Invalidation As Trigger For Anger

[Wobbles]

Excellent topic. Invalidation is my biggest trigger and he rage is devastating.

I wish I could ignore the comments of those that invalidate.

I am learning though....

I'm not sure it's really about ignoring the comments, but being able to tolerate them with the realisation of what the person is trying to do, and challenge that. It doesn't have to be an external challenging that could possibly turn into conflict, but within yourself challenge what it is the person is saying, and if they have been invalidating, give yourself the validation you need, and then spend more time with people who do validate you.

We've grown up feeling as though invalidation is normal, despite our response to it, so it takes time and practice to challenge it, but with help and mindfulness, and awareness, it's possible.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi walker

I agree with Wobbles. Its also true that "acceptance" isnt going to be a stage you reach - its not like one day you dont accept yourself, the next you do. It is more an ongoing process - for each feeling that comes up, to first learn to notice it. Then to notice what comes up with it - aversion, striving, demands, memories. Slowly you see to the root of the feeling, and the more you can sit with this process, and gradually come to have a silent respect for those feelings, so your self acceptance and validation will increase.

I know mindfulness is alternately seen either as "psychotherapy technique" or "fluff", but it is deeper than that. It is the process by which you can come to have acceptance and validation for the self. When people say "you need to accept yourself", it makes sense that you will feell "Oh so simple - HOW THE HELL DO I DO THAT???". Mindfulness is the path that lets you accept yourself, but it doesnt have a dentination. At each step, you apply it, as each step is a new moment with new feelings. It may feel like "I have to do this all my life? Whay cant I just relax?", but in fact with time it becomes automatic, or at least far easier to do. The process just happens, and the feelings and memories respond. You are creating this new world around you, as opposed to taking a series of steps that lead to the gates of that new world. Thats why you do not need to worry about whether you are doing it "right", whether you are progressing fast enough. All that matters is that you follow it. Mindfulness at its simplest is just "being with" the feeling, no matter what it is. Not trying to change, judge or eliminate it. Just sit with it, like a caring guardian would sit with a child to let it know its feelings are heard and respected.

I try to think of it as a path with little coloured rocks occasionally on it. Each rock is an experience, or an emotion, or a memory. Blue ones might be nice feelings, red ones anger, green ones invalidation from others, yellow frustration, pink a sense of shame or guilt or a realisation about yourself you do not like ... When you see the rock, you remember to be mindful - so as you are passing the rock, you are validating yourself and any feelings, good or bad, that come up. As the rock is left behind, you are validating yourself and the still developing and changing feelings. There is a period of time when things tick along for a bit, and then there is another little rock. Or a big rock. Or a mountain. It might be harder to trek over that mountain and maintain the mindfulness, but the exercise is making you stronger, in terms of mindfulness, as you do it. The path is infinite, and does not have a set of shiny gates labeled happiness or perfection. Instead you just become stronger as you keep walking. Mabbe your screen name is somewhat prophetic?

[walker]

i will read this all on different days

now my head is telling me its nothing

i know mum did not invalidate me intentionally

she did what she thought was best just as i did with my children

as for my dad

well

apart from his anger

and times when he took us out

it is like a closed book

i did not like him seeing me cry

i did not like him seeing me ill

but

i dont seem able to recall anything he ever said to me, like i do mum

i loved my dad

but i was scared of him

this is all SO BIG

and i feel SO SMALL and lost

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi T

Well then that is the place to start with your mindfulness. That is your first rock, perhaps a green one. The rock is saying "mum never meant to invalidate me, it happened by accident. I was just too sensitive". Sit with that feeling - dont try to fight it, change it, or punish yourself. If those impulses come up, just notice them too - whatever is, is ok, just observe them coming up. Its a bit like the difference between feeling hungry, and actually noticing you feel hungry. The feeling can be in the background for some time before we actually notice it. When we do, we think "oh Im hungry". Then there is an impulse to eat. Try to place an interrupt between noticing, and acting on the impulse (this is just an example, the feeling and impulse can be to do with anything, not just eating)

If you have an impulse to tell yourself how bad you are, notice it and feel it. If you feel a strong force that invalidates you, notice it and feel it. That is all you have to do, nothing else. If it changes into something, or you feel it is not doing what you think it should, then just notice that feeling as well, moment by moment. All you are doing is noticing, and being with it. Nothing more. You will feel all sorts of sensations, good and bad. Again, just be with them. If you feel that all you deserve is pain, notice that too. You will almost certainly feel it - the practice is not trying to make pain go away - just to sit with it. In that way, the part of you that wants to punish you will have its way - let it, and notice it. Just look at it, like it were someone on a bus who is unaware of you.

