Dependent Personality

[rebeccaborderline]

Hi Walker,

Please dont beat yourself up about this label.

Ive been officially "BPD" for years now, with undiagnosed probs for years before that. One BPD criterion they said I dont have is the "fear of loss, being left".

Actually I know myself better than they do, and a have a very deep terror of being left. The medical profession has taken the place of the family I always wanted, but who in reality reject me utterly.

So I have fallen in needy love with my key nurses in hosp; my shrink; my T...the list goes on. My sexuality has changed to fit in with the MH person who I want to love me, and love so much.

But none of them know about my utter dependency on their kindness, goodwill, an hello in the corridor...I am crippled when they seem abrupt or brusque. They dont know about this side of me because exposing it is my last taboo. Ever there, the fear of rejection if I indicate in the slightest way that I care about them.

A constant theme therefore has been confused MH people, whom I have previously been close to, wondering why I have suddenly (and lastingly) become cold, and emotionally closed to them. Its because I know they will leave me. I cannot afford for them to know how much I care. And I have to try and close that gaping wound in advance, before they leave me. Others react in the opposite way, by clinging. But it is the same-needing them.

Sorry, Ive made this all about me now. Im just trying to say; I understand your self-disgust about needing people, I feel it too. But our reactions are not normal; needing people is a normal human thing-feeling bad about it, is what magnifies it and skews it and distorts it. Trying to learn that is the key.

reb

xx

[walker]

They can never get through to you because it seems you feel better for a moment - because you have had the reassurance of contact and advice - but soon that need for more comes back.

perhaps thats why as soon as i reach out for help - if someone actually 'hears' me - i begin to feel calmer

then all the 'your not ill at all ' voices kick straight in and start beating me

[foreverborderline]

" If I could leave myself - I would "

I so feel like this , believe me

[hummm_mabbe]

They can never get through to you because it seems you feel better for a moment - because you have had the reassurance of contact and advice - but soon that need for more comes back.

perhaps thats why as soon as i reach out for help - if someone actually 'hears' me - i begin to feel calmer

then all the 'your not ill at all ' voices kick straight in and start beating me

Yes very possibly. Its a bit like people that worry a lot. They tend to feel that they MUST worry all the time, and in fact when they play out scenarios in their head and go through the "what ifs", they may well feel a sense of relief if they strike on a solution, in their mind, that seems to work. "The magic of worrying" is that 'as long as I worry, things are les likely to go wrong' and so it becomes obsessive. But as soon as that worry is complete, a new one comes along, and because it gets rewarded sometimes with relief, the vicious cycle remaions.

This process may happen inside the person, and their own solutions they generate may or may not soothe them. Or the solutions need to come from outside -like in reassurance seeking. This is a classic worrier approach, and worriers also tend to be people with dependence and vulnerability schemas. By coming online and seeking reassurnace, its like you are externalising a worry. But as soon as you feel better, a new worry comes along for you. If your circumstances were different, you would perhaps have people around you at home who could always be that strong, wise person you need. You would feel better - but you would STILL be under the sway of your dependence. You would still feel stuck and afraid of the world. As it is, you are chasing that reassurance and not getting it. The biggest problem with dependence and vulnerability is sadly that it fatigues others - they cannot keep up with the new worries and need that is constantly generated and though they love you, begin to feel defeated and helpless.

What you are actually needing is a sense of personal competence as well as a right to have needs and feelings, because this inner fortitude would make you feel enabled and powerful. If you always ask others to tell you what to do, what to think, and seek that reassurance, you never get to develop real skills that you feel you can rely on. Yes you need someone there who can make you feel safe and supported, but if they give you too mush support and reassurnace you will give into your dependence and want to avoid any kind of change - much like happened with James. Another complication though is that you feel that you have no right to express needs and feelings, and that you are bad for doing so. THAT is a BPD trait, and its another difficulty. Again you need to be systematically almost forced to express what you want and need, and be encouraged in your independent seeking of it. You need what Bowlby would call the "secure base" - a strong base that will encourage you to leave the nest emotionally speaking and exlore, but at the same time be there when you actually fall. Part of the distinction for you will be between what is a real fall, and what is panic, worry or self punishment. At first this will feel like you are being denied and deprived, because satisfaction of that external reassurance has become your surrigate for the deeper human needs you have. It will take time for your mind and body to see that what it is actually craving is independence and the empowerment to actively seek and satisfy your needs.

