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Wobbles

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Hey there

AveMaria and Wobbles, I just have to add a quick note, if I can.

I SO understand and can relate to what you are saying about your husband/fiance., and I guess in that respect I am a "success story" :)

I have known my husband 25 years, married 23 years, have two kids, 19, and 20. From day 1 i have insisted that my husband does not love me.. how could he? I also don't like/love myself much, if ever.

Even as recently as 1 week ago I was screaming at my husband that he doesn't really love me!!! After 25 years of being with me, why the heck would he still be here if he didn't love me?? I think it's just so weird how that happens. :)

For much of our time together, I really did believe that he didn't love me. I was having so many ups and downs, in and out of hating him, wanting him to leave, wanting to leave etc... Mostly, though, none of that was about him and I.

Then one day I thought to myself, OMG, what if he DOESN'T love me? What if he DOES leave? I panicked, and then realized how much he really does love me, and that I depend on that. I've been trying to start accepting it a little better instead of throwing it back at him. I feel so unloveable and undeserving. And yet he always says over and over that he loves me. He puts up with everything. None else has stood by me like this. Not even close. I have no doubts whatsoever that we won't be together till the end.

I still think I am a bitch, and hard to live with, and not very nice a lot of the time, but I also now have to admit there must be something GOOD about me as well. My husband is quite boring and steady, so I think he must at least find me interesting sometimes :). When I feel bad for him, I remind myself that he's not a picnic all of the time either!

Sorry about this post, it feels quite disconnected and I am sorry. Just wanted to say that I think it's normal to feel that way when you are so sensitive and full of self doubt, and are not use to this unconditional love thing. But just let the love come to you and accept it as real. I have been pushing and pushing him away for decades now. But it's no use- he wont go away! Thank god for that! Someday I might have to just give in completely and say alright already.. I'm loveable!

Yay Jenga, thank you for sharing that. It's so great that you've started to realise these things, and also that you and hubby are still together after so long. It gives me hope, and you're right, there is something, more than likely, a lot of things, that is GOOD and LOVEABLE about you, it's just a case of seeing it yourself, and if not, just accepting that others can see it. Give in to it, and really enjoy the love that your hubby is offering you everyday. We need to stop fighting it.

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I echo Wobbles; Thanks jenga for sharing! Hearing what you two write, it sounds so easy... yet from experience I know it isn't. It gives me hope though, so for that I am thankful. I always tend to want to push my fiance away... either because I am too scared that he will realize he really doesn't love me and will leave, or that he does love me and I will somehow mess up his life too. I always want to push him away, yet I don't know what I would do if he ever actually did leave, Lol. I can be a bitch too jenga, but I think he enjoys that in the end, if anyone ever says anything mean about him or our daughters or just is mean... all my bitchiness gets turned on them timed by like a million! Ha ha... sometimes it can come in handy.

Btw, just reread what you wrote before Wobbles,

All of those people who were suppose to love us but didn't, were wrong, and they're the ones we should be doubting.
Intellectually I get that... but if there is like almost everyone I know on one side... and one person (four if you count my daughters who are too little to know better and my grandpa who is dead,lol) on the other side... how am I supposed to honestly believe that my fiance is the right one? If I actually am someone worth loving... why would almost no one see it? I don't understand that, how could my entire family be wrong? That doesn't even make sense. I can't imagine not loving my daughters so obviously they could all see something just inherently wrong with me, something horrible that made me unlovable and something to hate. I don't know... I just don't understand any of it I guess. I don't think I even understand the concept of receiving love.

xxx

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Hey there

AveMaria and Wobbles, I just have to add a quick note, if I can.

I SO understand and can relate to what you are saying about your husband/fiance., and I guess in that respect I am a "success story" :)

I have known my husband 25 years, married 23 years, have two kids, 19, and 20. From day 1 i have insisted that my husband does not love me.. how could he? I also don't like/love myself much, if ever.

Even as recently as 1 week ago I was screaming at my husband that he doesn't really love me!!! After 25 years of being with me, why the heck would he still be here if he didn't love me?? I think it's just so weird how that happens. :)

For much of our time together, I really did believe that he didn't love me. I was having so many ups and downs, in and out of hating him, wanting him to leave, wanting to leave etc... Mostly, though, none of that was about him and I.

Then one day I thought to myself, OMG, what if he DOESN'T love me? What if he DOES leave? I panicked, and then realized how much he really does love me, and that I depend on that. I've been trying to start accepting it a little better instead of throwing it back at him. I feel so unloveable and undeserving. And yet he always says over and over that he loves me. He puts up with everything. None else has stood by me like this. Not even close. I have no doubts whatsoever that we won't be together till the end.

I still think I am a bitch, and hard to live with, and not very nice a lot of the time, but I also now have to admit there must be something GOOD about me as well. My husband is quite boring and steady, so I think he must at least find me interesting sometimes :). When I feel bad for him, I remind myself that he's not a picnic all of the time either!

Sorry about this post, it feels quite disconnected and I am sorry. Just wanted to say that I think it's normal to feel that way when you are so sensitive and full of self doubt, and are not use to this unconditional love thing. But just let the love come to you and accept it as real. I have been pushing and pushing him away for decades now. But it's no use- he wont go away! Thank god for that! Someday I might have to just give in completely and say alright already.. I'm loveable!

i second this. iv been with my guy 7yrs and I know he loves me. prob i have at times is that I cant accept this love and push him away, but this is my mothers message of my worthlessness still tangled up inside and he is paitient until I can let him love me. its a work in progress, but i do totally believe that he loves me and i love him. its pretty amazing! cant imagine how i survived as a child without thisx

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I echo Wobbles; Thanks jenga for sharing! Hearing what you two write, it sounds so easy... yet from experience I know it isn't. It gives me hope though, so for that I am thankful. I always tend to want to push my fiance away... either because I am too scared that he will realize he really doesn't love me and will leave, or that he does love me and I will somehow mess up his life too. I always want to push him away, yet I don't know what I would do if he ever actually did leave, Lol. I can be a bitch too jenga, but I think he enjoys that in the end, if anyone ever says anything mean about him or our daughters or just is mean... all my bitchiness gets turned on them timed by like a million! Ha ha... sometimes it can come in handy.

