Bpd Not Curable?

[sundries]

I guess id just see the answer as to 'why' BPD behaves like that is not knowing any other way to behave. I guess i juts dotn think its much different than a toddler. Maybe they couldnt explain 'why' they lie on the floor screaming when their doll is taken away, but once they are taught they are expereincing loss and anger, and that they can deal with that in such and such a way, well thats that.

i think possibly the extra thing could be described by following analogy

just b4 parent takes away doll they sing 3 blind mice.

later on teacher is singing 3 blind mice and kid gets really angry and distressed.

Basically, you learn cause and effect. you learn that if you punch another kid youre likely to get in to trouble. in youre famiily yoou might leanr that if you swear you get told off. so in future you might be in a social cirlce that actually sees you a a bit ofa woose if you dont swaer but you would still feel anxious about swearing.

SO, you would need to learn that swearing or 3 blind mice being sung did not automatially lead to punishment. and you would need to learn this in addition to learning how to deal with dissapointment/anger of punishment.

so 1) you learn situation of punishment doesnt exist

2) you learn, if it did exist how you would deal with it.

but i dont think you really need to remember that when you were a kid every time 3 blind mice was sung you had youre doll taken away and thats why you get stressed on hearing it. you just need to learn how to deal with stress and learn what hte current consequences of 3 blind mice being sung are.

[Amanda28]

I just dont understand this. If bpd is a lack f knowledge on how to control emotions then surely that can be learnt? granted it takes kids about 10 years learning time - but then we are adults so arent having to learn loads of other stuff at the same time.

To me saying it isnt curable, you can just treat the symptoms, is a bit like saying that every adult never recovers from being a toddler, or perhaps it is like saying when people who as adults cant read are taught to read, they havent recovered from inability to read.

And if hte problem is objectively more powerful emotins (rather than emotions that appear more powerful because the person has mmissed out the emotional education clases that most people get informally from thier parents, then the objectively more powerful emotions/chemicals should be dealt with with medication - just like bipolar.

So im assuming im misunderstanding something about bpd?

This is my basic problem with DBT as a therapy. DBT treats BPD as if it WERE really only just "a lack f knowledge on how to control emotions..."

That's simply not true. If that were thecase, there really wouldn't be a genetic component in it (one would think). You may be able to learn to control your reactions to certain emotions after awhile but I think that's just a band-aid. To FIX the problem, you need to get to the CAUSE and change whatever you can, INCLUDING how you react AND medications. Changing your reactions without exploring WHY you react that way has a great potential for recurrence imo.

I think BPD has a great chance to be "curable" at least to the extent that the patient doesn't show enough symptoms to be classified BPD. But it takes a LOT OF WORK. The Unfortunate thing is that (according to the books I've read), most folks with BPD don't stck around treatment long enough to find out if it's curable or not.

I plan on sticking around.

I'm sorry but I disagree with some of what you write because you do not need to know what the cause of why you react to any situation, the reason is it really doesn't matter why, for example an alcoholic can end up going into aa and doing all 12 steps and be in recovery without ever knowing why he/she drinks, same principle with bpd, I know what I use to react to and now I can find different ways of responding to the same thing, I do not know all the reasons I have bpd or which bad situations in the past have cause my triggers, I just know I have different triggers and now know how to 'deal' with them, anyways just my opinion

[therealme]

I just posted my comments on this on another topic, but thought them worth repeating here....so much for original thought

I have just finished reading the book "Sometimes I Act Crazy" by Kreisman and Straus, and they say that ...

the future DSM-V (will) include cosideration of redefining personality (AxisII) disorders utilizing dimentional models

,

as opposed the categorical definitions now used.

This is good news as the criteria now states that say if a person fits 4 or less of the criteria for BPD, then that person does not have it. SO, in theory, and unfortunately, in practice, if one is in therapy and receiving meds and 'looses' one of the criteria, then one is said to be cured. While a cure is the goal, without taking into consideration the levels or degrees of the condition, or the remaining symptoms the person has, this leaves alot of people uncovered by the medical plan, or 'abandoned' because they are cured, when that is plainly not the case.

