The Most Important Question Of All: Can You Have A Successful Relation With Someone With Bpd

[manja.]

Ok, that is very very interesting to get a response that she may not have bpd. i thought every single action i listed about was a clear symptom of bpd.

Manja, Lily, coudl you please list for me the top 5 symptoms of bpd?

These are the 9 criteria and I 'think' that 5 have to be present over a long period of time.

• Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
  
• A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
  
• Identity disturbance, such as a significant and persistent unstable self-image or sense of self
  
• Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving,binge eating)
  
• Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
  
• Emotional instability due to significant reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, oranxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
  
• Chronic feelings of emptiness
  
• Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
  
• Transient, stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms
  

These are taken from http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/symptoms-of-borderline-personality-disorder/

This would be more so for your wife, rather than for you, but I think this video explains really well what it feels like to have BPD.

[mark999]

She has 6 of these symptoms for as long as I have known her

ps: These symptoms are very similar to all the actions I listed above

[manja.]

ps: These symptoms are very similar to all the actions I listed above

Firstly, I want you to know that I'm not trying to get into an argument with you - and if it comes across that way, I apologise.

I really, really don't see those as similar at all...

I don't know if you want to provide an explanation, but I know we are probably going way off topic here, so I don't know how beneficial to you it would be..

[bibiddi]

Mark, this is probably why it takes a psychiatrist to diagnose someone.

Some of us have direct experience of the disorder, so may give a bit of insight, but you are directly involved and cant separate things.

Like I asked earlier, how do you feel when you think you two will separate?

[manja.]

Mark, this is probably why it takes a psychiatrist to diagnose someone.

Some of us have direct experience of the disorder, so may give a bit of insight, but you are directly involved and cant separate things.

I agree, and for this reason I think I should try to step back a bit from it, because I am also no expert after all, but I do hope that I was some help to you, Mark, and I do hope that things work out for you both x

[mark999]

First I will copy and past the symptom you put down as someone with bpd - then below it I will copy and past an action my wife does which I wrote earlier:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

6: She has had panic attacks. And tehre were times when I could not leave her side for even a few minutes. (just because she wanted me to be there all the time)

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

1: One moment she thinks I am the best husband alive. Within 30 seconds she tells me to divorce her.

Emotional instability due to significant reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, oranxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

4: She has many lows. And many guilty feelings. Her default setting is to be down.

5: If I am happy and excited - she will have a way to pull me down - and that is very very difficult because since i was a kid i was an unusually happy person.

7: She is very very intelligent - both at school and work she excells, yet she wants to quit her job every day.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

3:....She will get upset with anyone - anywhere - about anything.

1; i walk on eggshells not knowing when she will explode.

9: She will question our relationship over every disagreement. Disagreement is the worst thing for her.

Chronic feelings of emptiness

13: she will tell her cousins what a miserable life she has because of me - yet i may be wrong, but i think i am a devoted husbaand, generally a very good hearted person who tries to see things from the other person's point of view.

[mark999]

Ok, I am signing off for a while, but if anyone has any further input please do give your input. Everything is really appreciated.

Thanks everyone. This was helpful.

[aurorablues]

Hi Mark,

I'm sorry you are having troubles with your relationship.

I'll let you in on a little secret. You could pick 10 relatively "Normal" people in societies eyes. Give them the Mental Health Diagnostic Manual and see these 10 relatively normal people walk away thinking they have 5 or more Mental Health Diagnoses, because they feel they fit some of the descriptions.

At some point in their lives most people get depressed, most people get anxious, most people become angry, defensive, emotional, withdrawn, and unhappy, most people hate their jobs, most people feel guilt and remorse and a list of other endless feelings that can make a person behave in a certain way. Most often there is a simple circumstantial/environmental reason why most people end up feeling the way they do. Because your wife is behvaing the way she is, it doesn't necessarily mean she is mentally ill.

These diagnostic descriptions are very vague and are used as a guideline for Psychiatrists. Only when a Psychiatrist has done a full detailed history and assessment and is satisfied that a person fits certain descriptions to the point where this persons life is moderately to severely affected by said symptoms, will they make an official diagnosis.

Has your Wife seen a Psychiatrist? Not a GP, a Therapist or a Counsellor. An actual Psychiatrist? Because they are the only ones that can determine if your Wife has a diagnosis of BPD or not.

I hope this doesn't offend you, but what if she doesn't have BPD or another Mental Illness? what if she is just unhappy in her marriage, unhappy with her job and unhappy with her life as it is at the present moment.

Aurora :)

[mark999]

Aurora, that is a great point.