Btw, just reread what you wrote before Wobbles,

All of those people who were suppose to love us but didn't, were wrong, and they're the ones we should be doubting.
Intellectually I get that... but if there is like almost everyone I know on one side... and one person (four if you count my daughters who are too little to know better and my grandpa who is dead,lol) on the other side... how am I supposed to honestly believe that my fiance is the right one? If I actually am someone worth loving... why would almost no one see it? I don't understand that, how could my entire family be wrong? That doesn't even make sense. I can't imagine not loving my daughters so obviously they could all see something just inherently wrong with me, something horrible that made me unlovable and something to hate. I don't know... I just don't understand any of it I guess. I don't think I even understand the concept of receiving love.

xxx

but im guessing your fiance is the one closest too you, the one who knows you best? surely that makes his opinion count for more. also, im guessing hes someone you value, in comparrison to family who have let you down, failed you, doesnt this give his opinion more weight? i do understand its not thsi simple. when i feel unlovable i try to see this as my mothers message, not mine, and tell myself its ok to accept love

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I echo Wobbles; Thanks jenga for sharing! Hearing what you two write, it sounds so easy... yet from experience I know it isn't. It gives me hope though, so for that I am thankful. I always tend to want to push my fiance away... either because I am too scared that he will realize he really doesn't love me and will leave, or that he does love me and I will somehow mess up his life too. I always want to push him away, yet I don't know what I would do if he ever actually did leave, Lol. I can be a bitch too jenga, but I think he enjoys that in the end, if anyone ever says anything mean about him or our daughters or just is mean... all my bitchiness gets turned on them timed by like a million! Ha ha... sometimes it can come in handy.

Btw, just reread what you wrote before Wobbles,

All of those people who were suppose to love us but didn't, were wrong, and they're the ones we should be doubting.
Intellectually I get that... but if there is like almost everyone I know on one side... and one person (four if you count my daughters who are too little to know better and my grandpa who is dead,lol) on the other side... how am I supposed to honestly believe that my fiance is the right one? If I actually am someone worth loving... why would almost no one see it? I don't understand that, how could my entire family be wrong? That doesn't even make sense. I can't imagine not loving my daughters so obviously they could all see something just inherently wrong with me, something horrible that made me unlovable and something to hate. I don't know... I just don't understand any of it I guess. I don't think I even understand the concept of receiving love.

xxx

Let me ask you something Ave, do you think or believe it's possible that there is one person in this world, who is so terrible, so awful, that they don't deserve to be loved?

(I'm excluding rapists, paedophiles etc, i'm talking about your average person)

That there is someone who has absolutely no good qualities that one other person amongst billions wouldn't see and like?

That it was possible you were unlucky enough to be born into a family who were completely incapable of loving another human being unconditionally, that your mother learned if from her mother and so on, generations of conditioning and abuse, and the end result is you, someone who had a family that was incapable of loving and accepting you.

So because they're like that, does that mean you're unlovable? There's no hope for you, you're damaged beyond repair, and that it can't possibly be your family's fault, it must be yours?

You were born innocent and loveable. Your family fucked up a chance of a lifetime, and your husband, for one, sees what your family has been unable and unwilling to see.

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Avemaria

Roxy and Wobbles are exactly right!! Your family obviously isn't capable of really knowing who you really are- the real you. Your fiance and other people can see who you are, and how loveable you are.

I am so mad at them for making you feel this way! Don't believe it! THEY are the ones with issues. You say that you don't understand how they can ALL be wrong/ Well, they are! I think when you are a sensitive and caring person, in tune with how others feel etc.., it is just hard to imagine why other people don't feel the same. That's because of their shortcomings, not yours, really!!! If you had to choose, be like them , or be like you, you would want to be you. And that's for a good reason.. they are not able to do the most important things in life- the caring and the unconditional love etc.. There must be reasons for that, but it has NOTHING to do with you. We all need to let go of needing and wanting the unhealthy relationships.

I know it is hard. I go in and out of hating my mother, not wanting anything to do with her etc.., and yet there are still those times when I feel I need a mom so badly. But not her- nope, she is not a mom I want. So I need to find what I need- elsewhere! I'm working on that, I think.. slowly.

I know the following statement is said all of the time, but it is SO true. We can't choose our families, but we CAN choose our friends, and who we want to spend time with from now on.

Last xmas I was once again let down by some family members, and felt sad about all of it. Then in the middle of the day, I said "FORGET THEM!" What matters is who is here with me now.. my own kids, my husband, a couple of friends who stopped by. I know the past influences and helps shape us, but it does NOT have to define who we are.

Fortunately ,we are separate beings, even if the DNA is there. So, try to remember it is not you.. you are the victim of messed up people, who unfortunately had their "hands on you" for too long.

Try to tune out those voices of the past- they are not here to help you. Instead look around. You are a loveable and worthwhile person- a strong woman who can do this, and people who know you understand. And you will be able to believe it too- I think you already do in some ways, because you have let people in.

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WARNING - MAY TRIGGER WARNING - MAY TRIGGER WARNING - MAY TRIGGER

Wobbles

I did read your whole post.

I don't know what I can do or say in the way of help, but here's what I have to say, in response to your post.

I estranged myself from my mother, I don't know if my mother is a narcisist, (?sp) but I know, from her behaviour, there is some deep, deep issue, she is unwilling to address. Ditto with dad, and my four siblings, which is why I cut them all off - SNIP!

Rightly or wrongly, I believe some sociopaths/narcisists do have empathy.

They inflict pain, knowing how it will feel.

It's not that Narcisits or sociopaths have no empathy, I think it is that either:

a)They know exactly how much they are hurting the other, and are intentionally causing pain for pain's sake

OR

b)They know how hurt the other person feels, by them inflicitng pain on them, but they simply don't care.

