The Narcissist

[roxy222]

Thank you roxy, wobbles, and jenga! You three are all so nice and it is horrible to think about that ya' all probably went through things similar to me for you to be able to relate so well.

m guessing hes someone you value, in comparrison to family who have let you down, failed you, doesnt this give his opinion more weight?

Yes definitely, obviously I would value his thoughts more, but it is hard as he is really nice. He could just be missing something.

Let me ask you something Ave, do you think or believe it's possible that there is one person in this world, who is so terrible, so awful, that they don't deserve to be loved?

Honestly no I don't think so. I feel that everyone has good and bad parts and that no matter what they deserve to have a parent love them, a friend love them, and a lover love them. Everyone has the right to experience all the different types of love.

You were born innocent and lovable. Your family fucked up a chance of a lifetime, and your fiance, for one, sees what your family has been unable and unwilling to see.

That gives me hope, but my family doesn't seem to be incapable of giving love... it seems to only be me. My grandparents love my one cousin. And there was just an article in the paper about my grandma learning how to be a volunteer with people who are dying... and what a wonderful, caring person she is! It made me so mad, honestly, I never got a scrap of even kindness or understanding let alone love... yet she is now doing something really nice for strangers and has a whole town in awe of her niceness. Makes me feel even more like sh*t.

Last xmas I was once again let down by some family members, and felt sad about all of it. Then in the middle of the day, I said "FORGET THEM!" What matters is who is here with me now.. my own kids, my husband, a couple of friends who stopped by. I know the past influences and helps shape us, but it does NOT have to define who we are.

Sounds like my family, lol. They always set me up for failure. They always "invite" me to holidays, then change the place and time... so when I show up with my fiance and daughters, no one is there. Then I get slammed for being so selfish I couldn't even come to the holidays, I don't even let them see their grand daughters/ great grand daughters/ grand nieces... and I get lectures on how worthless I am and what an embarrassment. It is the most vexing thing ever, and there is no way to win...

Try to tune out those voices of the past- they are not here to help you. Instead look around. You are a loveable and worthwhile person- a strong woman who can do this, and people who know you understand. And you will be able to believe it too- I think you already do in some ways, because you have let people in.

That is so sweet! As is what you all wrote. Thank you, it is so nice to have somewhere where I know you all won't judge me and automatically say my parents were right... just because they were my parents. It is a wonderful feeling. I don't know how to totally heal, it feels like my family is constantly sabotaging my efforts or setting me up for failure in everything. I had always planned to leave once I turned 18 and live far away and never have any contact with any of them again, which I think would have worked for me. But, getting pregnant at 17 and falling in love with my fiance who's amazing family lives down the road from mine... it didn't work out that way. Now I am just stuck trying to feel ok, then feeling attacked and horrible... and then trying to make myself recover again. What a crappy cycle.

Thanks all! xxx

I dont think that your family are loving, and that you are unworthy of love. to care for some children and not others is abusive because it sets up an unhealthy dynamic. my mother was a social worker who supposedly saved loads of children, but she destroyed me, drugged me prosititued me, starved me. she was caring towards other not because she was loving but because of what she got out of it. i think your family must be the same, they may act loving towards other but only because of what they get out of it, and they use and manipulate you because of what they get out of it. nothing there is loving at all, and none of it is because of you, its about them. Honestly i think you should stay away from them, and keep your kids away from them, they will hurt them also and none of you need to be subjected to this cruel treatment. you deserve betterx

[Wobbles]

SW, wow what a well thought out, considerate, and detailed post. Thank you so much and you've opened up some more possibilities.

There is in fact the possibility that my mother had a traumatic and difficult childhood. She has never spoken of anything particularly bad happening, but that's not to say that it didn't happen.

The problem with thinking this, is that it makes me feel sorry for her. That's dangerous for me, because if i start to pitty her, i may go back for more abuse, more hurt, get sucked into it all, all over again. Right now, it's easier to be angry with her for not making the conscious decision to break the destructive cycle of abuse, and instead continue being the victim. It's the safer option.

But i wonder if one could manage to use/have compassion for someone, empathy for them, understanding, and still keep yourself at a safe distance so as to not be in the firing range of the poison that emanates from them?

I think the trick is to seperate the understanding of why your mother is who she is and the compassion and empathy, which should be reserved for yourself and what you went through. my mtoher had a horrific childhood, she then replayed that onto me, just because i understand where she came from doesnt mean i should be compassionate towards her for how she treated me. she was an adult, she had choices, i was the helpless child victim. and now, despite what she put me through, i choose to not replay that pattern. if i can choose that then she should have had the responsibility to choose that also, the blame for not choosing that lies with her, not her childhood. as children we automaticly have to empathise with our parents, to second guess why they behave the way they do, to somehoe despite behaviour beable to cast them in the 'good' role, because how an earth could we survive in this world if we knew we were dependant on a bad person for care and protection. i think this reflex to empathise with our parents is necessary as a child, (and therefore not empathise with ourselves, cast ourselves in the 'bad' role to explain their behaviour) but as an adult can get in the way of moving forward. we no longer have to hold onto these illusions, and i think its too easy to fall back into the pattern of excusing their guilt and carry it ourselves so i really think that although we can understand why they are who they are we should not excuse it by being compassionate and empathetic towards them, we need to reserve this entirely for ourselves.

Totally excellent post roxy. You've put into words the feeling that wasn't sitting right in my gut and head. I fear that having compassion and empathy for mother, is somehow excusing the fact that as an adult, with choices, she chose to continue the cycle of abuse, rather than changing it. It stops with me, i'm taking the choice to stop it and not pass it on to my son, and if i can do that, she could have done that too, and so while i understand she may have had a bad childhood, she did nothing to make things better for herself or her family that proceeded childhood.

