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Things That Are So Hard To Express


hummm_mabbe

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o m g

you just described in a nut shell my upbringing...

dont overreact, people worse off than you, you have to grin and bear it, i had it hard too you know, i am only trying to do my best, there is no book on how to be a parent, thats just the way it is - get over it...

etc etc etc

6 months ago i struggled to work out why i am like i am and went looking for answers

now i am going to run away and hide again cos it is too scary...

but thank you ross for all your words of support and validation both here, on other threads and pm...

ps - both parents were navy and used to conformation and the way things are done... that should explani a lot

Yes I know that "no book" one. Its like, accepting another persons emotions is a basic human skill. But for some parents, its as though simply because the emotion is coming from a child, it cannot really be meaningful. Its just about a lost balloon, or some bullies at school, or feeling that someone does not like them. To an adult, such trivial issues, after all adults must contend with mortgages and divorce and more worldly things.

And then governments must look at adults, and say "I must worry about terrorism, and my future as an MEP, and the global economy ... your mortgage is only trivial compared to that!". Ultimately, the only person who is allowed to express anger or pain, according to that system, is that one person who is experiencing the most "valid" suffering on earth, or maybe god because he has to worry about the entire universe. "Theres always someone worse off than me" is an extremely useful phrase for sparing others the discomfort of your discomfort, and from facing the possibility that they lack the inner strength to tolerate anothers pain. Useful in war movies, it sucks for children - who by the very fact they are children, experience poweful emotions.

Then of course you have the OPPOSITE one - "why do you have to make such a fuss? [That other child] doesnt cry like you do and get so upset - why cant you be more like him / her?". You're either not as hurt as someone else and dont desrve to feel pain, or youre not tough enough. Really what it comes down to is "that other child would make me feel far better about myself - other parents could see what a good job I was doing, and I wouldnt have to feel overwhelmed by your crying". At least, thats how I felt about my experiences.

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with ref to roses' post bout comfortable silences...

which is exactly why i cant just sit in silence at peace with myself...

*sigh*

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no roses... no pain - jus realisation...

the more the penny drops, the easier it is to understand...

the more i understand, the easier the quest will be...

*draws sword and prepares to fight deamons*

((((((((((((everyone))))))))))))))

cos we all need it after that discussion i think...

Kath

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Roses has more or less said what I would of liked to have said... Your feelings are valid and in everyway OK and I respect/ understand that as i'm sure most people here will....

xxxxx

Hi Harmony

This thread moved so quick I missed this one ... thx for the nice words and hugs and stuff :)

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Ross, that is what your mum was suppose to do when you were little, she didn't, she wasn't able to, and you missed out. What you're needing is your mum. Your little Rossie wants his mum to hold him, wipe away his tears, and just let him sob into her knowing she'll be there for him.

I know how that feels, it's what i was feeling today, i don't know if we'll ever find that. I'm learning to be that for myself, but sometimes i just need and want desperately to have that from someone else, without having to ask for it, without having to describe what i want, be disappointed when it doesn't happen the way i need it, and end up feeling even more hurt.

Keep talking if you need to, you're making sense and we're listening.

I think so, yes. I know she could not handle my distress at all, I dont know why. It was like as soon as I got past a certain level of emotionality, she would start to think about herself, as though my feelings were aimed at her. Sometmimes they were, which meant double trouble ... I dont know why but if I got emotional enough, suddenly I would be hearing about how bad her childhood was, about what a rotten life she was having. It was like, i would have to forget about whatever I was angry or sad about, and defer to her "more hard done by than you" mentality. No pain I could ever experience would compare to her life, and as she was a victim, how dare I make her suffer by exposing her to my emotions ... so i felt like I had to rationalise and sanitise them, present my feelings in as flat and unemotional tone as I could, justify with logic why I am upset and almost negotiate for support.

I felt sorry for her, I wanted to proect her and save her. I guess if I could save her, then she could be my mum again.