Baboo

And Amanda...I have to disagree with you about AA. By doing the 12 steps a person will discover why they drink...If a person doesn't get to the root of their addiction or any behaviour for that matter, I think it will come back one day and bite them on the bottom...just a thought OUCH!

[Diebold]

Healing The War Within: NLP And The Treatment Of "Borderline Personality Disorder" by Dr Richard Bolstad and Margot Hamblett.

I know many people think of NLP as Junk Science. Too bad it's worked and I've cured 6 people of debilitating phobias using it (fear of spiders, heights, etc.).

I'm embarking on self-treating myself using the methods outlined in the article above.

Perhaps the information above can be useful to others who, because of what family members have done to them, cannot trust Psycho TheRapists to fix what's wrong with them, only what they can do for themselves. I have heard self treatment is dangerous, but you know what, except when I am feeling lonely and BPD flares up, I've been the happiest in my entire life for the last 6 months thanks to all of the positive changes I have made to myself.

Anyways, good luck, and message me if you have questions about NLP. I'm a novice, but I can answer the basics.

[thatguy]

...If a person doesn't get to the root of their addiction or any behaviour for that matter, I think it will come back one day and bite them on the bottom...just a thought OUCH!

That's my point. If you don't find out why, you may be doomed to repeat it.

[InnerPeace]

Healing The War Within: NLP And The Treatment Of "Borderline Personality Disorder" by Dr Richard Bolstad and Margot Hamblett.

I know many people think of NLP as Junk Science. Too bad it's worked and I've cured 6 people of debilitating phobias using it (fear of spiders, heights, etc.).

I'm embarking on self-treating myself using the methods outlined in the article above.

Perhaps the information above can be useful to others who, because of what family members have done to them, cannot trust Psycho TheRapists to fix what's wrong with them, only what they can do for themselves. I have heard self treatment is dangerous, but you know what, except when I am feeling lonely and BPD flares up, I've been the happiest in my entire life for the last 6 months thanks to all of the positive changes I have made to myself.

Anyways, good luck, and message me if you have questions about NLP. I'm a novice, but I can answer the basics.

I think NLP is brilliant, this has to be worked with at a subconscious level because that's where all this stuff we're dealing with is, that's why therapy takes so damn long because it works on a conscious level.

I've had Timeline which is part of NLP and found it amazing.

Never heard that it's dangerous to do on yourself but I can see it would be easier with a therapist.

[anotherexborderline]

The one fear I have with NLP is that I had always thought of it as a kind of power-tool for telling your subconcious what to think... and that I was afraid part of my problem was not listening to my subconcious, so careless use of something so forceful might just make me repress better? Or do I miss the point (don't actually know that much about NLP)?

[sundries]

The thing is

why do people assume that something in the past is the 'root' of the problem?

eg say you aqre scared of spiders. Perhaps you can trace the 'root' of the problem back to feeling terrified of a spider when it crawled across your hand when you were a toddler.

But is that really the root?

maybe the root is that you didnt and still dont know how to manage anxiety?

maybe the root is fear of spiders/ or the unfamiliar - ie why were you qafraid of that spider the first time t crawled across your hand!

And say you dont know whether it is acceptable to hit someone when you are angry - now is the 'root' of the problem that your parents hit you when they were angry but told you not to hit your little brother?

or is it simply that you dont know if and when its acceptable to hit someone?

If it is the first answer, then great - youve figured out that you didnt know when to hit someone when you were a kid and nr did your parents, and you still dont - so how does that help?

if it is the second, great you know what you dont know and can ask 'when can i hit someone'.