I'm at the stage where i realise i'm no longer the 16/17 year old child that was seriously damaged by my fathers suicide, and mothers treatment of me following that. For the last 12 years i've been the child victim, and now that i'm 29, i have the opportunity to change the path of life that i'm on, to a more productive, loving, healthy and happy one, take responsibility for myself as the adult that i am now, and give my son a better life than i had as a child.

It's quite liberating. And you're right, i should be reserving the empathy and compassion for myself while i recover from the disease that is my mother, so that i'm capable of giving that to loved ones.

Thank you so much.

[successful_workthru]

Wobbles,

To me, forgiveness is an end product, a feeling which comes to us, it is not something we do.

Things have to happen, before the end product manifests.

I feel unready to forgive my mum, for similar reasons to yours, but different, as its different people.

If someone genuinely apologises, I always find forgiveness comes to me automatically.

Forgiveness is not something we do to somenone who has wronged us.

Forgiveness is what we feel, forgiveness is something that comes to us, not us to it.

Stubborn isnt the right word as what you say is understandable and genuine.

At this stage of the game, it is still about us, and what is in our hearts.

Your self preservation instinct is kicking in - you feel that she will continue to invalidate my feelings and experiences, and if she is not at the stage of being ready to heal her own pain, then she may well still be toxic to you. Why put ourselves in toxic situations.

Neither of us can know if our mums will take responsibility for what they have done.

We may both, feel, they may never, as we know our mums, and this is understandable, especically if they show no signs or changeing, or indeed, getting worse.

However, whether they will come round or not, is an unknowable thing, both to us, and to them.

We cannot control our mums actions, even though she tried to control ours.

No individual can control their environment, and people in it, although many of us try.

I feel closer to my mum in a non physical way. I understand now, that I know she has had some shit, why she is a bitch. I hurt, so like you, I am not ready for forgiveness to manifest itself. I dont feel forgiveness. All valid. I am 300miles away, and thats how I want it to stay.

I feel closer to her, now I can connect a little more with her experiences, regardless of whether she acknowledges the situation or not.

Before, I just thought she was a bitch, that hated me, for reasons too vague, that I was genuinely unloveable.

The realisation that her toxicity is her own, automatically in my mind, invalidated the names she called me, and dissolved the resentment around those issues.

As there was no single incident, and my abuse happened over time, repeatedly, I am still working through.

I would love some more lightbulb moments.

These can give us an understanding of how they became the way they are. The word 'understanding' is the key here.

Now that I have made that statement, above, I am sure they will come.

In the meantime:

I am still working through the pain I feel, I let myself cry, sometimes, things go wrong, and I self harm or do drugs. Other times, I have insights, just those times, when something occurs to you out of the blue. This is hwo I became aware of my own mum having suffered at someone elses hands.

The pain is energy which I let flow through me, but I try my best to do it in a healthy way, allowing myself to cry, and so forth, and avoiding dysfunctional coping mechanisms.

As I am still in the early stages of the game, as you know, I still have falls.

At this stage of the game, it is still about us, and it very much needs to be.

Realistions makes us aware, that when they were emotionally abusing us, it was about them letting off steam on us, because of pain in their own hearts. All we were, were targets.

This gives us confidence, as it shatters negative beliefs we once held about ourselves. Something dissolves.

I hope all this is making sense so far.

The positive feelings we may feel for our mothers, are, again something that only might come to us, in response to events as they unfold, further down the road.

Whether mum says sorry and means it, or whaever course life takes.

We are not at that part of the journey yet.

That has yet to unfold.

All we can do is take care of ourselves, and ask for lightbulb moments. Coming on forums like this. Reading. In a nutshell, self healing is all we can do. We have no need/obligation or duty to put ourselves any where near our toxic mothers.

I had weak or no personal boundaries, and for me, distance feels like its helping.

You said you need to do soemthing like that too, and I can understand, as I feel the same.

Sorry the post is bitty as I got too little sleep last nite due to insomnia, and feel a bit all over the place today.

Again, I am no expert, and all I say, is my views based on my own experiences and what makes sense to me.

I have still got alot to learn.

There is still, much, that makes no sense to me, but it will, now that I am on that road.

Same for you.

Again, sorry for the woolly longwinded post.

Tiredness and hunger always make me wolly, so now I will eat.

In the meantime, take care.

x

[AveMaria]

I dont think that your family are loving, and that you are unworthy of love. to care for some children and not others is abusive because it sets up an unhealthy dynamic. my mother was a social worker who supposedly saved loads of children, but she destroyed me, drugged me prosititued me, starved me. she was caring towards other not because she was loving but because of what she got out of it. i think your family must be the same, they may act loving towards other but only because of what they get out of it, and they use and manipulate you because of what they get out of it. nothing there is loving at all, and none of it is because of you, its about them. Honestly i think you should stay away from them, and keep your kids away from them, they will hurt them also and none of you need to be subjected to this cruel treatment. you deserve betterx

