The Angries

[wednesday]

Walker-- it more that just seeing that you childhood messed you up. You have to do it at a really deep leel and begin to feel compassion for yourself. That is, really taking yourself back to being a child and really believing that you were a loveable person, it was just that your parents didn't make you feel that you were. This is only the beginning of self acceptance. It is more productive to learn to love tha child you were than focussing on all the bad your parents did. (that's what I believe anyway)

[hummm_mabbe]

Walker-- it more that just seeing that you childhood messed you up. You have to do it at a really deep leel and begin to feel compassion for yourself. That is, really taking yourself back to being a child and really believing that you were a loveable person, it was just that your parents didn't make you feel that you were. This is only the beginning of self acceptance. It is more productive to learn to love tha child you were than focussing on all the bad your parents did. (that's what I believe anyway)

It sounds like you are describiung what CBT therapists would call "developing self esteem". As CBT has seen again and again, it doesnt work for those with BPD. Thats why they had to invent a new therapy - which DOES look at the parenting relationship. A therapy which has been scitnifiaclly proven to work. The FIRST THERAPY that has had such a study.

In my experience, if you do not get angry at what they did, then the anger remains. The anger will always overpower the love you want to feel for that little child because the HATRED that parents installed is far more powerful.

Its like trying to have compassion for someone that murdered your child. Some faiths may say they can forgive without anger. But in the culture I live in, anger and grief has to come before forgiveness.

Its only fear of facing the fact that our parents were NOT good, that they failed us - that makes us want to look elsewhere. Its what keeps us endlessly searching, endlessly feeling "OHHH if only I tried harder ! The reason this therapy isnt working is because I am BAD - I am failing at it". Its not. Its because the way the human mind works is to first feel anger, then remorse, then to heal AND FINALLY to forigve.

The rage at your parents is brief. Its a necessary stage. But it is TERRIFYING - because at our core we are still that child who is afraid - we are still that child who needs to belive they were besically good. But a HUGE part of us knows they did wrong. And by suppressing our desire to be angry at what they did wrong, because we are afraid to, we stay stuck.

You will never learn to love the child that you were UNTIL you ecpress your anger at your parents, grieve and THEN decide what to do next. This isnt 'maybe', this isnt opinion. Everrone is NOT different. The human osyche works on similar levels in all people - and decades of psychotherapy have shown that these are thes stages that must be gone through to reach freedom. And decades of psychotherapy recognise the ENORMOUS RESISTANCE AND FEAR, and so justification and rationalisation for not 'looking there' - that all patients go through.

If you have rage at your parents within thrapy, and you work it through and they never hear about it, and you heal, who has lost anything? This is what happens all the time in therapy. Overcoming the fear of questioning the parents - EVEN WITHIN THEIR OWN HEADS - is the first hurdle that EVERY emotional based therapist must overcome. It is step one.

Thats the hurdle you're at now wednesday. You probably hate me for saying it, but its true. You will not love that little girl in you until you do because there is a reservoir of self-loathing and shame stopping it. Only anger - at the right people - can break it open.

The question I would ask is this. If decades of emotions based therapists say this is necessary, have experience to prove it, have figures to prove it, (and they have a way to let you do it that means you dont actually have to CONFRONT your parents but lets you heal anyway), what exactly would stop you from wanting to do that? Remove JUST the "confronting internal pain / fear of disrespecting / incurring parental rejection or wrath" element. If that were an offer for eg an anti ageing treatment it would sound like an awesome deal wouldnt it? Its only the FEAR (of guilt, shame, rejetion) component that stops us.

Dont want to start a slanging match - Its just I have been exactly where you are many times over and it hurts to see others stuck in the same open prison that I was.

[hummm_mabbe]

Just to say

Sorry I am coming off so extreme. I am having to really power myself through this at the moment and so I might not be fully appreciating how hard this is for others to deal with. I am not trying to say that anyone isnt trying hard enough - I know how difficult even the tiniest advances are, and how important they are.

Huggles to all

Rossie McGoneABit Wibble

[bumblepipi]

Don't know why I am adding this but i need to type in time to the music. Will never have the love I needed from and Dad when i needed it but not so worried bout this as I realise they were fuckwits who didn't know how to handle emotions. My dad would explode and think up interesting punishments so I never forgot my lessons. My mum was the ultimate passive aggressor which I have managed to copy very well indeed. They try and make up for it I think but if my dad ever want's to come near near me I feel physically sick and my mum just grates on me. I know this is unkind but I don't actually like them very much. I was brought up without any form of religion but realise they had their own special brand : fear, aggression, guilt ,and self depreciation. Anyway when they fall into my sea I will strip their flesh from their bones give their eyeballs to the lobsters and seagulls, eat them and shit out a pearl or something.

