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hummm_mabbe

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Hi rosie poppit mc tinkle fruit

Im ok, just about to have a shower after watching flash forward :) My hands smell of tuna cuz I had a tuna sandwich, so time to go and de-fish lol

I have replied to your QED thread with a small rant about FF :o

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I wanna be an armadillo, or even better, a hedgehog! Anyone who tries to prod through my armour will get spiked :D

I suppose this is the prollem tho innit .. like, we all feel like no one will be there for us, no one values our feelings, that we are alone ... but even if people are there for us, our armadillo shell or spikiness keeps them on the outside. They might be trying to smuggle in cuddles, and we have a perimiter up warding them off ...

I mean thats what Ive just realised about me. I do feel alone, that no one helps, no one understands - but that feeling is so automatic and all-pervasive that even when people really do care, and are really trying to be supportive, I cant let it in.

true sometimes there are uncaring, invalidating people out there, and Ive probably had more than my fair share of letting those people get to me ... but I realise now theres in 'inside' part to this as well. Its not just other people being mean or rejecting (though that has happened) - I also keep those who would be close to me away :o

But I dont know how to stop yet - it all feels too scary and the angry is still very strong and all that ... mabbe as roses says, I need someone who straps themself to the floor and says "ok get angry, im not going anywhere!". Only person I could do that with though is me T, at least if she did get upset, im paying her to take it .... :o

I realise ive hijacked me own thread, cuz this isnt about having kids, but feel like Ive had a bit of a breakthrough lol

Ross

My problem is the opposite, I'm too eager to let people inside my spikes and enclose them in my little bubble of safety, where they can hurt me the most. I try to be distant and send them away with my spikes to try and preserve myself but I need people and company too much for that to last any real length of time. It usually ends up with me being very physically 'there' but emotionally very curled up in my ball of spikes, so I send people mixed messages and they lose interest in wanting to be a friend, sort of.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a self-absorbed ramble :lol:

You haven't hijacked your thread, it's yours to do whatever you want with. Sounds to me like you're a limpet being bashed about by the sea, with no rock to grab hold of and keep you safe and secure, but you're too scared of all the rocks around to want to grab hold of one (sorry I'm very simple, my brain works best with analogies). You need to remember that if you do find your rock that they aren't infallible, the sea is eroding them down and down and they won't always be your rock, but yeah you probably know that already, sorry I'm rambling again my head is a little exploded today.

I've forgotten the point I was trying to make >_< well basically don't feel like you can't hijack your own thread, you made it, you can put it off the rails. Talk to us, keep exploring the thought train you're on, even if it goes nowhere.

I hope some of this post makes sense D:

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Hey Ross

I have very similar feelings about this to you. I'm 28 and female and all I can feel is the clock ticking. I know I have time, but I had so many problems with my past relationships and so many other things I feel I have to do in life that I can't ever see it happening. Also everyone else around me seems to be popping out sprogs, or at least settling down.

The last guy that I was with started as a one-night-stand. After about a month I was crazy about him and fantasized about us being together, having a family down the line etc. The situation was ridiculous as he was leaving town after a couple of months, but he said and did all the right things and kept me hanging on for ages after he left. Then he got back with his ex. I think about them sorting stuff out, settling down together and having kids and it makes me despair.

I am thiking that I really need to come to terms with the reality that I might never have children, and that if I do it will be a bonus. I think this is in-line with the Buddhist way of thinking that you practice in your meditation. Maybe I should try meditation.

Unless you wanna hook up? ;) lol

Suzie

Hi there

I mean its odd - I have not normally NOTICED that I have these feelings. Like I see other people with kids, and I have some surface reaction, quite often one of anxiety because I feel useless around kids and worry others will see im useless or whatever ... so I guess when I think about kids I never usually have access to that part of me that might want to bring some into the world. I guess Ive considered it, but today was the first time I really felt any emotion attached to it.

