffered very badly with depression and PTSD.

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My Grandma was diagnosed with a 'personality disorder' a long, long, long time ago and although we don't know which type it is highly likely to be NPD due to he behaviour. She is 92 now and has not changed at all, ever. My Dad left home with the shirt on his back and 6 shillings when he was 16 (1958). He had no contact until he had his first child (1972) and my Mum talked him into re-uniting the family, she hadn't been at his Wedding in 1966). He regrets this bitterly as she has brought much heartache to us all. Personally I could have done without a Grandma who told you (when you were a small child) she preferred boys to girls and supported my brothers a whole lot more than she ever did me. She has always played selfish, cruel games with our feelings and although my parents do so much for her the minute they turn their backs she is slagging them off to her 'friends' about how for the one minute they are not there she has been 'abandoned' and offered no support. I could go on all day with different scenarios and experiences. Anyways just wanted to share with you from a Granddaughters point of view.

I agree with Roxy that forgiveness is hyped up and over-rated. Perhaps the final stage of recovery is acceptance?? xxx

It's very interesting to hear the perspective of a grandchild of a narcissist. Considering i can't decide whether i should let my son have anything to do with my mother, i'd like to hear more if you ever have time Roses.

And i agree that acceptance is possibly the last stage of recovery.

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Hey Wobbles I'm glad that you found my experiences helpful and I was worried I had upset you in your other thread bleeting on about John Studd. Anyway, whatever you need I will try and provide. What would you like to know? You can ask me anything and I will not mind at all. xxxxx

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No you haven't upset me at all Roses, i think i may have over reacted in that other thread :(

I'll have a think about it and send you some questions tonight if thats ok?

Thank you. I really do worry about my mothers influence on my son.

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That's fine honey. Have a good afternoon and I'll speak to you later. It is so easy to get triggered by stuff on here I'm sure everyone on that thread understands that. Hugs xxx

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I have BPD. I am a mother myself. I loved my child and fought for him like a lion. But there was a time when he turned a teenager, started getting hot-shot attitude, brought his runa-away girlfriend home and "told" me, not asked me, that she was staying here. I worked an 8 hour day in a stressful job and was glad my home was my home and I felt extremely disprespected and overlooked by the both of them just walking into the house like I had nothing to say anymore.

I threw my son out! I was furious. I called my mom and asked her if she didnt have a room for him, I am fed up.

OK. I know I am opening myself up here to possible attacks from all sides for being a "bad" mother.

My son did not forgive me either. He lived right next door to me for seven years and did not speak one word with me, although I had regretted what I did a million times. He and his girlfriend slammed the door in my face when I went over to try to talk.

Does this make me one of the above talked about bad mothers? Maybe. He never forgave me. Never.

I want no pity whatsoever. But I want to show you what I look like when he did not forgive me, yet lived right next door. The suffering and pain fromtrying over and over again to reconcile with him. Maybe I deserve it. Maybe I am a bad mother. Get down on me if you want. But BPD or NPD both are illnesses. This picture is a consequence of being a "bad" mother!

And the result of regretting and having to pay the consequences of what I did.

Great. Laugh at me. Tell me I deserve it.........

I probably did, didnt I?

Ich-Foto-1.jpg

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Wobbles, my psych told me my parents had NPD but I never really understood what it was. I can clearly see from your posts though why he gave them such a dx, and I can also see why he thinks I don't have a biological mental illness but that my disorders arise entirely from my relationship with my parents.

I think for you the best thing to do is to give up on the idea that you need a loving mother. You need to give up on her too, that she will ever change or accept responsibility for what she did to you. She is disturbed and wanting anything from her will probably lead to disappointment. I have found that as long as you can find someone in your life to love you and accept you unconditionally, even a therapist (though I guess there is a condition that you will pay her), this can eventually take the place of the need you have for a loving parent. I still suffer greatly because I have difficulty giving up on the paradigm that I can get my parents to love me. I don't have contact with them either, but I am still trying to do things to please the image I have of them. It is complicated I guess.

I really identified to what you said about your mom not letting you talk about her to others and the show she put on that she was a good parent. My parents treated other people well and then abused me which totally made me think they were good and that I was simply bad. This is confusing and hurtful. I also am beginning to wonder, from your post, if my sister has NPD too. She emulated my mother and has been very cruel to me and unempathetic.

