For All Of You Male Bpd's

[BobbyMac]

Statistically 1 out of every 33 women have BPD and 1 out of every 100 men have BPD. I honestly numbers are just being thrown out there, mainly because psychologist dont really know as much as they would like to know about this "disease".

So I am finding ways of my own to cope and deal with this. Its so weird for my friends, mainly because they know I have it, but they know nothing at all about BPD. Nothing. They assume that it is just some form of depression, like many people do assume.

I find it harder and harder to talk about the more I learn. I have bought 3 books about it, yet I have never gotten past page 10 in either books, though I do plan to, I just find it hard to want to leanr the more I learn about it.

Apparently its a serious thing, and all of these pages are telling me that I will have it for life, and I dont know that I want to deal with that. I would love to deal, once I figure out how. So, what is it that you do.

Why were you diagnosed with BPD. I honestly would love to know and would love to talk about it. So, send a post or a private message, or you can mail me on myspace (myspace.com/bob_ohh)

Either way, I look forward to talking to someone that is try to deal. They only time I really "try" to deal with it is when I drink. When I am sober, I think about it, but I avoid dealing with it. Mainly because I dont know what to do.

Everyone has their story, so I would like to know yours. Please, feel free to write me and let me know. Thank you! Best wished with your journey!

Another thing I am trying to tie together is: For you male BPD's, what was your relationship like with your father, or mother. Mainly father if you are male. Im not doing a science project or anything, trust me, been out of school for a while now, and if this were a science project... I would be apart of the project.

[drew]

well i am female and have a few thoughts about this

my first thought is that males just dont go to the doctor and suffer in silence

my second though was that the female are easier to abuse maybe not pc am i about to get linched

but women are the weakest sex so pysicail , emootional abuse could effect them more

i dont know not an expert just expressing my own thoughts

[Lily-Bee]

Actually Drew has a point there. People who research these kind of things believe that there are more men with this then it seems because they do not get diagnosed as much, are less likely to see a doc about their issue's or because of impulsive behaviour end up in prison and such and the diagnoses gets missed.

Hope some males will answer your post and share experiences.

Lilly

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo BobbyMac

I really liked reading your post - I dont know if anyone told you this, but you write extremely honestly. I think that is a good sign for the future!

I am a duderline blokie male PD person. I dont actually have a clear dx because I sit across so many diagnostic boundaries, and occasionally pay visits to paranoid, schizotypal and borderline country. For me, diagnosis did not come until I realised that I was not going to get anywhere hiding all my symptoms from doctors (which would square with drews thing). They knew about depression and anxiety, but because I had so many 'masks' - you know, all those ways you make a false front to deal with suffering - I never seemed that ill. When I presented my psych with the full symptom list she kinna went "wow".

In research of BPD, the observation has frequently been made that sexual and physical abuse do not have to be present for BPD to develop. The key thread seems to be INVALIDATION - that is, being made to feel that your emotions are wrong, that you are not feeling what you actually are feeling or being made to feel bad, evil or annoying for having emotions. What tends to happen is that the parents view child needs as unimportant or irrelevant, so when the child feels angry or sad for example, they are told they are making a fuss, ignored or made to feel bad, for feeling bad!

I think with men, we are more brought up to bury emotion. Males in fact are raised by society to feel that their emotions are wrong - that even the worst challenges should be faced like Han Solo, with a laugh and a wink and then get the girl, even if your leg is being chewed off by a womp rat (or whatever). Its in movies, its in films. We are told "be a man". The thing is, for the borderline male who has already been invalidated by his family, this becomes a tightly reinforcing message. It rings true for us, and where we should be questioning our invalidation and realising we have a right to our emotions, instead it just feel 'right'. No one ever tells us its ok to feel.

