Empathy And Identifying With Outsiders

[roxy222]

This is all bullshit. If you open a thread about bloody paedophiles on a mental health website you are luck you only got opinons from a lot of people and that you didn't get any really abusive posts. Angelsavo is no more initimidating than a little kitten. Get a life please and stop talking about feeling sorry for paedophiles. It's sick.

I am offended by this. Nobody is lucky to avoid abuse; we should not be abusing each other on here. The thread was about empathy and not paedophiles.

Part of 'getting a life' for me is working through the bad bits in my head. Fortunately now I have a good therapist to do this with and now realise that may be a more appropriate place to do it than this forum for some issues.

This topic had several trigger warnings on it, and it was your choice to read it.

well said meme, no one has to read this and no one has the right to tel others there opinions and disscusions are bullshit, thats abusive and has no place ona support forum. if people feel there is something wrong about disscussing this then say that without being abuisive towards others please

[roxy222]

This is all bullshit. If you open a thread about bloody paedophiles on a mental health website you are luck you only got opinons from a lot of people and that you didn't get any really abusive posts. Angelsavo is no more initimidating than a little kitten. Get a life please and stop talking about feeling sorry for paedophiles. It's sick.

I happen to agree here,I myself feel real bitter and angrey towards paedophiles,How can anyone feel sorry for them?They have a choice when they sexualy abuse children,If one of them touched my children i would be done for murder.The people who defend them are just as bad as them in my opinion.

what you say here is actualy very articualte without being abusive, which is much more appropriate than some other abusive posts. for the record not one person has defended peadophiles on this thread

[roxy222]

I think you can still report them, police may not be able to do anything immediately but I think they would keep an eye on them. Also would ensure they went to therapy. I'd do my best to ensure they never got a job with children either.

they wouldnt make them go to therapy, the police dont have any power to do anything unless a crime is being commited or someone is breaking parol etc, if someone suspects a child is being abused then they can and should report to social services, this can be done confidentially and social services are legally obligated to investigate all reports, also social services only need a reasonable suscpcion to remove a child to protect them, not proof beyond a doubt like counts or even reasonable evidence to prosecute like the police.

[Roses]

If you all want me to be articulate and un-offensive then I can play that game too.

Yes, I understnad that if they have not 'yet' offended they should be offered counselling or whatever but does anyone know the stats on those who get the urge and can be successfully 'saved' from themselves? Roxy, I bet you do! That is if you can read this cos I know you have blocked me but that is cool.

My original question about the moors murders asked if it were your child - this is true. However, this is quite a commonly asked question in life I find and not nearly as offensive as asking a Mother how she would re-act if her children professed to being paedophiles. Especially considering that she was sexually abused by her brother.

I have no further wish to discuss it though and will retire from this thread. I find it to be full of contradictions and double standards. You would be appalled if it were your child on tape but have empathy with the abuser if it was someone elses child? I don't understand and I don't want to.

[Ruth24]

If someone came to me and said "I don't know what to do, I am a paedophile, I have never done anything but I want help because I am scared I am going to act on it and I hate myself for it" then yes I would empathise with them.

meme, you are full of contradictions. In more recent posts you say you are unable to empathise and now you are saying you can empathise with the lowest of the low in society?

In the case you state above, you are implying that you are able to empathise with somebody who CAN control their behaviour and are worried that they won't. This in itself concerns me because it also implies that you feel that you are unable to control some of your behaviour, and the scenario above is dangerous behaviour towards others. It maybe harder with MH issues but we CANNOT use MH illness as an excuse to be out of control. We are all able to take control, even though it is harder for us than others.

This is a mental health forum, where a lot of people have been abused at the hands of a paedophile, so i feel that it was very irresponsible of you. As I have said, it is only sociopaths that don't control their behaviour because they feel they are doing nothing wrong, and don;t care , no remorse, no guilt.

I agree with a lot of roses has said and feel you have been very inconsiderate towards people on this forum

You tend to write a lot of contraversial posts. PLEASE think before you write. some things, i believe, you hould keep between yourself and your therapist.

At the moment i find your behaviour scary and irresponsible. The fact that you can empathise with a paedophile (who has yet commited no crime), intimaidates me, and I will no longer be adding to this thread

[Missfit]

If someone came to me and said "I don't know what to do, I am a paedophile, I have never done anything but I want help because I am scared I am going to act on it and I hate myself for it" then yes I would empathise with them.

meme, you are full of contradictions. In more recent posts you say you are unable to empathise and now you are saying you can empathise with the lowest of the low in society?