Do this despite any feelings that tell you otherwise. Just notice - that is all.

[profound1]

Fab thread hummm

I havent time to read through all the posts but to answer your initial post yes invalidation triggers me big time, I can relate to Walkers red nuclear button.

The effects of being invalidated are not over though when I have had an angry outburst or confronted the invalidating individual. It lasts for days, weeks and can be enough to send me on a massive downer, I feel very upset childlike and hurt. I try to avoid people that I know are invalidating but it isn't always possible.

Some good replies here and have bookedmarked the link from Wobbles. Invalidation just confirms my whole beliefs about myself, all the negative self talk is confirmed by the invalidater and I think this is why it affects me so badly. With the black and white there is no grey any positive thoughts I have about myself are gone, invalidation throws me to the extreme of feeling and believing I must be all bad. :(

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi profound

I tick the "me too" box on that one In a way this thread has been a real eye opener, made me see how central this is for me. Its nice to not feel alone in this, even though it hurts to know others are hurting too.

[walker]

bless you Ross

i will try

sadly i mostly eat when i feel angry, sad, empty, frustrated, - oh and invalidated -----seldom when i feel hungry

[roxy222]

Hullo everybod

Sounds like that site had a pretty big impact, thanks for putting up the linkie Wobbles. For me, I have known for a long time that I was invalidated, but seeing it all put on the screen like that ... it was weird. I guess its like, you live in a world all your life and it comes to feel like thats just how things are, like living inside a blue fish bowl so you always think everything is blue, or mabbe you dont even have a concept of what "blue" is because there is nothing to compare it to, what with EVERYTHING being blue ...

So if you live in invalidation, you have no conecept you are being invalidated. Something just doesnt feel right, and you dont know what it is, because you are growing up emotionally blind. Then someone comes along and shows me that things can be another way, or I see it all written on that website - and then I have to face new emotions. Anger, exasperation, being overwhelmed, "what the hell do I do now?" - because the realisation of what was missing for so many years is absolute. In one sense it made me want to run away and not think about it, because of all the things it meant I would have to do, change, confront. In fact the one thing I didnt feel was sadness, I only felt anger, but then that is what I always feel towrds my mum. I know there is sadness in there somewhere, there must be. But then I guess the classic grieving process goes denial, anger, sadness, acceptance, transformation ... im just not sure how to get beyond anger with my mum.

I think the block is something to do with part of me still being stuck in that state of invalidation, and so therefore believing I was "too sensitive, melodramatic and making it all up". I guess I am still fluctuating between denail and anger with her ... I think I will keep re-reading that site and stuff, mabbe meditate on it cuz that seems helpful.

Ross

if you cant gte past anger then dont

stop trying, stop fighting it, just feel it, whether or not you 'get past it' really isnt up to you, its dependant on what you feel and that shouldnt be forced, if all you feel is anger then just support yourself with that feeling

[roxy222]

there are plenty of things on the website i think i would probably say also to some extent, like saying dont worry to a friend, but i think there is a difference between say listening, saying i appriciate that must be worrying for you, what can i do to help? pls try to take care of yourself and not worry too much, than someone just saying dont worry as a blanket answer. i think often when invalidating people use invalidation they use it as adefense against their own feelings, so rather than picking up a child who is upset and holding them and giving over to them time and attention and emotional energy and priority at that time (which requires a whole load of feelings), they just use the invalidation of dont be silly or something similar. walker i think this is the obvious difference between who you are as a parent and perhaps how your m was? from everything youv said on this site you seem someone who genuinely cares for your kids feelings, and who tries to be validating, even if you get it wrong from not knowing from never having had that experience yourself, you dont at all seem like someone who intentionally sets out to psuh away the difficult feelings taht children may trigger inyou by using invalidation to control and silence. your m could have spent time talking to your d about the wellies, she could have asked why and valued her feelings and thoughts, even if she ended up still stuck and confused and fall back on ivalidation at the end she could have given over that time to your d, but she didnt even allow your d's feelings to exist by immediately using invalidation to put a lid on them. your m may v well have thought she was doing best by you, but if she behaved in this way with you then its clear that she also wouldnt have given any time to your feelings, she may not have intentionally been abusive, but she intentionally invalidated, and she never considered it from your point of view where as you clearly try to do this for your kids. i think children can feel the differnece, and although they may still find any type of invalidation confusing or difficult they atleast will have had the experience of feeling that someone wanted to see things from there point of view, and cared for their point of view, which is really valuable.