You need a therapist who will be there for you, validate and encourage, but who is prepared to PUSH you to actually develop skills and confidence in those skills, to challenge things like agoraphobia and worry. Balancing the guidance with the independence is key, because too little connection and you will feel neglected or judged, and too much connection and you will fall back onto dependence. You are genuinely stuck between a rock and a hard place, and you have the added problem of the punishing voice - a part of you which leads to severe depression.

I know that suggesting you do things is not what you want. You need something that takes away the panic quickly, only to give way to another panic. Being told to try x y and z may even feel uncaring and invalidating - but THIS is part of your schema activating. Its that sense that you deserve it, because you have been so systematically denied so many other things. You may even feel a sense of "why should I?" when someone suggests you do something practical. What i would suggest is to go and read the dependence, emotional deprivation and vulnerability chapters in reinventing your life again. Dont just scan it, but actually stop to see what emotions come up for you. Note feelings of sadness or anger - why are those feelings there? Is there a deeper truth that those emotions are trying to tell you, but you may not want to hear? You need to begin to give up so much reliance on external validation and reassurance. A little of both is good, and your drive for it may reflect a genuine lack of it in your life, but it needs to be tempered with a real self belief that only positively reinforced experience can give - only this way can you feel a real inner sense of safety.

As with DBT it is accepting a paradox: "I accept that right now I feel horrible. I want validation, I want to be heard, I want someone strong and wise to make me feel better and tell me what to do. But I also understand that only I can make changes, only I can make myself take action and so gain confidence from that action"

[hummm_mabbe]

Reading that back, what I have said there is NOT what happend with James, if Im right? It seemed more that you felt he did not understand you or was too focused on solutions, and that you had a need for more reassurance perhaps?

If he had been very strict with you, and MADE you do the exercises, how do you think you would have felt?

Pressured? Resentful? Ignored? Angry? Afraid?

These feelings will tell you something about your attitude to becoming independent. What does the idea of being able to function alone make you feel like?

[walker]

hmmm intresting

yes, when James tried to 'make' me do things i probably felt all those things

BUT

i also know i felt lost with him, like i had no direction, and nor did he,

there was a need for him to be more directive, even though i resisted it and resented it whenever he tried

the person you are describing , by the way, is also my mum - intensely - especially the worrying - she has had broken nights for decades, still worrying over us

her and dad, are both totally indecisive, and spent my childhood worrying and arguing about everything

BUT - she woudl NOT turn to anyone else for help - no no no she is totally 'indepndent' in her dependency and I have always been DEEPLY condemned and distrusted for my need to seek out the support of others

She HATES me for it

little wonder i have probs when the words 'do you think you can' are constantly ringing through my damn head

whenever, whatever I have achieved in my life has been when i was able to stifle those words, when I felt strong enough to shut them away

but they grow louder as I weaken

the person you know here, is not the person I have always been

i used to be confident travelling on trains, enjoyed the freedom of not being dependent on hub, i used to enjoy walking out of the door at 7 each morning and getting away from him

although

doing my OWN thing has always been a struggle, ans a sense of great guilt , doubt , shame even

Hub is totally like mum and dad

he wavs me aside and doubts my ability in things, and then whenever i was deeply depressed - would stand in front of me with his arms folded telling me to stop making a fuss and get on with it - when all i was crying out for was the physical contact of a hug and some reassurance

yeah i could go on but cant be bothered - you have heard so much of it

i am very very dpendent

but he is also dependent on me in many ways

since i have been ill, i have regressed and become passive and dependent and needy

but i detest myself for it

and the worst thing

feeling so bad about it

and feeling like there is no one else in the world who is the same,

seeing it in others, yet watching them deny it, leaving me alone in my useless dependent HELL

the self loathing and hatred and need for constant punishment over this is SO SO SO intense