I am sure however, that is not the case. Because she becomes unhappy/angry in whichever situation she finds herself. I am terrified to go on vacations because exactly the same thing happens. And it is not just me. When she visits her parents, friends, other family - same thing.

Of course not all of her actions are related to an illness. But I feel some are and these actions are severely affecting her life and have affected our marriage.

I think I am generally a very patient person and very understanding. If someone acted out once in a while I would actually encourage it as it is a healthy part of human behaviour. But this is on a completely different level.

[catsmother21]

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong here but it's almost like you want her to have BPD so that the BPD and your wife can be blamed for your marriage breakdown? I'm not trying to be mean here and sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick. Like Lily said we only have one side of the story here and there must be something that is causing your wife to feel so unhappy and indecisive but being unhappy and indecisive doesn't mean she has BPD.

It also appears that you think if your wife stops blaming you that everything will be ok - have you asked her why she blames you all the time?

[aurorablues]

I agree with Catsmother here. It's like you are focussing all you energies on her having BPD or another Mental health Diagnosis so you have something to blame.

Whilst your focussing all your energies in one direction, you could be missing the real reasons for your marriage breakdown.

I'm also a little concerned that you might be suggesting to your wife that she has BPD or other Mental Health Diagnoses, which if was her, it would definitely get my back up and make me feel unhappy and upset.

Also, you never answered my question on whether she's actually seen a Psychiatrist or not?

The trouble is, as Lily stated. We are only getting one side of the strory. And what you believe to be BPD symptoms, can be anything. We can't diagnose someone on here as we are not qualified Psychiatrists. We can only advise. It's been said before that the way you describe your wife doesn't sound much like BPD. There may be a couple of small traits in there, but any normal person could have a couple of traits or more from personality disorder and still not fit all the requirements to have a diagnosis of one.

The way you decribe your wife, she sounds like someone who is very unhappy with her life at the moment and there could be many reasons for that. Perhaps she feels that she isn't in the place she thought she would be when she invisioned her future, perhaps she thought she would have a better life then she has now, perhaps she actually doesn't love you anymore and she may be depressed because shes in a situation she doesn't want to be in. Perhaps shes finding it hard to articluate all this to you through fear of upsetting you. Or because you won't listen to her properly, or because you believe she is mentally ill. When someone feels trapped in a situation and feels unable to express why they feel trapped, they tend to act out in different ways. Of course i'm only specuating here and i could be completely wrong, but i hope this gives you a different persepective of what may be happening with your Marriage and your Wife.

My best advice to you, would be to scrap all this BPD stuff, get it out of your mind and try and look for more simpler explanations for the way your wife is acting. Sit down and have a converstaion with her in a mature, non judgemental manner, forget about the blame game and perhaps you might get some answers. Some of those answers may not be things you want to hear. There are two people in the relationshsip and it's very possible that your wife isn't all at fault here.

Aurora :)

[mark999]

Thanks everyone.

Yes, she has a therapist for talking and a psychiatrist who prescribes her medicine.

So let's do this to move our discussion forward. Let us hypothetically say she does have BPD. Yes, she most likely doesn/t But let us say someone did. And they were not acknowledging their actions caused all the problems in a marriage. What sould a spouse do in this situation?

[Lily-Bee]

A hypothetical discussion about this in my opnion is completely useless. I have a stumach ache right now,I could think its cancer and plan everything around it.Thats a bit silly.

Lily

[manja.]

And they were not acknowledging their actions caused all the problems in a marriage.

Even if she had BPD I very much doubt that one person would cause ALL the problems in any couple's marriage.

I've never held down a long-term relationship, but even still would be pretty sure that a relationship is a two-way partnership, and that each person contributes to it equally, so I very much doubt that it would be possible for one person to cause all of the problems, and feel that this is very unfair on her.

[bibiddi]

Mark, you make me laugh.

She's convinced its all your fault, you are convinced its all her fault, neither of you are willing to have a sensible adult conversation with each other.

[guntarded]

Marc, do you both have a joint GP? It could be possible that you could just jot down points, events, times when symptoms occur from your wife. I know you are trying to help your wife, that can be seen throughout your posts and you want to help. Some people reading this topic can relate to your wife, and may take a very critical attitude to you as a result.

Personally I would take this diary of events, and talk to her GP about it and ask for this to be shown to the psychiatrist, whoever is treating her mental illness. She will hit the roof with this, but you just have to read posts on here where people with BPD are abusive to their partners, and they fully regret what they do and how they treat their partners, but the change must come from your wife. You cannot force her to change.

