When Is It Enough ?

[Sorrel]

I just thought I might post this up, this is a real injustice:

Three days before jumping to her death from a balcony in St. Charles Bend’s main lobby, Cindy Powell drove to the hospital’s emergency room with multiple cuts on her arms from a kitchen knife.

Yeah I agree. In some ways. however, I do think all was done for her that could be. In others not so. I think the attitude towards her, as a result of her BPD, played the biggest role in her mistreatment. The fact is that they didn't think this woman was serious. They thought she was just stirring up trouble to get her own needs of attention met, and that she didn't ever actually want to die. This belief of theirs meant that they weren't prepared to give her even the benefit of the doubt. I've put that in bold, because I think that this is the main mistake that medics make in treating the mentally disturbed, of any diagnosis where hostility or disbelief is given to the patient. This happens a lot, maybe most, with borderline patients. By not giving borderlines the benefit of the doubt, that is where the injustice lies. How dare the medical profession presume to know that the presented display of distress is an exaggeration. Every single time they make this presumption, even if it is after years of knowing a patient to have presented like this in A&E and never yet succeeded in killing themselves, they are letting their patient down. One day there's a very real chance that that patient WILL succeed, even if only by accident. And the medical profession cannot afford to let their guard down at any time, because that's when a borderline might very well feel overwhelmed with hurt that no one will listen to her, and use that as reason to end her life for good, being intelligent enough to employ her cunning to make use of their lowered guard and escape their grasp. That is not manipulation, that is desperation. That is having an end in sight, and taking any window that presents itself.

And anyway, this use of the word manipulation does my head in because, whenever it is used disparagingly against a borderline patient, it just always seems that they are saying that borderlines are manipulative for manipulation's sake. Because the word "manipulative" carries default negative connotations. In the English language, no circumstance exists where this word is a positive quality. Other words like this are conceited, bland (in my opinion always negative), useless etc. But there are other words that could be used to describe the behaviour of borderlines besides this ever-condemning one. I have to say that even the notion of attention-seeking is easier to want to empathise with than manipulation. If ever I've been tempted to accuse someone of being manipulative there are 2 qualities about that person's interaction that differ from a borderline's "manipulation."

1. The manipulative person DOES NOT CARE what effect they have on those that they manipulate. A borderline patient is only too aware of the distress they may cause to other people, and thinks up harm beyond that which has been caused, because their self esteem is piteously low and they very often have an innate belief that they are bad. And I think stress-induced splitting etc only serves to confuse the borderline more, and things like splitting (which must so infuriate medical staff if they are ignorant about BPD) are their learned forms of self-protection. And that is why they have their diagnosis, and they should not be condemned for this. Oh I just think that borderlines are so misunderstood by ignorant medical profession.

2. (perhaps more arguable than the 1st) The manipulative person is out to make sordid or cruel or perverted gains. The gains a borderline patient hopes for are the very sad and heart-rending gains of love and care and an end to loneliness, by way of attention, such is his/her mind/personality disordered through no fault of their own.

We need to find a word to describe the manipulative process of behaviour that does not carry the non-negotiable negative connotation. Gah my brain can't do it now. Food for thought, and really important.

Powell told a nurse Friday night that she had flown into a rage and cut herself to diffuse the situation, according to medical records.

That behavior is consistent with her diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, Henderson said, and is a common symptom of the illness.

“The reality is that people who are lethally attempting to kill themselves do not drive themselves to the (emergency room),” she said. “It would have been contraindicated and harmful for her to be repeatedly hospitalized.”

There we go, she was not given the benefit of the doubt that would have left them room to think, "Well, we may all think that she is just acting out this weekend because her injuries are, by our standards, non lethal. But let's not rule out the possibilty that she's a highly vulnerable case neverthless. Even though we've seen more convincing displays of suicidal behaviour come through these ER doors plenty of times. Even though we hate time wasters because we're over stretched - is this person who is diagnostically mentally distressed ever able to be a deliberate time waster? No, time wasters are those who prank call the emergency services and send our ambulances to a fake scene when they could be helping genuine cases elsewhere. A person who's been diagnosed with a mental health disorder, the criteria of which include severe mental distress and persistent suicidal thinking and gesturing... This person is NOT a time waster. It's just unfortunate for us, and OUR problem - not something we should take out on the patients - that we find it difficult to guage a person's genuine suicidality. But this is our problem, and we must never let thaty get in the way of giving these people our unconditional help. And when she says to us that she didn't intend on killing herself, and that she's fine to go home, she won't try to hurt herself again, let's just think about how much we believe her, and watch her as carefully as possible for signs of vulnerability that she's not admitting to." If only they'd thought and said all this!! If only all A&E staff always thought and spoke like this.