In the case you state above, you are implying that you are able to empathise with somebody who CAN control their behaviour and are worried that they won't. This in itself concerns me because it also implies that you feel that you are unable to control some of your behaviour, and the scenario above is dangerous behaviour towards others. It maybe harder with MH issues but we CANNOT use MH illness as an excuse to be out of control. We are all able to take control, even though it is harder for us than others.

This is a mental health forum, where a lot of people have been abused at the hands of a paedophile, so i feel that it was very irresponsible of you. As I have said, it is only sociopaths that don't control their behaviour because they feel they are doing nothing wrong, and don;t care , no remorse, no guilt.

I agree with a lot of roses has said and feel you have been very inconsiderate towards people on this forum

You tend to write a lot of contraversial posts. PLEASE think before you write. some things, i believe, you hould keep between yourself and your therapist.

At the moment i find your behaviour scary and irresponsible. The fact that you can empathise with a paedophile (who has yet commited no crime), intimaidates me, and I will no longer be adding to this thread

Brilliant response & I totally agree with everything you post here Ruth

[roxy222]

If someone came to me and said "I don't know what to do, I am a paedophile, I have never done anything but I want help because I am scared I am going to act on it and I hate myself for it" then yes I would empathise with them.

meme, you are full of contradictions. In more recent posts you say you are unable to empathise and now you are saying you can empathise with the lowest of the low in society?

In the case you state above, you are implying that you are able to empathise with somebody who CAN control their behaviour and are worried that they won't. This in itself concerns me because it also implies that you feel that you are unable to control some of your behaviour, and the scenario above is dangerous behaviour towards others. It maybe harder with MH issues but we CANNOT use MH illness as an excuse to be out of control. We are all able to take control, even though it is harder for us than others.

This is a mental health forum, where a lot of people have been abused at the hands of a paedophile, so i feel that it was very irresponsible of you. As I have said, it is only sociopaths that don't control their behaviour because they feel they are doing nothing wrong, and don;t care , no remorse, no guilt.

I agree with a lot of roses has said and feel you have been very inconsiderate towards people on this forum

You tend to write a lot of contraversial posts. PLEASE think before you write. some things, i believe, you hould keep between yourself and your therapist.

At the moment i find your behaviour scary and irresponsible. The fact that you can empathise with a paedophile (who has yet commited no crime), intimaidates me, and I will no longer be adding to this thread

sociopaths do control their behvaiour, they are mnasters at controling their behaviour an imitating normal emotional responses, that is why they are so hard to spot. you're right that they dont think they are wrong, or believe they are above right and wrong, and feel no remorse, but you are totally wrong that they have no control, they have far greater control than the vast majority, part of the reason they are so dangerous

[Roses]

"A sociopath is a person who has antisocial personality disorder. The term sociopath is no longer used to describe this disorder. The sociopath is now described as someone with antisocial personality disorder.

The main characteristic of a sociopath is a disregard for the rights of others. Sociopaths are also unable to conform to what society defines as a normal personality. Antisocial tendencies are a big part of the sociopath’s personality. This pattern usually comes into evidence around the age of 15. If it is not treated, it can develop into adulthood.

Visible symptoms include physical aggression and the inability to hold down a steady job. The sociopath also finds it hard to sustain relationships and shows a lack of regret in his or her actions. A major personality behavior trait is the violation of the rights of others. This can appear as a disregard for the physical or sexual wellbeing of another".

[Ocean Wolf]

anybody that agrees or can understand them should be put down!

Yes, this is a death threat. Saying that people who can understand on a thread where some people have said they understand suggests that it's aim includes people on this thread.

3rules of living my life..............

1- never hit a woman or kids

2- never take drugs

3- never take from others

any other "rules" are to be broken

Never take from others... unless it's turning a place that was once safe into a place where we're no longer sure who wants us dead. And (if one reads the rest of that post) the lives of people you don't like. You have no remorse saying this and give the impression you'd have no remorse doing it. Go ahead. Try killing people, try putting people down like the animals they are. That would make you a serial killer.