[hummm_mabbe]

bless you Ross

i will try

sadly i mostly eat when i feel angry, sad, empty, frustrated, - oh and invalidated -----seldom when i feel hungry

LOl I had a feeling you might pick up on the eating example ... it really was chosen at random! I could easily have said "sometimes you get a hurty foot, but dont notice it for a bit. Then you do and you want to sit down" Hurty feet are safer .... my bad choice of example I think ...

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

if you cant gte past anger then dont

stop trying, stop fighting it, just feel it, whether or not you 'get past it' really isnt up to you, its dependant on what you feel and that shouldnt be forced, if all you feel is anger then just support yourself with that feeling

Its interesting actually - I just went for a very long walk, and thought about lots of things. I had a conversation with mum in my head, and said all the things I felt, but in a non-accusing but assertive way. I heard all her denials, counter-claims, attempts to guilt and to turn it back on me, and was surprised to find that I was able, at least in my head, to calmly deal with them. Ultimately it seemed to come down to the situation Im currently in - mum could not listen or accept how I felt, and instead needed things to be on her terms only, so I said "its sad. I know you are feeling defensive and attacked right now, but I am trying to tell you how I feel so that we might have a positive relationship. I cant do that if you wont listen to me, so even though it makes me sad, its best we dont talk".

I experienced a sense of despair for a moment - like "what is it about me that means she will not listen? what is wrong with me?". It felt like she simply did not have any respect for me, or alternatively that she just was not prepared to listen to any criticism of her (which is one of her traits). It made me feel a sense of grasping, like I needed her to listen. I think this is part of the barrier - something inside is still hoping beyond hope that I will be able to get through to her, or that i will reach some point whwre I am emotionally able to handle her. I realised what i want from her is for her to listen to me, accept me, even if my feelings are negative towards her, angry or upset. I suppose, if I realised that she could never do that, then I would feel sadness - as long as some part of me thinks that I may be able to make her see, or change, I cannot feel that sadness directly. My anger acts almost as a shield between us - to stop me falling back into that cycle of guilt and manipulation, and the re-starting of that internal pressure and sense of suffocating.

Mindfulness and walking is good

Ross

[santi]

Hi Santi

As Im sure many people on this site can relate to, if our experience is that we have been invalidated ourselves, its very hard to avoid doing it to others, even if we belive we "have got over it". Sometimes this can be in extremely subtle ways, as even this thread is testament to. Sometimes people say offensive things without realising how ironic or insensitive they are being, simply because it is their only point of reference. You at least recognise it and feel sorry for it, some people just carry on their merry way believing themselves to be correct.

Hi

I understand what you mean, thanks for getting back to me I feel a bit better about it now.

I can relate to how you feel regarding invlidation as a trigger, when I was younger peoples nieve ways used to make me really angry, even if it was not aimed toward me. I am better now and just let these things go just because I feel that if I get angry with some one for not understanding what I see as right then maybe I am no better then them because effectivly Im doing the same to them if you no what I mean. Plus i realised that it is just a waste of energy and I actually scare myself when I get angry and it puts me in dangerous situations its just not worth it. Ive got into fights with grown men before in rough parts of town when I have been out on my own, I tried dragging a women out of the window of her car and I had my niece and nephew with me age 3 and 4, I feel so guilty about it now but I literally could not control my rage not even around them. Luckily it did not seem to phase them in anyway but that for me was the turning point and I new I had to sort myself out, I have been doing pretty well so far so fingers crossed xxx

[walker]

dear dear Ross

you try so hard with me

and i hav invalidated u so many times by throwing your suggestions back in your face

yes

eating is a tricky one for me - another one of my problems that isnt a problem !!!!

i have just been walking too, with benny,

and when i let the pain come i cried, then the lies lies voice started and i just thought yeah - i thought u would be along soon

thankyou Ross

for this thread, and many others

(perhaps Walker is an overstatement - perhaps it should have been SLOTH !!!!!!!!!!!!)