[Pynn]

Hmm. Wanted just to say something (I'll feel stupid for it later)...

I don't have the energy to post new stuff here, though I really want to. With every new post made here I nod so hard that my head nearly falls off - I can relate to all of it sooo much! All of it makes so much sense to me! Every time I want to post, it turns into a big rant on how my lovely mom shouldn't have been a mother in the first place. (Then I end up deleting the entire post, because its just ranty and doesn't contribute anything to the topic :/ )

So, just wanted to say, that I read every single word, and wanted to give you all big *huggles*.

:hug2:

[wednesday]

Ross

I hear what you are saying, and don't get me wrong, I'm furious with my parents (they are now very old and near death) They were wrong and I think that people must be clear on that--for years and years i thought that it was still my fault for being so weak--it is only now that my psychologist has made me see it differently.

After you have seen that however, there has to be some resolution. I need to comfort myself.

I nead to be careful here of being totally unforgiving of my parents since I am a parent. I was a parent when I was really very ill and in hospital with this. I tried so hard to still make my children feel loved and looked after but the truth is, I wasn't able to care for them the way I should have.

My parents and possibly yours will have had their own problems just as we have. My Mum was certainly damaged by her upbringing.

Unending anger is damaging to yourself. I think we need to go through it and come out the other end of it-somehow not reliving it again and again. i think this is hard for people with bpd.

My pdoc says schema therapy is a branch of CBT.

[hummm_mabbe]

Ross

I hear what you are saying, and don't get me wrong, I'm furious with my parents (they are now very old and near death) They were wrong and I think that people must be clear on that--for years and years i thought that it was still my fault for being so weak--it is only now that my psychologist has made me see it differently.

After you have seen that however, there has to be some resolution. I need to comfort myself.

I nead to be careful here of being totally unforgiving of my parents since I am a parent. I was a parent when I was really very ill and in hospital with this. I tried so hard to still make my children feel loved and looked after but the truth is, I wasn't able to care for them the way I should have.

My parents and possibly yours will have had their own problems just as we have. My Mum was certainly damaged by her upbringing.

Unending anger is damaging to yourself. I think we need to go through it and come out the other end of it-somehow not reliving it again and again. i think this is hard for people with bpd.

My pdoc says schema therapy is a branch of CBT.

I can see what youre saying, but I hid behind that same excuse to myself for decades - my mum had a bad childhood, it wasnt her fault. It has taken me this long to see that SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN TO HAVE CHILDREN if she was not over it, or at least listened to the multiple signs and screams that should have alerted her that things were going WRONG. She ignored all of this, and she passed on the problem. Should I simply accept the deprivation that I suffered from her, simply because she was once hurt too? Surely then I become my mothers confidant, her supporter - in essence - HER parent. Doing what is right so that she does not have to feel that pain. Who said that a mother gives birth in order to have something to soothe and coddle her? You give birth to GIVE - not to receive. If a mother belives that having children will make everything ok, then she is living a narcissistic dream, and one which will create a child that hurts for the rest of its life.

I appreciate you are a mum too, and perhaps to accept that your parents wronged you, that there is no excuse for it, and that they deserve your anger, may make you afraid of what this means for your parenting of your own children. This is what has kept my mum stuck for her whole life - not dealing with it as it should be and so passing it on. I dont want to be rude but you are still hiding behind 'your mothers problems' in order to avoid facing the reality of what she did - and so stopping yourself grieving, stopping yourself getting better, and so stopping yourself from being able to do what is right by your children. The fact your parents are near death adds yet another layer of guilt - another powerful emotional reason and binding for not doing what you need to do. This will cause utter indignation in you I am sure, but as long as you go on protecting and idealising your mother behind the cloak of HER problems, forgetting that AS A MOTHER IT WAS HER DUTY TO PROTECT YOU FROM THEM - NOT PASS THEM ON - you will simply do the same thing to your own children. This is not my opinion, this is simple truth that has been observed again and again and again in the lives of people who come through therapy and out the other side. Is this easy? Not in the slightest! Its probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your life! But now its not just you - there are those who are dependent on you that NEED a mother who is at peace with her past, and who has released all that anger and shame at the RIGHT person.