My mother was/is exactly the same, and i mean EXACTLY the same. I know your pain. xx

mine too, i knew the details of incest and murder within her family before primary school, all the time i was being abused right under her nose

this whole post reminded me a bit of suicide intervention training iv done. it was very good training although i found it frustrating because i was the only person there who already delt with this on a regular basis and the only one who had attempted suicide themselves. we had to do bloody role play stuff and one thing that became really obvious is people just cant cope with listening to someone tell them how bad it is. everyone rushed past that stage really quickly or got stuck and didnt know what to say or just said stupid insensitive things, despite obviously thinking these were helpful. other people feeling that bad very often triggers off fears of our own dark feelings and i think because it is so typical to run from these others are very often no use to someone who is feeling bad. it isnt easy, as much as it isnt easy to sit with your own dark feelings sitting with another persons, just being there for them, listening, bearing witness is not at all easy either, and alot of people are very poor at doing this even if they want to help they often feel so powerless themselves that they look for solutions or answers or invlidate the person in someother way. alot of traditional normal parenting does not allow a child to feel negative feelings, and iv no doubt many parents belief they are doing their child a favour by teaching they to behave, but from a developement point of view that means that alot of people grow up with out any ability to cope with negative emotions, even if the parents are really wounderful in others ways, so even nice normals who seem to have good lives cannot deal with another person difficult emotions. all the child needs is someone to be there, to hold them if they put themselves at risk, but to allow them to feel as bad as they really do, and really thats all we need from someone else now, just someone to hear us, to let it be ok that we have feelings, without trying to fix them or pass judgement on then or push them away, but often people cant do that until they can do that with their own stuff. alot of people are just not comfortable with not taking action, or with not having an answer, or basicly people are not comfortable with being powerless, none of us can change the things we do not have power over but we can just be there for each other

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Hi Roxy

Yes, spot on. God knows I have had therapists (well, two) that are like this, and definitely 99% of psychiatrists I've seen. I guess thats why being a good therapist takes far more than training, and why its so hard to find one that truly enables you.

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That "Transforming Trauma" radio piece I posted a week or so ago talks about this very subject, of a traumatized person needing someone to "touch the hurting places with love" and to empathize with them, and to stay big enough to avoid that transference, where the helper starts to hurt just as bad as the help-ee, and need rescuing. I think that's something that particularly drives me nuts is how those who traumatized us then became upset by our expressions of that trauma, and then demanded that we comfort them. Phooey!

At the same time, as a mom, I am discovering how hard it truly is to put one's own Dream of Reality aside and truly see your child's point of view. Children assume their parents are mind readers. Parents are under extreme pressure by the adult world. I know I get trapped in my own mh problems sometimes and that has its effects on my own children. I just try to keep doing it better, and it's always been my opinion that if the horse is misbehaving, blame the rider, blame myself. I dunno, too much rambling, i'm sorry......

Anyhow, you're absolutely right, everyone needs someone like that for those comfortable silences, or even the psychodrama conversations or drunken revelations or however we choose to purge that bile. When Owl came to me, she told me of eating everything, the good with the bad, then hacking up the indigestable bits in an owl pellet. We collect everything with our gifted Sensitivities, it's too much to contain, so we cough up the worthless stuff and that makes some (unevolved) people uncomfortable.

Your description of your tonsils tells me your throat chakra is activated and ready to express that energy ball. It can't stay cooped up there, you may discover ailments of the ears, nose, throat, thyroid, and lymph glands if you don't open up that floodgate. It's time to scream underwater. It's time to write "horrible" things in the venting forum. Get it all out. Loud, hard music. Primal screaming. Ranting and raving, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You're so right that it's like the guy rappelling down the cliff trying to coax someone who's broken bones falling down the stairs. But it's still true. The Existentialists had it right: the only way out of this "nausea" (as Sartre called it) is LEAPING into authenticity. I recently moved my mustang horse and Horse Medicine taught me that I must Trust if I expect to be Trusted. I was inside a closed horse trailer with a traumatized, wild 1000 pound animal, and the only reason i was able to safely exit past his powerful haunches was because of the totally unreasonable Trust the two of us had grown.

