Empathy And Identifying With Outsiders

[Sammy]

Just want to say I don't see my brother as a paedophile though, what he did he did was as a child, and I know he would never do anything like that now as an adult and doesn't think of children in a bad way.

[Roses]

Ha ha ha rose-tinted spectacle, love it, NOT!

[roxy222]

This is clearly screwed up and worrying and triggering.

Well I am as I am, a troubled and emotionally conflicted person who is constantly trying to improve myself. And I won't do that by looking at myself through a rose-tinted mirror.

Yes, he put trigger signs up and that is fine but it doesn't change the fact that is has outraged many people on here.

Well I suggest they just don't read my posts in future.

exactly, theres a couple of people i keep on ignore here because they are nasty individuals, and ban pms etc, so if people find meme or anyone else not worthwhile reading then use the ignore button

[blue80]

This is clearly screwed up and worrying and triggering.

Well I am as I am, a troubled and emotionally conflicted person who is constantly trying to improve myself. And I won't do that by looking at myself through a rose-tinted mirror.

Yes, he put trigger signs up and that is fine but it doesn't change the fact that is has outraged many people on here.

Well I suggest they just don't read my posts in future.

exactly, theres a couple of people i keep on ignore here because they are nasty individuals, and ban pms etc, so if people find meme or anyone else not worthwhile reading then use the ignore button

I don't normally post very often, but I've found a lot of Meme's posts very helpful. I've found a lot of "groups" ganging up on others and I don't like it!!! I've paid up a full subscription so I hope I can have some say on the forum. You my friend are a bully and I have been watching from the sidelines. I read Meme's very first post and I could relate to it. If you don't agree then you are welcome to say but do not make personbal attacks!!!

[blue80]

This is clearly screwed up and worrying and triggering.

Well I am as I am, a troubled and emotionally conflicted person who is constantly trying to improve myself. And I won't do that by looking at myself through a rose-tinted mirror.

Yes, he put trigger signs up and that is fine but it doesn't change the fact that is has outraged many people on here.

Well I suggest they just don't read my posts in future.

exactly, theres a couple of people i keep on ignore here because they are nasty individuals, and ban pms etc, so if people find meme or anyone else not worthwhile reading then use the ignore button

I don't normally post very often, but I've found a lot of Meme's posts very helpful. I've found a lot of "groups" ganging up on others and I don't like it!!! I've paid up a full subscription so I hope I can have some say on the forum. You my friend are a bully and I have been watching from the sidelines. I read Meme's very first post and I could relate to it. If you don't agree then you are welcome to say but do not make personbal attacks!!!

[canadian mike]

A few points, if I might:

I do not wish to offend a friend, but I do not feel that this topic is appropriate for these forums, for all of the most obvious reasons. In fact, I believe that there is a value in removing this thread.

Personally, I sensed much violence in angelsavo's post, though I hope that it was not a direct threat toward members of these forums. I appreciate how angry he may feel but ask that he make clear that he is not making threats toward anyone here.

Sammy, determining whether your sibling was a pedophile, or not, largely depends on the age difference, at the time of these incidences.

Roses, thanks for the "antisocial personality disorder" description.

In general, the determination of whether such an affliction is/is not considered a "mental illness" has nothing to do with how acceptable it is to society, nor whether one "chooses" to act on their obsession. As someone with OCD, I choose to allow obsessions & compulsions to invade my life. As a person with BPD, I choose to "recover" or not. As one with severe clinical depression, I make the decision to attempt suicide, to self-harm, to self-medicate.

We draw our lines in the sand to differentiate between what we - as individuals, and as societies - consider acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The challenge comes in where to draw the new lines, as our values & beliefs change. As I am fascinated by abnormal psychology, I'd be very interested in delving into this topic. As I have already suggested, however, I do not believe that this is the appropriate place for such discussion.

[Sammy]

My brother is only 18 months older than myself.

[Lily-Bee]

Hi all, i think discussion even about touchy subjects is always good,however it is a very sensitive subject and things are getting heated.So if you feel too triggered maybe you should not read this thread or take time to breathe and think before you post a reply so you do not react on first emotional impulse.

And remember everybody has a right to their own opinions,lets respect that.