I am not saying this is fact with yours or my mum, just a theory of mine, which may not be correct.

Some people are so consumed by pain that they have had inflicted on them, and then, have gone onto repress the pain, so they wind up toxic, and oblivious or uncaring of others.

It's like the damage they have had done to them, has left them with less capacity to care about others.

This is also where the self centred/self absorbed/self obsession fits in.

Any self absorbed person is that way, because unprocessed damage, done to them, is being acted out, in toxic behaviour.

They are grieving, and they do not know it.

The sense of entitlement, and indignancy could also evolve out of unprocessed pain.

Yours and my mum sound very fragile emotionally, again, another outcome of unprocessed pain, from an original old emotional wound. (more often than not, starting in early childhood)

Superficiality, and appearance over-consciousness come from a very insecure person.

Insecurity arises when someone feels they are not safe in the world.

Defensiveness is a barrier to protect a fragile personality, but the barrier can sometimes be evil and toxic, like what you seem to be experiencing with your mum.

It's like there is no point in having a reasonable conversation with them, because they are so fortressed up with defensive barriers, we feel like we are inevitably going to come away more hurt.

I grieve for a mum who I have lost, yet she is still very much alive.

I moved to the south of the UK, from the north (bearing in mind, I was too wussy even to get a bus to town alone) - and when I ran out of excuses as to why I hadnt gone back to visit, and could no longer avoid their telephone calls, I had to write to tell them, not only was I cutting them off, but for them not to make any attempts at pursuing me.

I want a family who can be my true friends, not a bunch of abusive bullies, who stay together for appearances sake.

"The family" is a big thing with my parents, well, now, "The family" has a big f**king gaping hole in it, and STILL their defensive barriers are preventing them from writing to me and saying "Dear SW, I was mean to you, I now realise, I fear I will never see you again"....and so on"

I even wrote again, and said, that if any of us dies, before this rift is resolved PROPERLY, then I know I would have done my best with them. Still, their defenses wont come down.

Thats how powerful defensive barriers, protecting a wounded personality can be.

When I tried to stand up for myself, just in the normal respectful way, you do fend off bullies, my mum brainwashed me into thinking I was being moany.

I have real trouble identifying when I am being bullied by another person, and seem to obey automatically. Its like they programmed me.

Being critical, finding fault, slagging others off, and the like, are non physical ways of lashing out, and discharging anger.

Its like these people have a bad psychic 'smell' about them.

Even though emotionally wounded people are so absorbed in themselves (constant maintenance of the defensive barriers, constant vigilance on how they appear to others, etc) they are masters of wriggling out of situations which will expose them for what they are. This is why they lie, and contradict themselves, and it can be why we feel it is futile to argue with them.

Recognizing the futility of arguing with them, is not to be confused with accepting sh1t from them.

I think the best tactic to deal with these people is not to deal with them at all. I vote with my feet, and walk away. That way, you do not get damaged by them, as you are not there.

People like this hate criticism, because of their open festering, but hidden wounds. Any criticism to them, even the good sort, constructive criticism, will feel like a punch in the mouth to someone with a tooth abscess OWWWW. Exaggerated hypersensitivity to pain, as their original wound is still there festering.

Playing victim at just the right time, is part of their evasive expertise, and also a coping strategy to fend off further potential stimulus from others, which they perceive as attacks.

Being alone is something which is hard, and often people would rather pair up with an abusive toxic partner, than none at all.

My mum never left my Dad, even though he played at being Satan.

Some also hold the view of being single, as appearing unlovable. Our culture does not help with this, but it has improved from the days when it was BAD to be a 'spinster' maybe that is why many older people are toxic.

Also, people like your mum, and mine, do not want to be alone with their thoughts, as it is too painful.

There is no pain like invalidation, and nothing but their feelings are valid, to people like this, again, part of the defensive barrier, but painful to behold.

Real love, is an alien concept to people like this. They are 'nice to' others when it suits them. All interpersonal activity is centered around their wounded self.

Being in a position like this makes one envious and jealous of others. They are disgruntled with themselves, so they try to belittle others who they perceive as 'better than' them, in any way.

People like this manipulate their environment around their bottomless pit of energy sucking wounded emotions.

I am ashamed to admit that even if I can think of an assertive response to bullies like this, due to past vicous attacks of various bullies, I keep my mouth shut, or go to the other extreme, and lash out, usually on myself and look a right fool.

Paranoid ideation can come from deep insecurity, and lack of trust in a person's environment.

Sometimes paranoid can be aggressive as well, if they believe they are being attacked, they may lash out.

I had a psychotic episode, and during a delusion, I lashed out at an innocent, but luckily realised straightaway, and apologised on the spot.

My mum set me and other family members against each other.

The denial is another defense mechanism, as they cannot face the reality of the pain they are causing, because they cannot deal with the pain they have in themselves, the cause of the acting out.

Our society places great emphasis on the family, but the concept of the close family, is also a great cover for wounded fragile souls, who cope by abusing and hurting others.

What goes on in the family home, is often, as you know, very different to how it appears on the suface.

I would ask yourself if you are better off not returning to australia. I am not trying to tell you what to do, but I would be very wary of going to an environment with bullies in, because I feel I have to.

Live somewhere you like where you can get chance to heal.

Your already on the way by writing this post.

Cutting my family off was the only way I could set boundaries.

They are that superficial, they still sent presents at Christmas. A voucher thoughtlessly bunged in a Christmas/Birthday card.

I put a stop to that, as they are only doing it to look the part.

I dont want these meaningless 'gifts' from bullies, I want a hearfelt well thought out letter - acknowledging what they did, and genuine apology. Until that time................. .

I dont think our needs and feelings are insignificant, it's just that we either lost sight of our own needs and feelings, or, worse, we lost sight of the fact that we had needs and feelings at all.

Your sister has the 'off-a-ducks-back' way of coping, as a way of denial. My sisters are the same.

They idealize my parents, but only because they do not want to upset the status quo.

