Empathy And Identifying With Outsiders

[Ruth24]

Wow, this is an old topic! Not read it before

I can see your point meme.

However, I agree with angelsavo.

A person who has sadistic thoughts but has very little self control could be a very dangerous person. More boundaries and more self discipline perhaps

[Tray]

I have just come across this...

i have too much empathy/compassion for others. i go out my way to do stuff for people, ven if i dont like them. i think its more of making myself irreplacable to others, that i am needed. if i think i have upset someone, like this stuff going on mith my family at mo, i start offering things, trying to make it better, evn tho i dont want to, cause i dont want anyone to feel bad, even tho i feel shit at the end of it

Meme, i agree, i have an 'understanding' of people like that, i have an ability to relate to all sorts of people, murders, robbers, abusers... yes some of them, they are pure vil, but a lot of 'bad people' are there for a reason, their upbringing, their life style... some people have no way of controlling themselves, be it alchohol, drugs, violence etc... they do have a 'choice' of course, but ultimatly, its something thats ingrained in them... everyone loses control... thats nature, these people are like it throu nurture usually... mix bad upbringing and natural urges, you sometimes get a bad mix.

i have no self control. i do not have those type of urges, i do have sexual problems and have slept around lots, but if that was one of my urges also, who knows if it could be controlled. many abusers hate themselves for wanting to do it, and for doing it... yes they still do it, the same as i still sleep around even tho i hate myself for doing it, because ast that moment in time... it feels 'normal'

hope i havnt offnded anyone, and please do not start getting at me, cause i really dont need that. this is MY opinion, no one else's.

[Data]

Thank you for your support, Tray.

When I was a teenager a middle aged man tried to get me to go in his car. To be fair, I suppose if he had succeeded then I may have had a different view about this subject....

[angelsavo]

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

[Roses]

Meme, so someone would have had to sexually abuse you to make you feel that paedophiles are dispicable pieces of scum who should be put down because paying the tax bill for their incarceration is too good for them?

[Ruth24]

I have just come across this...

i have too much empathy/compassion for others. i go out my way to do stuff for people, ven if i dont like them. i think its more of making myself irreplacable to others, that i am needed. if i think i have upset someone, like this stuff going on mith my family at mo, i start offering things, trying to make it better, evn tho i dont want to, cause i dont want anyone to feel bad, even tho i feel shit at the end of it

Meme, i agree, i have an 'understanding' of people like that, i have an ability to relate to all sorts of people, murders, robbers, abusers... yes some of them, they are pure vil, but a lot of 'bad people' are there for a reason, their upbringing, their life style... some people have no way of controlling themselves, be it alchohol, drugs, violence etc... they do have a 'choice' of course, but ultimatly, its something thats ingrained in them... everyone loses control... thats nature, these people are like it throu nurture usually... mix bad upbringing and natural urges, you sometimes get a bad mix.

i have no self control. i do not have those type of urges, i do have sexual problems and have slept around lots, but if that was one of my urges also, who knows if it could be controlled. many abusers hate themselves for wanting to do it, and for doing it... yes they still do it, the same as i still sleep around even tho i hate myself for doing it, because ast that moment in time... it feels 'normal'

hope i havnt offnded anyone, and please do not start getting at me, cause i really dont need that. this is MY opinion, no one else's.

Tray

I am not angry so don'y worry. Not going to have a go. Just want to say, I used to aleep around a lot too. A lot of it was due to low self esteem and depression. I hated myself so did bad things to hate myself more. I hope you gain some more self esteem so you don't feel the need to sleep arond anymore. What do are doing is harming nobody else. but you. Abusers hurt other people and I feel that is totally different. Don't put yourself anyway near the same category

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Meme,

I agree with Roses and angel on this one

[Tray]

i understand what you mean, it is my choice to do that, and abused people dont have a choice. all i think im trying to say is that, even thou they are hurting others, some are also hurting and have been hurt. its like kids who's parents faught a lot, will likely fight with their partners, we learn from what we see/are shown.

i think this topic is one of those where everyone will disagree but the important, underlining thing is the fact that we as people can be so empathetic towards others, even those who have don wrong, and yet hate ourselves enuf to want to harm ourselves.

that is th area we need to work on, the one that helps us learn to put ourselves first once in a while, when needed.