Your integrity was compromised as a child--that's the same as invalidation, but a shade different, because it's about you being forced to invalidate yourself. Violating your own sense of Truth stabs your Integrity and creates a wound that must be cared for, or else this divorce from the self starts its downward vortex of ill. This issue of children being coerced into violating their own integrity gets talked about in the last section of "Transforming Trauma", too. When you discover that all the adults around you are full of shit, something snaps inside your head/heart connection and causes a trauma of violated integrity. My hubby has this really bad, poor Catholic boy! They make you say stuff you don't believe, they make you sully your Word. "The Four Agreements" says:

"Through the word you express your creative power. It is through the word that you manifest everything...Being impeccable with your word is the correct use of your energy; it means to use your energy in the direction of truth and love for yourself. If you make an agreement with yourself to be impeccable with your word, just with that intention, the truth will manifest through you and clean all the emotional poison that exists witn you. But making this agreement is difficult because we have learned to do precisely the opposite. We have learned to lie as a habit of our communication with others and more importantly with ourselves. We are not impeccable with the word....You can measure the impeccability of your word by your level of self-love."
So by re-opening your throat chakra you can begin again, speaking your truth and finding self-love in integrity.

love ya,

cat

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i just took pretty much this entire thread of stuff to my t session....

amazing doesn't begin to describe it...

((((((((((((((ross))))))))))))))))) for starting it

((((((((((((everyone)))))))))))))) for contributing...

Kath

xxxxxx

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i just took pretty much this entire thread of stuff to my t session....

amazing doesn't begin to describe it...

((((((((((((((ross))))))))))))))))) for starting it

((((((((((((everyone)))))))))))))) for contributing...

Kath

xxxxxx

Hi Ninja

Great! I had no idea that something that I felt inside of me would resonate so much with others .. perhaps thats something to take away for me too :)

What did your T think, if you dont mind sharing?

Ross

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she has just spent the whole hour validating my feelings

i turned up and told her that tbh i dint wanna come cos i been on a downer all week

and i tol her about the mask thing at work we discussed that a lot - re the why should i hide my feelings, and that it is ok to keep some back as long as i validate them and accept them - i dont HAVE to show them all if i am not comfortble, but not to just dismiss them

i told her about the years of being invalidated - parents, media, etc etc

like the "ppl worse off than u", "we had it harder - u dont kno how lucky u are" "starving children in africa" stuff

and she said that was perfectly ok to feel bad for no reason

and we spoke alot about hiding ourselves from people

afraid of what they think

we also spoke about our perception of people and projectin our values on them, like when we act like we think they want us to - is actually our perception and not what the person actually thinks

we may think people are happy cos that is what we see, when actually they are prolly like us and hide the bad stuff too...

we spoke alot about what i said re the comfortable silence with myself and accepting and validating myself...

we also spoke about my main trigger of my opinion being ignored and invalidated, and i told her that i still react, but as i kno where the feeling comes from, it isnt so strong as i am able to validate it and acknowledge it - so i dont "go off on one" anymore...

i also told her that since last week I have been able to ask someone for help - which i couldnt do before cos i never deemed myself worthy of that help... i did this by text (asked for hugs) and she asked me how i felt before i sent it, after i sent it, waiting for reply, getting reply (i got hugs back btw)

we spoke about my car (turquiose mazda mx5) and i told her that i bought the car as i want to be the sort of person that drives that car personality wise... and about how it makes me feel when i drive it...

she said that for teh first t session ever , i had actually spoken about feelings properly

i told her about my plan for next week, i have birthday on wednesday and then 2 days off work, so i am going to spend the 2 days doing stuff for me, validating myself, pampering myself, doin stupid things for me...

she thinks this is awesome... that i have started to like myself and want to do things for myself...

sorry - prolly more than you wanted... but hey... you asked... basically - all about validation...

and it was all sparked off by this thread...

hence the thanks....

ooops, just read this back - boy do i talk ALOT!!!!!

EDIT - sorry oops

and i forgot the main thing too....

and we spoke loads about not worrying what peoples perception of us are... that we need to validate our own feelings and be comfortable with them as we see them, not as the world sees them, and that we, only we have the power to acknowledge them and that we shouldnt give a monkeys about anyone else's advice unless it rings true to us...

and that only when we really begin to understand our true self, will we be able to show our true self to others and get accepted (or otherwise) by them...

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Wow

You got all that, from this thread? You managed to do more with it than I did! This bit:

"we also spoke about my main trigger of my opinion being ignored and invalidated, and i told her that i still react, but as i kno where the feeling comes from, it isnt so strong as i am able to validate it and acknowledge it - so i dont "go off on one" anymore..."