[InnerPeace]

It doesn't end there...the root of the problem could have occurred in a past life. There's also the question about memories being passed down genetically. We have cell memory, past traumas are in our bodies not just our minds and they're in our energy field. Getting to the root of the problem does not always mean remembering/knowing what it is, there are methods of healing that remove the trauma, which is retained by the body. It is possible in that case to have the memory but no longer have the associated trauma, then it's healed, there are many methods but all work on a subconscious or energetic level, because that's where it is. If it were on a conscious level we would just tell ourselves to stop doing xyz and that would be it.

[isobelcori]

[

. . . . . . . .

"For me, I wonder the same question. Here I am, post-therapy, seemingly post-borderline and nowhere near meeting diagnostic criteria, and yet.... I don't feel so good. In fact, I would say for me the core feelings that the DSM-IV talks about, of feeling "abandoned" and "bad", are still there... Just that they have been plastered over with a whole lot of affect regulation, mindfulness, self-controls, acceptance, and new skills.

In this way, I think Dr. Linehan is right to say that dysregulated emotion is the primary controlling variable for "psychopathology" in BPD - that is, if you CAN control your feelings, then you stop acting crazy - and voila! no more "BPD" ....technically speaking that is.

But the emotions are still there and I think that this represents an enourmous blind-spot in the research that is causing us all a lot of heart-ache. For example:

in Lynch, Chapman, Rosenthal, Kuo and Linehan (2006, Journal of clinical psychology, 62, 459-480), the authors state: "The core deficit of BPD is not an excessive intensity of emotional responses, but rather, the fact that BPD individuals experience a breakdown of their cognitive, emotional, and behavioural emotional systems when they experience intense responses". -- I think this is exactly half-right. BPD hurts - I know it hurts more than tearing a disk in your spine, and I have heard that it hurts more than childbirth... but it doesn't hurt quite as much as the death of a loved one. Nor have I noticed that losing a loved one hurts BPD people more than it hurts others. What I do notice, and what the quote above completely misses the point of, is the *frequency* with which these high-order distressing emotions are felt. Most people only give birth or do their back in ever now and then. BPs confront equivalent levels of pain over and over *every single day*."

This thread really interests me, particularly the points made by anotherexborderline,above, and also by rebeccaborderline. It's something I have been thinking hard about for a while-with determined hard work and sensitive support from good therapists, it does seem as if it is possible to learn to control the symptoms, possibly even enough to stop you receiving help from Services,BUT this doesn't mean the pain has even lessened, let alone gone away. In fact, I would say that the pain has actually got worse as a result of controlling my driving need to self injure,which of course used to numb the pain. I am definitely feeling much more suicidal. though I don't 'bother ' professionals about it apart from my Tx. But I will be losing my Tx in October, which is terrifying me-would they just be taking her away if I were still self injuring? And the ED is worse than ever, though thankfully no one is tackling me about this (if I've got to stay alive and be in this pain, then at least I need to control my weight, not have someone forcefeding me.)

Does the pain ever go away? Or lessen? Is it about choosing to provide self care, or, as I have been told, 'allowing' the pain to go? (if only). Is the overwhelming sense of pointlessness part of the damage to the amydala etc? Perhaps there are no straight or universal answers. I know this threed has been running for a while, so maybe nobody has anything else to say...

And another thing... I've been having this crazy daydream recently, about a User-led PD service, perhaps based on some sort of permanent community set up to which people could come temporarily when in crisis-but run by PD sufferers-does this simpy prove how completely unhinged I am?

Is

Sorry so long winded as usual. And I couldn't work out how to qoute only part of a post.

[name]

Well at first I would have said that you can learn techniques and skills to overcome it, and change your behavior and the way you can handle emotions, and that if you work hard enough, long enough, and have years of therapy, then you can overcome BPD and no longer have it any longer.

But after reading "Lilly's" post about the brain development or lack of, if this information is true, then my opinion would have to be NO you can't cure it.

[name]

Also, what is "Mensalisation". I've googled it and I cannot come up with anything.

Thanks.