Her doctor wrote that Powell “has us over a barrel.”

“She, I think, really is very manipulative wanting only to be taken care of, but refusing any direct care claiming that she wants to kill herself,” Dr. William Campbell wrote. “I think we are faced with having to evaluate whether to commit her or not and with that moving her to Sage View.”

That evening, after a half-hour meeting with a clinical social worker, Powell changed her mind and agreed to “contract for safety,” promising she wouldn’t hurt herself on the way to Sage View.

At 8 p.m., a clinical social worker and a member of Sage View’s staff picked up Powell from her room and took her downstairs to get her purse, which was still in the admitting area.

Contrary to normal protocols, they walked her through the hospital’s main lobby. She was not restrained because she was not violent, and the organization that certifies the hospital does not allow it, Henderson said.

Well here's their mistake. And it's because they let their guard down. They made an assumption about her not being a danger to herself, and that assumption was incorrect. You can't afford to go around acting on assumptions when it surrounds the issue of someone's life!

Thanks for this story. It's made me think a LOT. I really want to think of a good neutral, factual word or description to replace manipulative. But brain not engaged right now lol.

[sundries]

influence/encourage?

i once took an Od. i realised half way through that i wasnt going to be able to take enough because the talc in the pills meant i simply couldnt swallow enough (id preivously Od'd on same pills but they were the ones that disolve in mouth where as these were the swallow form, and knew theyd send me unconscious and was going to take something else as well this time that woudl kill me while i was unconscious). I was then left with choice - risk severe damage but definitely not death by just lying there not doing anything or phone for help. was lucky i didnt go unconscious while i psyched myself up to call. but of course once i was there the fact id called ofr help meant 'she cant seriously have intended anything' - that is thier attitude.

in regards to emptiness. i guess i just see it as a form of hopelessness and then its about finding somethign to hope for or enjoy. in terms of futility of life, my personal answer is that the only point of living really is to see what living is like, i guess i have a lot of curiosity, and hte purpose of life is being able to adapt and swim with tide.

i like the edward morton

'he knows not where he is going

for the ocean will decide

its not the destination

its the glory of the ride

have also used black and white thinking to my advantage - just cos the good doesnt outweigh the suffering, doesnt stop stuff being totally good when its good. so daffodils are perfectly lovely and the fact i have a broken leg doesnt alter the pleasure of a daffodil.

i like wordsworth

for oft when on my couch i lie

in vacant or in pensive mood

they flash upon that inward eye

which is the bliss of solitude

and then my heart with pleasure fills

and dances with the daffodils.

[sundries]

also

perhaps

'demonstrate'

so a borderline could be like child trying to 'show' (or in dimissive terms 'act out' - and what is wrong with miming?) the problem, trying to show 'this is how much i hurt' cos doesnt know how else to express, she is trying to communicate by demonstrating. picture rather than word format. so not a dishonest attempt to seek input but an honest attempt to communicate pain that she cant put into words.

[foreverborderline]

I often feel that I am still a child..Like a little boy who needs to have his way.

[icu_baby]

I often feel that I am still a child..Like a little boy who needs to have his way.

That explains alot of lawyers.

[icu_baby]

influence/encourage?

i like the edward morton

'he knows not where he is going

for the ocean will decide

its not the destination

its the glory of the ride

Dear Sundries, thank you so much for posting this absolutely beautiful stanza. I adore it. Its so true. I am going to copy this and read every now and then. I guess this is what I was trying to say earlier about having a goal and half the fun is getting there with "its the glory of the ride" except I didn't quite say it as magistically and poetically as Edward Morton.

Sorrel, do you like this poem. I think the line "for the ocean will decide" resonates with me the most. I mean, this is opposite of what we were talking about earlier. Maybe it applies to the decisions we make in life (we make decisions which take us places and leads us to other places we didn't know it would lead us to. However, suicide is probably the only decision you can make where the ocean will not decide (unless you survive ofcourse.).

I don't want to drift off the topic here but here is a qoute from T.S Elliot that I love:

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we first started, and to know that place for the first time.

Thinking like a borderline, maybe after we do DBT we can look at ourselves and know oursleves differently for the first time.