Thanks roxy! I guess it is hard for me to look at it quite so black and white. I agree with you, but I feel that it is easy to judge their actions as bad by looking at everything through the context of how they acted towards me. But, just because they were mean and cruel to me shouldn't mean that everything they ever did should be colored by that. They all still have done wonderful things for people and aren't totally horrible people. They made my life hell, but in that same period of time they helped other people in many ways and it isn't fair to say that I was more important and they should have been nicer to me... maybe they couldn't always be nice. Maybe in order to help others, they needed an outlet to get rid or their anger, hatred, and frustration. I agree that no one in my family is probably helping others because they care... I have never seen any proof that they care about anyone but themselves, but if you do something good for your own gain... does it really take away the good things that are accomplished? Obviously it takes away the option that they are amazing people who live only to serve others, but it doesn't take away all of their accomplishments. They still did help people, and those people are probably thankful and see them in a totally different way. In a selfish way, I wish I could stay away from them and never have to see them or hear about them, or think about them ever again. But, to give my children a large base of people they can believe care about them... it is worth anything I may have to deal with. Like I already said, if they do anything that I deem harmful to my children, then they will never see me or my children again. But I don't want my daughters to grow up thinking that something is wrong with them because I wouldn't let them see their extended family, or that they think their extended family doesn't want to see them. So, for now I feel I am doing what is best for everyone and no one is getting hurt besides me, and I can deal with a little more pain. I appreciated your opinion and it gave me some more things to think about.

xxx

[successful_workthru]

successful and thank you! Sleep tight.

xxx

I had two nightnurse tablets, and still never got to sleep till just before 8am.

That's what I get for using them as a sleeper, misusing them, but hey hum.

I have just eaten, so feel a bit better.

Dunno how long I will last though as sleep is unpredictable for me. I sleep at the wrong times.

I have issues with sleep but that's all I know, no disease, its part of my mental health symptoms.

I know I have control issues around sleep, as I get insomnia, every time I neeed to be awake.

I needed to be at the doctors at 2.45 hence last nights insomnia.

I'll get there, though, just like with other issues, all in good time.

cheers

[AveMaria]

Lol, something similar happened to me last night. I just freaked out and wanted to sh, so I took sleeping pills to knock me out, so I wouldn't. But I was so upset that they just made me really lethargic with voices yelling at me that I was so worthless and the phantom cutting feelings. I felt like I was in hell, but I was too tired and out of it to move. Then after like 45 minutes of feeling semi conscious I came out of it, and my fiance helped me to feel better... so I ate tons of food and had a movie night until early in the morning, when I finally fell asleep. I hate having sleep problems and sleeping on a weird schedule.

Hope you get some good sleep soon and I'm happy you just ate, I always use food as a comfort.

xxx

[Pigtails]

I think a lot of people with BPD have a mother with BPD characteristics. My mother never validated me and I refuse to be around her now becasue she makes me feel like an incompetent piece of crap. It's hard becasue soicety kinda tells us you're supposed to have a good, fullfilling relationship with your mom. WEll, I love her, but I don't like her one bit.

[Crocus]

I read the first post a while ago when it first appeared but felt unable to reply due to how hurt remembering made me feel. But I wanted to say that I know how you feel and I'm here. I can't quite bring myself to discuss the pain I'm in with regards to my mother but will mention I no longer have contact which was finally made easy for me when she punched Martin in the head when he was holding our baby. I wish I'd broke contact sooner and missed out on the many years of misery and pain she has brought to my life. I will never forgive her, a mother is supposed to love unconditionally and not be an indian giver. A mother is supposed to nurture and tend to and care for her child. I have such a big part of me missing all these years that nothing could replace not even a loving stepmother. And to be rejected over and over and over again by your own mother is the worst thing in the world.

I forgave my brother who abused me, I forgave my dad who was too authorative but still loved us, but I can not and will not forgive my mother.

[roxy222]

I dont think that your family are loving, and that you are unworthy of love. to care for some children and not others is abusive because it sets up an unhealthy dynamic. my mother was a social worker who supposedly saved loads of children, but she destroyed me, drugged me prosititued me, starved me. she was caring towards other not because she was loving but because of what she got out of it. i think your family must be the same, they may act loving towards other but only because of what they get out of it, and they use and manipulate you because of what they get out of it. nothing there is loving at all, and none of it is because of you, its about them. Honestly i think you should stay away from them, and keep your kids away from them, they will hurt them also and none of you need to be subjected to this cruel treatment. you deserve betterx

Thanks roxy! I guess it is hard for me to look at it quite so black and white. I agree with you, but I feel that it is easy to judge their actions as bad by looking at everything through the context of how they acted towards me. But, just because they were mean and cruel to me shouldn't mean that everything they ever did should be colored by that. They all still have done wonderful things for people and aren't totally horrible people. They made my life hell, but in that same period of time they helped other people in many ways and it isn't fair to say that I was more important and they should have been nicer to me... maybe they couldn't always be nice. Maybe in order to help others, they needed an outlet to get rid or their anger, hatred, and frustration. I agree that no one in my family is probably helping others because they care... I have never seen any proof that they care about anyone but themselves, but if you do something good for your own gain... does it really take away the good things that are accomplished? Obviously it takes away the option that they are amazing people who live only to serve others, but it doesn't take away all of their accomplishments. They still did help people, and those people are probably thankful and see them in a totally different way. In a selfish way, I wish I could stay away from them and never have to see them or hear about them, or think about them ever again. But, to give my children a large base of people they can believe care about them... it is worth anything I may have to deal with. Like I already said, if they do anything that I deem harmful to my children, then they will never see me or my children again. But I don't want my daughters to grow up thinking that something is wrong with them because I wouldn't let them see their extended family, or that they think their extended family doesn't want to see them. So, for now I feel I am doing what is best for everyone and no one is getting hurt besides me, and I can deal with a little more pain. I appreciated your opinion and it gave me some more things to think about.