Lilly

[canadian mike]

Though 18 months can be close, or far, depending on the ages(10 to 12, 14 to 16, etc.), your brother would not be considered a pedophile. If no consent were involved, then he would, of course, be guilty of rape, no matter the ages. Depending on the degree of consent, much could be written off as sexual curiosity - when we're kids we call this "playing doctor". Chances are that he harbours the guilt in the the way that my sister does for "molesting" her little brother. For me, it was no big deal. Still, I do not wish to draw comparisons, as I do not know your story & would not wish to make light of something that may be an emotional scar for you.

[rebeccaborderline]

Those who talk about empathising with serious criminals in our society eg child abusers, killers etc, I think are being rather naive-and yes, a bit immature.

I understand the pull to align yourself with those on the "outside" of the society, as many of us here with MH problems have felt marginalised at some points ourself.

However to "empathise" my grouping myself with any "outsiders" is just plain daft, it almost seems to me like an excited teenager in their bedroom thinking they have a special affinity with some serial killer they've read about "because no-one understands me either"!

Get real; do you think for one second these dreadful criminals would spare a thought or a smidgen of empathy for you?

If you want to empathise with people on the fringes of society, fine; there are millions of people out there who are are "outsiders" because of torture, discrimination, imprisonment, poverty etc who deserve your empathy more.

If you want to try to understand serious criminals fine; but train for it by joining the police/forensic psychiatry/serious social work etc.

This has all got a bit juvenile, and I too am rather offended by the inference that because I have MH probs I should/would feel an affinity with people who commit these dreadful crimes, by and large with no compunction.

reb

[roxy222]

This is clearly screwed up and worrying and triggering.

Well I am as I am, a troubled and emotionally conflicted person who is constantly trying to improve myself. And I won't do that by looking at myself through a rose-tinted mirror.

Yes, he put trigger signs up and that is fine but it doesn't change the fact that is has outraged many people on here.

Well I suggest they just don't read my posts in future.

exactly, theres a couple of people i keep on ignore here because they are nasty individuals, and ban pms etc, so if people find meme or anyone else not worthwhile reading then use the ignore button

I don't normally post very often, but I've found a lot of Meme's posts very helpful. I've found a lot of "groups" ganging up on others and I don't like it!!! I've paid up a full subscription so I hope I can have some say on the forum. You my friend are a bully and I have been watching from the sidelines. I read Meme's very first post and I could relate to it. If you don't agree then you are welcome to say but do not make personbal attacks!!!

who exactly are you saying this to? you have it inreply to what i was saying but then i have said several times through this thread, and on others recently, for people to stop being abusive and swearing towards other, and to stop doing this to meme in particular, because thats who they were aiming it at at the time.

i have differeing opinions from most on this thread, like i said earlier i can empathise with how someone becomes a peadophile, but not the actions they take to abuse children. that i guess is kind of the middle ground here, although by no means is that sitting on the fence. and i have not been abusive or derogatory to anyone elses opinions, so im hoping this is not aimed at me. in fact i in particluar said that if people have strong opposite opinions to voice them without being abusive to the poster, as in no personal attacks, so if your another person voicing that then great, but if your aiming this at me then read the thread more carefully becuse i do not bully anyone

[bibiddi]

I am not going to mention most of this thread.

All I will say is, I think Meme could have made two threads from this. Firstly talking about empathy.

The second, and probably more important, is why and how meme feels like an outsider.

It may be helpful for meme to find out what role in this he plays.

[Roses]

Roxy, Blue 80 said I was a bully. It's OK though people gotta vent and Blue80 doesn't know me at all so their niave and un-educated opinion doesn't affect me in the smallest amount.

[Data]

As I have said before, I deeply regret starting this topic. It was done a long time ago and now I realise that, despite the use of trigger warnings, it was a tactless subject to raise here given the abuse many forum members have suffered. Canadian Mike is Right. Perhaps the need of the people here, who suffer mental health problems and can be very fragile, to not be triggered, is more important than my need to work through my feelings. I would not start a topic such as this now.

My therapist says that I struggle to understand how people will respond emotionally to the things I say to them, thats why I have social anxiety (and hence why my social life consists of the internet). This is why I feel like an outside, bibiddi. Lately I have been putting my foot in it but I am learning !!!

I think rebeccaborderline is correct that I have been naive. I now realise that a lot of paedophiles are manipulative, power-crazed and don't want help. Not all paedophiles are criminals though, some do not act on their urges, thats an important distinction (those that do make a choice). I did not mean to implying that other people with mental health issues have views like mine at all.

It is a shame that this topic has become so nasty and friends have been lost as a result of it.