For me I was able to recover from bpd, due to two things (this is from my bpd psychiatrist), emotional maturity (age/experience), and self-awareness/self responsibility - if she cannot take responsibility for her actions then she is not mature enough emotionally for this sort of relationship, as it will always be like this. You can kick start it, by going to her MH doctor and asking for review, but let a professional diagnose her, not you.

You have a rough road ahead of you, whatever decision you make, and I don't envy your position. You will be a bastard for going behind her back to help her, and you will be a bastard for leaving her - you must decide if your relationship is worth it. But one thing is for certain, your wife will and does regret her behaviour - all the posters on here that have shown bpd traits and symptoms always react later that they regret. I too have regret from relationships that I have destroyed due to my immature behaviour, but once I accepted responsibility for it myself and wanted to change, only then can recovery begin.

[mark999]

Ok, I think one or two of you are taking this personally. BPD are amazing people. Every human being is.

All I am saying is if someone had BPD and was not aknowledging that their actions caused problems. Obviously damaging actions like telling your spouse to divorce after every disagreement or blaming your depression on your spouse etc - in this case how do you show that person the reality.

Forget my case. If the above were the case how would you do it?

[mark999]

Guntarded, thank you so much. That is exactly the type of answer I was searching for. I appreciaet it very much.

Yes, it is a very difficult position. I am a very mathematical/logical person and have been able to solve everything in my life except this. But I am determined to find the right path and not give up. After all even in chaos there is logic!

[guntarded]

Mark that you for your reply, but there's an important point that you have missed from me, and others who have posted on here.

You can do everything in your power to try and help but unless your wife wants help, wants to face up to the responsibilities of her actions, and wants to change, nothing that you, me, people on here, even a BPD specialist can help her - if she indeed has bpd; it is up to her to choose this path, you cannot force her to change.

[aurorablues]

Obviously damaging actions like telling your spouse to divorce after every disagreement or blaming your depression on your spouse etc - in this case how do you show that person the reality.

From a different perspective.

What if she does want a Divorce? And what if she does feel that being married has lead to her depression?

She could be depressed because she doesn't want to be married anymore. And she could be trying to articulate that to you buy saying she wants a divorce every time you have a disagreement.

I don't mean to offend, just looking at the situation from a different angle.

I think you both need to sit down and have a proper conversation about all this.

Aurora :)

[mark999]

Guntarded, but one poster said think of it like she has a disease. If she does, i can not leave it up to her. I need to be there to do something, no?

Auroroa, if you read my previous posts you'll see that's clearly not the case.

Two days after she says divorce she says I am the best husband in the world. There is no way she could ever imagine life without me. After our separation she said she could never ever imagine being without me.

Again, if it is a case of someone being unhappy with you or disagreeing with you and parting ways - that is something I see every day. You disagree, you move on. This is something completely different.

And to repeat again: She does this with every single person - her family, colleagues, friends - not just me. And she has been doing this since before we got married.

[mark999]

Again to stress: If it were a case of her not liking me - I would walk away. But I believe without a shadow of a doubt that she is suffering from something she does not understand or does not own up to. I also do not understand it fully but from all my research bpd is the only condition which fits her actions. I have never in my entire life encountered these kinds of actions even though I have been to many different schools and have grown up in several different countries.

But that is what makes it so difficult. Just like you guys have responded to my posts, I respond like that. One day I am sure she wants to not be with me and just want a divorce, the next I am sure she wants to be with me forever. So if you guys with BPD are confused by these actions - just imagine what I am going through!

[aurorablues]

Ok, fair enough.

I still think you both need to sit down and have a mature, non-judgmental conversation where you are not blaming eachother for the breakdown of the relationship.

You said she see's a Psychiatrist for medication? What Diagnosis has her Psychiatrist given her?

Also, will she allow you to sit in on her next appointments with her Psychiatrist and Therapist?

Aurora

Edit: Also, how long has she been seeing the Psychiatrist?

[bibiddi]

Mark, couple of things. You do seem to pick and choose as to what you take from this thread. Only the bits that agree with your thoughts seem to be correct.

You are separated.

I do understand she is your first love, and you dont want to lose her. But to have a healthy relationship, both of you have to respect each other.

And it doesnt come across as if either of you do.

I know you aren't listening and you are sticking with your BPD theory, because if she doesnt have that, then it may mean she actually does think you are the 'bad' person in the relationship, and it cant be saved.

[aurorablues]

I didn't actually see your other thread.

So you are actually seperated? How long have you been seperated for?

Aurora :)