[isobelcori]

Hi name, I've been wondering that too. I think it's spelt mentalisation-I just put that spelling into Google and it did come up with some stuff, but I didn't really find any answers-no doudt someone on here will enlighten us

Is

[name]

isobelcori - i found this on wikipedia on mentalization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization

[ramfan007]

Hi All

Im new to this forum and I have found this thread very interesting since I have only just been diagnosed at the age of 40 after years of suffering, my psycotherapist diagnosed me after a year of therapy and I have to say rather than seeing this as a lablel, I am actually relieved that it is officially recongnised and I am not just crap at life. My therapist has of course know for some time that I was borderline, but she told me that she didn't like labels and I asked her to diagnose it for me.

I would like to repsond to a few points as I see it (of course I am no expert).

1) Is it curable - I hope so as I want a normal life without constantly feeling suicidal, abandoned, scared, lonlely, impulsive and all the other intense feelings that we get. to some extent I am starting to learn that those feelings will pass and I try hard not to act on them any more, but are they still intense - yes very much so. My point is that both points are valid, are you cured if you don't act on those feelings, well under the defenitinion of BPD you would be as you are no longer self harming or destroying your quality of life (and therefore cannot be classified BPD), but if the intense emotion is still in place then like an alcoholic you are still only one drink away falling of the wagon and if you get into a really bad situation staying strong could be difficult. I hope that I can be cured of both the syptoms and the cause because quite frankly I am fed up of feeling crap and useless and having destroyed my life more than once before really do not want to do it again.

2) Is it imprtant to know why you have the response to the emotion, this I think very much depends on the individual, for me I have found it really helpfull that I know that I was abused and abandonded as a child and that a particular repsonse is rooted in my past, this help me to overcome the feeling by saying to my self this repsonse is no longer rational (as my therapist puts it "its an old response to a new problem"), that said if you can overcome your reponse by simply changing your response to the present feeling without understanding the origional cuase, then what is wrong with that, absoloutly nothing.

3) During early childhood development you brain develops and the pathways are created. Look at stroke paitients they have a stroke, part of the brain dies, but you can still learn to talk and walk again, how is that well I read somewhere that the brain adapts to the new situation. the understanding of how the brain works is as was said a new science so it is entirley possible that new pathways are created as learning takes place, that could pottentially take on the function of the origional pathways had they developed.

Sorry for my rambles, I hope you are all in a good place, and if not that you stay safe

[anotherexborderline]

Hi Ramfan007,

then like an alcoholic you are still only one drink away falling of the wagon and if you get into a really bad situation staying strong could be difficult.

I just wanted to reassure you from my (and others) experience it's not that precarious. It's like Amanda28 says above - you actually get to a point where even if you haven't the faintest idea what is underlying the feelings, and even if they become totally overwhelming, you can be mindful enough and skilled enough that you really aren't in any danger at all. What you are left with then is not so much a DSM-IV disorder per-se, but rather just misery, pessimism, demotivation, lonelyness, anxiety and preoccupation ~ which are things I would dearly love to be rid of as well!!!!

Re MentaliZation (damn yanky spelling!):

The therapists handbook is here:

http://www.amazon.com/Psychotherapy-Border...1759&sr=1-1

A professional review of the book is here:

Title: Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: Mentalization-Based Treatment.

Year of Publication 2005

Author Meares, Russell.

Source Psychological Medicine. Vol 35(4) Apr 2005, 599-601. Cambridge Univ Press.

Abstract: Review of the book, "Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder:

Mentalization-Based Treatment" (2004) by A. W. Bateman and P. Fonagy. This is an important book. It comes at a time of 'guarded optimism', to use the author's words regarding personality disorder. It is now apparent, after a decade or so of research, that 'personality is changeable and treatable.' Bateman and Fonagy have been significant contributors to the research leading to this conclusion. Their reports on the outcome of their borderline programme, together with two other reports, from Seattle and Sydney, provide the main basis for the view that borderline disorder is treatable. These three studies are the first which largely conform to the standards of adequate of research in this area. In addition to the clearly formulated theoretical background the book provides a manual of practice which will be very useful to those setting out on (---snip insensitive comment about our behaviour during treatment---). It also includes protocols for patient information, training materials, crisis plans and so forth. As a book on the borderline condition, however, this volume has its flaws. It gives only a limited sense and feeling of the borderline experience.