I think with men, anger is the most commonly expressed emotion. Its ok for men to have fights, get drunk etc - this is the societally acceptable face of male emotion, or at least what is 'expected', par for the course. The thing is, many men DO have an emotional outlet, at least one person in their life they can be truthful about their emotions with. But for most, this is covered up, and kept private. But for the borderline male, there tends to be no private source. Because anger tends to be a shameful thing also, anger becomes compartmentalise4d. It comes out in huge, unpredicatble bursts of anger attacks.

Because this behaviour is objectionable, more men get diagnosed with Antisocial personality or narcissistic personality - but this is as much to do with the way the diagnosing psych feels about gender steroetypes as it is to do with genuinely what dx someone fits in. There is another argument that suggests the dx's need total revision and are irrelevant, but I think the main reason there are more males with BPD as a dx is because of gender stereotyping. Its worth seeing that 3 in 4 BPD sufferers are female, and 3 in 4 Narc sufferers are male. I think its just a case of perception on the part of the psych, driven by which behaviours the patient is forced to show by vrtue of the culture they are immersed in.

The books you have read are not entirely accurate. You can get over BPD and there are now a number of very good therapies out there that can make huge changes. DBT, Schema Therapy, Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy and Transference Focused Therapy are all branches of psychology shown to help BPD sufferers.

You are doing the right thing in trying to understand yourself and your illness. If you do not actually have a BPD dx yet, then do not limit yourself to researcching only that. Look at other personality disorders too, even if their names put you off. In some ways it feels better to have Borderline Personality Disorder than Paranoid Personality Disorder. The second one doesnt sound very nice, and so for some folks who "e-diganose" or decide that they have a particular illness from reading the internet, they can end up "choosing" BPD when in fact they may have huge overlap into other dx's. It is more common to find people with overlap than to find 'pure' diagnostic types.

My relationship with Dad was distant and occasionally violent. I never felt I knew who he was, or that he had the drive to understand who I was. I felt more of a longing for my dad than I did for my mum, who forms IMO the greater part of my problems. She is essentially a narcissist and this has had a much larger effect on me than the sense of abandonment from my dad. My mum was the one responsible for the very deep invalidation - which as I said above is considered to be the key common factor in BPD. Its mum that I still have huge problems with now, at the age of 30, whereas with my dad I feel things are much better now.

[icu_baby]

Here is a feminists view for Wikipedia (who says Wikipedia is not useful for some things!!)

"The concept of BPD has been criticised from a feminist perspective.[121] and the question has been raised of why BPD is diagnosed somewhat more commonly in women than in men. Some think that people with BPD commonly have a history of sexual abuse in childhood,[122] and since girls are much more commonly sexually abused than boys, it is inevitable that BPD would be more common in women. BPD is a stigmatizing diagnosis which evokes negative responses from health care providers (see below), so it is suggested that women who have survived sexual abuse in childhood are in this way re-traumatized by abusive mental health services.[123] Some feminist writers have suggested that it would be better to give these women the diagnosis of a post-traumatic disorder as this would acknowledge their abuse, but others have argued that the use of the PTSD diagnosis merely medicalizes abuse rather than addressing the root causes in society.[124] Clinicians respond differentially to men and women presenting with the same symptoms, for example women presenting with angry, promiscuous behaviour are likely to be diagnosed with BPD, whereas men presenting with identical symptoms will be diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder. Women may be more likely to receive a personality disorder diagnosis if they reject the female role by being hostile, successful, or sexually active; alternatively if a woman presents with psychiatric symptoms but does not conform to a traditional passive sick role, she may be labelled as a 'difficult' patient and given the stigmatizing diagnosis of BPD."

[hummm_mabbe]

Here is a feminists view for Wikipedia (who says Wikipedia is not useful for some things!!)