[roxy222]

wobbles you say 'simpley the emotional abuse'. in general it is often viewed as 'milder' probably cause people in general can be so in denial, but as someone who has been through all extreem forms of abuse the emotional stuff is by far the most truamatic of all, especially when coming from the primary care giver. all the stuff written on truama responses etc entirely applies to emotional abuse on its own cause that feels much more life threatening than anything else, and invalidation is the core part of emotional abuse and neglect

Roxy, you're so right!!! I'm so glad you picked up on that, as it has helped me see how i'm still invalidating myself and what i went through. That the emotional and psychological abuse, wasn't sexual or physical so it musn't be as valid, i have always felt the need to justify it and there have always been thoughts like 'Oh it wasn't that bad, get over it, stop being such a sook'. Etc.

It's not just simply emotional abuse, you're right, it's just as valid as any other type, and often far more damaging.

Thanks hun.

i would volantarily go through all the rest of it again, the s/a and r/a from just a baby by many many people, the p/a, medical abuse, neglect, all of it and all its consequences (and believe me thats no mild claim, i am plagued by dissociation, memeory gaps, fbs and nightmares and intrusive images) if i could just only have a m who acknowledged my existance and who even if they didnt love me atleast did not kill my soul everyday for the fun of it. if i could have had that tiniest bit of origentation, that sence of self, some form of healthy attachment instead of it being twisted against me just because i was alive, i am v v sure that i would have been able to cope with all the rest much more successfully tahn i have, that i wouldnt have had to kill off all of my memories or proove time and time again how worthless and insignificant i was, hand myself over for humilation and torture to anyone in sight. i am v v lucky that i have recieved genuine care and respect from others, neighbours when i was little, friends parents and a tutor when i was older, which is why i think im getting there with some of that now, somehow something in me remembers that feeling and seaks it out from others and demands it from myself, but the pain left by being so utterly irrelevant to the m is by far worse and far more permenant than all the rest of it. the one common factor all types of abuse have is that they all contain elements of emotional abuse, it is what underlies all harm done, and is doubley poisonous by how subtle and undetectable it is, especially when it comes from the m.

[Shelley]

EDITED.........NO POINT..........WILL NOT RISE TO BAIT.

[AveMaria]

I can't think of anything to add right now, but this is a great thread! I struggle with invalidation tons and growing up in a very invalidating environment I think has contributed majorly to many of my issues. Its amazing what a big difference being validating or invalidating can make!

xxx

[santi]

Anna why do you keep being mean to me, I never meant no harm and im sorry if i did, back off

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Ave

Havent spoken to you for a while! Helooooooo How are you?

This thread got me thinking about so many things, and am getting all excited about "double binds" and a bloke called Gregory Bateson. Whats cool is that all that stuff fits into meditation, zen and mindfulness - its like a collision of all the things that are currently spinning around in my life. Talk about "when the student is ready the teacher will appear"

Ross

[gavin]

If only you lot were born before Aristotle, Socrates, Plato,

It is certainly not the least charm of theory that it is refutable;

It is with precisely this charm that it entices subtler minds,,,,,, Nietzsche

Roxy222,,,,, and wobbles,,,, and santé,,, and walker,,, and ninja,,, and marbles,,, and avemaria,,,

This therd makes people think for themselves,,,, those essays were intellectual,

One could see the evolution of potentialities also the undiscussed,

And editorial abstinence and the imaginative all come together as one;

And it reveal the fury within, hot spots, shots firing,

It is a licence for the ragbag stranger to join in,

A nice level of sophistication from an unusual lot of people with attitude,,,,,, gavin

[roxy222]

Simple and easy ways we all invalidate others, as well as ourselves are in our vocabulary everyday. Such as when someone tells us they've had a really bad day, how do we react? Knowing that we've had a bad day ourselves, do we always act in a sympathetic/empathetic, supportive, gentle, nurturing, loving way?