[icu_baby]

I just thought I might post this up, this is a real injustice:

Three days before jumping to her death from a balcony in St. Charles Bend’s main lobby, Cindy Powell drove to the hospital’s emergency room with multiple cuts on her arms from a kitchen knife.

Yeah I agree. In some ways. however, I do think all was done for her that could be. In others not so. I think the attitude towards her, as a result of her BPD, played the biggest role in her mistreatment. The fact is that they didn't think this woman was serious. They thought she was just stirring up trouble to get her own needs of attention met, and that she didn't ever actually want to die. This belief of theirs meant that they weren't prepared to give her even the benefit of the doubt. I've put that in bold, because I think that this is the main mistake that medics make in treating the mentally disturbed, of any diagnosis where hostility or disbelief is given to the patient. This happens a lot, maybe most, with borderline patients. By not giving borderlines the benefit of the doubt, that is where the injustice lies. How dare the medical profession presume to know that the presented display of distress is an exaggeration. Every single time they make this presumption, even if it is after years of knowing a patient to have presented like this in A&E and never yet succeeded in killing themselves, they are letting their patient down. One day there's a very real chance that that patient WILL succeed, even if only by accident. And the medical profession cannot afford to let their guard down at any time, because that's when a borderline might very well feel overwhelmed with hurt that no one will listen to her, and use that as reason to end her life for good, being intelligent enough to employ her cunning to make use of their lowered guard and escape their grasp. That is not manipulation, that is desperation. That is having an end in sight, and taking any window that presents itself.

I totally agree. I think this is exactly what goes on in ER departments. I think in another article one doctor allegedly responded to cindy's death with disdain. I think this is quite sick because doctors are supposed to care about human beings no matter what personalities they have, all life should be valued and they should do their best to save all life - this is their ethical duty. I think Cindy was failed. I mean when someone has to present themselves several times for self-injury over several years, the mental heath system needs to take a step back and ask where they are going wrong/why have they failed their clients. Also, I don't think that her life should have to be in danger of your life to necessarily detain her before her last presentation, ie when she called on the phone (I know they eventually did but she ran off). The fact that she seriously self harmed is enough to have committed her - there was no need to decide. Even though I am against forced hospitalisation (so it is a bit hypocritical for me to say this) I think in her case she needed to be. I think the staff realised and acknowledged that to an extent when the nurse said that their was some external factors in her life had prescipitated her severe mental breakdown (recent death of her mother, divorce of her husband and severe financial problems - I mean this is enough to tip anyone over the edge, borderline or not). The poor lonely women was SEVERELY DEPRESSED (the ER staff need to recognise that you can have BPD AND also deverlop suffer other mental illness that superimpose your BPD; really its not rocket science!).

From a civil rights perspective (and I am a strong advocate on civil liberties such as freedom of movement) I respect that if someone says they are not going to kill themselves they should not be involuntarily committed, but as you pointed out, given all the facts, I would find it hard to believe her that she would guarantee her safety. She was clearly at risk of serious self harm (this need not be suicide). She obviously showed has extreme mood disturbance and they would not think twice about hospitalising someone with bipolar. I find it hard to believe that someone who butchers themselves with a knife and writes in their own blood on the wall is not severely mentally disturbed (I mean this is not just small cutting on the arm). You cannot blame this on somones "personality", this person was truly mentally ill.

From a doctors perspective, they ar supposedly "baffeled" because she says she wants to be cared for but at the same time refuses help. Again, the doctors need to realise that some people may either be too proud to ask for help, may be too ashamed to ask for help, or may not think they are worthy enough to deserve help while deep down secretly people will be able to see through her pain and read her true feelings; hence her changing her mind about wanting to go to a hospital or not. Maybe this is the "manipulativeness' which is a result of a Borderlines deep fear of rejection and deep insecurity that staff don't understand. Its like she is trying to test them (though she is not trying to be manipulative). Its almost like she is standing on a ledge of a bridge, for example and ER staff are asking her if she is going to jump off and she says "no I am not going to jump off, I am admiring the view (when commonsense tells you you don't need to stand on a ledge to enjoy the view of the bridge, it is obvious too everyone she is contemplating jumping off). In her mind (however sick it is) she is testing if anyone cares for her (almost as though she is testing her parents love for her). If they go "ok, cool no problem" and walk away, in her mind, they are abandoning her/they don't genuinely care for her. On the other hand, if they say "we think you are unsafe from the ledge and want you to come down even though you may think its ok to stand on the ledge of the bridge", they pass the test, someone cares for her, she is worth someones care. I mean this is clearly an exaggerated example but I think this is what was really going on in her mind because of her diaries with the word "I want help" written on it.