(the lead up to my leaving work was 2 years of working with someone who was controlling and dismissive, like hub, who dismissed my ideas, and who never affirmed me

i got told off for not planning with her but whenever I was in the same room with her it was as though i could hardly breath, couldnt concentrate, and indeed , in the end could not gather my thoughts at all, in her presence - i think i was in a constant state of dissociation around her

she was a major trigger to me - i was constantly driven to need her acnowledgment, but it never came - either she took control, or whatever i had planned , she would dismiss as irrelevant, or wrong, or impossible, or just not worth doing

shit it triggers me even thinking about how bad i felt in that place

i was a broken person)

strange, when it came to planning christmas shows, or concerts, i would go it alone, get utterly overwhelmed, but do most of the work alone cos i neverknew who to trust or ask for help

it exhausted me every year, but they were the best things i ever did there,

shit i f*cking hate my life

hate me

hate what i am and what i have become

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi walkie T

It sounds, as I said, that you need a very precise combination of qualities in a therapist. For me, the relationship with my T is without a doubt the single most important aspect of recovery. When I made my astounding changes back in 2003 and basically became a different person, I realise now that my T had this total calm confidence, but that he would basically always push. I have a tendency to ramble (you may have noticed) and he would just calmly talk over me. It never made me angry, because I knew that he was doing what was best for me.

And this is crucial - if I detect even a hint of weakness or defensiveness in someone, I cannot trust them. My experience from childhood is that when someone "sets limits" on me, they are doing it in their own interest, and not mine. It is about control and because of this, my needs are never met. With my first T, I felt implicitly that he was both strong AND had my best wishes in mind. He wasnt going to be pushed around and I respected him, because he respected me. Its like strength AND compassion, and its a characteristic that to my mind is very rare, but this is only such a problem for me because my sense of deprivation, mistrust and subjugation are so strong.

James does not sound like he was strong - it sounds like he SOMETIMES tried to lay down the law, but was not comortable doing so, and this may have lead part of you to lack faith in him, especially if that lack of faith also meant you felt he could turn on you or did not really have your best interestes at heart.

With my current T, it has been a long process of actually realising that all these things are necessary for me. It is only recently that I have understood WHY my old T was an instant fit for me. Even though it has been frustrating, taking the time to BUILD a relationship with my current T as opposed to it just being magically right, it does mean that I have been able to understand myself and my needs in a way that I never did before. It has made me realise that once you understans what you need, you can ask for it, and once its out in the open it doesnt hold this magical power over you.

When people give in to reassuring you, and telling you that you are not all the bad things you say you are, they feel like they are doing the right thing for you. It feels mean not to try to say nice things. But in fact the more you tell us all how shit you are, and the more people tell you that you arent, the more helpless you become. I want you to be able to break that helplnessness, and that is why I do not respond when you talk that way. I understand that it will make you feel better for a few moments at best, only to be replaced by a bigger and more powerful self attack.

You honestly are the only one that can make any changes, but being told that feels like an abandonment or being deprived. Learning to sit with that sense of deprivation and desperation, such as DBT would teach you, is going to be important. Learning to tolerate the distress of those thoughts and prevnting yourself from seeking reassurance. Using some method (such as the one outlined in Reinventing Your Life) for systematically pushing yourself to practice pushing your own boundaries. But also, being able to STOP reassurnace seeking in therapy or on here, and instead understanding, and seeking the REAL needs that are missing for you.

Me saying "youre not bad, youre lovely; Youre not shit, its just the illness" will not meet your core needs, it will momentarily reassure you. Even though I may feel Im being nice, I actually CURSE you to stay the same, to stay stuck.