xxx

but if your their child, grandchild, then you should only be judging them through your eyes. other people can judge them as good sometimes bad other, but from your point of view it is only how they behave towards you, and now your children, that matters. Nobody needs an outlet to be a good person, thats a justification of abuse and its not true, besides which the most important thing anyone can ever do is bring up kids well because this is allways a person first reponsibility. its the personal that counts, and children come top of this list. in terms of human development its allways parents who effect us most, the earlier that attachment the more significant and long standing its effect, so basicly if someone wants to contribute positively to teh world then the should value this first because this is the biggest difference they can make in life. whatever your family might have done for others could never count as much as being good to you would have done, so its no excuse. I appriciate what you say about wanting your kids to have access to them, but be aware that if your children see them treating you this way then they will learn this is normal, and this can be more destructive than not having contact with family. if you do ever feel the need to cut ties you will at least be in a position to explain to your kids that its because of your family, not them, which is something they can take on board and understand in context as they grow up. its not the end of the world not to have extended family, its what you give them that counts and part of that is taking good care of yourself so dont take pain as the norm, you deserve betterx

[Wobbles]

Wobbles,

To me, forgiveness is an end product, a feeling which comes to us, it is not something we do.

Things have to happen, before the end product manifests.

I feel unready to forgive my mum, for similar reasons to yours, but different, as its different people.

If someone genuinely apologises, I always find forgiveness comes to me automatically.

Forgiveness is not something we do to somenone who has wronged us.

Forgiveness is what we feel, forgiveness is something that comes to us, not us to it.

Stubborn isnt the right word as what you say is understandable and genuine.

At this stage of the game, it is still about us, and what is in our hearts.

Your self preservation instinct is kicking in - you feel that she will continue to invalidate my feelings and experiences, and if she is not at the stage of being ready to heal her own pain, then she may well still be toxic to you. Why put ourselves in toxic situations.

Neither of us can know if our mums will take responsibility for what they have done.

We may both, feel, they may never, as we know our mums, and this is understandable, especically if they show no signs or changeing, or indeed, getting worse.

However, whether they will come round or not, is an unknowable thing, both to us, and to them.

We cannot control our mums actions, even though she tried to control ours.

No individual can control their environment, and people in it, although many of us try.

I feel closer to my mum in a non physical way. I understand now, that I know she has had some shit, why she is a bitch. I hurt, so like you, I am not ready for forgiveness to manifest itself. I dont feel forgiveness. All valid. I am 300miles away, and thats how I want it to stay.

I feel closer to her, now I can connect a little more with her experiences, regardless of whether she acknowledges the situation or not.

Before, I just thought she was a bitch, that hated me, for reasons too vague, that I was genuinely unloveable.

The realisation that her toxicity is her own, automatically in my mind, invalidated the names she called me, and dissolved the resentment around those issues.

As there was no single incident, and my abuse happened over time, repeatedly, I am still working through.

I would love some more lightbulb moments.

These can give us an understanding of how they became the way they are. The word 'understanding' is the key here.

Now that I have made that statement, above, I am sure they will come.

In the meantime:

I am still working through the pain I feel, I let myself cry, sometimes, things go wrong, and I self harm or do drugs. Other times, I have insights, just those times, when something occurs to you out of the blue. This is hwo I became aware of my own mum having suffered at someone elses hands.

The pain is energy which I let flow through me, but I try my best to do it in a healthy way, allowing myself to cry, and so forth, and avoiding dysfunctional coping mechanisms.

As I am still in the early stages of the game, as you know, I still have falls.

At this stage of the game, it is still about us, and it very much needs to be.

Realistions makes us aware, that when they were emotionally abusing us, it was about them letting off steam on us, because of pain in their own hearts. All we were, were targets.

This gives us confidence, as it shatters negative beliefs we once held about ourselves. Something dissolves.

I hope all this is making sense so far.

The positive feelings we may feel for our mothers, are, again something that only might come to us, in response to events as they unfold, further down the road.

Whether mum says sorry and means it, or whaever course life takes.

We are not at that part of the journey yet.

That has yet to unfold.

All we can do is take care of ourselves, and ask for lightbulb moments. Coming on forums like this. Reading. In a nutshell, self healing is all we can do. We have no need/obligation or duty to put ourselves any where near our toxic mothers.

I had weak or no personal boundaries, and for me, distance feels like its helping.

You said you need to do soemthing like that too, and I can understand, as I feel the same.

Sorry the post is bitty as I got too little sleep last nite due to insomnia, and feel a bit all over the place today.

Again, I am no expert, and all I say, is my views based on my own experiences and what makes sense to me.

I have still got alot to learn.

There is still, much, that makes no sense to me, but it will, now that I am on that road.

Same for you.

Again, sorry for the woolly longwinded post.

Tiredness and hunger always make me wolly, so now I will eat.

In the meantime, take care.

x

SW, i hope you've had something to eat and sleep better tonight.

You're making perfect sense even though you're running on little sleep and i so appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about your own experiences with your mother, and how you're now dealing with the pain.

There is one thing you said that is sticking in my mind: We have no need/obligation or duty to put ourselves any where near our toxic mothers.

I agree with this intellectually and logically, but my conditioning tells me that i do indeed have an obligation to continue doing what she wants, because if i don't, it will upset her, and there is still that child like person within that fears upsetting her, and feels responsible for her and her feelings. Which in turn makes me feel sickeningly guilty.

This is something i'm slowly starting to overcome, but it is difficult and painful.

I agree that forgiveness will come a long way down the track and i'm certainly not in that place yet. I'm only at the beginning of understanding, and figuring out that i need to set personal boundaries, and finding the strength to stick t them. Allowing myself to have needs, and allowing it to be about me, not her without feeling guilty. I've also started to understand that i cannot change her. She is not going to change unless she makes the decision to, and right now she's not capable of making that decision, so i should accept that, and only try and change myself and my own reactions to her. Both external and internal reactions. But i think i first need to face the things she's done to me, see them fr what they are, and allow myself to feel the appropriate emotions.