Or we do we often say something like 'Yeah my day's not been too good either'.

In relationships where we're comfortable, we don't always act in a validating and supportive way.

How many times have you told yourself to get over it, stop whinging, stop being so stupid, stop being pathetic, there's something wrong with you, other people can handle things like this, what's wrong with you, it's your own fault anyway. The list goes on and on and on.

I don't actually think it's possible for anyone to act in a way that is completely validating, all of the time. Life gets in the way, shit happens, and everyone is different. Sometimes we'll slip up, how often do we say the wrong thing to someone we love, only to realise after that we could have handled it so much better.

I don't think it's necessary to beat ourselves up everytime we do it. So long as we're mindful that maybe we're doing it, and try not to do it. Especially with our own children. And realise that it can't always be avoided.

I know there were many times my mother knew full well what she was doing. And it was chronic, everyday, every situation, my whole life, to me and the rest of the world. That is when it becomes abusive and damaging. A sort of CPTSD when it comes from your mother, it's traumatising, it's abusive, neglectful and so utterly damaging to a child.

Ross, when i read the website, i had a sense of relief. But also felt very sad, very sad for the little wobbles inside and just wanted to give her a big hug. I was so sad that the one person who was suppose to love me unconditionally, wasn't able to do that. That i'll never ever have that. But i've also realised with reading it that my problems are more valid than i initially thought, and it makes it easier to know what to ask for and hope for in future relationships, and what to avoid.

Anyway, need to stop rambling now.

this is not rambling i love what youv said here!!xx

[roxy222]

I can't think of anything to add right now, but this is a great thread! I struggle with invalidation tons and growing up in a very invalidating environment I think has contributed majorly to many of my issues. Its amazing what a big difference being validating or invalidating can make!

xxx

its real nice to seer you on this thread!!xxxx

[Rael]

late on this thread but it stood out to me. what you said in your first post Ross, i tried everything except the one thing that would probably work and i have no idea how to do that. many many people invalidate me every day, i should be used to it. i have tried telling them they are doing it, tried to get them to understand how it has hurt me. nothing.

my general reaction is to explode (when bf does it) or hold it all in forever (when everyone else - and sometimes bf - does it). both options end up hurting me physically and mentally but i cant find the middle ground. talking to someone would be great but most of the time i dont know how. i try but so many things stop me and it just gets deeper and deeper embedded within me. the only real life person i have to talk to is my bf and he is one of the worst ones for doing it. of course im not innocent in this, i know i must do it too and it tears me apart to think i do it because its not something i like or intend to do. most of the time its a reaction to being invalidated that brings it out in me, probably because i am not dealing with it being done to me properly.

one thing that does help briefly is to remember that when i do it its as bad as someone doing it to me, but the reason i do it is a reaction, fear, anger. very rarely is it hatred or deliberately trying to injure someone. so i try to remember that maybe some of these people are reacting for the same reason. maybe not because of something i have done to them, but because of something that has been done to them. i know often it doesnt have to be my bf that has invalidated me to cause me to do the same. so it could be something someone has done to them and they lash out at whoever is there, usually me. being the typical easy target doesnt help either, which i always have been.

this doesnt justify them doing it, its just a way of me trying to rationalize it and remove blame from myself which makes me feel better, but also remove some of the blame from them which makes my anger less intense.

ok ive rambled enough now

xxx

[Sammy]

wobbles you say 'simpley the emotional abuse'. in general it is often viewed as 'milder' probably cause people in general can be so in denial, but as someone who has been through all extreem forms of abuse the emotional stuff is by far the most truamatic of all, especially when coming from the primary care giver. all the stuff written on truama responses etc entirely applies to emotional abuse on its own cause that feels much more life threatening than anything else, and invalidation is the core part of emotional abuse and neglect

Roxy, you're so right!!! I'm so glad you picked up on that, as it has helped me see how i'm still invalidating myself and what i went through. That the emotional and psychological abuse, wasn't sexual or physical so it musn't be as valid, i have always felt the need to justify it and there have always been thoughts like 'Oh it wasn't that bad, get over it, stop being such a sook'. Etc.

