Empathy And Identifying With Outsiders

[Data]

I met my abuser 7 years later as an adult, and tried to demand answers, and met such an immense lack of guilt/remorse/sense of wrong that I was stunned. His only comment to me was "you've ruined my life" because he'd been demoted when convicted. I'd ruined his life?!

I really am struggling with the good/evil thing, I don't like to feel "superior" to people. However, I suppose if I was confronted by an abuser with no remorse, I would feel anger and disgust.

Thats a shocking story, rebecca. Thanks for educating me about the issue, and for having the courage to share.

[Tray]

to make it clear...

neither me nor meme have urges in that department, we were just comenting on how we find it hard to control the urges we do get.

pedophilia IS a mental health prob, IN MOST CASES,,, but there are some who do it, for power, sadist release, just because they can...

personally, yes i have suffered, only recently coming to terms with it, but that doesnt make me feel any different, i atill think a lot of these people need help, not hatred.

picture this, and abused child grows up, thinking this is how to show love/compassion, by abusing those childrenclosest to you, your own kids, their friends... is that wrong? morally and mentally, to the child yes, but to the adult who has only ever been shown love and kindness in that way, no. its what has been forced into their mind, their lifestyle, their being... would it not be better to counsel those kids when they have been abused, instead of letting them mature thinking that this behaviour is acceptable? would it not be better that people who are starting to have those type of thoughts and issues, have a safe place to go for help, before they act on them, without regard of disgust and reprimanding by society?

abuse in any form is always going to be a hard, painful subject. i know many people who think that abusers should be hanged, full stop. BUT they are also aware of my feelings on the subject, and they do understand where i am comingfrom...

Lilly, anglo was not making any threats, and i didnt take them as that, it was just his opinion on the matter, and that is hos right.

[Data]

Lilly, anglo was not making any threats, and i didnt take them as that, it was just his opinion on the matter, and that is hos right.

Thanks for your support Tray but I (and at least one other person) found angelsavo's comments intimidating and I was grateful to Lilly for saying something.

[SwissRoll]

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

I agree with this,all paedo's on my opinion are sick,Having been sexualy abused myself, in my opinion i would chop off there private parts off seriously,I am mentaly scarred from my trauma.

[Ruth24]

This topic has been dragged up from nowhere and is causing a stir.

This is to do with meme's empathy with outsiders (I have to say, choosing paedophiles was not a clever thing to do). Some paedophiles are sociopaths, and have no remorse. Some are socially created, were abused themselves and hate themselves for what they are doing and not sociopathic, (I assume these are the paedophiles that meme was talking about?) Correct me if i am wrong meme.

However, whether it be a sociially created paedophile (which I personally think is an illness and can be treated, to an extent with intense therapy), or a sociopath, both make that choice to abuse. I feel that saying 'they can't stop themselves' or 'i can't help it, i was abused myself' are lame excuses. I don't feel that being a sociopath is a MH illness, but I could be wrong.

We all have control over what we do, and we all have to take responsibility for our actions. Some people with mental health issues have difficulty in controlling their behaviour. But again, that is no excuse. We make choices, we know the consequences. However, sociopaths don't care, they are a different kettle of fish altogether. In this ramble i am referring to the socially made paedophile because i think none of us ca relate to sociopaths.

That is why I can't empathise with these people. Regardless of their motivation, they can stop but choose not not to. They may find it hard to control their urges, but they don't have to abuse. They do it anyway, and the consequences can be devastating.

I find it difficult to understand how anybody can empathise (except other abusers), but that is just my opinion

[Sammy]

I think also that the word empathise means to understand how that person feels, and I don't think anyone (even those that claim they do - except others like them) can really empathise with a paedophile, because seriously all of this is just speculation on how you THINK the paedophile feels and thinks. You may be able to identify with paedophile as an outsider but not in other ways. I don't believe sado/massachism urges are in any way the same kind of urges paedophiles feel or even similar motivation. Like I said it is simply speculation, noone really knows what is going on in the mind of a paedophile especially as Ruth said, the ones that are sociapaths. In fact I did a bit of research into this and it is common for paedophile's not to even know they are doing anything (morally) wrong although they do know they are breaking the law. Sado/massachists know when they are doing something wrong, but also when practiced is done with a consenting adult - two things that are missing from the equation when abusing a child. So personally I don't like the comparison between the two.