Already, seeing that she's not just a bitch, there is reason for her toxicity is helping me come to terms with what she's done, and makes me realise that i'm not completely unloveable and useless.

I do love light bulb moments and i've had so many of them over the last couple of months. I hope your journey continues and you find peace.

[Wobbles]

I read the first post a while ago when it first appeared but felt unable to reply due to how hurt remembering made me feel. But I wanted to say that I know how you feel and I'm here. I can't quite bring myself to discuss the pain I'm in with regards to my mother but will mention I no longer have contact which was finally made easy for me when she punched Martin in the head when he was holding our baby. I wish I'd broke contact sooner and missed out on the many years of misery and pain she has brought to my life. I will never forgive her, a mother is supposed to love unconditionally and not be an indian giver. A mother is supposed to nurture and tend to and care for her child. I have such a big part of me missing all these years that nothing could replace not even a loving stepmother. And to be rejected over and over and over again by your own mother is the worst thing in the world.

I forgave my brother who abused me, I forgave my dad who was too authorative but still loved us, but I can not and will not forgive my mother.

Thank you sweet, i really appreciate your response and i'm so sorry your mother is still causing you so much pain. I wish peace for all of us.

[roxy222]

I dont think that your family are loving, and that you are unworthy of love. to care for some children and not others is abusive because it sets up an unhealthy dynamic. my mother was a social worker who supposedly saved loads of children, but she destroyed me, drugged me prosititued me, starved me. she was caring towards other not because she was loving but because of what she got out of it. i think your family must be the same, they may act loving towards other but only because of what they get out of it, and they use and manipulate you because of what they get out of it. nothing there is loving at all, and none of it is because of you, its about them. Honestly i think you should stay away from them, and keep your kids away from them, they will hurt them also and none of you need to be subjected to this cruel treatment. you deserve betterx

Thanks roxy! I guess it is hard for me to look at it quite so black and white. I agree with you, but I feel that it is easy to judge their actions as bad by looking at everything through the context of how they acted towards me. But, just because they were mean and cruel to me shouldn't mean that everything they ever did should be colored by that. They all still have done wonderful things for people and aren't totally horrible people. They made my life hell, but in that same period of time they helped other people in many ways and it isn't fair to say that I was more important and they should have been nicer to me... maybe they couldn't always be nice. Maybe in order to help others, they needed an outlet to get rid or their anger, hatred, and frustration. I agree that no one in my family is probably helping others because they care... I have never seen any proof that they care about anyone but themselves, but if you do something good for your own gain... does it really take away the good things that are accomplished? Obviously it takes away the option that they are amazing people who live only to serve others, but it doesn't take away all of their accomplishments. They still did help people, and those people are probably thankful and see them in a totally different way. In a selfish way, I wish I could stay away from them and never have to see them or hear about them, or think about them ever again. But, to give my children a large base of people they can believe care about them... it is worth anything I may have to deal with. Like I already said, if they do anything that I deem harmful to my children, then they will never see me or my children again. But I don't want my daughters to grow up thinking that something is wrong with them because I wouldn't let them see their extended family, or that they think their extended family doesn't want to see them. So, for now I feel I am doing what is best for everyone and no one is getting hurt besides me, and I can deal with a little more pain. I appreciated your opinion and it gave me some more things to think about.

xxx

oh also meant to say that i feel in alot of ways similar with my father. hes a good guy, nice person, made me laugh and 'cared' about me in his own way (as well as all the terrible things about him) but he left me with a mother he knew was evil, and he never rescued me. i still have fond memories of my time with him, but i dont see him because he wasnt what i needed him to be, namely a parent, and from the point of view of the child tahts all taht counts. i want better for myself and that means not accepting the paltry offerings he has because its not good enough. i think because he was the ok guy i held on to the illusion that he would one day be the father i hoped for, but in the long run i had to let this go because it was part of what stopped me caring for myself in the present. when i decided that a feebel excuse was not enough, that i didnt hate him as a person but that he was never a father, and made no attempt to recognise or ammend this, it was so much easier to look for love and care that i actually deserved and wanted rather than replaying the 'not enough' i was used to accepting from him.

[roxy222]

I think a lot of people with BPD have a mother with BPD characteristics. My mother never validated me and I refuse to be around her now becasue she makes me feel like an incompetent piece of crap. It's hard becasue soicety kinda tells us you're supposed to have a good, fullfilling relationship with your mom. WEll, I love her, but I don't like her one bit.

i really think societys a big bit fucked in the head when it comes to parenting. its socially acceptable for parents to treat their children badly in so many ways (like emotional blackmail, behaviour modifictaion, smacking (which is a eupahism for physical assualt, which is a crime against another adult but not a child!!!!!!) shouting at them, ignoring them) if its called 'parenting', but then everywhere is preached that we should love our parents regardless...... what a horrid thing to say to any child, if they 'feel' love towards their parents then they do, if they dont they dont, a feeling cant be forced and it sick that society preaches such a thing. no one should have to be greatful for being born, its they parents who choose to have a child and the parents who owe the child not teh other way around. it drives me crazy that people are so often blind to this basic human fact

[successful_workthru]

ps. Scuse my ignorance, but what's BPD, is some form of psychiatric diagnosis.

As veteren as I am with receiving UK psychiatric services, etc, my only diagnoses have been 'Clinicall Depression' or 'Chronic Anxiety' and retrospectively recognized childhood paranoia.