When a oarent is overprotective or stfling of a child, they belive they are acting in a loving way. But in fact they are acting to try to soothe THEIR OWN anxiety. It is not love to suffocate a childs autonomy and keep them locked away from experiences that would actually help them grow, and it is especially not love to allow them to belive they are incapable of fending for themselves. It FEELS like love, it may even LOOK like love - but it is a subtle, insidious form of damage that comes up later in the form of anxiety, agoraphobia, self doubt, worry. Of course the situation in your life may trigger different schemas to come out. Perhaps a change in a job, a crack in a relationship, children moving away, contact with the family of origin - any one of these things can cause the resurfacing of a schema in a way that may have been dormant for some time.

As long as you take no action, and instead only come here for reassurance and to attack yourself, you WILL stay stuck. I have not been suggesting therapy simply because I dont care, or because I think its some throwaway panacea. I have been suggesting it because I firmly believe its what you need. Yes its hard for you to go on trains - but I cant help wondering if the reason you are so unable to take up with that new therapist is perhaps because you feel deprived, coerced and misunderstood, but the moment you try to express it, you get punished from within. I am a pushy git. I often come across as critical, arrogant or angry - those are MY problems and flaws. Please do not let those flaws in my character make you want to fight back by doing nothing to help yourself. Dont let those times when people seem critical fuel that inner voice that tells you that you are so bad.

You have to say to that inner voice "FUCK YOU. I know you arent going to shut up, but you know what? I am going to do this FOR ME, because I want to. I dont give a flying shit what you think, you can throw what you want. Youd better have a damn good aim because Im going to be a moving target now, but I dont care. I am going to take some action for myself. I want to become independent, but I also deserve to have my needs met. I am not sacrificing myself anymore, no matter how much you tell me I dont desrve it. And to that part of me "Angry T" that feels deprived and wanting to rebel, and to stay still, I say I know you feel deprived. I know it hurts - but by digging in our heels we just stay stuck in the same mess. It makes people who want to help us walk away out of frustration and helplessness, even though they love us. We cannot solve this problem with the same thinking that created it!"

[Crocus]

Lots of people with mental health problems, or in fact any disability including phsyical issues often have to be dependant on others. I know that me and my partner are pretty much codependant of one another.

[walker]

thanks sweet

well ross is right

but i have known that for months

longer, probably

i know I have to do it

i know i need the support of a good T,

i know it pisses people off and is a vicious circle

i also know i have broken out of it before - have enjoyed far far more independence (at a price) but have never truly been different

i detest it, absolutley

i know something will break, sooner or later

indeed this is prob the deepest i have ever sunk

i have watched it happen, let it happen, not stopped it happening

i have f*cked my own life up, i know

and yes, sometimes i stop posting, stop talking on here, and when i do everyone can breath a big sigh of relief

but i will still come here and dump my shit and pour my heart out

just as many many others do, also

I am not the only dependent person on this forum but i feel isolated and hated

that is NOT an attack on you, Ross, - it is the inevitable outcome of my vile behaviour

I KNOW WHAT I SHOULD DO

I DONT KNOW WHEN OR IF I WILL DO IT

(may i also add, - doesnt matter)

[hummm_mabbe]

Are you feeling angry and put upon?

[hummm_mabbe]

The reason I think that there might be a bit of resentment and a sense of drpivation is this:

but i will still come here and dump my shit and pour my heart out

just as many many others do, also

I am not the only dependent person on this forum but i feel isolated and hated

There is almost a sense that you are saying "but I DESERVE to be dependent! Why is it ok for others to be that way and not me?". I think that is why you will not go to therapy - you are feeling deprived and denied and the only form of protest you have is to frustrate attempts to coerce you into seeking help. You are demanding that others give you what you feel entitled to as compensation for what you have been so denied all these years.

It is truly testament to how disempowered your family have made you, that the only form of control you have is to deliberately hurt yourself as means of getting back at others.

[Crocus]

There is a difference between feeling you deserve some support and compassion to feeling you deserve to be dependant.