[Tray]

well said meme...

the original start was about epmathy, but half way throu, you said yourself that empthy was not the correct phrasing... that from people's rsponnses they had helped you figure out exactly what it was you were feeling, and i think most people on here are missing that point entirely...

the whole idea of this place is to work throu our feelings and emotions... as someone with BPD, i do not know how to grade my emotions, i do not know what i am feeling, sadness, disgust, empathy, etc, ijust know that there is a part of me that can relate to others on some level... from the young to the old...

this whole post has literly gone to pot, the original topic has been talked about and meme has discovered something about his own emotions and feelings, and that is thanks to people who have responded to him in a correct adult manner.

it is highly emotive, and has cause friction, but it aint the first time a post has done that, and im sure it wont be the last, but can we let it lie now? yes friendships may have been lost for now, maybe always, but there are other members here who are not going to take sides, an dont want to be piggy in the middle

[successful_workthru]

Am unconmfortable witnessing the suffering of others.

I do admit (and I don't think it's right) that I am less uncomfortable with the suffering of those who have hurt me.

If a hurtful person is remorseful, this tends to increase empathy.

Sympathy follows empathy for me, but isn't the same.

To me, empathy is an uncomfortable and unbearable feeling when others are suffering.

Sometimes, my own pain feels too much to register the suffering of others, and my empathy does not come through at the time, but it may, later, when I think of that person.

[roxy222]

for the original point of this topic

meme, do you read much? have you read colin wilsons famous book the outsider? and perhaps alice millers book the untouched key which deals with some of the same outsiders (neizche for example -i so cant spell). anyways if you like to read and read these i think maybe it would be v interesting for you to discuss these within your attachment therapy, and ask your t opinion. i read the outsider as a teenager, or manybe preteen cant quite member, and identified massively, even though its mostly male. when i read the untouched key it dealt with alot of the writers i identified with v v much, rimbauds description of i as another was proably the biggest comfort i found as a teenager because my sence of self was so damaged, finally someone else who felt the same! reading the untouched key and understanding why this was the case was v valuable to me. and when i reread the outsider as an adult i found that i was able to see the same patterns the outsiders paths were illustrating as evidence of this same loss of self, loss of connection to others, feelings of being different, outside of society, etc etc, all of which i know come from negative attachment patterns. so anyways, thats why i thought these works maybe helpful for you if looked at within your therapy

[roxy222]

A few points, if I might:

I do not wish to offend a friend, but I do not feel that this topic is appropriate for these forums, for all of the most obvious reasons. In fact, I believe that there is a value in removing this thread.

Personally, I sensed much violence in angelsavo's post, though I hope that it was not a direct threat toward members of these forums. I appreciate how angry he may feel but ask that he make clear that he is not making threats toward anyone here.

Sammy, determining whether your sibling was a pedophile, or not, largely depends on the age difference, at the time of these incidences.

Roses, thanks for the "antisocial personality disorder" description.

In general, the determination of whether such an affliction is/is not considered a "mental illness" has nothing to do with how acceptable it is to society, nor whether one "chooses" to act on their obsession. As someone with OCD, I choose to allow obsessions & compulsions to invade my life. As a person with BPD, I choose to "recover" or not. As one with severe clinical depression, I make the decision to attempt suicide, to self-harm, to self-medicate.

We draw our lines in the sand to differentiate between what we - as individuals, and as societies - consider acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The challenge comes in where to draw the new lines, as our values & beliefs change. As I am fascinated by abnormal psychology, I'd be very interested in delving into this topic. As I have already suggested, however, I do not believe that this is the appropriate place for such discussion.

but ocd, bpd and depression are the illnesses here, not the choices you make, they are symptoms, not illnesses in themselves

peadophiles may all be ill, im not disputing that, im not agreeing with it either, im saying that abusing children, making that choice, which is what a peadophile is/does, is not an illness in itself. it is a criminal action. depression, ocd whatever are not criminal actions, perhaps some of the stuff people people do taht or are their symptoms of these may be, but those symptoms are not what the illness is definable as, if it were itd be the symtoms that were in the dsm not the illness. so the symptom, abusing children or being a peadophile is not an illness in the same sence. this is a somantics issue. and my brain is scrambled so i cant seem to make sentances today

[canadian mike]

I woke up at about 3am this morning, with the realization that I'd read some of this topic before. As I have just checked over the dates of each post, I now see that "angelsavo" dug this topic up from some months ago(April). I do not believe that it is good taste to dredge up another member's past comments, as we all have times when we push the envelopes in our printed thoughts & - as posts/threads are only removed at the discretion of Joshua, and, maybe, the staff - are unable to erase these ponderings if, at a later date, we would wish to do so.