Im not sure what buddhism would say about this really. I know they practice non-clinging to desire, and equanimity and acceptance of pain and distress, self compassion and all those things. You can still take action in the world to get the things you want, but its whether you cling to that wanting that tends to dictate whether you will suffer. If you couldnt have what you wanted, you would also be open to the grief of not having - you accept the feelings that arise in any moment and be with them, so its especially not about trying to control an emotion or feeling within you with some kind of belief. You sort of go with the flow and hold whatever comes in awareness and compassion. Thats why I like it anyway :)

Its not like a dogmatic belief that you 'should' hold to either - buddhism is like a training, a practice - more something you test out for yourself and see if it helps you or not. In that its utterly unlike a religion because there are no precepts or beliefs you arer required to hold, no 'articles of faith' or anything. Buddha is not even a god, I always thought he was. he was just a dude who figured out how to feel happy, bless im. LOL

Ross

I've been thinking about looking into Buddhism for a while now. I think that sounds like a very correct way to deal with emotions. You have persuaded me to go check out that meditation class.

Thanks

S

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Hi Antarctic

Im glad you feel inspired :) If you like, there is a great site here http://www.audiodharma.org/ and it has hours and hours of talks on buddhism for free. Ive been working my way through it over the last couple of years :lol:

Beginners meditation / mindfulness (the core of buddhist practice) can be found here http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/

Ross

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My problem is the opposite, I'm too eager to let people inside my spikes and enclose them in my little bubble of safety, where they can hurt me the most. I try to be distant and send them away with my spikes to try and preserve myself but I need people and company too much for that to last any real length of time. It usually ends up with me being very physically 'there' but emotionally very curled up in my ball of spikes, so I send people mixed messages and they lose interest in wanting to be a friend, sort of.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a self-absorbed ramble :lol:

Hm tis interestin

So you are a iccle bit different. You physically need people close, but keep them emotionally distant, if Im hearing that right? Theres an inner sanctum that people arent quite allowed in, though they can come into the lobby? Or is it that you throw open the doors to the sanctum, then they break something, and you banish them to the lobby? Whereas I keep them both physically AND emotionally distant ... hmmmz.

That explains some things... I tended to notice how lots of BPD folks tend to have people around them, friends, boyfriends etc, but that they tend to still feel empty and alone anwyays... or have relationship prollems with those people. I always wondered what it was that made things different for me, maybe this is one iccle thing, part of it.

I never used to be this avoidant, I did used to see some people. Its just the events of recent years were too much, they scared me into hiding. Now Im just starting to eek open the door a bit and peep at people...

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Yeah, I think so. Well I don't really know, I'm not entirely sure really, I confuse myself :lol: I allow people into the inner sanctum but keep them on a watch, sort of. They're the people I'm hypersensitive around and about. One 'wrong' move, no matter how eensy and they're banished back into the lobby, or they're ejected from the premises entirely. But even the people who are ejected, they can still be with me physically, I just can't let them in emotionally, it's around them that I tend to dissociate the most, boyfriends etc. were always the ones to be ejected. The people in the lobby can be with me physically and I can let them in emotionally a little, like if I felt sad and they asked how I felt, I'd say I felt sad instead of just flaffing them away and saying I'm fine, if that makes sense. Though the people in the lobby and who've been ejected can creep their way back in, I'm too eager to have someone close to try and prevent them from doing so and I ultimately just get hurt by them again, leading them to be ejected, but they come back in again when the hate dissipates and is replaced by love again, sort of a destructive cycle. Then there are the people who are banished from Bobtown entirely, they're booted out and I can never let them back in any way, physically or emotionally. I don't have many people there, people only sort of go there in hindsight, like at the time I ejected them, but a year on I realise how much I hate them because I've forgotten the feelings I had and only focus on the negative, and I banish them entirely.

The above reasoning is why I questioned my BPD diagnosis (I'm not sure if you have it, I'm saying this in case you do), it seems a lot more than just black and white. But it kind of is still black and white, hating people and loving people, sometimes simultaneously, it's just my defences have created a sort of emulated grey area, so I can keep the people I love close but not too close, because I can't trust them. I'm not really sure anyway, it's more a hypothesis than anything else.