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

Facts:

1. Humans are biologically animals, but putting them down is considered illegal.

2. Biologically, "they" are humans. Humans are sometimes called "people."

3. Forensic psychiatrists, who spend their lives studying this subject, think that serial killers and peadophiles are mentally ill.

4. Peadophilia is listed as a paraphilia (sexual disorder)

5. Legally insane has a different definition from clinically insane. Clinically insane is still insane.

6. I understand serial killers and have my own urges. However, I haven't acted on them. Of the two of us, only one has promoted killing people on this site. That was you.

7. Yep, those are FACTS. Not opinions, facts.

I do not have any urges towards children. However, having spoken to a friend of mine who happens to be a psychology student (still a student, but still studies more psychology than the average amateur), I have a different perspective than I once had on them. I still think if they act on it, they should be punished. But I wish they could have some help and encouragement to prevent acting on it.

Personally, I think if people really hated what some people do this much, they would try to solve the problem (in a legal manner, not a murderous manner since that is hypocritical). Prevention prevents the problem.

[SwissRoll]

what you say here is actualy very articualte without being abusive, which is much more appropriate than some other abusive posts. for the record not one person has defended peadophiles on this thread

roxy i don't think that i was being abusive i was just giving my opinion.I am very bitter towards people who defend peadophiles.

[roxy222]

anybody that agrees or can understand them should be put down!

Yes, this is a death threat. Saying that people who can understand on a thread where some people have said they understand suggests that it's aim includes people on this thread.

3rules of living my life..............

1- never hit a woman or kids

2- never take drugs

3- never take from others

any other "rules" are to be broken

Never take from others... unless it's turning a place that was once safe into a place where we're no longer sure who wants us dead. And (if one reads the rest of that post) the lives of people you don't like. You have no remorse saying this and give the impression you'd have no remorse doing it. Go ahead. Try killing people, try putting people down like the animals they are. That would make you a serial killer.

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

Facts:

1. Humans are biologically animals, but putting them down is considered illegal.

2. Biologically, "they" are humans. Humans are sometimes called "people."

3. Forensic psychiatrists, who spend their lives studying this subject, think that serial killers and peadophiles are mentally ill.

4. Peadophilia is listed as a paraphilia (sexual disorder)

5. Legally insane has a different definition from clinically insane. Clinically insane is still insane.

6. I understand serial killers and have my own urges. However, I haven't acted on them. Of the two of us, only one has promoted killing people on this site. That was you.

7. Yep, those are FACTS. Not opinions, facts.

I do not have any urges towards children. However, having spoken to a friend of mine who happens to be a psychology student (still a student, but still studies more psychology than the average amateur), I have a different perspective than I once had on them. I still think if they act on it, they should be punished. But I wish they could have some help and encouragement to prevent acting on it.

Personally, I think if people really hated what some people do this much, they would try to solve the problem (in a legal manner, not a murderous manner since that is hypocritical). Prevention prevents the problem.

people dont like to solve the problem though, and i mean people in general not anyone here before i abusive posts aimed at me. in general people push these issues to the back of their mind and hide from them, they much prefer to think of monsters who are lurking down the street to kidnap kids than the repected dr or father or mother. there is alot of child abuse, not peadophilla, that is unintentional, and in facing this issue alot of people would feel guilt, but rather than deal with that very difficult emotion they choose to stick their heads in the sand regardless of the continuation of abuse. this blindness to all abuse, and especially to the effect it has on the child victims, is a big part of what contributes to the ease peadophiles have access to children, and to how there is no one stepping in to help child victims before they harm others (althouhg im not suggesting all victims become abusers, only 1 in 8 do, however all abusers were once victims)