One last point, I think western culture has a bit to blame re BPD. I was told that BPD is actually a phenomena in western countries and virtually undocumented in other parts of the world. I mean you find bipolar disorder and scizophrenia (can't spell) in all cultures but for some reason BPD is found in western countries. Maybe this is because there is a stronger sense of family or community, I don't know the reason for this. I just thought it was interesting to note. But I think that her sisters are very much to blame. I mean, how could you let your own sister, your own flesh and blood, live in a small apartment when they knew she needed help and she was so vunerable. Was it too much to have taken her under their own roofs, at least for a while considering she was all alone after he mother had died? In all fairness, I don't want to judge her sister's especially since i don't know the whole story but that emptyness again comes when you are not surrounded by good food, wine and good company. She felt she was all alone. This was not a case where the sick family member is living under the care of their family and commits suicide due to a psychotic episode. If your own family doesn't take care of you when you are ill or atleast advocate for you...I mean where were her sisters when she was in hospital for two days? Why were they not talking to the Doctors?

We need to find a word to describe the manipulative process of behaviour that does not carry the non-negotiable negative connotation. Gah my brain can't do it now. Food for thought, and really important.

I actually did raise this issue with the Director of Mental Health in my area and he told me he cannot tell his staff what to say but this is what I told him:

According to Dr Joel Dvoskin there is a stigma associated with the diagnosis of BPD and he stresses that “not all mental health diagnoses foster treatment and often results in substandard treatment with people with the disorder..for example mental health professionals often label undesired behaviours of BPD clients as “manipulative and in need of punishment.. He suggests that pejorative words not to be used as it hurts people very much regardless of the fact that they have BPD or not. Other words are more acceptable such as agitated, frustrated are less derogatory. The term manipulative implies some sort of devious, planned intent. While this may be true of some people who appear to be manipulative often act impulsively out of fear, desperation and hopelessness – not maliciously. According to Dr Marsha Lineham, threats of suicide or communication of intense pain and agony is not by itself evidence of manipulation otherwise we would all have to say that people who are in pain or crises are “manipulating” us if we respond to them.

Perhaps if someone calls you manipulative or if you read it in your file, you may like to explain the above to them.

Powell told a nurse Friday night that she had flown into a rage and cut herself to diffuse the situation, according to medical records.

That behavior is consistent with her diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, Henderson said, and is a common symptom of the illness.

“The reality is that people who are lethally attempting to kill themselves do not drive themselves to the (emergency room),” she said. “It would have been contraindicated and harmful for her to be repeatedly hospitalized.”

There we go, she was not given the benefit of the doubt that would have left them room to think, "Well, we may all think that she is just acting out this weekend because her injuries are, by our standards, non lethal. But let's not rule out the possibilty that she's a highly vulnerable case neverthless. Even though we've seen more convincing displays of suicidal behaviour come through these ER doors plenty of times. Even though we hate time wasters because we're over stretched - is this person who is diagnostically mentally distressed ever able to be a deliberate time waster? No, time wasters are those who prank call the emergency services and send our ambulances to a fake scene when they could be helping genuine cases elsewhere. A person who's been diagnosed with a mental health disorder, the criteria of which include severe mental distress and persistent suicidal thinking and gesturing... This person is NOT a time waster. It's just unfortunate for us, and OUR problem - not something we should take out on the patients - that we find it difficult to guage a person's genuine suicidality. But this is our problem, and we must never let thaty get in the way of giving these people our unconditional help. And when she says to us that she didn't intend on killing herself, and that she's fine to go home, she won't try to hurt herself again, let's just think about how much we believe her, and watch her as carefully as possible for signs of vulnerability that she's not admitting to." If only they'd thought and said all this!! If only all A&E staff always thought and spoke like this.

Spot on, you should be a psychiartrist or psychologist. I also want to add this analogy that I read somewhere, is it acceptable to let a 3 year old play with his toys on a road even though the road is not very busy and there is no cars coming?

Her doctor wrote that Powell “has us over a barrel.”

“She, I think, really is very manipulative wanting only to be taken care of, but refusing any direct care claiming that she wants to kill herself,” Dr. William Campbell wrote. “I think we are faced with having to evaluate whether to commit her or not and with that moving her to Sage View.”