Thanks apreciated. sorry to derail.

Sorry SW, i don't understand what you mean here?

I found this forum using a search term, which I forget, but it must have been related to one of my symptoms.

I came straight to the boards, without reading any of the other sites.

Had I of done so, I would have seen that it is a forum for people with Borderline Personaity Disorder related issues.

There is also, I think (correct me if I am wrong), another mental illness called BPD, BiPolar Depression (something totatlly different)

I am diagnosed with neither, but hope no one minds me being here, as I share and experience many symptoms, apart from eating disorder, and a few others, I can't think of, of the top of my head righ now.

Sorry for any confusion

[Wobbles]

I think a lot of people with BPD have a mother with BPD characteristics. My mother never validated me and I refuse to be around her now becasue she makes me feel like an incompetent piece of crap. It's hard becasue soicety kinda tells us you're supposed to have a good, fullfilling relationship with your mom. WEll, I love her, but I don't like her one bit.

i really think societys a big bit fucked in the head when it comes to parenting. its socially acceptable for parents to treat their children badly in so many ways (like emotional blackmail, behaviour modifictaion, smacking (which is a eupahism for physical assualt, which is a crime against another adult but not a child!!!!!!) shouting at them, ignoring them) if its called 'parenting', but then everywhere is preached that we should love our parents regardless...... what a horrid thing to say to any child, if they 'feel' love towards their parents then they do, if they dont they dont, a feeling cant be forced and it sick that society preaches such a thing. no one should have to be greatful for being born, its they parents who choose to have a child and the parents who owe the child not teh other way around. it drives me crazy that people are so often blind to this basic human fact

I agree roxy. Which is one of the reasons i've always been unable to speak up about my mum and what she's done to me, and still can't do it now. Because people have this delusion that we 'should' love our mothers regardless, because they gave birth to us, because they're the only mother we're going to have. My sister feels this way. So i can't speak about my mother without people thinking i'm being a selfish spoilt bitch.

[successful_workthru]

AveMaria

Sounds like a rough time you had there, but at least you had the movie night.

I feel edgy and weird if I don't eat every few hours.

I have no diseases, I just feel 'ungrounded' when my stomach is empty.

I don't do tired or hungry very well.

They both seem to magnify any negative psychological feelings which may be present at the time.

I feel ok now but know I will sleep without sleepers.

Sometimes, I just dont eat out of laziness (depression) it kills my appetite, but I need it to avoid the above.

Its like a constant maintenance of food and mood.

I think food has an inextricable link with mood, as does sleep patterns.

[AveMaria]

I forgave my brother who abused me, I forgave my dad who was too authorative but still loved us, but I can not and will not forgive my mother.

It is amazing how there are bad things that happen to you, that you can find forgiveness for the people who did it to you... and then there are things that just aren't forgivable. I am thankful that you found the strength to break away from your mother, even if it took such a horrible action to make it happen. You deserve wonderful things in life, and I hope they are all coming to you now.

Have you ever had to explain your decision to anyone doesn't know part of the story already or who hasn't experienced anything similar? My whole family was horrible to me, but they didn't cross the line over to abuse very often. And like I've mentioned before, in many other parts of their lives they are people that others look up to and that others like. I always feel that it would be better for me to cut them all completely out of my life, but I don't feel that in my case (not in other's who have told about their experiences on here) I can justify it to anyone. And that makes me think it is wrong. Invalidation, rejection, neglect, unpredictable moods/values/rules, unexplainable rage, always feeling that they saw something inherently bad in me, no caring and no love... those were the things that made me view myself as worthless, evil, stupid, ugly, pathetic, bad, horrible... but I don't have a sob story about how abusive they were... I just have that I was really sensitive and couldn't deal with their idea of raising a child. That is my problem and they don't think they ever did anything wrong. They consider themselves a wonderful family, that I never fit into... that I am too sensitive and argumentative and won't follow the rules. They don't mention that they rules changed all the time depending on how they were feeling, since when has having an opinion been argumentative? Why isn't it enough that their actions have always made me feel like sh*t? Why does there have to be a right and wrong... and I am always wrong? And why do you have to defend your choice to people who have never been through anything like this? I wish people would just accept that some people shouldn't have children, and that if you have bad parents, you do not have to let them treat you horribly for the rest of your life.

Ooops, sorry for the rant. I dont think it even made sense. I am just frustrated that I can't seem to find a way to cut my family out of my life and that I don't even feel I am entitled too. I feel like a child still getting thrown down the stairs for saying I didn't want anything to eat for supper because I ate at a friend's house. I wish I could just grow up sometimes.

[Crocus]

Bipolar is referred to as just BP whilst borderline personality disorder is referred to as BPD, but this forum is for all kinds of mental health problems not just bpd.

[Crocus]

I broke contact with her many times and her family would regularly tell me I should make up with her as you only get one mum and all that. My gran especially found it hard even though she herself did not get on with her. But one day I realised that despite not getting on she still loved her daughter and in the middle of an argument I said "I love you gran" and leant over to kiss her. She said "We do get on really don't we and kissed me back" after that she never raised the subject again and we never had another argument. She died a couple of months later and I'm glad I had that revelation as I stood there in front of her and that we reconciled our differences. As for other people, they don't live near by and have not witnessed how cruel my mum has treated me so their opinions don't matter to me. My dad understands and has always been a shoulder to cry on when she hurt me. My brother has nothing to do with my mum either and has said she will never meet his daughter, he fully understands how terrible she is and has told me for a long time to break contact with her. He even said that she has treated me even worse than how she treated him.