[walker]

VERY

but not against you

I can see clearly what you say is right

and i guess it is OUR conversation, not anyone elses

but right now

i feel like i am the only person in the whole damn world - who gets negative gain from this forum - who uses it for support, but allows it to help her stay sick

yet I know that cant be true

and i see it all around me on here

it is a holding place - a safe place - where i can hide

and yes they - the voices - mum dad, hub - all saying get back to work , stop sitting around, do something,

Jeeez - they are so damn loud and I know they are right

and what u say and what they say -- gets entwined and tangled and so does the whole T / meds thing

SHIT

they are just wrapping round into a tight ball being hurled against me

i am trying so hard to seperate them

you are not them - T and meds is not work and

it is so so hard as they are attacking me from all sides

I am sorry Ross

I know you want good things for me

i know that but they are cruel and say nobody cares and i dont matter

i will stop

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi sweet

I can see that my words are going to seem they lack compassion. That is not what I am trying to communicate.

Walker has been stuck in this pattern for over a year, and its heartbreaking to see it. She does deserve compassion and understanding, and she does get that. Empathy and concern are of prime importance.

But yet, something stops her from being able to take the steps she needs to make changes - it is a very big barrier, and one unique to her. Compassion is the staple of therapy - but sometimes, so is the willingmess to push someone. A form of "tough love" - it recognises that for some people, compassion keeps them stuck, and with dependence issues this is the CORE problem. I am trying to do here exactly what someone treating dependency would do - and the reason its hard is because it LOOKS cruel.

If as a result of my words, walker went and got the therapy she has not been able to take up, and became strong, independent, able to get what she wants, and felt empowered and happy, would that ot have been compassion?

In treating dependence, over reliance on sympthay and concern leads to the person becoming stuck - and that agun is exactly what happened to Walker last year in therapy. We have shared many replies to one another, and though she thinks I and everyone else hates her, this is not the case. I too have got stuck in therapy, and only by actually being pushed and sometimes had to feel negative feelings have I progressed. In some situtions, its only when a person has to face the thing that most scares them, that they can become free, and as lon as you only offer a safe, warm refuge they will always come back to it.

I know that I am trying to act in a way that is helpful, and realise that it does not match with what others would see as compassion. It may well be that I will have to live with others being angry at me for that.

[walker]

i am certainly NOT ssaying i deserve to be dependent

i detest it

i am bitterly ashamed of it

what i am saying

is I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO DOES IT

yet i feel like i am

[walker]

i am NOT angry with you ross

not in any way whatsover

i am angry with me

[hummm_mabbe]

Missie T

Even if you were angry with me, it would be ok. You have every reason to have BUCKETS of anger stored up inside, because this has been done to you for so long.

I am pushing you, and I am seeming unsympathetic. I am not - I KNOW how much it hurts, and I know what its like to feel so utterly stuck. I know what its like to feel angry at people that dont understand and suggest things that seem simple to them, but are impossible for me.

I would not blame you for feeling angry at me at all - but the thing I would hpe is that that anger drives you to feel "you know what? I DESERVE BETTER". If that anger was just enough to make you pick up the phone, and buy a travelcard to go see that T, then any anger you have at me would have been worth it.

People get angry at each other, and that is ok. Its part of actually making relationships better, because it lets them know what we want from them. You have every right to be angry - with others, with your family, with me. If theres one thing I know though, anger can be a force for good. It can drive us to do things we would not normally have the guts to do. I almost want you to get angry, at me and everyone who has ever made you feel this way, and to say "screw you! you know what? Im going to do this for me BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO - and not because you tell me to!"

Gwarrrr!!! **holds up punching bag for walker to hit**

[hummm_mabbe]

i am certainly NOT ssaying i deserve to be dependent

i detest it

i am bitterly ashamed of it

what i am saying

is I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO DOES IT

yet i feel like i am

Nobody is punishing you for being dependent, what is happening is the unfortunate pattern that very strong dependence causes. They really are patterns, because they make what we are scared of actually happen.