"The concept of BPD has been criticised from a feminist perspective.[121] and the question has been raised of why BPD is diagnosed somewhat more commonly in women than in men. Some think that people with BPD commonly have a history of sexual abuse in childhood,[122] and since girls are much more commonly sexually abused than boys, it is inevitable that BPD would be more common in women. BPD is a stigmatizing diagnosis which evokes negative responses from health care providers (see below), so it is suggested that women who have survived sexual abuse in childhood are in this way re-traumatized by abusive mental health services.[123] Some feminist writers have suggested that it would be better to give these women the diagnosis of a post-traumatic disorder as this would acknowledge their abuse, but others have argued that the use of the PTSD diagnosis merely medicalizes abuse rather than addressing the root causes in society.[124] Clinicians respond differentially to men and women presenting with the same symptoms, for example women presenting with angry, promiscuous behaviour are likely to be diagnosed with BPD, whereas men presenting with identical symptoms will be diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder. Women may be more likely to receive a personality disorder diagnosis if they reject the female role by being hostile, successful, or sexually active; alternatively if a woman presents with psychiatric symptoms but does not conform to a traditional passive sick role, she may be labelled as a 'difficult' patient and given the stigmatizing diagnosis of BPD."

I would pretty much agree with that, excpet for the fact that not all women with BPD have been sexually abused. Its a high percentage, but what comes up most in research is the invalidation. Certainly, an abusive environment is also an invalidating one - after all, what could be more invalidating than to be sexually abused by a relative, and then told you imagined it, or just to forget it, stop making a fuss, by your mother or father? Having no one to protect you, hear you, soothe you, accept what you feel - that is invalidation. If you are not heard, how can you be helped, protected? If you are not helped and protected, how can you be loved, because how could someone who loved you let you suffer in this way?

So similarly, chronic invalidation of strong emotions, including those brought on by other extremely challening life events, is felt to be the primary cause of the "borderline temperament". Abuse affects symptom range and severity - eg psychosis, but invalidation is what causes the underlying lack of coping ability , soothing capacity and emotional turmoil.

I would agree that many mental health services are in themselves invalidating - the thread just continues.

[AndyL]

I have been told by various clinicians that another reason men don't get diagnosed with BPD as much as women is that, at least here in the States, the aggressive behavior associated with the disorder often lands these men in jail. At that point there is no diagnosis, only retribution.

[roxy222]

statisticly girls have a 1 in 3 chance of being s/a and boys 1 in 5, so not that much difference.

the obvious differnece would be that males and females are wired to react to truama differently. the initial stage of truama response is to cry for help (obviously as it is so socialy acceptable for parents to leave a baby to 'self sooth' not many children will have access to this level because they will already have learned that this doesnt work. next level is the fight or flight, the most common response in males, followed by dissociation ( the equivialant of freezing infront of a predator) which is more commonly observed in girls. historicly these differences are an evolutionary thing, in prehistoric times man was under threat from other humanoids whose form of attack was to kill all the males and take the females and children as there own so for the survial of the specise it made more sence for males to fight and for females to give in, hence the difference in response to truama. as bpd is a form of dissociation this would explain the difference in figures. this is also not just true of bpd, adhd is much more common in boys where as add is more common in girls. bruce perrys articles explain much better.

[drew]

statisticly girls have a 1 in 3 chance of being s/a and boys 1 in 5, so not that much difference.

i think that is a big diffence it is nearly double for girls then boys

[hummm_mabbe]

It seems many are keen to hang BPD solely on sexual abuse. This isnt the case - not all BPD sufferers have been abused. This is dangerous IMO because it means that for those who have it, but have not been abused, we are at risk of constructing some odd form of elitist barrier that says "you are not damaged enough".

You do not have to have been sexually abused to get BPD - sexual abuse heavily influences symptom severity but is not, in and of itself, the source of BPD. Children who are sexually abused but later healed, loved and made to feel it was not their fault, are far less ikely to develop mental health issues at a later date. The thing that derails them is when it is covered up and they are told they did not experience what they said they did, that they shouldnt feel what they do, when they are not healed or soothed, when they are not protected from subsequent assaults. It is the invalidation and subsequent lack of protection that causes the BPD symptoms.

Similarly, ongoing invalidation in non-sexually abused children is highly correlated with developing BPD and so you do not have to have been sexually abused.