That evening, after a half-hour meeting with a clinical social worker, Powell changed her mind and agreed to “contract for safety,” promising she wouldn’t hurt herself on the way to Sage View.

At 8 p.m., a clinical social worker and a member of Sage View’s staff picked up Powell from her room and took her downstairs to get her purse, which was still in the admitting area.

Contrary to normal protocols, they walked her through the hospital’s main lobby. She was not restrained because she was not violent, and the organization that certifies the hospital does not allow it, Henderson said.

Well here's their mistake. And it's because they let their guard down. They made an assumption about her not being a danger to herself, and that assumption was incorrect. You can't afford to go around acting on assumptions when it surrounds the issue of someone's life!

I think this makes for a very strong action in negligence. They owed a duty of care and breached there standard of care

Thanks for this story. It's made me think a LOT. I really want to think of a good neutral, factual word or description to replace manipulative. But brain not engaged right now lol.

Your thinking too much, lol, I can't keep up with your thinking! Give your brain a rest, it deserves it!

[icu_baby]

Whenever I have talked about my suicidal thoughts and impulses with crisis teams or therapists or doctors, when I get to the crux of my difficulty with it all - my cowardice coming in at the last minute and scaring me shitless - they always say, GOOD. Good if you are a coward about this, because it saves your life. It's a funny situation for me because being faced with my cowardice is crushing and humiliating, and disappointing. Feeling cowardly makes me hate myself, and then a suicidal cycle can begin because I hate myself for being a coward so much that I want to do away with my useless self, but then I stop again because I'm a coward. And then I hate myself so I won't to kill myself, but then I stop..... etc etc etc.

Your T and Doctors are right! I have actually thought the same thing but when you think about it this way, when you are dead, you can't get back up and say "you see, I did it, I told you I was not a coward!" because you will be dead and will not feel anything. I think its better to have a goal you an achieve and say "you see, you thought I couldn't do this and i did". This is much more satisfying, trust me.

In your post, you mentioned that thinking about this can, in itself, cause the spirit to get heavy enough to feel suicidal. It's a delicate balance. And the suicidal thinking is often a delicate balance, so easily tipped, so flimsy... so scary as a result. You have given me a lot to think about. Especially with regards to the BPD aspect, and its associated chronic emptiness, and how dangerous that can be. And how sad it is, as you say, that such vulnerable people are not always taken as seriously as they should be.

Are you a philosopher, lol, this is really good stuff? Suicidal thoughts as a delicate balance. Its almost like hearing voices in your head and learning to tolerate it, though the preference is you wish you could not hear the voices. Another brilliant thing to raise with my T, one hour isn’t enough this week!

I do like the saying in A Shawshank Redemption though "you can get busy living; or you can get busy dying".

Having BPD is hard because when you are sick in your head you busy trying to do two apposing things.

Your situation in the hospital after your failed attempt is horrible. It's so ridiculous that an umbrella term like the diagnosis of BPD can prevent people from remembering that, hey, you are not just a statistical example of an illness acted out, you are a HUMAN BEING. An individual. And regardless of whether or not your struggle and pain which caused you to try to commit suicide has a pathological beginning, the medical profession should never lose sight of the fact that you are a real person, struggling with your disorder. An illness like heart disease, which can be caused by a lifetime of overeating, clogging your arteries with cholesterol (or whatever the science is, I'm not exactly sure), and stress at work etc, or by just being male (because men are more prone to it than women), but even if a doctor thinks that you wouldn't have had this heart attack if you'd lived more healthily, it doesn't mean that the doctor should treat you with scorn or lack of empathy. And I don't think in that kind of case, a doctor would.

I agree, however doctors do face choices regarding who to save for physical illnesses as a nurse I know told me. We were having a general conversation and I can't remember exactly what she said but I was surprised to learn that usually in terms of doing organ transplants and the like, if you are a smoker or older something, they will choose the person who doesn't smoke over the smoker.

You raise some excellent points though esp with the diabeties example. I think though that maybe it goes more towards treatability rather than whether something was caused by a your own fault (eg your lifestyle or your personality) v's a biological beggining. With Diabities II for example (say you develop it because of your eating habbits and no excercise), the Dr finds this easy to treat provided it does not become complicated and you require an amputation (eg he/she gives you insulin tablets or needle). With Bipolar disorder, again, this is simple, you get given lithium or whatever. Again, Drs/psychiatrists love this because it is easy to treat with medication. Personality disorders are much harder to treat and are more emotionally laden and I think this is why many psychiatrists just don't want to deal with people who are borderline. But again there is no need to treat someone with scorn and disdain as you said.