I dont have any links, as I have a short attention span-butterfly mind, but I would google "toxic families" and "dysfunctional family dynamics" and like me, you will see a theme running though all you read, and this will validate your current feelings.

Your way of coping, i.e. coming on here to share, is way more healthier than your sisters.

This is because you are attempting to address the issue honestly. They are lying or running away from it.

If you think of it in metaphorical terms, your sister is putting a band aid on a boil, whereas you are approaching the doctor, to get it lanced, and to have antibiotic medication, to clean out the dis-ease, once and for all.

We are fucked up, not because of them, as that signifies blame.

We are fucked up, on account of the effects that their actions have had on us.

I'm gonna wager, and hope you don't mind my presumption, that your mum, either had a bad childhood, or is hiding the fact that she had a bad childhood, behind a facade of lovey dovey happy family life.

As for your questions?

My Dad and mum are toxic abusive bullies, unsure what personality disorder to give them, but there are definitely deep issues around control, and love, and interpersonal interactions.

None of them have a friend between them.

He ruled the house.

My brothers and sisters are wimps, and they bullied me.

I am the youngest, but all five of us siblings are more or less the same age.

I cope with them, by voting with my feet, and not bothering with them at all. My nieces and nephews may resent me, but I will find a way of letting them know I have not forgotten them. Same with my siblings spouses. I only have beef with the first six people i met in my life, my first degree relatives.

Learning boundaries is part of my future experience, so at present, the boundaries I set is distance, because right now, I don't know, as I still have yet to learn, so sorry about that.

If you have a general google online, you will feel much more validated, as you read the classic textbook cases of the consequences of early childhood abuse on the personality.

(I am pretty certain, that my parents have had this, and dare I say yours?)

As for the ongoing treatment and CPTSD, all I can say, is, again, make it not ongoing, and walk away.

Whether your mum, or my family will 'come around' and see the damage she's done and change is depenendant on them, and something which we cannot control or change.

A bit like the grieving process, acceptance and intergration. I am going through this myself, so cannot fully answer your question, as my resolution to this, lies in the future, therefore, I dont feel I have access to the information at present.

It's not that our mums rejected us, more like, they are angry that they feel they are inadequate to cater for our needs, but are too proud (fragile egod) to admit this, so this sadness comes out as anger. Possibly even beyond their own conscious awareness.

As gor finding the love and acceptance that a child needs from their mother, as an adult? I think this is a great question, and I am wondering the answer myself.

Reading up on family dynamics again, and googling some of the key words in your original post, will yield results, and validate your feelings.

Like me, take pride in the knowledge, that not only are we the only ones in the family with a healthy approach to addressing the toxicity, we also have the sense to reach out for help, by coming on here, for instance.

A wise malaysian man once told me, whatever answers we want out of life, they always lie within the question.

This, while not providing cut and dry answers, shows us, we wil never have all the answers, but what matters is that we ask ourselves the right questions.

For instance, our mums may ask "Why is everyone such a w**ker?"- a wrong question, where you and me ask "Where is the love" the right question.

I think the reading will dissolve some of your grief, hurt, sadness, a broken heart, anger, frustration, self hatred, emptyness and confusion.

I thank you for your post, because some of the questions you asked are very pertinent to me, and have therefore helped me.

It's not an overnight process, but so long as we are on the right track, which we are, and our families are not, we will be ok.

I am sorry if I have repeated myself in this post.

If you want any names of people who have inspired me, "Deepak Chopra" "DW Winnicott"

I like reading and dont mind psychology, and emotional education, so I hope you get out of it what I did.

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ps. Scuse my ignorance, but what's BPD, is some form of psychiatric diagnosis.

As veteren as I am with receiving UK psychiatric services, etc, my only diagnoses have been 'Clinicall Depression' or 'Chronic Anxiety' and retrospectively recognized childhood paranoia.

Thanks apreciated. sorry to derail.

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i love how you say voting with your feet. it is so true, we are adults now, not child victims and we now have a choice in how we let others treat us. as you like reading pls pick up alice miller, utter god send in every way

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SW, wow what a well thought out, considerate, and detailed post. Thank you so much and you've opened up some more possibilities.

There is in fact the possibility that my mother had a traumatic and difficult childhood. She has never spoken of anything particularly bad happening, but that's not to say that it didn't happen.

The problem with thinking this, is that it makes me feel sorry for her. That's dangerous for me, because if i start to pitty her, i may go back for more abuse, more hurt, get sucked into it all, all over again. Right now, it's easier to be angry with her for not making the conscious decision to break the destructive cycle of abuse, and instead continue being the victim. It's the safer option.

But i wonder if one could manage to use/have compassion for someone, empathy for them, understanding, and still keep yourself at a safe distance so as to not be in the firing range of the poison that emanates from them?

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ps. Scuse my ignorance, but what's BPD, is some form of psychiatric diagnosis.

As veteren as I am with receiving UK psychiatric services, etc, my only diagnoses have been 'Clinicall Depression' or 'Chronic Anxiety' and retrospectively recognized childhood paranoia.

Thanks apreciated. sorry to derail.

Sorry SW, i don't understand what you mean here?

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Thank you roxy, wobbles, and jenga! You three are all so nice and it is horrible to think about that ya' all probably went through things similar to me for you to be able to relate so well.

m guessing hes someone you value, in comparrison to family who have let you down, failed you, doesnt this give his opinion more weight?
Yes definitely, obviously I would value his thoughts more, but it is hard as he is really nice. He could just be missing something.

Let me ask you something Ave, do you think or believe it's possible that there is one person in this world, who is so terrible, so awful, that they don't deserve to be loved?
Honestly no I don't think so. I feel that everyone has good and bad parts and that no matter what they deserve to have a parent love them, a friend love them, and a lover love them. Everyone has the right to experience all the different types of love.