[Wobbles]

ps. Scuse my ignorance, but what's BPD, is some form of psychiatric diagnosis.

As veteren as I am with receiving UK psychiatric services, etc, my only diagnoses have been 'Clinicall Depression' or 'Chronic Anxiety' and retrospectively recognized childhood paranoia.

Thanks apreciated. sorry to derail.

Sorry SW, i don't understand what you mean here?

I found this forum using a search term, which I forget, but it must have been related to one of my symptoms.

I came straight to the boards, without reading any of the other sites.

Had I of done so, I would have seen that it is a forum for people with Borderline Personaity Disorder related issues.

There is also, I think (correct me if I am wrong), another mental illness called BPD, BiPolar Depression (something totatlly different)

I am diagnosed with neither, but hope no one minds me being here, as I share and experience many symptoms, apart from eating disorder, and a few others, I can't think of, of the top of my head righ now.

Sorry for any confusion

You're more than welcome here and i for one appreciate your input.

[AveMaria]

I don't think I am strong enough to do that. It seems like an impossible dream. The one time I tried to explain part of it, without going into details, to my fiance's family... they totally didn't get it. They are really family centered and it just seemed to make them dislike me and think something is wrong with me, which just made me feel worse. Now so much of my life is tied to my parents, I don't know how to even get away. How depressing. I think maybe therapy and some sort of acceptance might work ok, better a band-aid than nothing. Lol.

xxx

[roxy222]

I forgave my brother who abused me, I forgave my dad who was too authorative but still loved us, but I can not and will not forgive my mother.

It is amazing how there are bad things that happen to you, that you can find forgiveness for the people who did it to you... and then there are things that just aren't forgivable. I am thankful that you found the strength to break away from your mother, even if it took such a horrible action to make it happen. You deserve wonderful things in life, and I hope they are all coming to you now.

Have you ever had to explain your decision to anyone doesn't know part of the story already or who hasn't experienced anything similar? My whole family was horrible to me, but they didn't cross the line over to abuse very often. And like I've mentioned before, in many other parts of their lives they are people that others look up to and that others like. I always feel that it would be better for me to cut them all completely out of my life, but I don't feel that in my case (not in other's who have told about their experiences on here) I can justify it to anyone. And that makes me think it is wrong. Invalidation, rejection, neglect, unpredictable moods/values/rules, unexplainable rage, always feeling that they saw something inherently bad in me, no caring and no love... those were the things that made me view myself as worthless, evil, stupid, ugly, pathetic, bad, horrible... but I don't have a sob story about how abusive they were... I just have that I was really sensitive and couldn't deal with their idea of raising a child. That is my problem and they don't think they ever did anything wrong. They consider themselves a wonderful family, that I never fit into... that I am too sensitive and argumentative and won't follow the rules. They don't mention that they rules changed all the time depending on how they were feeling, since when has having an opinion been argumentative? Why isn't it enough that their actions have always made me feel like sh*t? Why does there have to be a right and wrong... and I am always wrong? And why do you have to defend your choice to people who have never been through anything like this? I wish people would just accept that some people shouldn't have children, and that if you have bad parents, you do not have to let them treat you horribly for the rest of your life.

Ooops, sorry for the rant. I dont think it even made sense. I am just frustrated that I can't seem to find a way to cut my family out of my life and that I don't even feel I am entitled too. I feel like a child still getting thrown down the stairs for saying I didn't want anything to eat for supper because I ate at a friend's house. I wish I could just grow up sometimes.

everything you describe about your parents behaviour towards you is abusive. it must have been horribley confusing. i know when its emotional abuse like this its much harder to identify it as abuse but it absolutely is, and if anything this makes it more truamatic. go easy on yourself, its not simple to stand by your truth after a lifetime of being trampled on. it takes timex

[successful_workthru]

Wobbles

I can relate to the guilt you describe.

Mine may be different, and I think I can only retrospectively articulate it at a distance.

It was pseudo guilt.

I can't think exactly what, but mum used to brainwash me somehow into feeling obliged.

I will elaborate on this when I have had more sleep, so long as I am not feeling sensitive.

You know how it goes.

I will elaborate as soon as I can though.

I felt she brainwashed me into not being able to recognise when I was being bullied.

For instance, she would just walk into my bedroom without knocking.

Another thing is she would burst in my bedroom when I was sleeping while she was getting ready for an early start at work, and turn on the light.

When I tried to challenge what I thought was a bit disrespectful, I got comments like selfish, petty, etc.

My family brainwashed me into believing I was self obsessed and selfish, yet here, where I live, I get the feeling, people around me think I am too unassertive.

I am often being ticked off by friends who think I am not standing up to others who are exoloitative.

I think my friends, here have the most accurate perception.

I dont take their tickings off as criticism, or cruel, as they are true, and the comments are delivered in a respectful way, such as "SW, you ought to be more firm with people, as XXXXXX is clearly taking a lend"

I believed my family manipulated my mind.

What do I owe them? nada.

I used to do alot of housework for my mum, me, a girl who should be out exploring the world.

I had no choice.

They used to victimize me, and then call me a victim.

They tret me like a maid, then called me a slave.

Your post has given me food for thought, though, as I am wondering, only wondering though, whether the close proximity clouded my views, so my priorities were all wrong.

EG, do this for mum, to keep her sweet.

I had to pay close attention to my pronuniciaton of words to my mum, so I couldnt even have a relaxed conversation with her.

I remember feeling I ought to respect her, but Wobbles, honestly, right now, these are only vague notions.

I am tending towards close proximity distorting my views, but am opening my mind to see what else comes up.