what someone suggested about how this was innappropriate topic of meme to post on this type of forum, well it is exactly that type of attitude that continues this blindness. i apprciate this is not an easy topic for this forum (no any for that matter) but there are adaquate trigger warnings and well when people hide from the difficult discussions that is why there is not enough awareness of the truth about abuse. this lack of awareness is why so few children can come forward, why so few adults notice and step in, why there is not help for victims, especially victims who have grown up with s/a as the norm within thier family. i used to work with teenage sex offenders. although they understood that abusing other children was wrong, that it was against the law, that they would be punished for it, that their victims would be left suffering because of it (i say understand in the techniqual sence, not emotional understand or empathise), they did not really get this at a deep down level because their entire version of normal had been that within their family adults abused children, and children abused children, and that was their entire lifes exprience of how people treated each other. there were some children i genuinely felt would not go on to continue this as adults, who would work with the help given and not replay the oatterns they had learnt. there were some who clearly would continue to target children and possibley adults in this way. there were some where there were other complications, like learning disabilities, and iqs in the retarded range (which means they are legaly not prosecuted). it was not easy working with these children at all. and well basicly most would choose write them off entirely and not deal with the actual realities of this problem. as someone who has just done child protection training again this week for like the one bloody hundreth time, and yet again found everyone on the training course, supposed professionals, to be beyond ignorant, i am contineously utterly horrified at how happy people seem to be to contribute to societies blindness rather than face issues they find difficult and disturbing and triggering, and at the end of the day it is so easy to hide, but when people do so they contribute to the problem, not solve it. we are all adults here, even the most vulnerable here is no where near as vulnerable as a child is, and by not facing this issue it is the children who suffer. im sorry if that offends people, or upsets them, but i am not going to bite my tongue over such an serious issue because i refuse to be one of those people who stick there heads in the sand. child abuse, and how to deal with it, and save further victims, is the most impornat topic, anything else, like hurt feelings, pales in comparision to all the children who are suffering right now

[roxy222]

what you say here is actualy very articualte without being abusive, which is much more appropriate than some other abusive posts. for the record not one person has defended peadophiles on this thread

roxy i don't think that i was being abusive i was just giving my opinion.I am very bitter towards people who defend peadophiles.

thats what i was saying, you are stating a very strong opinion without being abusive, unlike previous posts where other people were being abusive to meme, which is unacceptable, you have the same opinion as them but state it without the attack which is commendable. however, again, there is no one defending peadophiles

[Tray]

can we all stop getting at each other and be supportive as we should be

[Tray]

i deleted my post as i dont want to cause more rows and upset people esp a dear friend who has been upset by this post

please lets leave it now

[SwissRoll]

thats what i was saying, you are stating a very strong opinion without being abusive, unlike previous posts where other people were being abusive to meme, which is unacceptable, you have the same opinion as them but state it without the attack which is commendable. however, again, there is no one defending peadophiles

Sorry i should of made myself clear here,where did i mention anyone on this thread supporting peadophiles?I just happened to agree with what Roses said,My mum supports my dad he is a peado,he chose him over her own family,that is what i was trying to point out,i should of mentioned that and i am sorry.

[Sammy]

So what you are saying is that it would be ok to have death penalty (you kill the person responsible) if they hurt your child, but not for anyone else to do the same?

I don't believe EVERY abuser has once been a victim either, though a better statement could be that the majority have been a victim.

[Roses]

This is from meme's original post on this thread:

"Another example is paedophiles; I sometimes feel sorry for them. I must say that I am not, and have never been a paedophile, and I find the idea of what they do unpleasant, as well as morally wrong, and I do not condone it. However, I sometimes feel sorry for them. They do not ask to be paedophiles, and I am sure that they cannot help having the urges. I am sure that some of them struggle against those urges every day and have very little support, or friendship. When they abuse children they make a choice, sure, but they are confronted with that choice every day. I am a person of very little self-discipline, if I had the same urges as a paedophile, would I be able to resist them? Possibly not.

I had to think why I have empathy with these sorts of people and I think it is because I can identify with them, in the sense that I have always felt like an outsider whom nodody else really understands. I feel like it is me against the world.

I have little empathy for babies, because babies do not offer me anything. And, I can't identify with them".

Forget how the conversation has gone and look at the facts. He sympathises with paedos and not babies. This is clearly screwed up and worrying and triggering. Yes, he put trigger signs up and that is fine but it doesn't change the fact that is has outraged many people on here.

Ocean - Angel was not threatening anyone. You got it way out of proportion. Plus he is in a different country to you do you really think he's gonna waste his money coming over there to have a go at you?

Roxy - you obviously have a depth or experience and knowledge. Yes prevention is better than cure. But meme is talking about his feelings as a grown man with a family not as a child/teenager. Children aren't held accountable in the same way as an adult. And I don't think that 100% of abusers were abused as children. I've not seen that stastic before. Can you give me a link to those stastics please.

Tray - your future plans are commendable.