And BPD isn't a sufferer's fault in any way... They didn't bring it on themselves, their parenting did, or their abusive past, and perhaps a genetic predisposition, or perhaps a faulty lymbic system in the brain (according to Dr. Leland Heller), so why should you be treated as if you are to blame? What an injustice. I read somewhere that if you develop PTSD after an abusive past, you are a hero, but if you get BPD, you're a pain in the ass. Where's the fairness? And why must mental illness, even within the medical profession, still carry such a stigma. BPD is possibly the best and most consistent example of that prejudice and stigma. And, like you said, if you're dealing with the stigma of BPD on top of the taboo subject of suicide... what a heady cocktail.

Absolutely! And biological v's personality disorder developed from environmental factors is not so clear cut anyway. Studies show that your enviornment can actually cause chemical changes in your brain and wire your brain. The brain is indeed a complex organ. Even if you have what is considered a biological illness eg depression or bipolar II, these can also be precipitated by the environment or as a reaction to the environment. Again, alot of work as been done to reduce the stigma associated with depression. Its just a matter of time that this happens with BPD.

Your right if you suffer PTSD you are a hero. But it wasn't always the case remember. Alot of war vetarians were told they were not "real men" or "weak" when they subsquently developed PTSD. There was alot of advocating etc for a change in attitude. Even now there is not enough support for those who come back from current conflicts. The same is happening with people with BPD. An excellent psychiatrist Dr George Valliant who is an advocate for people with BPD (and actually likes working with us) said that pdocs should try and understand the link between childhood trauma (eg sexual and phsyical abuse etc) and the way it affects someones behaviour so they are more sympathetic. Sometimes people with BPD feel they are punished by the psychiatric profession for suffering an injustice in the first place. Dr George Valliant has challenged pdocs to find one person with BPD whose diagnoisis cannot be better explained by some other diagnoises (eg PTSD, cronic PTSD, soft bipolar disorder) and no one has risen to the challenge yet.

Oh yes and I will definitely bring this to my therapist to talk about. because even if she doesn't have the answers, it's still helpful to talk about this stuff in a therapeutic environment where it's safe, and can be validated.

Let me know what your T says in all her wisdom. If you want you can pm me!

Sorrel

[Sorrel]

also

perhaps

'demonstrate'

so a borderline could be like child trying to 'show' (or in dimissive terms 'act out' - and what is wrong with miming?) the problem, trying to show 'this is how much i hurt' cos doesnt know how else to express, she is trying to communicate by demonstrating. picture rather than word format. so not a dishonest attempt to seek input but an honest attempt to communicate pain that she cant put into words.

I love that bit you wrote - "this is how much I hurt" I imagine a child looking up with a sort of lost quizzical look on his face, pointing at his arm, desperate that this new method of demonstrating what his experience of pain really is like, and how wrong it feels inside, should finally be a language that someone else will understand. He's so convinced that everything is wrong about this pain and this existence that he has to find some way of making an outsider understand him, because only then will he find peace and only then will he be validated and complete. But no one ever seems to quite get it, and so he will try everything he can to get people to understand, because that's how he imagines he will feel loved, when someone does finally understand.

Back to the replacement of manipulation as a term, I think influence is a very good and direct translation - it is a synonym of manipulate - but it is such a lighter and kinder word, isn't it?

[Sorrel]

icu_baby... oh my god longest post yet lol!!!

SO interesting but I don't have the energy to reply right now. But I will. By the way it's so funny how recent events can cloud your memory of the past, but I was really shocked at myself for having forgotten the longer term societal attitude to PTSD. When I overload myself with information, and I've been doing a lot of reading about mental illness lately, I just lose a bit of perspective from the overkill. Yes of course, so many Vietnam veterans were just left to rot weren't they? And, haunted by the memories, they became alcoholics or drug addicts, and drop outs and were considered low lives. I always think of Forrest Gump. And also, 50 years ago, homosexuality was in the DSM... How things change. Which means that attitudes to BPD will undoubtedly be different in years to come. Right now it feels like it's at the epicentre of current professional stigmatising. Because most of what we've been talking about is the attitudes of professionals, not that of friends. But that's actually a whole other conversation - friends'/relatives' attitude to BPD patient vs. professionals'.