It's not just simply emotional abuse, you're right, it's just as valid as any other type, and often far more damaging.

Thanks hun.

i would volantarily go through all the rest of it again, the s/a and r/a from just a baby by many many people, the p/a, medical abuse, neglect, all of it and all its consequences (and believe me thats no mild claim, i am plagued by dissociation, memeory gaps, fbs and nightmares and intrusive images) if i could just only have a m who acknowledged my existance and who even if they didnt love me atleast did not kill my soul everyday for the fun of it. if i could have had that tiniest bit of origentation, that sence of self, some form of healthy attachment instead of it being twisted against me just because i was alive, i am v v sure that i would have been able to cope with all the rest much more successfully tahn i have, that i wouldnt have had to kill off all of my memories or proove time and time again how worthless and insignificant i was, hand myself over for humilation and torture to anyone in sight. i am v v lucky that i have recieved genuine care and respect from others, neighbours when i was little, friends parents and a tutor when i was older, which is why i think im getting there with some of that now, somehow something in me remembers that feeling and seaks it out from others and demands it from myself, but the pain left by being so utterly irrelevant to the m is by far worse and far more permenant than all the rest of it. the one common factor all types of abuse have is that they all contain elements of emotional abuse, it is what underlies all harm done, and is doubley poisonous by how subtle and undetectable it is, especially when it comes from the m.

Roxy I couldn't help crying when I read this, because it was like reading my own thoughts. Until yesterday I had felt that I had accepted the neglect/invalidation/hurt from my mum. I no longer have anything to do with her and have been much more fulfilled, happy and able to move on in my life since cutting contact. However I had a conversation with my cousin on msn yesterday where she was telling me I should get back in touch with my mum and giving all the standard reasons why I should. Once again I felt misunderstood, put in the role of the perpertrator and invalidated for all I had been through and all the hurt my mother had caused me over the years.

Now in the past this hasn't bothered me at all, I've shrugged it off in the knowledge that I knew I was doing the right thing for me and my children, but suddenly I felt so angry, angry at everyone being blind to my mum's cruelty, lack of concern or care for me, neglectfulness, resentment towards me. And worst of all I reacted to it, I vindictively told my cousin all the bad things about my mother, not just what she'd done to and how she'd treated myself and my brother over the years, but even about affairs she had had that are really none of my concern.

My intent hadn't been an honest one of wanting to inform her or warn her what my mother was like out of some kind of genuine concern, but of pettiness, anger and vindictivness. I felt all these things as I was telling her but couldn't hold myself back. Afterwards and still I feel so much guilt at behaving this way, I know it was wrong of me to do, I know it was a reaction I should not have given regardless of how I was feeling at the time or how triggered I felt.

But most of all, after at least a year of believing that the way my mother is and was towards me was accepted and moved on from, that in fact I have clearly not accepted it, I am clearly still hurting and still angry about it.

And much like you, I feel as though had I only had a mother that loved me, cared about me, validated me and listened I would have been able to take all the other bad stuff that happened to me as a child and as an adult. Perhaps this is not how everyone feels, perhaps others that were validated as a child by parents and loved ones still feel the same suffering or more suffering than I do, but I feel for me personally that I would have coped better if I'd just had that support and validation from my mother.

With that being said, I feel it would be too late now even if she suddenly changed and became the mother I always wanted her to be.

[gavin]

The reason your still hurt,

Is your mother has not told you why she did these things;

You will never get an answere from her,

Because she thinks she’s done right thing;

Now what you need to do,

Is if you can research your mothers childhood,

Without being caught, it will give you some understanding

To your mothers treatment, once you find out you will know that to do,

You must move on, or it will destroy you,,,,gavin

[Shelley]

I had blanked out the stuff with my brother untill I was 24, It all came back to me after my first stint in rehab at at 24 for alcoholism.

I told my Mum after rehab.

One week later H and I invited her round for Sunday lunch.

She bought round my brothers wedding video to watch.

Gob-smacked aint the word!

That was invalidation at it's highest, as far as Im concerened.