(angelsavo - i belong in this forum as i have BPD and mental health problems. A lot of people with those type of urges also have MH problems. I understand that this subject upsets you, as it does others, and you have your own opinions, but please do not band me in with people of that nature, as that is not what i am, or ever will be )

[Sammy]

I personally can not bring myself to have empathy for a paedophile, however I think it's wrong to judge someone poorly because they do. Having empathy is not the same as condoning the behaviour, supporting it in any way or being involved in any such behaviour.

I am pretty sure meme and tray would never dream of hurting a child in any way like that, nor would they ever support someone who did. I think I can understand what they are saying, perhaps they feel sorry for the paedophile because they feel this person is unable to control themselves and has urges they might wish they didn't have and hate themselves for it.

However I've seen paedophiles in documentaries with little signs of remorse or regret and to me that is more reason why I can't feel sorry for them or have empathy for them. Doesn't mean I hate anyone that does have empathy for them though as long as it doesn't involve any kind of practical support for that behaviour.

[Sammy]

Oh also can I say that I think meme has empathy for the fact they are outsiders like himself rather than their actual behaviour.

[Data]

To be honest I try to never judge anyone, and see both the good and bad in everyone. I don't like to write anyone off as evil or sub-human for any reason. Perhaps some would call this naive.

[Roses]

Yes, some people would see that as niave.

[piuma]

wow this is a really interesting post! so many different things to respond to, hmm where should i start!

empathy- for me i know i do feel it, but i have a hell of time showing it! i do know that usually people will always say that i care and always put people before myself, slitly different to empathy i know but once i started getting really poorly last year people commented on how selfish id become, purely because i only ever talked about my problems and wanting to die, and wanting to die in itself was a selfish act! anyhow, it hurts i guess when people say stuff like that. But. i totally understand meme where you'r coming from, for a long time i always sided with the under dog, my sister gets mad with me becuase she says im the typed of person to say when someone bad does something, oh but im sure they have there reasons for doing it! which kind a brings me onto people who commit horrible acts agains children, or anyone for that matter. speaking as someone who has experienced both physical and sexual abuse, i honestly cant bring myself to say, these people should be put down, or evil. i dont disbute that what they do to people and what has been done to be is def not ok, but i see that they must be troubled and need help themselves. this is the kind of attitude my sister gets mad at! so i try to keep my opinions to myself!

i think in another way, back to empathy, i too find it impossible to show emotions to people, say when they have just told me a relative has died or had a baby or got engaged. i do feel things for them, and say online i would be able to be real, but i find in person this fakeness comes about me. and i think thats not lack of empathy its more to do with not being able to show people my true feelings!

ha anyway this has all been about me.............i guess what i really mean meme is i dont think you lack in any of the points you made empathy sympathy etc i think maybe like me you cant or wont express, and its easier to show feelings about maybe people who are disliked because chances are people will challenge those thoughts becasue they disagree?? does any of that make sense??

xxxxx

[Ruth24]

To be honest I try to never judge anyone, and see both the good and bad in everyone. I don't like to write anyone off as evil or sub-human for any reason. Perhaps some would call this naive.

Maybe if your children ever had contact with a paedophine (and i pray that never happens) your opinions of them being sub human may change.

I cannot empathys with sexual predators, be it rapists or paedophiles. Maybe it is because I am so different to them i cannot understand. There are plenty of onther minority groups that feel ostracisedand and for them i do feel empathy, because they are outsiders and misunderstood. I feel sexual predators are such a minority and se extreme, i don 't even want to empathise even if i could. i know many abujsers have been abused themselves, and for that i feel pity. however, it in no way justifies their actions

I have been raped. I also said that at times i felt sorry for my rapists because they had to go to such extremes and hurt me to get sexual pleasure. However, they are my rapists, and i hate them. I do not feel pity for any other rapists. It is personal to me and only i can decide how i feel about them. I despise them for what they did. But in a patronising way, i pity the evil bastards, but WILL NEVER empathyse.