You were born innocent and lovable. Your family fucked up a chance of a lifetime, and your fiance, for one, sees what your family has been unable and unwilling to see.
That gives me hope, but my family doesn't seem to be incapable of giving love... it seems to only be me. My grandparents love my one cousin. And there was just an article in the paper about my grandma learning how to be a volunteer with people who are dying... and what a wonderful, caring person she is! It made me so mad, honestly, I never got a scrap of even kindness or understanding let alone love... yet she is now doing something really nice for strangers and has a whole town in awe of her niceness. Makes me feel even more like sh*t.

Last xmas I was once again let down by some family members, and felt sad about all of it. Then in the middle of the day, I said "FORGET THEM!" What matters is who is here with me now.. my own kids, my husband, a couple of friends who stopped by. I know the past influences and helps shape us, but it does NOT have to define who we are.
Sounds like my family, lol. They always set me up for failure. They always "invite" me to holidays, then change the place and time... so when I show up with my fiance and daughters, no one is there. Then I get slammed for being so selfish I couldn't even come to the holidays, I don't even let them see their grand daughters/ great grand daughters/ grand nieces... and I get lectures on how worthless I am and what an embarrassment. It is the most vexing thing ever, and there is no way to win...

Try to tune out those voices of the past- they are not here to help you. Instead look around. You are a loveable and worthwhile person- a strong woman who can do this, and people who know you understand. And you will be able to believe it too- I think you already do in some ways, because you have let people in.
:grouphug[1]: That is so sweet! As is what you all wrote. Thank you, it is so nice to have somewhere where I know you all won't judge me and automatically say my parents were right... just because they were my parents. It is a wonderful feeling. I don't know how to totally heal, it feels like my family is constantly sabotaging my efforts or setting me up for failure in everything. I had always planned to leave once I turned 18 and live far away and never have any contact with any of them again, which I think would have worked for me. But, getting pregnant at 17 and falling in love with my fiance who's amazing family lives down the road from mine... it didn't work out that way. Now I am just stuck trying to feel ok, then feeling attacked and horrible... and then trying to make myself recover again. What a crappy cycle.

Thanks all! xxx

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Let me ask you something Ave, do you think or believe it's possible that there is one person in this world, who is so terrible, so awful, that they don't deserve to be loved?
Honestly no I don't think so. I feel that everyone has good and bad parts and that no matter what they deserve to have a parent love them, a friend love them, and a lover love them. Everyone has the right to experience all the different types of love.

So why are you the exception?

You were born innocent and lovable. Your family fucked up a chance of a lifetime, and your fiance, for one, sees what your family has been unable and unwilling to see.
That gives me hope, but my family doesn't seem to be incapable of giving love... it seems to only be me. My grandparents love my one cousin. And there was just an article in the paper about my grandma learning how to be a volunteer with people who are dying... and what a wonderful, caring person she is! It made me so mad, honestly, I never got a scrap of even kindness or understanding let alone love... yet she is now doing something really nice for strangers and has a whole town in awe of her niceness. Makes me feel even more like sh*t.

Your Grandma doesn't sound to me like she IS capabale of loving. It seems she does these seemingly nice, caring, wonderfully community spirited things because it makes HER FEEL GOOD, and gives her the recognition and appearance of being wonderful, it bolsters her ego, and she uses it in a purely hedonistic way. As for your cousin, your cousin might be the sort of person that tells your gran what she wants to hear, feeding into her self delusions, boosting her ego, and being the 'good one', which in turn makes your cousin feel good. Everyone does things for reasons, and most of the time, those reasons are selfish ones.

Please don't mistake your Grandmothers charade as being loving, unconditionally accepting of people, she's doing it because it makes her feel good, not because of how it makes those she's helping feel.

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Awww thanks for still being so nice when now I am just whining! I don't know why I would be the exception, I guess it just seems like your family are the ones to decide... and they decided it for me. I think I have a lot of good qualities, I am caring, loyal, loving, kind, I try to help people whenever I can, I am intelligent... but I always feel they will never be enough to overcome whatever my family found so offensive before I could even walk or talk. You might be right about my grandma, I never thought of it that way. I guess I just immediately blame it on myself, but your idea makes more sense. Thank you! Hope you are doing good... I am feeling better although some bad memories keep surfacing as I think about it all.

xxx

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Awww thanks for still being so nice when now I am just whining! I don't know why I would be the exception, I guess it just seems like your family are the ones to decide... and they decided it for me. I think I have a lot of good qualities, I am caring, loyal, loving, kind, I try to help people whenever I can, I am intelligent... but I always feel they will never be enough to overcome whatever my family found so offensive before I could even walk or talk. You might be right about my grandma, I never thought of it that way. I guess I just immediately blame it on myself, but your idea makes more sense. Thank you! Hope you are doing good... I am feeling better although some bad memories keep surfacing as I think about it all.

xxx

I'm sorry about the bad memories. And you're not whining, we're talking :)

See you yourself can see those good qualities, your hubby and kids see them too, and thats what makes them love you so much. Those are what make you loveable. It is the nature of the beast to blame ourselves, and internalise everything because that's what we've been taught to do.

But you must practice saying to yourself and those nasty voices in your head 'Nope, you're wrong. You're not helpful, and i don't need you, so be quiet now'.

Do that everytime a negative or self abusive thought starts and i promise it will help.

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Just thought of something, that might be helpful for you (finally, lol). Before you and Roses were talking about how having a grandparent with NPD would affect a child, and that you are trying to decide how much your son would get to see your mom. And I wasn't sure what I could add, but my grandma was definitely one of the more damaging influences while I was growing up. But since we were just talking about all that, I realized that the problem wasn't really her or how she treated me, it was more how everyone else reacted to that.

For example: My parents and I would go over to my grandparents after church or whatever and she'd get annoyed at something stupid I did, like how I was walking... She would yell at me, beginning with how horrible my walking was, then onto why I couldn't walk right, why were my parents spending money on ballet that was supposed to make me graceful and I still walked so stupidly, then onto how embarrassing it was for her to have me as a granddaughter, to just a general lecture on how worthless and pathetic I was and how I was destined for hell... Now obviously, that might be a little hurtful to a child, but I think that is something that could be dealt with. The problem is that I was in a room surrounded by the rest of my family... and no one ever stood up for me. They all just agreed with her, and my parents would make me thank her for her opinions after she was done. Why the f*ck would I be thankful? Her having an opinion that my walking was ugly... fine, her telling me her opinion... mean, but then her somehow turning that into showing I am evil and worthless... that doesn't even make sense and I think that there is a time in there that the parents or someone who cares should step in and stop her or take the child away or try to make the child feel better... and certainly not say she is right and have the child thank her.