In strong cases of dependence, others become fatigued, NOT angry, and they pull away. YES the world should not be like this. People should ideally have limitless compassion and patience - but they do not. That is what is happening on here, but your nasty inner voice tells you that it is punishment. When you accuse people of punishing you and hating you, it upsets them and they may actually come to feel angry towards you - again, the dependence pattern actually causes the thing you are scared of to happen, and everyone is left thinking "what the hell happened there?". As many folks have BPD, this may come out in less than optimum ways and be very hurtful to you. It is no ones fault, and it is not your "badness" - it is the nature of the schema which for you is extremely powerful.

Not everyone will be like this, and you know there is a great deal of compassion here for you. Everyone wants to see you well - but it is very difficult not to be drawn into the pattern that dependence causes simply because we are human, and it seems that this same pattern is happening outside in real life too. What I am trying to do is light enough of a fire under you (and yes that perhaps means I am overstepping bounds) to break out of that pattern, because it is eating you alive.

[walker]

it is eating you alive

- yes

i think it is also because i know there are other problems, not just dependence, and i resent that - that - is the one that gets targetted

also

i live with someone who is also very dependent, but hides it behind his hobbies and drink

i am hugely resentful that i am in such a mess and having to face such terrors and demons

yet HUB carries on blindly, refusing to accept he has any problems and drowning his pain in alcohol

yes i am very very very bitter

i seem to be carrying his pain, mums, dad, bloody everyones

and i get shafted for it

[hummm_mabbe]

Exactly - it is not fair, others are hiding all their problems and making it seem its all your fault.

You deserve to have that support, but you are feeling alone and attacked. In the same way as when you go out the house or on a train you fear something bad may happen, you fear the same thing about the whole world. Like so many people with these problems, you are hypervigilant, you are on permanent alert for anything that looks like that danger. There are a number of reasons why this is, and you and I have talked about them before.

But most importantly, you are feeling alone. The sad thing is that because of how you have been trained when little, the only route left open to you to try to feel better happens to be one that damages you, because it pushes others away.

Some people have an abandonment schema - they fear being ledt alone, and so they panic when their partner goes out. They may become jealous or try to keep tabs on them. The person becomes angry and leaves them - the pattern makes the fear happen. In mistrust and abuse - the person ends up choosing around them (because it feels familiar) people that hurt them. They see actions desgined to hurt them and take advantage in all things, even inncuous ones. As they bcome accusing and paranoid, so others keep their distance or may get angry and retaliate to the hotsile, distant way they are acting. The fear becomes reality. In subjugation the person may rebel against any kind of what feels like control - and so as they rebel, others try to control more. The fear becomes reality. People with emotional dperivation somehow choose people who are depriving, or caught up in their own problems - and so the deprivation deepens. Everyone with a powerful schema has their own patterns that keep them stuck, and keep them hurting. For some there is more than one schema which may be just as powerful, and then it becomes as you say much more complicated.

It hurts like hell and it seems inescapable. You have been carrying everyones pain for long enough, they have been selfish and they have not thought about you. You really HAVE been deprived, and that is not fair. You deserve to have your needs met and to be listened to, and you deserve to feel strong again and to be happy.

[walker]

thank you Ross

my dear gp - the new one - has just called me to check how cpn visit went

he said he know i am dependent but he would not condemn me for it

he said i am still entitled to compassion, and support, and not be punished for how i am

he has seen me a few times over the past few years, and he said he can see how badly i have deteriorated

[hummm_mabbe]

Oh great

Does this mean you are going to be getting some therapy and help?

[walker]

the cpn said i will be taken back to cmhc and will see if i can get onto stepps program, but she thinks it is full

if not

not sure

theory is DPD needs short, kick up the arse type therapy

but

i have had similar

and long term - well - here i am

i told gp about the T

i am so scared Ross

so bloody scared

and so damn low

[Rael]

a lot of that has really made me think and think of my own behaviour in the past too and look at things now in a new light.

im glad that your gp is being supportive and that they are taking you back to the cmht. it will be good if they can get you on the stepps programme but even if it is full then they can always put you on a waiting list for the next one, i know it wouldnt be ideal but it would definitely be better than feeling like there was nothing.

xxx