Hearing Voices

[hoodbran1]

Thanks so much for your input everybody...it's give me so much food for thought. I also wonder...hoodbran...if some of the voices are from past life traumas...voices I knew in past lives as some of thm are American and I was an American in a past life and had a traumaic death. It's odd as some of my voices are British some American...I know what they are on about sometimes and other times I don't. I have great admiration for Jung so can wholly relate to how frustrating it is when western psychology dissses philosiphies from other cultures, from so cacled uncivilised races.

Yes, i certainly doubt they are from any chemical imbalance, they could be from a number of sources, they could represent archetypal facets of your ego (personality) - the so-called evil passions which, like narcotic drugs, enslave and bind mankind to existence in a fabricated western view of the world: anger, lust, stupidity, pride or egoism, jealousy, and control-power, they could represent positive beneficial aspects of yourself, like times when the female voice suggests helpful comments, your innocence and faith. One thing for sure is you are finely tuned to experience this, just dont let worldly suggestions tell you they are a terrible side effect of an illness... Remember, BPD is not exactly a biological illness, it's conceptual & learned and if you suspend your concepts and concentrate on yourself you will begin to see your true nature and expand your understanding of why we experience voices.

I want to add also that it is true we are living in nonduality NOT duality (where psychology gets away with the mind/body issue).

May I suggest some reading on Dzogchen - you could call it meditation, or a course of understanding, either way it will teach you what you wont learn from any UK psychology and it's a great intro to understanding various other psychologies.

Note also that when a person endures loss of ego, that is utter serverance of their personailty in any circumstance (schizophrenia, abuse, neglect, drugs etc) it will undoubtedly lead to experiences of voices, ESP, almost psychic phenomena, visual and otherwise hallucinations, I know this to be true in the case of PD, DID mainly (formerly multiple personalilty disorder) and switching between ego's in BPD - either a person returns from ego death illuminated or psychotic, these extremes can be met in a middle way and you are left 'normal'; the circumstances surrounding the return to the personality determines on what level or state you are left with.

Try tonight sitting in a comfy position eyes closed devoid of external stimulus (right before bed) and try to attain a level of awareness that does not bother you; if a thought comes acknowledge it but dont chase it let it go, the same for emotional feelings and a sound, what you want to do is feel the here and now and realise that everything you experience is a result of your mind only because only you can experience the world; hey, some folk say that coming back from ego death is dying and being reborn, The ultimate goal of many religious faiths and doctrines - except you have your current life/body & illumination and realize you have broken the life/death cycle, this so coincides with your topic: it's esoteric and non-judgmental. When a child hides in a place not attached to his body during abuse you could call it ego death, this is where voices, esp, premonitions, all knowledge comes from and exactly the place Carl Jung entertained as he tried to absorb the Tibetan Book of the Dead (of which is the source of enlightenment) - the trick here is our ego has a tight hold and thus we remain bound to the wheel of life and sketchy explanations of our symptoms that do not match our experiences, here i suggest something that will.

[Warrior Princess]

Hi Hummmm Maybe,

If you re read my post, I did not actually say that I believed for a fact that it was caused by our own voice box, merely that this is what a Psychologist recently told me. I've had to consider what she said and try to keep some what open minded about it. Thanks for the info you gave about the study. It's somewhat put my mind at ease.

I havn't expressed in any detail what my true views are so here goes

I believe the voices are from the spirit world. of course, if I say that to any psyciatrist, or any "non spiritual" person I just get laughed at. My experience with the voices is that they were demonic. I started hearing mine at a time of great depression. I felt the presences before I heard them. I felt things touching me, holding me down to the bed. I felt the presence of an angry something in the room. I felt something grasping my arm tightly or choking me around the neck. I also had many nightmares that went along with all this and THEN the voices came when I tried to communicate with the "presence" to find out what it was.

I also heard more than voices alone. I heard glass smashing and things breaking, loud crashes, thumps etc. Tires screeching sometimes. None of those things could have been created by my voice box because even when I try to make these sounds they don't sound real.

To be honest when the psychologist told me it was my own voice box I felt offended, even scared! to me, if the voices weren't what I had deduced they were, then I could no longer maintain the silence. It helps to know that what she said was based on limited research. That's very typical of scientists. They publish a lot of things as fact that are based on maybe's.

Sounds crazy I know but that's just my experience with it all.

WP

[hoodbran1]

WP look at my post above, indeed i also believe they manifest from another 'place' that humans are apart from due to biology, but we are 'connected' some of us more than others... Only an understanding will help us on our way:)

-H

[PanickyPolly]

I tried talking to my voices last night and this morning but all I'm geting is nonsensical replies. One of them sounded like my um one sounded like my nan but others sounded strange to me. Odd experience to try to speak to them.

[hummm_mabbe]

I tried talking to my voices last night and this morning but all I'm geting is nonsensical replies. One of them sounded like my um one sounded like my nan but others sounded strange to me. Odd experience to try to speak to them.

Interesting that some of them should be figures from your past when you try to understand them?

That was a courageous thing to do. As far as I understand it, if you can make companions of other people who have actually become empowered by their voices and share with them in the comfort of a group, your voices will improve greatly as well as your own wellbeing.