My going off is all internal - when someone makes me angry or feel invalidated, I very rarely EVER express it. I agonise over whether I have any right to feel angry, I agonise over what the effect of my expressing it will be, and overall I just feel overwhelmed before I even start to speak, so I dont bother. The incident comes back over and over to me, and I do try to validate the anger - but this is still a core issue for me. Maybe the point you make about assuming what other people expect from me is relveant - that I assume everyone will act like my mum did, go hysterical, shut me down and guilt me. Prollem is, that means "experimenting" with expressing anger, and well, thats the hard part innit.

In many ways I wish I was the kind of person who OVER expresses anger and loses it easily, because at least then I could rein it in, like something thats useful that I just need to refine. With so little actual experience of expressing anger, and the constant internal debate on exactly the best way to do it, and the buregeoning sense that anything I say will just be further invalidated, and the whole cycle renewed, it feels impossible to even start. Again, I have read every book on assertiveness I can lay my hands on - its not instruction I need, its something else ... and again it feeds back into that memory of how my emotions take me over so rapidly, how quickly I can get to that meltdown which is so humiliating. As my T said to me, I dont need anger management, I need anger expression ....I would like in many ways to learn how to go off on one!

It really sounds like you are making some incredible progress :)

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anger is the one thing i am good at expressing - hasten to add that i am NOT violent (at least not to anyone but me but that is another issue and not for here if u get what i mean) but at least on the invalidation thing - we did that in t last week and now cos i understand where it comes from, it is easier to deal with...

validation of all the other emotions is a thing i am slowly learning - one step at a time...

we are all different - is why we need eachother to learn from...

there are many many other triggers to deal with in a similar way, but,and i used this analagy in t this week...

i am a jigsaw puzzle

i dont know who i am so there is no picture to follow

each week in t, i fit a few more pieces into the puzzle

like a puzzle, i pick up a piece occasionally and try fit it in, but with no picture to follow i am clueless...

BUT

with each piece that i fit in the puzzle becomes more clear

this makes subsequent pieces easier to place

i hope u understand this, it makes the whole journey easier for me to understand anyways...

gone off topic a lil but i hope you forgive me...

ross... if yuo ever wanna go deeper into this and other stuff that i get out of t - yuo only need to ask... always willing to share...

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anger is the one thing i am good at expressing - hasten to add that i am NOT violent (at least not to anyone but me but that is another issue and not for here if u get what i mean) but at least on the invalidation thing - we did that in t last week and now cos i understand where it comes from, it is easier to deal with...

validation of all the other emotions is a thing i am slowly learning - one step at a time...

we are all different - is why we need eachother to learn from...

there are many many other triggers to deal with in a similar way, but,and i used this analagy in t this week...

i am a jigsaw puzzle

i dont know who i am so there is no picture to follow

each week in t, i fit a few more pieces into the puzzle

like a puzzle, i pick up a piece occasionally and try fit it in, but with no picture to follow i am clueless...

BUT

with each piece that i fit in the puzzle becomes more clear

this makes subsequent pieces easier to place

i hope u understand this, it makes the whole journey easier for me to understand anyways...

gone off topic a lil but i hope you forgive me...

ross... if yuo ever wanna go deeper into this and other stuff that i get out of t - yuo only need to ask... always willing to share...

I guess for issues of anger, you and I are pretty different - opposite ends of the spectrum, but when it comes to the depressive stuff we are birds of a feather. It may be that your anger, though you show it, comes from a similar place to mine - its just that the expression of it is different.

You've got me thinking ... I guess the problem is that when dealing with issues of anger, my feeling is that most folks have the attitude of "its ok to express anger - just not at ME", and in some ways I feel my T has presented this attitude too. It may be transference, but it doesnt matter - its the feeling I have and so on this issue, I feel rather paralysed.

I do not have BPD, and I know that for many people that do have it, the focus is on anger management, on distraction and on modulating its strong expression. For me its the opposite - its expressing it at all. Although I am well aware of "i feel statements", empathy, broken record techniques, disarming techniques, stating consequences, "if/then" statements, baby steps, rational alternatives and the congitive reasoning behind not asserting myself etc etc, its a paralysis of feeling that I suffer from. God knows ive tried simple courage and willpower in the past to try to be brave and express myself. I can barely breathe when I do it, and that is humiliating. Thats why this seemingly panacea attitude of "just face your fears / fake it til you make it" seems so repellent to me, and again why it feeds into that sense that the person clearly does not understand the emotions involved for me personally. When it comes to expressing my anger, its not just fear I feel - its almost terror, panic. And of course Im meant to keep that behind a mask, appear controlled and balanced.