Thanks for your illuminating posts. I could completely identify with them.

arwen

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I have BPD. I am a mother myself. I loved my child and fought for him like a lion. But there was a time when he turned a teenager, started getting hot-shot attitude, brought his runa-away girlfriend home and "told" me, not asked me, that she was staying here. I worked an 8 hour day in a stressful job and was glad my home was my home and I felt extremely disprespected and overlooked by the both of them just walking into the house like I had nothing to say anymore.

I threw my son out! I was furious. I called my mom and asked her if she didnt have a room for him, I am fed up.

OK. I know I am opening myself up here to possible attacks from all sides for being a "bad" mother.

My son did not forgive me either. He lived right next door to me for seven years and did not speak one word with me, although I had regretted what I did a million times. He and his girlfriend slammed the door in my face when I went over to try to talk.

Does this make me one of the above talked about bad mothers? Maybe. He never forgave me. Never.

I want no pity whatsoever. But I want to show you what I look like when he did not forgive me, yet lived right next door. The suffering and pain fromtrying over and over again to reconcile with him. Maybe I deserve it. Maybe I am a bad mother. Get down on me if you want. But BPD or NPD both are illnesses. This picture is a consequence of being a "bad" mother!

And the result of regretting and having to pay the consequences of what I did.

Great. Laugh at me. Tell me I deserve it.........

I probably did, didnt I?

Ich-Foto-1.jpg

there are lots of parents that have all kinds of illnesses who are still good parents, who make an effort to see their child as an indiviual, meet their needs and do what they can to understand their struggle. an illness is no excuse for being an abuser. im not saying you are, or that your a bad mother, i ofcorse wouldnt know. but for those of us abused by people who claim its because they are ill know thats just a poor excuse. we dont go around sympathising with hitler or ted bundy just because they had anti social personality disoders.

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The thing is that as a child we view things differently than an adult. And a lot of the time we are talking about childhood experiences of coping with NPD or mental illness, and it is entirely different because as adults confronted with an NPD personality we would quite possibly react in an entirely different way. I don't think it is accurate for you to view yourself as a bad mother judged against others beliefs. You know the full circumstances and it is you and your family / friends opinions that matter.

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I am sick. I am humiliating myself.

I HATE myself.

Elke, i don't think you're a bad mother at all. You did what i probably would have been forced to do in that situation. And just because you did that, doesn't mean you are narcissistic and certainly not a bad mother. Especially considering you tried many times to talk to your son and rectify the situation.

That's the huge difference. You made a decision, regretted that decision, and try to do somethin about it, realising it maybe wasn't the best thing to do at the time.

My mother and from what i've read, most NPD parents, have no idea what damage they've caused, let alone take responsibility for it and try and do something positive about it.

And no you're not humiliating yourself at all hun, thank you for sharing with me. I'm so sorry you're going through what you're going through right now.

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Wobbles, my psych told me my parents had NPD but I never really understood what it was. I can clearly see from your posts though why he gave them such a dx, and I can also see why he thinks I don't have a biological mental illness but that my disorders arise entirely from my relationship with my parents.

I think for you the best thing to do is to give up on the idea that you need a loving mother. You need to give up on her too, that she will ever change or accept responsibility for what she did to you. She is disturbed and wanting anything from her will probably lead to disappointment. I have found that as long as you can find someone in your life to love you and accept you unconditionally, even a therapist (though I guess there is a condition that you will pay her), this can eventually take the place of the need you have for a loving parent. I still suffer greatly because I have difficulty giving up on the paradigm that I can get my parents to love me. I don't have contact with them either, but I am still trying to do things to please the image I have of them. It is complicated I guess.

I really identified to what you said about your mom not letting you talk about her to others and the show she put on that she was a good parent. My parents treated other people well and then abused me which totally made me think they were good and that I was simply bad. This is confusing and hurtful. I also am beginning to wonder, from your post, if my sister has NPD too. She emulated my mother and has been very cruel to me and unempathetic.

Thanks for your illuminating posts. I could completely identify with them.

arwen

Hi Arwen, thanks for your post, and i've slowly started to realise that i do indeed need to give up on my mother, give up the hope i have that one day she'll change, she'll love me unconditionally, accept me without question, and give me everything i've always wanted and needed.