You will find that many people have a spitritual explanation for their voices, and I think there is real value in this - there are many things that the cold hard world of science can never understand. Still, the focus of some of the voices from the past may be telling you something. In BPD we have 'modes' - kind of a set of feelings and behaviours that we flip between. One mode can be a happy little child, and another can be the Punitive Parent, a mean sounding and feeling mode. If you are hearing your mum and nan in a punitive way, as they may have been when you were little, then perhaps you have discovered your 'punitive parent' voice? The treatment of BPD aims to break down and destroy the punitive parent mode and the corrosive effect it has on the mind. If your voices have this tone, then a therapists prize would be to fight what they are saying and what created them.

Im not gonna say any more on the meds issue I thinkie ....

Ross

[hoodbran1]

In BPD we have 'modes' - kind of a set of feelings and behaviours that we flip between. One mode can be a happy little child, and another can be the Punitive Parent, a mean sounding and feeling mode. If you are hearing your mum and nan in a punitive way, as they may have been when you were little, then perhaps you have discovered your 'punitive parent' voice? The treatment of BPD aims to break down and destroy the punitive parent mode and the corrosive effect it has on the mind. If your voices have this tone, then a therapists prize would be to fight what they are saying and what created them.

Ross

Thats a valid point, if you trace back this ego states theory it all begins in childhood and the failure of sponsorship between these states, just as babies have no personality they have states, happy, angry, tired, hungry etc - as you mentioned - it's during the sponsorship or integration of these that builds a personality, the great example: "Mommy I fell and now it hurts" - she replies "It's OK sweetie, you were OK a moment ago and reassuringly you will be OK soon" if this is underdeveloped or interrupted as in abuse and neglect we as adult BPD'ers experience these same states as we do not have a whole personality as per say someone who grew up with the Roses. - Therefore Therapy aims to help integration by unstitching old methods and training the mind to practise these, at the same time subjective therapy (extinguishing modes) meds only work for the undiagnosed/newly diagnosed - for those well in recovery or have a beneficial sense of self the main theme (in my therapy anyway) is how i cope in any situation and trying to find a middle ground and to learn self soothing (self integration) - hypothetically creating a new me, the same rules only less switching and mental allergic reactions.

I agree wholly with you Ross and the more folk who learn that ego's do exist to the degree you mention, the better they will start to understand (that was a general statement not directed to anybody) i have experienced the punitive parent and especially vulnerable child before, many times; these are states that have entirely different morality codes too and i know this and i also know that i can have hallucinations in any state.

What i am suggesting is this; I think BPD comes with an understanding which is more deeper and more spiritual than even schizophrenia and regular living (non diagnosed or diagnosed fit) since we have these experiences of polarity and internal morality code conflicts, i think it lays the path open for us to become susceptible to experience our already fragmented mind and really consider what the mind is subjective of, that is the truth, the 'I'... I'm in danger of losing focus and dont wanna sound religious or anything, my point to adding to this thread relates to a very deep question PP asked and in my best ability i attempt to answer it, i could be wrong... Excellent Point!

Personality at it's foundation is a game our ego's play on us and my, yes we hurt ourselves! realize that there is more to the reality you see, hear, smell, and feel and you too can break free of the bondage created.

To win the 'prize' and fight them is to deny yourself what you feel and they cant tell you (PP you said yourself your therapist did not know the source) - of course, western psychology does not know how voices come about, i've spoken about one that does... Shall we stay biased and half heartedly 'do' therapy? or seek ourselves and gain true therapeutic meaning? - In terms i can only describe as this: Stay toward the spiritual aspect and you will near this truth. For those who think the word 'Spiritual[ality]' is fluffed up, then if you research you will find Quantum Physics is the scientific study of sub-atomic particles and energy, INCLUDING the processes of the mind; many great examples lie in the work of Schroedinger and such which leads to ultimate questions and thereby giving substantiality to spirituality and understanding in what your mind can do to your daily living; as if having BPD isnt already enough!!!

Thanks for letting me express myself here, it's helping me and i hope i help others.

[lostinme]

this is such an interesting read.. ive never had constant long term voices, just random ones sometimes, and general whispers.. i do get hallucinations tho, and i was in psychosis for a while, ive often wondered where the places i was in my psychosis came from, where the hallucinations and the thoughts and the dillusions stemmed from because they were so far from reality its unbelievable, but i do believe they must come from somewhere and they must be linked to something in my life or even in my head.

i found the mode thing interesting too because i knew we had mood instability, but i do flip between 3 year old little girl (fairys sparkles and everything pink and clapping and singing lalala..clapping my hands etc), to middle aged women listenin to radio 4 to rebellious teenager, to tantrummy child to 30 year old mum, to old lady.. i have been told i have elements of did, but its interesting it could be modes.

thankyou hmm maybe, i love knowledge, so youve made my day by giving me something to read which is very intellectually written and well put :)

[hoodbran1]

Here's a good e-book to read for anyone interested in this topic.

The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are By Alan Watts.