I hope this helps a little, I'm not very articulate today and my brain is a all gooey so trying to put this in a way that's relevant to you was difficult but I hope you can get something useful from it

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Hullo

No I dont have BPD.

I dunno if you would be interested but what you describe above sounds very much like the "mistrust / abuse schema" that the therapy I have talks about. They are sort of life patterns we get stuck in that hurt us, and there are particular types of them and different ways they show themselves in folks.

I have the mistrust thing too, but mine shows up in slightly different ways. What I like about the schema stuff is its pretty much independent of diagnosis, although it has been extensively adapted for treating BPD. Its just that even within folks who have BPD there is still a huge amount of variation and often different schemas or balances of schemas. Its sort of 'tailored to fit' each person, though people diagnosed with BPD often have the mistrust and abandonment schemas really strongly (as well as tons of others, poooo).

Just thought you might like to hear that as it may offer a route that is a bit less diagnosis driven for you :)

Ross

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I'm always interested in trying that kinda thing, the only therapy I've had was CBT and it did nothing for me, I think that was the fault of useless therapists though because the only thing I got from all the sessions was more self-doubt. I actually contemplated Buddhist techniques for a while but I never knew where to start and it all seems a little scary to me. :lol: Is there an online resource that I could use to check out the therapy?

Sorry for derailing your thread so much :P

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I'm always interested in trying that kinda thing, the only therapy I've had was CBT and it did nothing for me, I think that was the fault of useless therapists though because the only thing I got from all the sessions was more self-doubt. I actually contemplated Buddhist techniques for a while but I never knew where to start and it all seems a little scary to me. :lol: Is there an online resource that I could use to check out the therapy?

Sorry for derailing your thread so much :P

Hulloz

There is a fair bit out there, but there main site is www.schematherapy.com . It doesnt really go into a huge amount of detail on each schema, but the site gives a pretty big overview on how the therapy works. Each time I google these things more and mroe shows up, its sort of a growing thing.

I think aberdeen library has a copy of the patient manual for it - its called "Reinventing your life" by klosko and young, though having said that my therapist is only 5 mins up the road from there and so her patients will prolly have it out for the rest of time lol. Amazon stocks it, but as you are a student dunno if you wanna go splashin out and things. It is pretty heavy going though, and looks a lot to the past, may even be a bit triggery for some...

One small part of schema does include CBT methods, but its like a little corner of it and not the whole thing, just in case you read the word "cognitive" and run off. It integrates a ton of different therapies, inc lots of emotionabubble ones.

PS my experiecne of aberdeen NHS MH services hasnt been awesome...

Ross

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hi ross

there was a guy in the paper last week who has just found out hes going to be a daddy at 72........so your still just a pup :D

im 29 and have a 10 year old daughter....im starting to get a lot of pangs now because all my friends are starting to drop thier first sprogs (3 in the last week! ffs! lol!), and i can feel my own biological clock ticking down. realising im signing up for upto 5 years of study has made me think even more that i will be getting towards the end of my prime afterwards is scary, but the prospect of having another kid right now isint right either - like im being pulled in so many directions! your so lucky to be a guy ross and not have a deadline as such! *hugs*

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hi ross

there was a guy in the paper last week who has just found out hes going to be a daddy at 72........so your still just a pup :D

im 29 and have a 10 year old daughter....im starting to get a lot of pangs now because all my friends are starting to drop thier first sprogs (3 in the last week! ffs! lol!), and i can feel my own biological clock ticking down. realising im signing up for upto 5 years of study has made me think even more that i will be getting towards the end of my prime afterwards is scary, but the prospect of having another kid right now isint right either - like im being pulled in so many directions! your so lucky to be a guy ross and not have a deadline as such! *hugs*

Yus I guess so, wimminz have to pop one out before a certain time dont they... but having said that, a young lady doesnt want to be with an old codger, so I need to still be a bit young otherwise I will be floppity and undesirable.