I've also come to the conclusion that i don't have a biological or chemical illness. What i have is a reaction to bad parenting. PTSD from growing up with a mother who was never emotionally available, who abused m, neglected my needs, and rejected me. And then throw on top of that a father with a mental illness and his subsequent suicide, it's no wonder i'm rather messed up.

What you said about still trying to do things to please the image of your parents, is very true for me also. Even though i'm not in proper contact with mother, i'm still living as though i need and want her approval and acceptance. It seems so ridiculous.

I have a husband how loves me more than anything and accepts me unconditionally, and i need to focus on that instead of focussing on what i don't have in a mother. I also am going to concentrate on building friendships and learning how to give and accept love, support, unconditional positive regard etc so that i'm getting and giving enough in other relationships to not feel the need within myself, to fill the void that has been left by my mother.

Thanks again and i hope you too can find peace.

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there are lots of parents that have all kinds of illnesses who are still good parents, who make an effort to see their child as an indiviual, meet their needs and do what they can to understand their struggle. an illness is no excuse for being an abuser. im not saying you are, or that your a bad mother, i ofcorse wouldnt know. but for those of us abused by people who claim its because they are ill know thats just a poor excuse. we dont go around sympathising with hitler or ted bundy just because they had anti social personality disoders.

So what do you suggest I do after this lecture?

Those of us who have PD´s are not only victims but also culprits. We are not saints, otherwise we wouldnt be here. And a lot of us work on ourselves and dont only point their fingers on what horible mother we had. That is als partially "an exuse".And to accuse me of using an "excuse" for my behavior is like saying I am to be a pefec, without flaws, and without a disorder myself.

-Yes, BPD can slo be abusive. It is unsrealistic to be believe otherwise. Read the DSM-IV an you will find loads of things that 'BPD are flawed with.

And what Hitler concerns - He didnt know he was ill. And I am not Hitler. I am German and I wish people would seperate me from him. I was born AFTER he died and had nothing to do with the NS regime.

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i wasnt saying you were, and it wasnt a lecture. i specificlly said i wasnt saying your a bad mtoher, as i dont know you i cant say that. what i was saying is that there are alot of children out there who have parents who are ill who are still good to them. then there are some like us who dont. and there is no excuse for the parents who mistreat us intentionally and use illnesses as an excuse, the same way that theres people dont accept any excuse for the criminal behaviour of alot of sociapaths. i stand by that 100% but like i said im not saying thats you. im sorry if it came accross that way. i was intending only to speak from the point of view of the child of an abusive parent

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Thanks you roses. And what Chris concers, I am pretty sure he has some kind a childhood amnesia. What can I say, I have to live with it an it hurts. He doesnt remember much of what happened before this incident. He has no memory of the good - to him it was a one time incident which counted - the onyl one that seems to count. I dont know why he called himself a nerd recently. I showed him some things from chldhood - maybe he did see there was some "good" after that. Children often dont remember too much of childhood, at least he doesnt. I blew. We all blow at times. I shouldnt have thrown him out though, that was my big mistake. I had a boyfriend fro years who would come and go however I wanted to see him or not see him. Maybe it turned into a habit and I thougt I could do this with Chris and he would come back. But not him....so much for people being different.

I had a bf who said "I like the way you treat your son".

I am sorry for all those who were misused and abused by thei parents. And I can understand you anger at what I did. I must be a masochist ... I did not need to tell this story here.

And my parents were abusive also. How many times have they thrown me out of the house, I was beaten also with a belt, hit on the head. I though always blamed myself .. not them, probably because everyone else accused me for the abuse. But I am going on and on here .... I just had a need to talk tonight. I will shut up now.

Elke

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It's OK Elke. We all have our demons. Hopefully you can close the door on them and move on with your life. I find it helpful to have a spiritual path. To say, OK I'm not very patient I will try to learn something that will teach me patience. I did a whole cross-stitch - now that's patience! xxx

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i've slowly started to realise that i do indeed need to give up on my mother, give up the hope i have that one day she'll change, she'll love me unconditionally, accept me without question, and give me everything i've always wanted and needed.