[Data]

I chose to talk about paedophiles because I felt uncomfortable about feeling empathy for them, and I wanted help to work through that (as well as other issues). Part of the reason was I saw a sad TV program a while ago about a paedophile who committed suicide because he could not control his urges.

After reading the responses I think you are right, these people want power over kids and choose to hurt them.

And Sammy is right; I can't possibly imagine what is going on in the minds of these people, I am imagining some common ground based on the really loose concept of being an 'outsider', and projecting my own feelings onto them - which is silly.

I still find it hard to regard them as sub-human but now think I should definitely not feel sorry for them. Thanks for the responses.

[Sammy]

Also I think what is important to remember is the difference between a paedophile and a convicted paedophile. A paedophile is often a trusted, respected member of the community - they are not 'normally' outsiders. Many will be working with children or involving themselves in family life, manipulating others so they become trusted. Many will groom the child from the 'inside' of a circle of trust ie: family, teachers, as we know from the past priests, child care workers etc...

So even then, you wouldn't be able to identify with them as an outsider because they are not an outsider.

It is only once they are convicted that they then become an 'outsider', or at least whilst inprisoned. Following release they may be the outsider in their community but many soon seek out others like themselves and form a paedophile ring, meaning they have many 'friends' like themselves who are loyal to one another, have deep trust in one another, support one another in their horrendous 'urges and practices' etc... So again they are no longer the outsider and most likely have more close, trusted and understanding 'friends' than you or I have.

Most do not feel regret or sorrow because of their actions, and only feel it because they got caught, suffer the consequenes and are outcasts within a community - and even then only if the community has been made awares which in most cases they are not. Many are given new identities and moved to an area where they are unknown.

Where it may be more difficult for them to regain a position of trust, due to the sex offenders register which now all employees of places that involve working with children check on before employment, this does not stop them from still becoming someone in the community that may appear to be a respectful member of the community. Because a paedophile does not stand out, they don't fit any stereotype of some guy loitering at the local park wearing a mac.

[Roses]

This is all bullshit. If you open a thread about bloody paedophiles on a mental health website you are luck you only got opinons from a lot of people and that you didn't get any really abusive posts. Angelsavo is no more initimidating than a little kitten. Get a life please and stop talking about feeling sorry for paedophiles. It's sick.

[Tray]

ithink this thread has gone off topic now. it was about empathy, althou looking throu, i think empathy is the wrong word... i think its more... i duno, a part of sadness that we with MH prob's are seen as outsiders... like those bad people in society, not just those people, but robbers etc.

we try snd find people we can relate to, those who we feel are not part of the community we live in... and people who have commited horrid crimes are the obv choice.

no one is questioning that people who have those type of urges should be felt sorry for, they have commited the most terrible of crimes, and need to be punished, under a court of law. what i was saying is its not all black and white, they are not all the same, and do not all commit crimes for the same reasons.

meme, i am glad that you have been able to work throu your feelings and thoughts on this subject in what i think is a very sensitive matter, so calmly, and with deep thought...

everyone else, i am sorry if you have been triggered at all, and hope this can now be ended, as it has served its purpose in helping a forum member to work throu his feelings and find the appropriate emotion for what he is feeling.

[Data]

This is all bullshit. If you open a thread about bloody paedophiles on a mental health website you are luck you only got opinons from a lot of people and that you didn't get any really abusive posts. Angelsavo is no more initimidating than a little kitten. Get a life please and stop talking about feeling sorry for paedophiles. It's sick.

I am offended by this. Nobody is lucky to avoid abuse; we should not be abusing each other on here. The thread was about empathy and not paedophiles.

Part of 'getting a life' for me is working through the bad bits in my head. Fortunately now I have a good therapist to do this with and now realise that may be a more appropriate place to do it than this forum for some issues.

This topic had several trigger warnings on it, and it was your choice to read it.

[SwissRoll]

This is all bullshit. If you open a thread about bloody paedophiles on a mental health website you are luck you only got opinons from a lot of people and that you didn't get any really abusive posts. Angelsavo is no more initimidating than a little kitten. Get a life please and stop talking about feeling sorry for paedophiles. It's sick.