Schema is not a 'branch' of CBT anymore than Formula 1 is a branch of go-karting. Schema therapy is utterly different, it needed to be because CBT cannot touch personality disorders and deep seated problems. Its a combination of psychodynamic, gestalt, attachment theory and others. CBT forms about 15% of it - your PDOC needs to do some research, much like many professionals who are still utterly unaware of it, even though it has been shown more effective for personality disorders than any therapy out there, including DBT.

Im sorry if I sound angry at you, that mght be because I am. If you hide behind your mothers issues then you will harm your chidren. That is the simple truth, no matter how determined you might be "to not repeat her mistakes". It happens at a subconscious level - not one where we make choices. It is kind of unfair of me because you happen to be using the same words my mother uses to excuse herself. I realise you are trying to get better, but you ARE hiding, and you need to make that last step, for the sake of your children.

I am anticipating a very angry reply, and I would say rightly so because I have not exactly been pleasant, where you may say something like how dare I question your parenting ability ... Im not. I am just trying to tell you how the cycle of abuse and neglect runs through families, whether we desire it or not. The only way to stop it is to face it - fully. Once that is done, you may move on. You are not bad or evil - but you ARE hiding.

Unending anger is the product of what my mother has put inside of me and I am now finally getting out, ridding myself of. By fully venting it it at the RIGHT TARGET, it ends. Its only unending as long as you bury it, or deflect it onto other (innocent but similar) targets. If I stop now, it will simply regrow. Telling me its damaging to myself is a bit like telling a man with a fork in his eye, but his hands tied behind his back, thats its damaging to his sight. He knows its there and wants it removed - but he has to be brave enough to let someone else cause him the pain of pulling on the thing - rather than staggering around with the thing wobbling in his eye socket and talking of what a harsh upbringing the man who stabbed him with it in the first place had.

If by this point you dont want to kill me, READ books by Alice Miller - the woman who has had more influence on shaping modern psychotherapy than any modern psychology author. Read what she has written about hiding behind our parents problems - the ones they shared with us to GUILT US into 'behaving'. Read how this is passed on, subconsciously, to our children, and their children ... and so on. The Drama of Being a Child and Thou shalt not be Aware are books that shock you and make for unpleasant reading - but will hopefully give you that last bit of courage to push through this very difficult stage in your therapy.

Good luck. I do mean that, even though I am sounding horrible...

[walker]

I understand and identify with so much of what you say,

I see the history of dysfunction repeating itself through generations -

BUT that will never end Ross.

OK so maybe your mum should never of had children - I dont know.

I was ill when I had my children - BUT I HAD NO IDEA THAT I WAS

No one had ever told me that crying all the time was depression, that hating myself was not normal, that feeling inferior to the whole damn world, was not how other people felt.

All I had ever wanted was to have children

I did not know I was sick

I did not know I could be damaging them

I didnt want to hurt them

My son is nearly 18, my daughter 20 and I have had a diagnosis for 4 weeks

All I ever wanted was for my children to be happier and more confident than me

Maybe I have screwed it up BIG TIME

I am sorry - if I have destroyed their lives

I just didnt know

Read Alice Miller 15 or so years ago

OK I will buy it again - but I remember how much it hit home

Believe me - it is not so easy to change the parenting patterns - esp when you thought the ones you were using were ok

Shit I am in such a mess

[hummm_mabbe]

I understand and identify with so much of what you say,

I see the history of dysfunction repeating itself through generations -

BUT that will never end Ross.

OK so maybe your mum should never of had children - I dont know.

I was ill when I had my children - BUT I HAD NO IDEA THAT I WAS

No one had ever told me that crying all the time was depression, that hating myself was not normal, that feeling inferior to the whole damn world, was not how other people felt.

All I had ever wanted was to have children

I did not know I was sick

I did not know I could be damaging them

I didnt want to hurt them

My son is nearly 18, my daughter 20 and I have had a diagnosis for 4 weeks

All I ever wanted was for my children to be happier and more confident than me

Maybe I have screwed it up BIG TIME

I am sorry - if I have destroyed their lives

I just didnt know

Read Alice Miller 15 or so years ago

OK I will buy it again - but I remember how much it hit home

Believe me - it is not so easy to change the parenting patterns - esp when you thought the ones you were using were ok

Shit I am in such a mess

Yes! You are a victim too! Im sorry that what im writing is hurtful, and perhaps I should not be saying it - but its a truth. Right now I find it very very hard to deny a truth simply because its painful - especially when life will simply do what it does whether I mention it or not.