I've also come to the conclusion that i don't have a biological or chemical illness. What i have is a reaction to bad parenting. PTSD from growing up with a mother who was never emotionally available, who abused m, neglected my needs, and rejected me. And then throw on top of that a father with a mental illness and his subsequent suicide, it's no wonder i'm rather messed up.

What you said about still trying to do things to please the image of your parents, is very true for me also. Even though i'm not in proper contact with mother, i'm still living as though i need and want her approval and acceptance. It seems so ridiculous.

I have a husband how loves me more than anything and accepts me unconditionally, and i need to focus on that instead of focussing on what i don't have in a mother. I also am going to concentrate on building friendships and learning how to give and accept love, support, unconditional positive regard etc so that i'm getting and giving enough in other relationships to not feel the need within myself, to fill the void that has been left by my mother.

Do you ever find it difficult to trust in your husband's love for you? I don't know how to explain it so I don't sound really stupid, but intellectually I know my fiance loves me. But, there is always that voice in my head saying that he doesn't really, or saying that if he really knew me he wouldn't, or that even my parents never loved me so obviously I am unlovable and he is just trying to be nice. It probably doesn't make sense, but if my parents and grandparents, and whole extended family never loved me, and they are supposed to... why would anyone who doesn't have to love me? I have been trying to fill my life with people who love me, but I don't know if I can even feel that someone loves me, which is making it not very successful so far for me. You sound more put together though, so your idea is great! I can't remember what else I was going to write... anyway... I could relate to everything that you said, I think it is hard to actually get over though. But I can't even imagine how wonderful and liberating it would feel!

xxx

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i've slowly started to realise that i do indeed need to give up on my mother, give up the hope i have that one day she'll change, she'll love me unconditionally, accept me without question, and give me everything i've always wanted and needed.

I've also come to the conclusion that i don't have a biological or chemical illness. What i have is a reaction to bad parenting. PTSD from growing up with a mother who was never emotionally available, who abused m, neglected my needs, and rejected me. And then throw on top of that a father with a mental illness and his subsequent suicide, it's no wonder i'm rather messed up.

What you said about still trying to do things to please the image of your parents, is very true for me also. Even though i'm not in proper contact with mother, i'm still living as though i need and want her approval and acceptance. It seems so ridiculous.

I have a husband how loves me more than anything and accepts me unconditionally, and i need to focus on that instead of focussing on what i don't have in a mother. I also am going to concentrate on building friendships and learning how to give and accept love, support, unconditional positive regard etc so that i'm getting and giving enough in other relationships to not feel the need within myself, to fill the void that has been left by my mother.

Do you ever find it difficult to trust in your husband's love for you? I don't know how to explain it so I don't sound really stupid, but intellectually I know my fiance loves me. But, there is always that voice in my head saying that he doesn't really, or saying that if he really knew me he wouldn't, or that even my parents never loved me so obviously I am unlovable and he is just trying to be nice. It probably doesn't make sense, but if my parents and grandparents, and whole extended family never loved me, and they are supposed to... why would anyone who doesn't have to love me? I have been trying to fill my life with people who love me, but I don't know if I can even feel that someone loves me, which is making it not very successful so far for me. You sound more put together though, so your idea is great! I can't remember what else I was going to write... anyway... I could relate to everything that you said, I think it is hard to actually get over though. But I can't even imagine how wonderful and liberating it would feel!

xxx

Hey AveMaria,

In short, Yes! lol.

Ever since i met my husband (He feel in love with me very quickly) i've been convinced that he doesn't know what he's doing. He's simple, he's blinded, and one day he'll wake up and realise what it is that he's married. I don't understand what he sees in me, i don't know why he loves me, and i don't, or have a lot of difficulty trusting him to know what he's doing, and trusting that he loves me.

My mother never loved me, my father loved me, but left me, i've never had any friends etc etc so what's wrong with this man, who could have anyone in the world, that he has chosen me, and says he loves me? ME of all people.

However, we've been together for nearly 3 years and i'm honestly at the point now where i trust him. He's not simple, he's not stupid, and me doubting and untrusting is doing to him what has been done to me my whole life. Invalidating him and his feelings.