Not sure if my example made sense to anyone but me, but I guess I mean as long as you are there with your son and you stand up for him, he would probably be fine. I let my daughters see my whole family, but I am always there and if they even begin to say anything mean or damaging, I make them stop or I take my daughters and we leave. No one stood up for me, but I'll be damned if I let them ever hurt my daughters like that. You sound like an amazing mother, and I wouldn't worry too much. Your son has a healthy loved base to stand on and that will protect him through many things.

xxx

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'Wobbles'

A big thank you. I'm glad to feel I have helped open up a few avenues for you.

It's online forums that I have often got the most help from, with various struggles of my own.

The realisation why she is the way she is, i.e. that she must have gone through some shit to be how she is, enables you to empathise with her, but for the purpose of releasing some bad hurt angry feelings you may be holding yourself, from the damage done by her negativity.

At the same time, however, whilst realising this, may help you empathise with her, it still does not give her the right to inflict her pain on others.

Compassion is not pity.

It is not guilt, neither, as you still have yourself to care for, first and foremost.

If mum chooses not to examine why she is so miserable, and if she would rather carry on hurting others, then thats her look-out, and she should not expect you to accept it.

Although your mum may play victim with current situations, long ago, she may have been a real victim, but until she opens up to herself and releases the stored up, calcified pain, she will carry on victimizing others. Think of it like an infection. Why should you be re-infected, you don't deserve it.

I find, I can feel more compassion for my mum, at a distance, and ironically, feel closer to her than I have ever felt in my whole life.

While I was around her physically, her negativity clouded my judgement, and distanced me from my own inner wisdom. That, which I am now only getting benefit from at 42yrs of age, nigh on 300miles away from her.

Just in my opinion, I would say why put yourself in the firing range?

This only causes more pain.

Pain x 2, hers, and your new pain.

Don't take my word for it, though, that is just my personal perspective, on my own situation with my estranged mum.

Sorry about the stupid BPD question BTW, I came by this forum googling something, I forget what, now, but I ended up joining and hanging here.

I hope the above makes sense.

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Just thought of something, that might be helpful for you (finally, lol). Before you and Roses were talking about how having a grandparent with NPD would affect a child, and that you are trying to decide how much your son would get to see your mom. And I wasn't sure what I could add, but my grandma was definitely one of the more damaging influences while I was growing up. But since we were just talking about all that, I realized that the problem wasn't really her or how she treated me, it was more how everyone else reacted to that.

For example: My parents and I would go over to my grandparents after church or whatever and she'd get annoyed at something stupid I did, like how I was walking... She would yell at me, beginning with how horrible my walking was, then onto why I couldn't walk right, why were my parents spending money on ballet that was supposed to make me graceful and I still walked so stupidly, then onto how embarrassing it was for her to have me as a granddaughter, to just a general lecture on how worthless and pathetic I was and how I was destined for hell... Now obviously, that might be a little hurtful to a child, but I think that is something that could be dealt with. The problem is that I was in a room surrounded by the rest of my family... and no one ever stood up for me. They all just agreed with her, and my parents would make me thank her for her opinions after she was done. Why the f*ck would I be thankful? Her having an opinion that my walking was ugly... fine, her telling me her opinion... mean, but then her somehow turning that into showing I am evil and worthless... that doesn't even make sense and I think that there is a time in there that the parents or someone who cares should step in and stop her or take the child away or try to make the child feel better... and certainly not say she is right and have the child thank her.

Not sure if my example made sense to anyone but me, but I guess I mean as long as you are there with your son and you stand up for him, he would probably be fine. I let my daughters see my whole family, but I am always there and if they even begin to say anything mean or damaging, I make them stop or I take my daughters and we leave. No one stood up for me, but I'll be damned if I let them ever hurt my daughters like that. You sound like an amazing mother, and I wouldn't worry too much. Your son has a healthy loved base to stand on and that will protect him through many things.

xxx

AHA!!

Right, well, there ya go lol. No it doesn't make sense at all, and i'm so glad you put that little bit in. Maybe your family were scared of your Grandma because she was and is such a nasty, terrible, noxious, toxic person, that they felt they couldnt stand up to her, that you're a child, it won't affect you, but if they were to say something in your defense, it would cause them grief. Cowards!

My mother was similar with her idiot boyfriend after dad died, she let him treat me and my sister like shit, within weeks of dad dying, yet she sat there and let him. Never once stood up for us. She was spineless, and more concerned with herself and what she was getting to rock the boat and actually do something useful for her children. Bitch.

And like you, i will always, always stand up for my son. That is what a mother is for, to love and PROTECT their child, even from nasty relations. And your desire to protect your girls in a way that you never got makes you a great mummy and they're lucky to have you!

:bigarmhug[1]:

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'Wobbles'

A big thank you. I'm glad to feel I have helped open up a few avenues for you.

It's online forums that I have often got the most help from, with various struggles of my own.

The realisation why she is the way she is, i.e. that she must have gone through some shit to be how she is, enables you to empathise with her, but for the purpose of releasing some bad hurt angry feelings you may be holding yourself, from the damage done by her negativity.

At the same time, however, whilst realising this, may help you empathise with her, it still does not give her the right to inflict her pain on others.

Compassion is not pity.

It is not guilt, neither, as you still have yourself to care for, first and foremost.

If mum chooses not to examine why she is so miserable, and if she would rather carry on hurting others, then thats her look-out, and she should not expect you to accept it.

Although your mum may play victim with current situations, long ago, she may have been a real victim, but until she opens up to herself and releases the stored up, calcified pain, she will carry on victimizing others. Think of it like an infection. Why should you be re-infected, you don't deserve it.