Patterns change when emotions change. Behaviours shift the moment that those core, corrosive messages that were planted by our parents evaporate. I know this because I have felt this, and because it has been endlessly written about.

You feel stuck right now Walker, I know that. I am not saying you are choosing to be there - you are stuck behind a wall of pain that you did not create. I am not going to lie and say that this will have no effect on your children. It may, it may not, but my saying that will not change the outcome.

BUT - if you heal as you need to, there IS STILL TIME to change what has been and gone. There is still time to face up to it, without destroying yourself in the process, and saying "what was it that you needed that i didnt give you?" - and as the newly healthy adult that you will now be, instead of the hurt child that is (rightly) screaming out of you every minute of every day, you can soothe any wounds that may be there.

You are stuck in a tunnel and it feels ike no matter how far you run in any direction you never see any light. I KNOW this feeling - I was there not so long ago! Thats why I am so passionate now - because people CAN overcome it, it is not a fait accomplis, there IS hope - even though it feels as though the world is coming to an end.

I know Im unpopular right now but I stand by what I have said, because ultimately I know that happiness is what lies at the end of it. It just means going through the mother (pardon the pun) of all shitstorms before getting there. Its easier for me - I have no dependents, I am alone in this. I am sorry if I try to make it sound simple, but it is still ACHIEVABLE.

Thats just me - always hope, always belief, because even when I have felt like totally giving up something has always come along to take me that next step. Sometimes its necessary to make yourself unpopular to say something thats true - but painful.

[walker]

I know what you are saying is true, or true for me anyway

I do not hate you for saying it - it is something we must all face if we are truly honest with ourselves

However the mental torture is intense

Guilt and pain from the past - - - guilt and pain from the future

HURT FROM EVERYWHERE - ALL AROUND ME -

Not just what has been done to me, - but what I do to others , and

HELP ME - PLEASE - it is crushing in from all directions

[hummm_mabbe]

I know what you are saying is true, or true for me anyway

I do not hate you for saying it - it is something we must all face if we are truly honest with ourselves

However the mental torture is intense

Guilt and pain from the past - - - guilt and pain from the future

HURT FROM EVERYWHERE - ALL AROUND ME -

Not just what has been done to me, - but what I do to others , and

HELP ME - PLEASE - it is crushing in from all directions

It sounds like you are feeling overwhelmed again Missie W, and its horrid for you. i know you want realease, you want things to change, and you feel so terribly guilty and bad, even though you are not None of us can make instant changes, therapy isnt magical like that. It takes a long long time. That again is why its helpful to realise that even though we are responsible, we are not to blame. You have a life of this and you are doing whats necessary to try to change. Its totally understandable to want it to all go away now - we ALL want that. But we all know it wont - it will take a LONG time. Coming to terms with that is part of being able to heal - to be able to sit with the overwhelming emotions as they sweep over us.

I know I make recommendations and you arent able to make use of them, but I really think mindfulness meditation would help you. i could recommend a book - its mindfulness for schema - called Emotional Alchemy by Tara Bennett Goleman. Mindfulness helps you to sit and deal with overwhelming emotions like you are feeling and is very very good. All treatments for BPD have mindfulness elements - including DBT, Schema, STEPPS and TFT.

I wish i could do more than make suggestions Walkie, but I cant. **huggle**

[walker]

you have done what you can

I cant do this anymore

I will hide

I do not have your strength,

My daughter thinks people should get on with their lives and stop making a fuss

So do my parents and my husband

I am wrong in the place where I live

I am not a good person

You do not know me

I spend more energy trying to stay ill, than get well

I have spent 22 years ruining my relationship - filling it with poison - creating hurt everywhere

You are doing so well - I admire you - you WILL get there

I am not so sure

Sorry

[hummm_mabbe]

you have done what you can

I cant do this anymore

I will hide

I do not have your strength,

My daughter thinks people should get on with their lives and stop making a fuss

So do my parents and my husband

I am wrong in the place where I live

I am not a good person

You do not know me

I spend more energy trying to stay ill, than get well

I have spent 22 years ruining my relationship - filling it with poison - creating hurt everywhere

You are doing so well - I admire you - you WILL get there

I am not so sure

Sorry

Hugs, It'll come. You have already come a very long way, though part of you wont let you see it. You are braver and better than you give yourself credit for IMO - otherwise you would not be here.