He has the right to love me, without question, and to be trusted and not doubted. He is still with me, he is the father of my baby, and wants to spend the rest of our lives together. He chose to marry me, no one forced him.

And i think that's another key thing. Trying to get people to love you, who are suppose to love you unconditionally hasn't worked for either of us, you and me. Our partners don't HAVE to love us, they're not SUPPOSE to, it is a gift that we should graciously and gratefully accept, and realise that they're not just settling for us.

I don't believe in the saying 'You can't love anyone else until you learn to love yourself'. My husband loves me, but i hate myself. It's his love that opens my eyes to the possibility that maybe i'm not so bad, and he is teaching me with his love and acceptance, that i am loveable.

You can't see why your fiance loves you, but if you love him, don't push him away because you don't see what he sees in you. He's not stupid, or simple, or settling, he wants to marry you, and spend the rest of his life with you, trust that, trust HIM and take the risk to get hurt, because even if one day things fall apart, you'll have had a fantastic journey and some wonderful times with someone who can enrich your life, and teach you how to love yourself.

xxx

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Thanks! That was so inspiring! I can totally relate to what you said and I agree that to not trust in his love when he already has proven it, is not fair to him and could seem very invalidating. Obviously as I have experienced that plenty, I certainly don't want to make him go through that! You are so right, I am just having a hard time letting him in totally or letting myself try to be happy. I don't feel I deserve it and I keep waiting for him to realize how horrible and worthless I am and that he could do better. But as its been six years, two children, a couple breakdowns... and he just seems to love me more... odd yet if I look at it like how you wrote your post... how amazing! :lol: Thanks once again!

xxx

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Thanks! That was so inspiring! I can totally relate to what you said and I agree that to not trust in his love when he already has proven it, is not fair to him and could seem very invalidating. Obviously as I have experienced that plenty, I certainly don't want to make him go through that! You are so right, I am just having a hard time letting him in totally or letting myself try to be happy. I don't feel I deserve it and I keep waiting for him to realize how horrible and worthless I am and that he could do better. But as its been six years, two children, a couple breakdowns... and he just seems to love me more... odd yet if I look at it like how you wrote your post... how amazing! :lol: Thanks once again!

xxx

Something i've learned fairly recently is that we can change our thoughts and behaviour within a loving, supportive, accepting environment. Quite often this environment is within the therapeutic setting, however, we cannot exclude our partners, and interpersonal relationships.

Conditions of worth is the shite that our parents, care givers, neighbours, teachers, friends etc put on us as we're growing up. And if those conditions of worth are inappropriate, unreasonable etc, then we're left feeling the way we do about ourselves. Negatively, that we're not worth pissing on if we were on fire, unloveable, worthless etc.

And then suddenly someone comes along who is the opposite. For some reason they seem to love us unconditionally, regardless of how much we put them through, how much we try to push them away, they won't give up on us. They're correcting, over time, those unreasonable conditions of worth that were put on us as we grew up. And i firmly believe that it is not our place to question the positive, healthy, supportive, loving, non judgemental acceptance that they're offering us.

Everyday we're presented with an opportunity to learn, love, and experience such a richness that being in a loving relationship can offer. I recently fell back in love with my husband, after realising all of this. I had been pushing him away for so long, and then one day it just came to me. All of my whinging and bitching that i was lonely, had no one to talk to, no friends, no one to be close with, and then it hit me in the guts. My husband. He loves me unconditionally, in the true sense of the word. I have an opportunity that i've been taking for granted, ignoring, invalidating, and it was making me miserable. I was picking at his faults constantly, instead of appreciating all the good tings he does for me. Instead of being grateful that he is the one person here everynight, happy for me to talk to him, cry on his shoulder ask for a hug and trust him to know what he's doing.

I again now see him as my best friend, and even though he pisses me off sometimes, i need to allow him to be human, have his faults, and love him anyway, because that's what he's doing for me.

Of course it's a different story if you don't actually love your partner, but i'm talking about us that do love our partners, and have doubts because we find it hard to trust them and their feelings.

What you're feeling hun is normal in any type of relationship, but it has been 6 years and two kids, and he still wants to marry you after everything, and is happy to have a civil ceremony, and make compromises so that he gets the privilage of being with you forever. All of those people who were suppose to love us but didn't, were wrong, and they're the ones we should be doubting.