[Tray]

ah rose u read that before i deleted it

i think what meme is trying to say is that babies do not have a sense of right yet, of pain, of understanding, of knowldege and so he cant relate to them, where as those type of people are ostresized like himself from society...

no one hates babies, as they have yet to build up their personality... people hate peodophilis, rapists, murderers, robbers etc... and a lot hate people that they dont understand, like people with MH problems... i think thats the link he was making

[roxy222]

So what you are saying is that it would be ok to have death penalty (you kill the person responsible) if they hurt your child, but not for anyone else to do the same?

I don't believe EVERY abuser has once been a victim either, though a better statement could be that the majority have been a victim.

well theres alot of eveidence that suggests they vast majority were, and alot of experts that voice that all abusers were a vicim of one kind at one time or other (ray wire, alice miller, oliver james and bruce perry of the top of my head). just in basic terms of developement though, a child who grows up with safety and respect and has their feelings valued and their needs met would develope healthily, develope secure conections to others and develope empathy and not need to ever abuse another, so obviously if people are abusers then this process has gone horribley wrong. there are studies that have prooved that babies are all born innocent, i cant remember them but do know of them, so obviously any distortion of this happens during developement, and the most significant experience for any persons develoepemnt is whether or not their parents care and value them and protect them, espcially within the first few yrs of life. even if the abuse at this time is unintention it is still abuse, legally so also

i dont recognise the first line of this post so have no idea what you're getting at there

[Sammy]

Me and my brother were back and forwards from my mum to my dad for years, causing an unsettled environment - my psychologists believe that this is what caused him to abuse me - his need to regain some control in his life. Divorce and moving from one parent to another is not classed as a form of abuse. I am sure there are many other situations that mean the secure environment a child needs is not met that are not necessarily abuse but could cause enough lack of bonding, attatchment, security to cause someone to become an abuser.

[Sammy]

first line of my post is regarding a post that was edited and a question towards them, so prob no longer relevant.

[roxy222]

first line of my post is regarding a post that was edited and a question towards them, so prob no longer relevant.

confusion clarified, cheers

[roxy222]

Me and my brother were back and forwards from my mum to my dad for years, causing an unsettled environment - my psychologists believe that this is what caused him to abuse me - his need to regain some control in his life. Divorce and moving from one parent to another is not classed as a form of abuse. I am sure there are many other situations that mean the secure environment a child needs is not met that are not necessarily abuse but could cause enough lack of bonding, attatchment, security to cause someone to become an abuser.

actually the legal line on child abuse (that i cant remember anywhere near wording) basicly says that any act intentional or otherwise that causes damage or harm to the childs integrity is abuse. lots of children go through truamatic situations early on, but some of them have parents who do everything in their power to support them and so the damage is not done, and some have parents who are much more negligent, even if unintentionally, or even if with the best of intentions. a child does not have the brain capacity to understand the consequences of their actions, that part of the brain does not begin to develope until mid teens and is not fully developed until early twenties, when the brain is fully developed everywhere, your parents were responsible for bringing your brother up to not abuse. it is a parents responsibility to meet a childs needs, otherwise why choose to have them, to not do so, even if just by omision is abusive and is against the law. not meeting a childs attachment needs, not meeting a childs developemental needs, nutritional needs, emotional needs, needs for protection and care and love, humilating them, invalidating them, using behavior modification or negative conditioning to control them, isolating them, exposing them to violence (as in parents screaming infront of them), forcing ideas onto them, manipulating them, confusing them, not listening to them, not responding to them, isolating them, leaving them without supervision, or with inadaquate care givers, not assessing the risks surrounding them, neglecting educational needs, breaking down the childs self confidence and or sence of identity, neglacting medical needs or over medicating, shouting at a child, age innapropriate expectations, many of these things are seen as normal parenting, which is disgusting, but are all very abusive and can cause serious damage to a childs development, and all when chronic can be prosecuatble under the child protection laws.

[Data]

This is clearly screwed up and worrying and triggering.

Well I am as I am, a troubled and emotionally conflicted person who is constantly trying to improve myself. And I won't do that by looking at myself through a rose-tinted mirror.

Yes, he put trigger signs up and that is fine but it doesn't change the fact that is has outraged many people on here.

Well I suggest they just don't read my posts in future.

[roxy222]

heres the legal def stuff

all forms of child abuse involve the elements of a power imbalance, explotation and the absence of true consent, whether they concern acts of commission (deliberate) or acts of omission