Didnt know you had a little sproglet already, awwwww

Ross

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Hulloz

There is a fair bit out there, but there main site is www.schematherapy.com . It doesnt really go into a huge amount of detail on each schema, but the site gives a pretty big overview on how the therapy works. Each time I google these things more and mroe shows up, its sort of a growing thing.

I think aberdeen library has a copy of the patient manual for it - its called "Reinventing your life" by klosko and young, though having said that my therapist is only 5 mins up the road from there and so her patients will prolly have it out for the rest of time lol. Amazon stocks it, but as you are a student dunno if you wanna go splashin out and things. It is pretty heavy going though, and looks a lot to the past, may even be a bit triggery for some...

One small part of schema does include CBT methods, but its like a little corner of it and not the whole thing, just in case you read the word "cognitive" and run off. It integrates a ton of different therapies, inc lots of emotionabubble ones.

PS my experiecne of aberdeen NHS MH services hasnt been awesome...

Ross

My experience has been pretty terrible too, I'd avoid it entirely but I can't afford a therapist so it's the best I have.

Thanks loads for all the info, I've bookmarked Reinventing Your Life on Amazon so I can purchase it when I have more funds and when my parents are away, so they don't see it and tut at me. Really appreciate it. :)

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My parents don't really 'believe' in depression/MH issues, they'd think I was throwing money away to some cult or something and they'd laugh at me for being silly and believing that a book could help me stop 'being so lazy'. :rolleyes:

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Hi arrakis

Have you read about emotional 'invalidation' and its link to BPD type symtpoms?

Given what you have just revealed about your parents attitude to feelings, especially 'problematic' ones, you might want to look that up too.

http://eqi.org/invalid.htm

http://bpd.about.com/od/environmentalcausesorbpd/a/Invalidate.htm

Ross

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hi ross

there was a guy in the paper last week who has just found out hes going to be a daddy at 72........so your still just a pup :D

im 29 and have a 10 year old daughter....im starting to get a lot of pangs now because all my friends are starting to drop thier first sprogs (3 in the last week! ffs! lol!), and i can feel my own biological clock ticking down. realising im signing up for upto 5 years of study has made me think even more that i will be getting towards the end of my prime afterwards is scary, but the prospect of having another kid right now isint right either - like im being pulled in so many directions! your so lucky to be a guy ross and not have a deadline as such! *hugs*

Yus I guess so, wimminz have to pop one out before a certain time dont they... but having said that, a young lady doesnt want to be with an old codger, so I need to still be a bit young otherwise I will be floppity and undesirable.

Didnt know you had a little sproglet already, awwwww

Ross

ross, age is just a number, so if u dont get round to things til ur 72 it doesnt matter......my hubby is 20 years older than me pmsl!!!

my daughter isint so much a sproglet...her alternate name is damian-ess! pmsl!!!

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Hi arrakis

Have you read about emotional 'invalidation' and its link to BPD type symtpoms?

Given what you have just revealed about your parents attitude to feelings, especially 'problematic' ones, you might want to look that up too.

http://eqi.org/invalid.htm

http://bpd.about.com/od/environmentalcausesorbpd/a/Invalidate.htm

Ross

Those links are great, haven't fully read the first one yet but the about.com is almost exactly what they are like. Thanks so much for that, knowing that behavioural pattern I think will help me ignore the sort of nastiness, I'm gonna try and blank it out because I know it's just invalidation. Also, it led to a really great article about mindfulness techniques so I'm gonna explore it even more now.

Thank you loads Wossy, go get yourself some Sainsbury's choccie to celebrate a job well done :P

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Hi Arrakis

If they have always been that way, there will be a corresponding part in you too. I dunno if all of this will be relevant, but thought I would type anyway :) Invalidation leads to such deep emotional problems because it is a rejection of the person you are (have a look at that first article where they explain the difference between validation and approval), and leads to feeling that emotions are dangerous, bad, wrong - well actually that YOU are dangerous, bad, wrong, maybe even evil. It shapes your attitude to your own feelings, and that attitude amplifies those feelings. Its part of the reason BPD emotions are so intense.