[anotherexborderline]

Also - reduced Amygdala and Hippocampal volume may be reversable? Particularly with SSRI meds (prozac, zoloft, effexor etc.):

Brain imaging studies have mapped out the neural circuitry of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), implicating brain areas sensitive to stress such as the hippocampus. Animal studies show that antidepressants promote hippocampal neurogenesis and block the effects of stress on the hippocampus. We found that treatment of PTSD patients for a year with the serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) paroxetine resulted in a 5% increase in hippocampal volume and a 35% improvement in verbal declarative memory function. Patients subjectively reported an improvement in cognition and work performance. These studies are consistent with the idea that antidepressants have a beneficial effect on hippocampal function in PTSD patients.(J DOUGLAS BREMNER, ERIC VERMETTEN (2004) Neuroanatomical Changes Associated with Pharmacotherapy in Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 1032 (1), 154–157. doi:10.1196/annals.1314.012)

The hippocampus is one of the first places adult neurogenesis (adults growing new brain cells) was identified in humans, and this was only a few years ago. There is a scramble on at the moment to identify where else new braincells might form, and there is some evidence to suggest the answer is everywhere. I remember reading an article a few years back that showed increases in Amygdala volume in PTSD patients who took SSRIs over a nine month period, but I can't seem to find it right at the moment

[nobodyzdream]

The hippocampus is one of the first places adult neurogenesis (adults growing new brain cells) was identified in humans, and this was only a few years ago. There is a scramble on at the moment to identify where else new braincells might form, and there is some evidence to suggest the answer is everywhere. I remember reading an article a few years back that showed increases in Amygdala volume in PTSD patients who took SSRIs over a nine month period, but I can't seem to find it right at the moment

Got interested there were a lot of links though, no clue which one you were talking about, but it seems there is a lot of interest in this. Sorry, I'm not good with reading things like this really-this link actually talks about what happened during some research. Looking for an easier to read one...

http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/research2.htm

and found another link that was interesting to me at least to compare to

http://www.autismconnect.org/news.asp?sect...ews&id=5973

[rebeccaborderline]

Also - reduced Amygdala and Hippocampal volume may be reversable? Particularly with SSRI meds (prozac, zoloft, effexor etc.):

. Animal studies show that antidepressants promote hippocampal neurogenesis and block the effects of stress on the hippocampus. We found that treatment of PTSD patients for a year with the serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) paroxetine resulted in a 5% increase in hippocampal volume and a 35% improvement in verbal declarative memory function.

Wow this is interesting (thanks anotherexborderline) because it is at odds with what I have been told and what I have experienced. Im diagnosed with cPTSD and at one point was put on the SSRI Zispin; within 3 weeks I was on a psych ward. I'd become highly agitated, perhaps manic, started S/H for the first time and generally was very distressed. I am now not allowed SSRIs. Years later my T told me that SSRIs are used to lift depressives who are particularly apathetic ie to stimulate them into start feeling things again. However PTSD patients are already hyperstimulated by constant oversensitivity, constant triggers, constant emotional surges, so to stimulate them more with SSRIs is counterproductive and possibly damaging, as in my case. Thus my T told me that it is generally accepted that (some) SSRIs are not suitable for (some) PTSD patients. (Ive qualified it with "some" as I guess there are always exceptions to the rule)

rebeccaborderline

[laura_25]

I was put on SSRI's twice and both times became very agitated and suicidal. As soon as I stopped them I felt a lot better. I don't have PTSD but I guess it might have a similar effect on bpd? Zispin seems to work ok on me though, it is a SNRI but don't exactly know how the chemical structure differs.