I happen to agree here,I myself feel real bitter and angrey towards paedophiles,How can anyone feel sorry for them?They have a choice when they sexualy abuse children,If one of them touched my children i would be done for murder.The people who defend them are just as bad as them in my opinion.

[Roses]

Don't patronise me meme we are all adults and know how the world works. Sympathy/empathy/understanding whatever it is I was just giving my general opinion. Don't think that I singled you out especially meme. I don't think I would get on with anyone who thinks that this way. Sorry.

Take for instance the moors murders. If someone killed your children and you had to listen to a tape recording of your child begging for their Mummy and pleading not to die would you for one minute say you can empathise with those bastards??

[Data]

Don't patronise me meme we are all adults and know how the world works. Sympathy/empathy/understanding whatever it is I was just giving my general opinion. Don't think that I singled you out especially meme. I don't think I would get on with anyone who thinks that this way. Sorry.

Take for instance the moors murders. If someone killed your children and you had to listen to a tape recording of your child begging for their Mummy and pleading not to die would you for one minute say you can empathise with those bastards??

The moors murderers are an extreme example and what they did was horrific.

If one of your children came to you and admitted that, although they had not done anything about it, they were paedophile, how would you feel about that?

[Sammy]

All paedophiles are 'extreme' cases! If one of my children were a paedophile I have to say I would be absolutely disgusted - I can't say I'd stop loving them as they are my child, but I WOULD report them to the police. Asking how we would feel if our child was a paedophile is not the same thing, of course we would all feel different about our own children than someone else. We would probably also internalise things and blame ourselves for the outcome.

[Data]

All paedophiles are 'extreme' cases! If one of my children were a paedophile I have to say I would be absolutely disgusted - I can't say I'd stop loving them as they are my child, but I WOULD report them to the police.

You can't report someone to the police for being a paedophile, as in my example, only for acting on it.

[Sammy]

I think you can still report them, police may not be able to do anything immediately but I think they would keep an eye on them. Also would ensure they went to therapy. I'd do my best to ensure they never got a job with children either.

[Sammy]

I do think it's very sad if you compare yourself to a paedophile or other criminals. There are plenty of other outsiders you could compare yourself with. I think mental illness has enough stigma attatched to it without having to compare us to criminals.

[Roses]

Firstly meme that is an awful thing to ask me. I, of course, would be disgusted and make sure the right thing was done.

If you had to watch your daughter being raped on tape to stop a paedo ring would you empathise with those raping her?

[Roses]

Oh and meme you never answred my question with reference to the moors murders.

[Data]

I do think it's very sad if you compare yourself to a paedophile or other criminals. There are plenty of other outsiders you could compare yourself with. I think mental illness has enough stigma attatched to it without having to compare us to criminals.

I agree. This topic was started by the 'old meme' who puts himself down and concentrates and exaggerates the dark and uncomfortable side of his personality. At the time I did not realise I had BPD. I had poor self-esteem, I felt an outsider. Now I don't feel so much of an outsider, I am not that different to most people on here. Now I have learned to be more objective about myself. Originally this started out as a good topic about empathy, its a shame it has got twisted and triggered people.

When I come into contact with children I protect and nurture them. About those that hurt and abuse them instead.. perhaps I was naive to assume that there were good things going on in there head. Thanks for educating me, folks.

Firstly meme that is an awful thing to ask me. I, of course, would be disgusted and make sure the right thing was done.

If you had to watch your daughter being raped on tape to stop a paedo ring would you empathise with those raping her?

Well to be fair you were the first to bring my children into this Roses. I am sorry you have been upset, it was not the intention of the topic, please believe me.

And no, I would be horrified, disgusted, concerned and incrediby angry with what I saw.

Oh and meme you never answred my question with reference to the moors murders.

Same response as above. They were incredibly cruel and I am glad that they were locked up and the key thrown away.

[Roses]

But you've still not snwered the question.

Would you empathise with the criminals????

Your whole areguement is falling apart.

[Data]

But you've still not snwered the question.

Would you empathise with the criminals????

Your whole areguement is falling apart.

No I would not empathise with the criminals in the scenarios you describe.

[Roses]

But you would in other scenarios? This is a joke.

[Data]

If someone came to me and said "I don't know what to do, I am a paedophile, I have never done anything but I want help because I am scared I am going to act on it and I hate myself for it" then yes I would empathise with them.