YOU ARE LOVEABLE JUST THE WAY YOU ARE!! And you don't have to believe that right away, but trust that your fiance knows and believes that, and one day he'll help you see that yourself. And so will your kidlets.

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Hi Wobbles

My mother was a malignant NPD - diagnosed only by me! (Hope you understand that I need time to read and take in the posts here.)

I understand the insidiousness of it - they were the perfect mothers...) BOLLOCKS!

zora xx

BTW - I have a loving, lovely marriage - but this shit won't go away unless we meet it head on. POWER TO YOU AND ME!!

FUCK THEM!

zora

xxxx

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Hi Wobbles

My mother was a malignant NPD - diagnosed only by me! (Hope you understand that I need time to read and take in the posts here.)

I understand the insidiousness of it - they were the perfect mothers...) BOLLOCKS!

zora xx

BTW - I have a loving, lovely marriage - but this shit won't go away unless we meet it head on. POWER TO YOU AND ME!!

FUCK THEM!

zora

xxxx

Well said zora, we must challenge those destructive, unhealthy, malignant thoughts that our wonderfully awful mothers instilled in us. Thoughts that make us act and feel the way we do.

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:bigarmhug[1]: wobbles

Thanks - am pretty well on in healing babe but appreciate you replying to a gal who's totally pre-menstrual at the mo.

(BTW - Hitler's most commonly reputed to have been malignant NPD.)

OK to rationalise babe - but if, like me, you have so much pain and rage locked up - OK we can rationalise it all but hey -- don't you want to have a target range where you can aim and fire on those those who lied to you ..? I do.

zora

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:bigarmhug[1]: wobbles

Thanks - am pretty well on in healing babe but appreciate you replying to a gal who's totally pre-menstrual at the mo.

(BTW - Hitler's most commonly reputed to have been malignant NPD.)

OK to rationalise babe - but if, like me, you have so much pain and rage locked up - OK we can rationalise it all but hey -- don't you want to have a target range where you can aim and fire on those those who lied to you ..? I do.

zora

Oh absolutely, i often fantasise about doing that. In fact earlier tonight i was having wonderfully detailed fantasies about setting the little shit on fire that walked into me house this time last week, stole my property, assaulted me and then promptly left. I won't go into details about what i did to him in my head, but it was very satisfying.

But then there's the conversations and fights i've had with my mother and others, all in my head, that i gain satisfaction from.

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Hey there

AveMaria and Wobbles, I just have to add a quick note, if I can.

I SO understand and can relate to what you are saying about your husband/fiance., and I guess in that respect I am a "success story" :)

I have known my husband 25 years, married 23 years, have two kids, 19, and 20. From day 1 i have insisted that my husband does not love me.. how could he? I also don't like/love myself much, if ever.

Even as recently as 1 week ago I was screaming at my husband that he doesn't really love me!!! After 25 years of being with me, why the heck would he still be here if he didn't love me?? I think it's just so weird how that happens. :)

For much of our time together, I really did believe that he didn't love me. I was having so many ups and downs, in and out of hating him, wanting him to leave, wanting to leave etc... Mostly, though, none of that was about him and I.

Then one day I thought to myself, OMG, what if he DOESN'T love me? What if he DOES leave? I panicked, and then realized how much he really does love me, and that I depend on that. I've been trying to start accepting it a little better instead of throwing it back at him. I feel so unloveable and undeserving. And yet he always says over and over that he loves me. He puts up with everything. None else has stood by me like this. Not even close. I have no doubts whatsoever that we won't be together till the end.

I still think I am a bitch, and hard to live with, and not very nice a lot of the time, but I also now have to admit there must be something GOOD about me as well. My husband is quite boring and steady, so I think he must at least find me interesting sometimes :). When I feel bad for him, I remind myself that he's not a picnic all of the time either!

Sorry about this post, it feels quite disconnected and I am sorry. Just wanted to say that I think it's normal to feel that way when you are so sensitive and full of self doubt, and are not use to this unconditional love thing. But just let the love come to you and accept it as real. I have been pushing and pushing him away for decades now. But it's no use- he wont go away! Thank god for that! Someday I might have to just give in completely and say alright already.. I'm loveable!

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