As i said there are many other minorities that i can empathise with, people who are misunderstood, but that is because i can relate to them. I will never be able to relate to a sexual predator, regardless of how different they are to the rest of society. they are simply too different and too much of a minority. And to be honest, if i were able to empathise with them, i would find that incredibly scary

[piuma]

i hear you ruth......and im sorry that happened to you, i guess we all feel very differently,i dont know about other people its just for me, i knew the person who hurt me and they were family, i would find it hard to say that my family member is evil and a bastard, even though every memory in which there is pain, i feel sick and think how could you, i find it hard to hate them, but then i guess i internalise everything, and its taken a long time to not be convinced that these things were my fault! let alone thinking maybe its their fault, if that makes sense! anyway i hope that doesnt offend anyone, its just my opinion even if a little distaughted

[roxy222]

Wow, this is an old topic! Not read it before

I can see your point meme.

However, I agree with angelsavo.

A person who has sadistic thoughts but has very little self control could be a very dangerous person. More boundaries and more self discipline perhaps

there is a very big difference between sdaistic thoughts and urges and acting on them though. if people have support to look at these urges, to understand them and discover where they come from and what they can communicate about the persons experince, what pain the uncover what pain then needs to be dealt with faced grieved over etc then they do not need to act them out on scapegoats, it is the people who have these urges who do not admit them who refuse to see the pain behind them who go out and find victims to tranfer this pain onto rather than face within themselves who are dangerous and sick.

[roxy222]

Wow, this is an old topic! Not read it before

I can see your point meme.

However, I agree with angelsavo.

A person who has sadistic thoughts but has very little self control could be a very dangerous person. More boundaries and more self discipline perhaps

oh and people who do go around abusing or killing others more often than not have tons of self control, that is ofcourse why they choose helpless defenseless victims like children who they can take their rage out on, and yet are highly manipulative and able to fool many other people they come into contact with and keep a lid on their sadistic nature with people who are in an equal position or one of power. sadists are all about control, they have tons of disipline, look at all of the ones who very successfuly control themselves well enough to be repected pillars of the community but who behind closed doors are sick and evil, leading a double life like this requires self control and discipline

[roxy222]

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

i agree that people who are abusers deserve this treatment. my abusers were sick perverts who do not deserve to live, and i agree that it isnt a mental illness. but no one here is saying they are an abuser, there is a very big difference between urges and acting on them like i explained before.

even though i feel abusers deserve this treatment i would not be infavour of it being lawful. life long lock up though, that i agree with for peadophiles. althouhg i'll shut up before i start five thousand differnt arguements and completely change the topic title

[roxy222]

I personally can not bring myself to have empathy for a paedophile, however I think it's wrong to judge someone poorly because they do. Having empathy is not the same as condoning the behaviour, supporting it in any way or being involved in any such behaviour.

I am pretty sure meme and tray would never dream of hurting a child in any way like that, nor would they ever support someone who did. I think I can understand what they are saying, perhaps they feel sorry for the paedophile because they feel this person is unable to control themselves and has urges they might wish they didn't have and hate themselves for it.