You may also have a deep inner sense that no one really understands you, and possibly find that if someone else invalidates you, you may either feel very angry, or just sort of feel hopeless and give into it. You may have the very MH thing of being attracted to people who actually treat you this way, and surprise yourself to find out that in your life there are a number of maybe very critical, but also invalidating or emotionally depriving people. People who essentially make those old feelings pop up for you.

Exploring those feelings of invalidation, trying to notice the expectations eg when you feel sad, or angry, or any intense feling - how do you expect others to respond to you? What do you expect them to do with or to you or your feelings? Do you expect them to make you feel better, or worse? or do you simply feel so guilty or afraid that you try to hide them away from others, always put on the mask and seem happy go lucky?

The nice thing about starting to overcome an invalidating past is that you discover there are people out there who want to listen, who value your emotions and are willing and able to be with them (even anger), and most importantly - the fact that this listening actually changes and soothes those emotions. You will feel calmer, more accepted and more 'real' because you will no longer be trying to live up to some fantasy image of what others think you 'should' be - you will be fully you. Until you can be you, you will never feel like others really accept you - but if you have spent much of your life this way you may be unsure as to who 'you' really is. Can be difficult ...

Ross

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Dear Ross, as a guy you can have children well into your 50's, 32 is still young. My dad have me and my sisters in his 50's. for a woman on the other hand its very different. Please cheer up.

I am 29 and I want kids badly too so I have the same problem as you except my biological clock is ticking.

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Dear Ross, as a guy you can have children well into your 50's, 32 is still young. My dad have me and my sisters in his 50's. for a woman on the other hand its very different. Please cheer up.

I am 29 and I want kids badly too so I have the same problem as you except my biological clock is ticking.

Helloooo

Really hope you get to have some chiddles too

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Hi Arrakis

If they have always been that way, there will be a corresponding part in you too. I dunno if all of this will be relevant, but thought I would type anyway :) Invalidation leads to such deep emotional problems because it is a rejection of the person you are (have a look at that first article where they explain the difference between validation and approval), and leads to feeling that emotions are dangerous, bad, wrong - well actually that YOU are dangerous, bad, wrong, maybe even evil. It shapes your attitude to your own feelings, and that attitude amplifies those feelings. Its part of the reason BPD emotions are so intense.

You may also have a deep inner sense that no one really understands you, and possibly find that if someone else invalidates you, you may either feel very angry, or just sort of feel hopeless and give into it. You may have the very MH thing of being attracted to people who actually treat you this way, and surprise yourself to find out that in your life there are a number of maybe very critical, but also invalidating or emotionally depriving people. People who essentially make those old feelings pop up for you.

Exploring those feelings of invalidation, trying to notice the expectations eg when you feel sad, or angry, or any intense feling - how do you expect others to respond to you? What do you expect them to do with or to you or your feelings? Do you expect them to make you feel better, or worse? or do you simply feel so guilty or afraid that you try to hide them away from others, always put on the mask and seem happy go lucky?

The nice thing about starting to overcome an invalidating past is that you discover there are people out there who want to listen, who value your emotions and are willing and able to be with them (even anger), and most importantly - the fact that this listening actually changes and soothes those emotions. You will feel calmer, more accepted and more 'real' because you will no longer be trying to live up to some fantasy image of what others think you 'should' be - you will be fully you. Until you can be you, you will never feel like others really accept you - but if you have spent much of your life this way you may be unsure as to who 'you' really is. Can be difficult ...

Ross

Oh wow, that post really does explain so much. I never really thought about how the dismissive behaviour of my parents was affecting me, but everything you said about invalidation and the more I read about it, it seems like a LOT of my issues have stemmed simply from their attitude towards me than a lot of the events on my past, which I blamed entirely. I see now that trying to 'get over' what happened to me is only half the cure, I need to learn to first of all ignore the invalidating they still do, then work on 'fixing' the marks their invalidation has left me with.

I guess I can tie it in with my mindfulness exercises, if I feel useless or that my feelings are 'wrong', I need to be aware of the negativity and try to ease it out, and ask myself all those questions... this is going to take a lot of pondering. Thank you so much, Ross. :)

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