Maybe I had another motive to feel 'duty' to them.

Maybe if I dont wipe their arses when they are old, like they did with me as a baby, I will owe them.

I doubt it strongly though.

The way I feel towards my parents, I wouldnt trust myself to be around them, if they were alone and vulnerable, as I am still very disturbed, and may be a violence risk to them, due to my fragile mind.

I am not boasting, as I am soft in this respect.

It is more an admission of my ego fragility, to say, if mum or dad needed looking after, while sick, and I got asked, I seriously think they would be at risk.

The unresolved anger in me says "Mum/Dad, your in bed ill, and vulnereable, and we are alone, the tables are turned"

I like to think I am a bigger person than that, although the neanderthal in me is tempted.

I would not put myself in that position.

They made themselves look abusers of vulnerables, but why should I, I am better.

I owe them sweet FA.

OK they brought me up, they gave me life, but they did not allow me to live it.

My mum must have played some guilt cards, for me to stay so long.

I didnt leave home till 26.

I hadnt the confidence to thrive on my own till then.

Till I could stand no more, and obtained a cheap house, of which I have moved from since.

I do not deny, it is painful to watch our mums let their wounds fester, and splurt out infectious pus, with no apparent regard, to whom that pus infects.

I resent my mum for not having the courage to heal, but at times when it really gets to me, I remind myself that there are things that I havent got the courage to look at and deal with in my own life.

I also think, if I were in her situation, I would have responded exactly the same, as the circumstances surrounding the issue would be the same. Had I have had all of her experiences that go up to make her character, then I would also be operating the same defensive barriers as her.

This helps me put myself in her shoes, but does not mean I am guilty or owe her anything.

Its all about personal responsibility.

For me, self healing is priority, for mum, all I can do, is wish her insight and guidance, and no more.

I think, yes, like you say, we should concentrate on our feelings about the issue, and how it affects us. What does it mean to us etc. When we ask ourselves questions like this, we find answers come to us. May not be straight away, but they do come.

I am concentrating on the same, starting with internal, as there is no external for me, it is on hold, until further developments in the process takes place.

And, it is a process.

I am in no position to advise you on what to do, and you sound like you have a very good handle on things, a great understanding, and a willingness to explore your feelings on the issue.

For what its worth, a suggestion, but can take or leave, maybe do what I am doing, asking myself questions about what it all means to me, and other stuff.

I even wrote a load of pages in a notepad last night, but it felt great, like I had talked to someone.

Seeing that she's not just a bitch, there is reason for her toxicity did wonders for helping me twoards coming to terms with what mum did.

The unlovable, and useless wrong beliefs, do seem to just dissolve on realising there is a reason for their toxicity, dosen't it?

I wish I could find a metaphor to illustrate that, but a dissolution does take place.

A bit like, "Ice is ice, no more, when you pour warm water on it, as it can not be ice, then"

I hope that anaology makes sense to you.

If not, again, I will xplain.

I also wish you more LB moments, and I hope your journey continues and you find peace.

Again, sorry the post is long, wolly, and some real dodgy spellings but your posts are actually helping me in a massive way, as they are opening up various questions in my own mind, such as those stated above.

x

[successful_workthru]

roxy

first of all 'scuse the individual posts.

Long ones with multiple replys just mash my head, so I can only manage to communicate with separete ones.

I think society is authoriarian for its own agenda, social control (but that subject is outside of the scope of this forum so I wont go into it in any more depth)

Society is a macrocosm for the family, and like the family, it is dysfunctional, and authoritarian.

For anyone who is interested, Google Wilhem Reich, but be warned, his work is also a possible trigger, as it deals with the issue in a wholistic way, as well as a microcosmal way. He touches on sensitive subjects, which is the possible trigger for some of us members. This is why this bit is red, and I hope it is adequate notification. Reich is a very interesting man. I call him the tesla of the psychoanalytical world.

Your point about smacking and its euphemistic excuse for abuse is spot on for me.

Society is not encouraged, however covertly to mistreat its kids from an early age, for no reason.

Many, but not all parents are immature and spineless, and not all had the choice as to whether they got pregnant or not, I'm talking in the days when contraception and abortion issues were alot different. Also when men had sovereighnty over women.

OK its centuries ago, but one generation follows another, and whilst, cruel barbaric regimes may die, the effects are passed down on to the next generation, and so forth.

I hope that makes sense.

[successful_workthru]

Wobbles

We are only convinced we are selfish spoilt bitches, (yep, I've had that refrain thrown at me, many a time) because to view us as such, fits in with the whole false family dynamic, where the bully abusers fragile ego gets protected.

We now know we are not selfish spoilt bitches.

On the surface also, it is easy to accuse us of being cheeky? how dare we disagree with mum? have we no respect?

All fake, all phoney, all fraud.

Even our sisters, however, must convince themselves we are, to maintain the false structure, that they, cling onto, as they are too insecure to look at.

They feel that they are not strong enough to face the mental upheaval, the truth would bring.

Much in the same way a battered spouse stays with the spouse batterer, as this kind of hell is the devil they know.

The more honest sister, (the falsely named spoiled bitch) is strong enough to face the mental upheaval.

They are not afraid of jumping into a fire, should they jump out of their frying pan.

They are open to the possibility, that should they jump out of the pan, there will be fluff and not fire.

Does this metaphor make sense, as I find it easier to write in metaphor, its my thinking style, maybe a symptom?

I hope no one minds my ramblings.

These make sense to me, but I do not set them in stone, as I am learning and at an early stage of learning. Therefore, the more I learn, the more I understand, and thus, I am willing to be corrected, if any content of my posts does not make sense etc.