However I've seen paedophiles in documentaries with little signs of remorse or regret and to me that is more reason why I can't feel sorry for them or have empathy for them. Doesn't mean I hate anyone that does have empathy for them though as long as it doesn't involve any kind of practical support for that behaviour.

i can have empathy for how they got to be who they are, but not for the choices they make, ie the choice to abuse children

[Ruth24]

i hear you ruth......and im sorry that happened to you, i guess we all feel very differently,i dont know about other people its just for me, i knew the person who hurt me and they were family, i would find it hard to say that my family member is evil and a bastard, even though every memory in which there is pain, i feel sick and think how could you, i find it hard to hate them, but then i guess i internalise everything, and its taken a long time to not be convinced that these things were my fault! let alone thinking maybe its their fault, if that makes sense! anyway i hope that doesnt offend anyone, its just my opinion even if a little distaughted

I#m so sorry you had to go through that and i hope you weren'y offended by me calling my rapists evil bastards. Being a family member, it must tear you apart. I feel that if a person has been affected by a sexual predator, there is no right or wrong opinion. We all deal in different ways. People who haven't been directly affected may find it hard to understand and I find it hard to value their opinion. That may really piss people off, everybody is entitled to an opinion etc. But that doesn't mean i have to give it any value. But it is interesting to hear the opinions of others

[roxy222]

To be honest I try to never judge anyone, and see both the good and bad in everyone. I don't like to write anyone off as evil or sub-human for any reason. Perhaps some would call this naive.

Maybe if your children ever had contact with a paedophine (and i pray that never happens) your opinions of them being sub human may change.

I cannot empathys with sexual predators, be it rapists or paedophiles. Maybe it is because I am so different to them i cannot understand. There are plenty of onther minority groups that feel ostracisedand and for them i do feel empathy, because they are outsiders and misunderstood. I feel sexual predators are such a minority and se extreme, i don 't even want to empathise even if i could. i know many abujsers have been abused themselves, and for that i feel pity. however, it in no way justifies their actions

I have been raped. I also said that at times i felt sorry for my rapists because they had to go to such extremes and hurt me to get sexual pleasure. However, they are my rapists, and i hate them. I do not feel pity for any other rapists. It is personal to me and only i can decide how i feel about them. I despise them for what they did. But in a patronising way, i pity the evil bastards, but WILL NEVER empathyse.

As i said there are many other minorities that i can empathise with, people who are misunderstood, but that is because i can relate to them. I will never be able to relate to a sexual predator, regardless of how different they are to the rest of society. they are simply too different and too much of a minority. And to be honest, if i were able to empathise with them, i would find that incredibly scary

got to correct this, however sad this is i dont think its true that sexual predators are such a minority. sexual abuse and the worlds blindness to it is so so deeply ingrained within our society that most assume that these 'monsters' are few and far between, but that is not the reality. most are fathers and mothers and siblings who sit round the dinner tabel like any other family. 86% of all abusers are the victims direct family, many others are other relations, or adults in positions of trust and power like a dr or teacher. 1 in ten child care workers are estimated to be peadophiles. so the people you are talking about are not a tiny minority. not that this gives them any more right to empathy or anything, just i wanted to correct this myth because this type of blindness is dangerous and is part of the reason abusers find it so easy to continue to commit crimes because no oneis looking for the trusted mother or the attentive teacher, they look for weirdos who they see as monsters and yet most abusers never ever appear like this

[Lily-Bee]

This is to Angelsavo I understand that these kind of subjects can bring on strong emotions but you are not allowed to post any kind of direct or indirect death threats ok?? So stop doing that.

Lilly

[Roses]

ItT wasn't a fucking death threat any more than this is. It was his opinion.

[canadian mike]

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

Pedophilia is not a mental illness? Yes, it is. Obviously, you do not have any empathy for pedophiles, which is your choice. Though I understand the basics of pedophilia, it is not a subject I have heavily delved into, but I know that it is considered a "mental illness", and can be found in the DSM.

I do know of one pedophile - one of my uncles - and have no empathy for him, no willingness to associate with him. I also know enough of his background to know that he, too, was abused as a child. Why my eldest brother, one of my uncle's victims, would associate with him is beyond my understanding. I simply refer to it as "stockholm syndrome".

Can a pedophile be rehabilitated? I suppose one's level of empathy would be influenced by their opinion of this. What separates a pedophile from others? No idea, personally, I am turned on by lots of voluptuous curves.