[ramfan007]

I am on SSRI,s and have been for nearly 5 weeks now. I was becoming more suicidal with each passing day and finding it harder to control my swingning emotions, I was rapidly heading for a major suicidal episode (and it would probaly have been my last as I was activly thinking about how not to get caught). For the first few weeks I had some quite bad reactions including muscle spasms etc. The SSRI's did start to take effect until I was in week 3 and up to that point the depressions got worse and I felt more suicidal especially in the morning after first waking up, but as always this passed sometime with surprising rapidity, sometmes returning at points in the day, especially when a high stress situation occured (e-mail from work, argument with wife etc) I did not however try to act upon the emotions but locked myself away only going out when absolutly necessary (therapy etc) whilst at these times I felt like killing myself was easier than living, I chose to ride these feeling (albeit with the support of my wife, who hardly left my side). After nearly 5 weeks, the difference is amazing, I feel posotive again, have started going out and actually want to go back to work sooner rather than later. I don't know if this is the meds or a combination of the meds and therapy, but its one of the first times I can remember for a long time when I didn't wake up wanting to die. Having now rer read what I have just writen, i think it is probably a combination of things which have lead to this success, the meds the therapy and the close support I have recieved from my wife, without my wife, i am quite sure I may have taken active steps, certaintly without the therapy I would have sucumbed, maybe even with my wife there. It is hard to say.

[Amanda28]

And Amanda...I have to disagree with you about AA. By doing the 12 steps a person will discover why they drink...If a person doesn't get to the root of their addiction or any behaviour for that matter, I think it will come back one day and bite them on the bottom...just a thought OUCH!

[anotherexborderline]

Re SSRIs, I have heard that different types affect different people differently - e.g. Zoloft worked like magic for me... I had been told it took 2 weeks to start working, but I felt a "kick" within 5 minutes of the first 25mg I took, and was in a kind of mellow valium-like fog for two weeks, after which I found slowly increasing doses (+25mg/6mths up to 100mg/day max) kept me content, similar to the way coffee keeps you awake (and the fog lifted after 2 weeks and I could drive and work fine again). I still remember my meds fondly to this day .

However on the other hand Zoloft turns lots of other people into axe-murderering psychos in no time.

My psychiatrist had warned me when we started that there was no way of knowing if any given SSRI was going to be the "right" match for me, and that if it had adverse effects we would stop, wait, and try another one (if I was ok with that). I don't know how important they ended up being in the long run however, I suspect therapy was more important.

CAVEAT: For me SSRIs felt like super-willpower on tap. I could endure stressors right up to the point where I *knew* I would always snap into a self-harming fit, and then.... nothing! I could just keep on pushing on, it was like magic... until the will-power eventually dried up anyway and I would snap, only to find myself 3 times as stressed and 3 times as far from safety as usual... those were the most dangerous episodes I EVER had. If you are on SSRIs, be gentle with yourself, and make sure everyone else is too!!!

[anotherexborderline]

nobodyzdream,

Crikey that's the mother-lode of BPD neuro-links!!! That's going to keep me busy for months, thanks!

The one I was talking about wasn't there, I remember it was some article about general PTSD in abuse survivors. It's somewhere on my old (unused) hard-drive, I must plug it in and try to find it sometime this week.

( p.s. reading about how anxiety produces cortisol that can then damage my amygdala and hippocampus always makes me anxious, which produces cortisol which might damage my amygdala and hippocampus. I get kind of anxious about that... )

[Diebold]

However on the other hand Zoloft turns lots of other people into axe-murderering psychos in no time.

Shit, things have changed in 7 years then. When I did Zoloft after diagnosis in 2000, it made my life baseline even mellow. no highs, no lows, masturbation worthless. There was no point in living, and no point in dying. I was in zombie mode.

But fuck did that work for a while. Eventually, I wanted to live again. It took years of rethinking, and even now I slide into BPD fits, NLP training aside.