For those who have been sexually abused, if you focus ony on that and do not ALSO address the wider issues of invalidation and emotional deprivation, then you are missing a large part of your recovery story. As invalidation is so core to the disorder, leaving out addressing this could even leave you essentially untreated.

Try to heal from the sexual abuse first then tackle the wider issues. It will reduce symptom severity and leave you stronger to tackle the greater undercurrent.

[roxy222]

when I was talking about truama response I meant in light of any truama, not just s/a, invalidation is abuse and v v truamatic for children, so the response would be the same, as it would be to any type of abuse. children are utterly dependant on adults, being ignored or not having their needs met or their feelings taken seriously is in itself very truamatic. I also dont think there is any such thing as 'healing' from s/a, not entirely as it allways leave its mark in some form or other, as does all abuse. I think its perfectly possible to recover from mh that are the result of abuse, but personally I feel suggesting it is possible to heal from the effect of abuse itself massive diminishes the seriousness of how horrific a crime it is in the first place. just how I feel

[hummm_mabbe]

when I was talking about truama response I meant in light of any truama, not just s/a, invalidation is abuse and v v truamatic for children, so the response would be the same, as it would be to any type of abuse. children are utterly dependant on adults, being ignored or not having their needs met or their feelings taken seriously is in itself very truamatic. I also dont think there is any such thing as 'healing' from s/a, not entirely as it allways leave its mark in some form or other, as does all abuse. I think its perfectly possible to recover from mh that are the result of abuse, but personally I feel suggesting it is possible to heal from the effect of abuse itself massive diminishes the seriousness of how horrific a crime it is in the first place. just how I feel

I think anyone who knows me at all on this site would realise that the last thing I intend is to diminish what sexual abuse is and does.

When I say "heal" I dont mean "forget it ever happened and go waltzing through life like nothings different" - I mean getting to the stage where it no longer lies fetid and stinking up your subconsiocus, driving all that pain and keeping you stuck. Will you ever forget it? No - but you can stop it running your life by truly beliving it was not your fault, that you were a victim of a terrible crime, that the lessons it left you with were wrong, that people are not all as evil as your abuser and finding people who can be good for you, and understanding the ways that it has become a part of, and continues to mess up, your life. Undoing that is what I call healing. If you do not feel this is possible, then that is sad because many thousands of people DO get to that stage.

If you feel you cant, then I would encourage you to try as many different approaches to helping you through it as possible, including going over and above behavioural type therapies. You're a fan of Alice Miller, and in terms of my attitude towards sexual and physical abuse, and what level of recovery is possible, you and I are right on the same page as Alice. In my greatest hopes for myself and for anyone, overcoming the mental health problems that result from abuse is what I would want. I am not sure quite how you made the jump from this, to feeling that I was saying sexual abuse is somehow trivial.

As Miller herself says "Can you ever really be rid of it? No, I dont belive you can - but with healing, the pain can become far less frequent and intense. You may lie on your death bed and cry bitter tears for what happened, but you may not have thought about it in years".

Have you been lucky enough to find your own "enlightened witness", as she calls it? I hope that you have, or soon will.

[roxy222]

I didnt say you said it was trivial, or meant to imply that. I just wanted to say my feelings, and I guess I have a different definiton of healing. I just really detest that word because it just doesnt do justice. same as I hate both terms survivor and victim, survivor diminishes how devastating abuse is, and victim implies we still are, neither are enough to explain the complexities in my opinion, and 'healing' I feel is to trivial a term with regards to abuse itself, although I feel fully healed from the mh problems I was left with as a consequence of abuse. I have came accross an enlightened witness, and more importantly can do that for myself also. the point of what I was writing was that all abuse and neglect is truamatic, so the differnce in gender responses to truama explain the difference in male/female diagnostic rates.