I understand pedophilia to be more of a power issue than a sexual issue. With this in mind, perhaps, a pedophile is a bully who never grew up(matured)?

Angelsavo, Roxy, any others: apparently you have very strong feelings regarding this topic. I am, however, very curious as to why you do not see this as a mental illness. Could you enlighten me?

[rebeccaborderline]

Hi,

Empathy; I over-emphasise frequently with anybody I see in distress. It can be problematic as partly I think its a function of my BPD ie 1) deflecting/avoiding my own emotions by immersing myself in theirs 2) oversensitivity, like being a raw emotional wound constantly; even though no longer "ill" it means I get very distressed about other peoples distress,.I think somehow this is self-aborption on my part (havnt really thought this through lol ).

Another part of the oversensitivity is absorbing atmosheres from buildings or rooms or certain places. This confuses me as I am a pragmatic person, not spiritual or religious. Some places can feel really nice; but once i a while a building/room will be so overwhelmingly hostile, soaked in bad feeling, that I have to retreat fast.

Paedophiles & serial killers; as a victim of a paedophile I have no empathy, sympathy or compassion for them. Like all sexual crimes, I believe paedophilia is an issue of power and control through violence, not sex. Thus I do not accept the argument that they have uncontrollable sexual urges-for me, they have strong urges to dominate and use sexual violence towards children to achieve this because they cannot achieve this with their peers. Kids are an easy target.

I met my abuser 7 years later as an adult, and tried to demand answers, and met such an immense lack of guilt/remorse/sense of wrong that I was stunned. His only comment to me was "you've ruined my life" because he'd been demoted when convicted. I'd ruined his life?!

However this gave me a horrified fascination with the difference between bad people who may still have some good, and evil people. Again as I'm not religious I struggle with the concept of evil; but I know my abuser was/is, it was so strong I could smell it (still can). Thus I too am fascinated by programmes about people who have committed the very worst crimes because I cannot, and never will be able, to understand what they do-along with most of the human population I guess. I avoid reading about this too much though as it's not healthy for me, personally (does my head in). However I have just read Gita Serenys "Cries Unheard", her 2nd (and better) book about Mary Bell. Eye-opening.

reb xx

[roxy222]

the sooner they are "put down" like a animal the better!

its not a mental illness! and should not be treated as one!

it is something that should be wiped out.

i will not call them poeple!!!!!!!

you understand them and have your own urges? you decide where you should be

Pedophilia is not a mental illness? Yes, it is. Obviously, you do not have any empathy for pedophiles, which is your choice. Though I understand the basics of pedophilia, it is not a subject I have heavily delved into, but I know that it is considered a "mental illness", and can be found in the DSM.

I do know of one pedophile - one of my uncles - and have no empathy for him, no willingness to associate with him. I also know enough of his background to know that he, too, was abused as a child. Why my eldest brother, one of my uncle's victims, would associate with him is beyond my understanding. I simply refer to it as "stockholm syndrome".

Can a pedophile be rehabilitated? I suppose one's level of empathy would be influenced by their opinion of this. What separates a pedophile from others? No idea, personally, I am turned on by lots of voluptuous curves.

I understand pedophilia to be more of a power issue than a sexual issue. With this in mind, perhaps, a pedophile is a bully who never grew up(matured)?

Angelsavo, Roxy, any others: apparently you have very strong feelings regarding this topic. I am, however, very curious as to why you do not see this as a mental illness. Could you enlighten me?

because its a choice, not something they can not help. abusing a child is an active action, a choice, and no i dont belief peadophiles can be rehabilitated, ray wires research found that 99% of all peadophiles reoffend. i think the one obvious exception would be where a child was forced to abuse other children by adult abusers, then as adults they could themselves choose not to continue to commit these crimes. adults are responsible for their choices. if peadophillia was a mental illness then when caught they would be deemed not resposible for their crimes and not sent to trial and then to prison. as for the dsm, well one apon a time homesexuality was in their too so i dont find that a valid arguement