The_Book_on_The_Taboo_against_knowing_who_you_are.pdf

[wednesday]

everybody flips between different 'modes'

Its just that in bpd, they can become very distinct

[PanickyPolly]

OK I wrote a massive post and it got wiped off...

might try again some other time as that took me a while.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo Missie Hoodbran

To win the 'prize' and fight them is to deny yourself what you feel and they cant tell you

Just wanted to clear a thingie up. I think I made something sound overly simple when its not ...

When I was talking about the prize of beating the punitive parent, I didn't mean blocking out all bad thoughts noo nooo that would be wrong diddly wrong. I wasn't really thinking of 'voices' when I wrote that, I meant the feeling / behaving mode of the PP mode in BPD As you say, if you ignored your voices that would cutting off a big part of yourself. I have found exactly what you said in schema - that I am becoming more aware of ALL my feelings and emotions, and that becoming aware of my modes, including the nasty parent one, I can listen to what my mind is trying to tell me. The parent mode has something important to say because its what's causing all the ick in my heart all the time, and so I have to understand it and listen to it so i know what its saying about me and to me. I see my modes as being like the voices, except they don't actually 'say' things - they talk to me through how I feel. If I sit and write, they get a voice then, but I don't hear them, like 'hearing voices' hear them.

The prollem is that the punitive parent is unreasonable - totally. Thats is the mode that makes me want to hurt myself, cut myself, do bad things to myself or others. In this way, it has nothing of use to give me. I have to look it in the face and accept its there and understand why its there, but in the long term it has no place inside me. That is why I called it a 'prize' - its the PP mode that drives all the worst bits of bippidee and at first it is very very strong. It has to be given a voice and allowed to say what it needs to say, or it just gets buried and stronger. But with A LOT of time, that mode becomes weaker as the Little Rossie mode starts to realise "oo people actually like me, people can actually make me feel better, people want to listen to me" and all this stuff is coming gradually from my nice therapist. The PP modes' words of "its all your fault you cant be heard, if you werent so demanding / sensitive / stupid / selfish then you would be happy, you snivelling little fuck" (sorry thats what mine says to me) start to lose their power because they were never true - they are just the bad words that my mum, dad, sister, extended family, my bullies etc all used to feed me with. And what value are the words of a bully? So I said it wrong - its not about blocking it out - its about letting it vent and vent and vent until it loses its power, and then the little chid mode can go "yay!! I am FREEEEE!!"

So thats kinna what I meant, sorry if I oversimplified

Rossie

[hummm_mabbe]

OK I wrote a massive post and it got wiped off...

might try again some other time as that took me a while.

Ohh nooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Poor post!!

And poor polly

Oh hey I have been abbreviating the Punitive Parent mode to "PP" - I hope you didn't think I was talking about you?

Ross

[PanickyPolly]

I can't post long topics! Please PM me if you want to know what I had to say

[hoodbran1]

So thats kinna what I meant, sorry if I oversimplified

Naw no worries, no worries! coming to the truth is by thesis and anti thesis; the model that DBT is built upon, dialectical is to find the truth....

OP; im curious now to what you tried to write... maybe write it in notepad first then copy/paste it here?

[PanickyPolly]

what I was trying to say first of all was thanks very much for all your posts I'm really glad I started this thread. Also this is making me think a lot of Jungs theories and his inclinations towards shamanism and the fragmented self. As the shamans believe in different worlds and the different fragmnted parts of us that broke away due to trauma can live in different worlds I wondered if this ight go soe way to explain voices. I believe is was Einsitin who said the universe cannot exist without mind entering into it... that makes me think if we an co exist outside ourselves. Also Jung of course spoke about the universal conciousness and maybe that might explain voices to some degree. Just my thoughts anywy.

[PanickyPolly]

OK so the post that took days to get up there finally worked and noone said anything :blink:

[hoodbran1]

Sorry! I did read your post and I was just busy to reply... I think you're on the right track -- as my therapist put it this morning - unless I am devoted to ideas of the collective conscious it could be like pornography for the spirit - it helps ever so much to try and compartmentalize and find comfort in understanding a basic fundamental in a chaotic world, i find great comfort it... We (my therapist and I) had a deep talk about ego splitting, separation and such and i said that i think we are all delusional, even my therapist but what delusion you sign up for is what you have... The awareness in a Man is the same as a Woman but the awareness itself has no gender; That's the first delusion! - Is it not the awareness that gives us 'things to do' ? afterall a personality alone cannot run a body; the personality has no play in autonomous functions (breathing/heart beat/temp regulation) - This ego we strive to compile and run by has many levels and it's hard to unstitch it.

We went on to talk about Christian practices and the idea of being re-born as in laying on of hands in a church; this I told him was a metaphor taken literally, I said to my T that to be reborn is to be removed from your personality, the ego and experience true awareness; this ties in to my abuse history as I went thru utter ego removal when it happened so being reborn for me was a confused world...

So yes, if the gates to awareness are open then it is perfectly possible and plausibe for

A: The religious the 'Hear God' and

B: The 'Ill' to 'Hear Voices' - Why not?

We are one, we are a single delusional consciousness talking to itself thru humans, can't find god? god talks to himself, we are one!