Even though I have been horrid here, I still think that any mum who is trying to overcome her past is a good person, who wants whats right. Its just that the emotions are so hard to deal with that its easy to get stuck. I guess I tend to try to boot people out of the holes they get caught in where maybe some subtel oiling and squeaking is more appropriate .. i dunno ...

Sorry to wednesday too, I know I was harsh and you are trying with all your might too.

Huggle

[wednesday]

I can see what youre saying, but I hid behind that same excuse to myself for decades - my mum had a bad childhood, it wasnt her fault. It has taken me this long to see that SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN TO HAVE CHILDREN if she was not over it, or at least listened to the multiple signs and screams that should have alerted her that things were going WRONG. She ignored all of this, and she passed on the problem. Should I simply accept the deprivation that I suffered from her, simply because she was once hurt too? Surely then I become my mothers confidant, her supporter - in essence - HER parent. Doing what is right so that she does not have to feel that pain. Who said that a mother gives birth in order to have something to soothe and coddle her? You give birth to GIVE - not to receive. If a mother belives that having children will make everything ok, then she is living a narcissistic dream, and one which will create a child that hurts for the rest of its life.

I appreciate you are a mum too, and perhaps to accept that your parents wronged you, that there is no excuse for it, and that they deserve your anger, may make you afraid of what this means for your parenting of your own children. This is what has kept my mum stuck for her whole life - not dealing with it as it should be and so passing it on. I dont want to be rude but you are still hiding behind 'your mothers problems' in order to avoid facing the reality of what she did - and so stopping yourself grieving, stopping yourself getting better, and so stopping yourself from being able to do what is right by your children. The fact your parents are near death adds yet another layer of guilt - another powerful emotional reason and binding for not doing what you need to do. This will cause utter indignation in you I am sure, but as long as you go on protecting and idealising your mother behind the cloak of HER problems, forgetting that AS A MOTHER IT WAS HER DUTY TO PROTECT YOU FROM THEM - NOT PASS THEM ON - you will simply do the same thing to your own children. This is not my opinion, this is simple truth that has been observed again and again and again in the lives of people who come through therapy and out the other side. Is this easy? Not in the slightest! Its probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your life! But now its not just you - there are those who are dependent on you that NEED a mother who is at peace with her past, and who has released all that anger and shame at the RIGHT person.

Ross,

I've thought alot about what you have said. First-there is a part that I do take some offence with. My children are great. They do not show the signs of insecurity and unhappiness that were so evident in me and I do not believe that I am passing this on the them. However, there have been times when I have been so depressed that I have been unavailable to them emotionally. I know that for them , the best thing I can do is get well. Like Walker, I did not know I had an illness before I had kids and i worked so hard to make things 'perfect' for them , that ultimately it resulted in my breakdown. For the fact is , you can only be a good enough parent and you cannot protect your children from all illness, unkindness and difficult times-and if you try, it only gets worse for them. I just hope my children can forgive the mistakes that I will inevitably make with them and the mistakes I have already made.

I was very well when I decided to become a parent and yet here I am, an ill parent. A parent with a mental illness. A parent with a past of ODs and scars. I hope so much that the compassion and love that I show to my children now will help them to feel compassion and not shame for me when they become teenagers. There are no perfect parents, we all come with baggage.

I think it is absolutely vital that we see we were in no way to blame for the fact that we came to the conclusion as young children that we were in some way 'not good enough' and we were not loved for who we were.

I think it is vital that we start to care about and nurture the 'inner child' and stop piling on the self critisism that we were trained to.

Its obvious from what has been said that for many here, the stage of being angry has to be gone through. I agree that repressed anger has to be acknowledged. I've been through so many years of it already, I'm sick of it. Hating my parents didn't make me love or understand myself. I just had enough hatred for everyone.

IN the end, no matter how angry we are with them-THEY WILL NOT CHANGE- hardly any seem to say they are sorry, hardly any even admit they did something wrong. Where then do you put this anger? In the end there is no resolution for it. They see the world differently from us.

As far as I see it, at some point, you have to move on from anger. It is a dead end.