[rebeccaborderline]

I didnt say you said it was trivial, or meant to imply that. I just wanted to say my feelings, and I guess I have a different definiton of healing. I just really detest that word because it just doesnt do justice. same as I hate both terms survivor and victim, survivor diminishes how devastating abuse is, and victim implies we still are, neither are enough to explain the complexities in my opinion, and 'healing' I feel is to trivial a term with regards to abuse itself, although I feel fully healed from the mh problems I was left with as a consequence of abuse. I have came accross an enlightened witness, and more importantly can do that for myself also. the point of what I was writing was that all abuse and neglect is truamatic, so the differnce in gender responses to truama explain the difference in male/female diagnostic rates.

I know im going slighly off-track here so am going to start new post in BPD forum; "Survivor-victim", in particular response to the last 3-4 posts; brings up interesting stuff

reb

[aidanmyson08]

[im a 33 year old male ive been told i have depression, im manic, im bi polar ect... No one ever knew how to deal with me and vice versa. I was trying to figure out what was going on 5 years ago....Ill stop for a second to give BRIEF story of my life: dad left at age 4, molested age 7 by a male, Ran away from school, threatend to kill my mom, phyisical fights alot, drank, LSD, kicked out of house, moved back, dropped out in high school, dad died...got a job lost it...DRANK!, was really jealous, insecure, quit college, drank, had sex ALOT!!! DRANK, tried to kill my self caught.. FELT GOOD, drank felt bad, GOT ARRESTED,, drank got areested MORE SEX, arrested.. held knife to GF's throat, arrested, Drank, jail, jail, lost job, new girl friend..burnt her clothes, drank arrested, new jobs, new girlfreind, cheated, fight, destroyed her house, felony prison, drank.. dropped out of college AGIAN.. new job, did good... drank, got married have a kid. still drank. threw her to gound ... bonded out of jail, facing Domestic abuse, cant see my child or wife, wife want me to get help...I WILL!!! NO DRINKING(thoughts and feelins DONT go away)!!! BPD AND ALCOHOL BAD BAD BAD IDEA!! I need to exercise it helps me ALOT with stress(stress equals anger). If i work out, DONT drink and, see a therapist....for the most part i can do anything!!! ANYTHING! And yes I surpress my feelings to my wife NO MORE!! im not gonna act "hard" so it wont hurt as bad if she leaves me. She will leave me if i act like i dont have feelings!! Thats all I got...DONT DRINK!!! Ive been sober 2 weeks.

[aidanmyson08]

[im a 33 year old male ive been told i have depression, im manic, im bi polar ect... No one ever knew how to deal with me and vice versa. I was trying to figure out what was going on 5 years ago....Ill stop for a second to give BRIEF story of my life: dad left at age 4, molested age 7 by a male, Ran away from school, threatend to kill my mom, phyisical fights alot, drank, LSD, kicked out of house, moved back, dropped out in high school, dad died...got a job lost it...DRANK!, was really jealous, insecure, quit college, drank, had sex ALOT!!! DRANK, tried to kill my self caught.. FELT GOOD, drank felt bad, GOT ARRESTED,, drank got areested MORE SEX, arrested.. held knife to GF's throat, arrested, Drank, jail, jail, lost job, new girl friend..burnt her clothes, drank arrested, new jobs, new girlfreind, cheated, fight, destroyed her house, felony prison, drank.. dropped out of college AGIAN.. new job, did good... drank, got married have a kid. still drank. threw her to gound ... bonded out of jail, facing Domestic abuse, cant see my child or wife, wife want me to get help...I WILL!!! NO DRINKING(thoughts and feelins DONT go away)!!! BPD AND ALCOHOL BAD BAD BAD IDEA!! I need to exercise it helps me ALOT with stress(stress equals anger). If i work out, DONT drink and, see a therapist....for the most part i can do anything!!! ANYTHING! And yes I surpress my feelings to my wife NO MORE!! im not gonna act "hard" so it wont hurt as bad if she leaves me. She will leave me if i act like i dont have feelings!! Thats all I got...DONT DRINK!!! Ive been sober 2 weeks.