Much like you have found today, there is an emotional key to this somewhere. They do say that the solution to any problem lies in the problem itself, and so if it is the fear of showing anger to my T that stops me broaching it with her, then maybe that it what I need to do as a first step. Of course, the same mechanism is at work - if I do, and she responds badly, it could destory the one nurturing relationship I do have. I guess my belief is that relationships cannot withstand anger - once it is expressed, thats it, the relationship is broken. I know rationally this shouldnt be true, but I have an awful lot of real experience behind me that says it true ... after all, when you have a mother that runs to her room crying when you express anger at her, you learn quickly that expressing anger leads to the fear of abandonment. Why would I expect that anyone can withstand my strong feelings?

Just thinking out loud here.

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no thinking out loud is good...

i am still a lil high from t and prolly not in the right place to talk bout all this now... but i would really really like to get u in chat in im maybe and chew the fat outta this sometime... when we both in the right place of course...

cos i resonate with a LOT of what you say here in this thread, in other threads and also the comment u made on my sig... which is actually a quote from a poem I wrote and didnt post... maybe i will post it later...

oh and for your info (dunno if i said it before) i am also not BPD...

u and me and ur t and my t - together - we may complete the puzzle... who knows - we may get those corner pieces fixed anyway...

K

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LOL

Yup maybe. Think we've got enough pieced together for a coffee mat in the meantime ...

No way I would discuss this in chat though. Not to worry, Im sure I will figure it out. Got therapy soon.

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Ross I've not read all the way through but just the first page on here, I totally accept how hard and steep that hill is, and I don't think it's just about validation, I think sometimes it's wanting people to see that psychological difficulties can have a deep impact on what you can do sometimes too. Correct me if I'm wrong, just speaking from experience.

For me, it's that I feel I am judged poorly because say I want to spend a day in bed either because I'm just that tired or because I can't face the world that day, and for that I'm made to feel ashamed and guilty - and that's just one way that I'm affected without mentioning the countless other things that happen day to day.

If I were diagnosed with MS or some other physical illness and needed to go to bed for the day, I'd receive compassion and understanding, no one would make me feel bad about it or guilty because they are more informed about how badly MS affects people. Also people would never say to you that it is going to get better or try to give false hope, or say it's not as bad as you think it is, they'd as you say accept you're suffering and validate it.

The sad thing is I may have Lupus (undergoing tests) and I'm hoping I do. How sad is that? It's not because I want to be ill, but because I feel if I have Lupus then I will receive less judgement from people, more validation and compassion. I'll be able to say I can't do something that day or I need to sleep and no one will make me feel bad or ashamed about it.

I'll be able to go to the doctors about my symptoms when I'm in pain, without feeling that I'm a hypochondriac or neurotic - which is how I feel I'm judged by the doctors now, disbelieved and not enough done to help me.

The fact of the matter is that it shouldn't be like this, I shouldn't feel I need to be diagnosed with a physical illness just so that I'll be heard and validated, no one should.

Not sure if I've totally related to what you said - but I didn't realise this was what I wanted till just today when my blood test results came back and actually felt relieved there might be a physical explanation for all this.

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i just took pretty much this entire thread of stuff to my t session....

amazing doesn't begin to describe it...

((((((((((((((ross))))))))))))))))) for starting it

((((((((((((everyone)))))))))))))) for contributing...

Kath

xxxxxx

hey, can i just ask favour pls, take my name off if you do this, i know its just a user name but id still feel worried. dont mind them seeing what i right but not my name

thanks

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no... you read me wrong

i dint print it out

i wouldnt ever do that

i took the ideas...

i kno the rules of the site

i feel offended that you think i would

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Ross I've not read all the way through but just the first page on here, I totally accept how hard and steep that hill is, and I don't think it's just about validation, I think sometimes it's wanting people to see that psychological difficulties can have a deep impact on what you can do sometimes too.

To me that is part of validation.

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