I find, I can feel more compassion for my mum, at a distance, and ironically, feel closer to her than I have ever felt in my whole life.

While I was around her physically, her negativity clouded my judgement, and distanced me from my own inner wisdom. That, which I am now only getting benefit from at 42yrs of age, nigh on 300miles away from her.

Just in my opinion, I would say why put yourself in the firing range?

This only causes more pain.

Pain x 2, hers, and your new pain.

Don't take my word for it, though, that is just my personal perspective, on my own situation with my estranged mum.

Sorry about the stupid BPD question BTW, I came by this forum googling something, I forget what, now, but I ended up joining and hanging here.

I hope the above makes sense.

It makes perfect sense SW, thank you so much. I have a question though, does having empathy and compassion mean you have forgiveness?

There is a stubborn side to me that won't allow myself to forgive, because i feel that will continue to invalidate my feelings and experiences, and let her get away with what she's done. Especially considering she'll never take responsibility for what she's done.

Also, you say that you feel closer to her than you ever have in your life, but what about the pain you feel because of her actions? What about the hurt, the disappointment, where has it gone? What have you done with it?

The thought of feeling anything positive towards her fills me with anxiety, anger, and disgust. Maybe i'm not yet at a stage where i can allow myself to empathise with her, without meaning i'd have to put myself in the firing range. Doing it from a healthy distance, setting and keeping boundaries in regards to my son, but just refusing to have anything to do with her, and her insidiousness because that's what I NEED to do.

Hhhmm, so much to think about.

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'AveMaria'

Warning - may trigger Warning - may trigger

I hope you don't mind me having a stab at answering your question on your familys attitude toward your grandmas treatment of you.

Maybe, perhaps, your parents were subtly bullied by her.

Maybe, should they disagree with her, it would not be in their interests.

Maybe she had them over a barrel for one reason or another.

Can you find out (not for me, but for you) were your parents intimidated by your grandma?

Was she the type who you didnt contradict, was there an unwritten rule.

Was she some kind of chauvanistic matriarch? who dominated the roost?

Maybe your family had some form of investment in kowtowing to her.

I hope you don't mind me chipping in with my 2p worth.

I can relate to the comments on walking.

To this day, I cannot walk without holding something in my hands. I cannot just walk with them swinging side by side, like others. I am lop sided, but not due to physical reasons, due to tension. The heel on the left shoe, always wears out much, much quicker than on the right.

Its due to constant criticism.

About the unloved feeling.

Why do we think we are the only unlovable individual in the world, when common sense says every human is lovable, even the killers if they genuinely repent and show true remorse.

I think we hold these wrong beliefs, because our emotionally immature, and emotionally stunted traumatized caregivers, did not ask for advice on how to feel loved. Instead, they chose to deny their feelings of hurt, even to themselves, out of their own conscious awareness.

Of course, one may be able to deny a bad experience from one's own conscious awareness, to avoid feeling the pain of sadness from hurt received.

The subconscious never forgets, however, and whats more, sadnness repressed out of conscious awareness turns in to projected anger acted outwards, often onto, guess who, vulnerable people who cannot fight back. Offspring. (for further info Google "the human shadow" and anything Carl Jung or Robert Bly has to say.

A person can always change their outlook on life, at what ever age, but it is harder the older we get, and the more we repress.

A child, however, if they receive projected pain from the parent, in the way I mentioned above, believes this to be fact, and does not consider that it is not their own bad feelings, but that of the parent.

Does that make sense?

From your posts, your grandmother sounds very disturbed indeed.

Often, deeply disturbed people are very angry, even if they are not physicaly violent.

They are often venomous. This is the pus from the old wound they are covering up, instead of getting it lanced (for example, acknowleding why they are the way they are, and relaeasing their own pain, instead of finding a target to bully)

Maybe your grandma had a grudge against little girls, because she was jealous of them.

Maybe her little-girl hood was dark.

Sorry to bang on about bad experiences.

It isnt the bad experience which damages a person, it is how they handle the aftermath of the experience.

This is why you get Childhood sexual abuse victims like the author Maya Angelou, who did acknowledge her dark experiences, as a yong girl, and grew up to be a very wise, creative insightful author.

May I be cheeky and suggest, maybe there was some sycophantic dynamics going on from your parents to your gran.

I know I used to arse lick and grovel around many of my bully bosses, just to stay off their shit list.

I have known myself lick up to bitchy bully women friends, simply to keep them sweet.

Many people often, seem to treat bullys better, but what a lonely existance, to know, deep down, that one only has people sucking upto them, because they are scared of them, and not because they like them.

I wonder if your parents secretely resent your gran?

I really hope you dont think I am being rude, as I do not profess to know, I just wanted to offer my thoughts, as they may help, much in the same way, I have got greatfully received help from online forums.

It is this type of forum that gets me through many dark days.

I think your parents fear of your granmother, outweighed their ability to stand up for you.

I think it is a reflection on gradma's bullying, and on your parents fear, rather than you, can you see what I mean?

Your example made loads of sense to me. I didnt have a bad relationship with my Grandparents, but the same dynamics have occured where I am not stood up for, due to the fear of someone else to a bully.

Being unassertive and timid in real life, myself, I am not capable of standing up for people. This is probs contributory to my self harm, and my drugs abuse.

Setting me aside, though, I think standing up for more vulnerable people is always a good thing, irrespective of whether I dare or not. I am not perfect by any means.

I congratulate you on sticking up for your daughters, but why take them there in the first place? thats your business, though, I dont need to know.

Again, hope you don't mind me chippping in with your situation.

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Thank you successful! You have such nice well thought out posts, how could I not appreciate and think about what you bring up?! I will try to get everything you asked about in! Yes my parents were intimidated by my grandma, but I don't think that when you are an adult that is an excuse. And my dad was very similarly behaved when we were in our own house... my family takes the respect your elders very seriously. They didn't get anything from kowtowing to her, and they didn't have anything to lose if they didn't. My parents say that is her showing she cares about me.

You do have a point, maybe my grandma did have a dark childhood, although I have never heard anything about that. I love maya angelou so I liked your analogy! I am her only granddaughter and she did seem to hold that against me in a lot of ways. My male cousins were treated much better, although she wasn't very nice to one of them either. But it was in a more sly way.

I agree, these forums can be so helpful, and I am very grateful for your opinions. In regards to why I take my daughters around them. I thought about it a lot when my first daughter was born. But I decided that as long as they are nice to her and do nothing damaging, it would be in her interest to know and have the chance to care about her grandparents, great grandparents, and extended family. I didn't want my bad experiences to rob her of the chance to have an extended family that could care about her. That felt selfish to me, so as long as they treat my daughters well, I don't do anything to jeopardize that. So far, so good. They seem only to take out their anger and frustration on me and have doted on my daughters. I am ever hopeful they will die soon and my daughters will have wonderful memories and I will have nothing more to do with them, lol... just to let you see my dark side a little.

xxx

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'AveMaria'

Thank your, your nice comment gives me confidence

I, too, don't think that when you are an adult, there is any excuse for not sticking up for your kids. Like the other posts above, when some of us are in the presence of a bully, our fear is often so powerful, we shamedly fail to stand up for those who are more vulnerable.

Feeling resentment for this cowardice is understandable, and it begs the question (again, not for me to know) what was it that made them so fearful of her.

I think it is a reason I dont have kids. That, and issues with sexuality, (you gotta have sex to make a baby, I'm not a paedo) that are outside my conscious awareness, but only noticeable by my feelings around sex issues. (for another thread, though, not to derail this)

My family took respect for elders seriously too.

My bully dad sucked up to my granda, my mum's dad.

My granda wasnt abusive to me, but my Dad was a wrongun, and as my granda had a high standing in his local community of respect, a key member of his church, my dad wanted my granda to think the sun shone out of his arse.

Why the eff should anyone care how someone else walks? This is clearly a case of grandma letting off her own steam, on a little girl, for possibly, reasons stated in my post above, or similar.

Maybe they didnt seem, on the surface to be getting a payof for kowtowing to her, but maybe there was one. not rocking the boat for instance? Maintaining the status quo?

These are both very powerful family dysfunctional motivators.

Your parents made the lame excuse of saying this is how gran cared for you.

Maybe hate and love are closely intertwined, but unconditional love, is not, and should not be painful.

There are usually lots of skeletons in the cupboards of families who appear formal, and respectful of elders, and their respectable appearance is but a facade.

I believe, rightly or wrongly, that people who are nursing unacknowledged pain from their own past experiences, project various negative aspects onto different people.

For instance, I was probably my Dads favourite out of our five siblings, but the only sibling who never got hit by him was my eldest brother.

My Dad and My ma, picked on us all, but in different ways. This depended on what aspect of their unacknowledged pain, each child reflected back to them.

I see your reasons for taking your kids round your folks and understand, but my theory is that kids have perception which is much more acute than adults.

I am not a mother, so all I know about kids, is what kids from my mates have 'taught' me. I believe they are almost mediumistic in their sensitivity and can pick up atmospheres and bad moods, and bad feelings around other people. I believe, as adults, this sensitivity wears off, by our modern society, as our modern society is too busy with the less subtle side of life. School also dulls our perception, in this way.

Very young kids are accutely perceptive.

This is just my view though, and as I said, I dont have kids of my own, so am open to other views.

I would maybe google narcissistic grandparents, or sociopathic grandparents.

In my online bimblings about (I bimble as I have not enough attention span to read just one thing till the end, before I go to the next site, for my short atttention span, its easier to bimble around loads)

You will find how, the dynamic is oft repeated in dysfunctional families. How grandparents manipulate their sons and daughters, via their kids, the narcisists grandkids.

In no way do I want to put you off what you are doing now. Have a look for yourself, by googling.

I am going to have to retire to bed now, as I had a 'night nurse' tablet and its starting to kick in. It's 1am here. I am on a break off my zolpidem, but insomnia means I take an alternative sleep aid.

I hope for the best for you, and meanwhile take care of you and yours.

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SW, wow what a well thought out, considerate, and detailed post. Thank you so much and you've opened up some more possibilities.

There is in fact the possibility that my mother had a traumatic and difficult childhood. She has never spoken of anything particularly bad happening, but that's not to say that it didn't happen.

The problem with thinking this, is that it makes me feel sorry for her. That's dangerous for me, because if i start to pitty her, i may go back for more abuse, more hurt, get sucked into it all, all over again. Right now, it's easier to be angry with her for not making the conscious decision to break the destructive cycle of abuse, and instead continue being the victim. It's the safer option.

But i wonder if one could manage to use/have compassion for someone, empathy for them, understanding, and still keep yourself at a safe distance so as to not be in the firing range of the poison that emanates from them?

I think the trick is to seperate the understanding of why your mother is who she is and the compassion and empathy, which should be reserved for yourself and what you went through. my mtoher had a horrific childhood, she then replayed that onto me, just because i understand where she came from doesnt mean i should be compassionate towards her for how she treated me. she was an adult, she had choices, i was the helpless child victim. and now, despite what she put me through, i choose to not replay that pattern. if i can choose that then she should have had the responsibility to choose that also, the blame for not choosing that lies with her, not her childhood. as children we automaticly have to empathise with our parents, to second guess why they behave the way they do, to somehoe despite behaviour beable to cast them in the 'good' role, because how an earth could we survive in this world if we knew we were dependant on a bad person for care and protection. i think this reflex to empathise with our parents is necessary as a child, (and therefore not empathise with ourselves, cast ourselves in the 'bad' role to explain their behaviour) but as an adult can get in the way of moving forward. we no longer have to hold onto these illusions, and i think its too easy to fall back into the pattern of excusing their guilt and carry it ourselves so i really think that although we can understand why they are who they are we should not excuse it by being compassionate and empathetic towards them, we need to reserve this entirely for ourselves.

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