Couldn't quite follow, Roxy. If I understand, correctly, you are saying that pedophilia is a mental illness, but the act is a choice, therefore not - for you - because of the mental illness? If I am correct, I'd suggest that it is semantics. As a person with OCD, I have a compulsion which has caused me some facial disfigurement. Yes, it is my choice to allow this compulsion. However, for whatever reason, I have been unable to control this compulsion. Now, certainly, it is day and night between harming/damaging oneself & harming others. Still, is the pedophile more capable of controlling his compulsion than I? I'm not convinced.

[Joshua]

Hello

Im sad to see that meme's very open post about his true feelings have been responded to with such anger and insults.

No one here is to say what topic is for this forum or not. At the very core of recovery is the ability to be honest about what’s going on for you and how you feel about it. This should be encouraged and embraced not shot down with insults.

Yes meme has brought up some content that may be hard for people to hear but its how he feels, how he see's things and it’s his right on this forum to express it without being insulted.

Meme - I commend your insight and bravery in posting this thread and i hope your experience here does not negatively influence your future postings.

[Barebones]

Hi Josh my luv, the pain in your arse lol.

I do agree with some parts of what you said, but the thing is, if the surviors of abuse forum was still up, would you say the same thing? If this topic was put in that place what would be the reaction?

You yourself know, Alot of MH issues is due to upbringing and abuse of some sort, really is this topic appropriate and what resulted was true feelings and other, resulted from this topic? My other thought, yes have been told to freely say what is on our minds? but take inaccount that what you may think is appropriate and searching for an understanding is in reality it will be of this topic to produce this kind of feelings.

I never responded and gave thought prior until now as in the end is the direction will go the way it has.

So my suggestion if i wanted to give it at the time, is tell you what? maybe go to a pheadophile forum and get understanding, there you would not have the same response you would have here. Do you understand?

I will also add, in the long run, meme has learnt and ackowledged that it was maybe wrong words he used. So cool, but do not flame down ( yes maybe wrong choice of words) the people here who has very much have had dealing with pheodphiles and been abused. You yourself know what the outcome comes of that.

So to say josh i have no problem with you and allways showed my dedication to this forum.

We are here to learn aswell as help, and ofcause deal with many life issues, but some issues should be explored else where and helped in a very much more qualified setting.

so i agree to disagree with your comments above.

Peace and light josh, hope you and kids are doing ok, also em is fine. ( that is a sincere feeling to you)

[Joshua]

It makes no difference to me what forum this is, someone who has a mental health condition has posted there feelings and thoughts and this should be respected.

People on this forum should be entitled to post how they feel and what they think about without the fear they will be jumped on and insulted. Its to meme's credit that he felt able to post such a topic, i would say he must have thought he could trust the people around him to have done so.

p.s - im fine thanks, kids are good.

[angelsavo]

ok il start this by answering to couple peoples posts about me.....

canadian mike, i first replied to this after so many weeks of it finishing cos i have not been around. or is there a new rule saying after X amount of time you can no longer say anything?

Ocean Wolf, lilly, meme, it was not a death threat, plz little sense how can you make threats when in real life you are totaly unable to do anything about them!

ocean wolf, you said "Never take from others... unless it's turning a place that was once safe into a place where we're no longer sure who wants us dead. And (if one reads the rest of that post) the lives of people you don't like. You have no remorse saying this and give the impression you'd have no remorse doing it. Go ahead. Try killing people, try putting people down like the animals they are. That would make you a serial killer."-

truth i do not have any remorse saying this and have very little remorse or sympathy towards certain males [in real life], and for good reason. "Prevention prevents the problem" very few of them have ever been shown to be cured, and yes i believe in the capital punishment, and "if" they are found guilty to lock them away where they have a roof, 3meals aday, chance to socialize with others like them, never mind the cost to everybody to keep them happy.

and il not add anything else to this post cos seems some have issuses with others having there own thoughts or opinions

[Benway]

i totally agree with all angelsavo has to say one or so posts above.

where is the flippin humour gone on this board?

and some people do not deserve to live after what they do to the innocent.

anne marie

[blue80]

Roxy, Blue 80 said I was a bully. It's OK though people gotta vent and Blue80 doesn't know me at all so their niave and un-educated opinion doesn't affect me in the smallest amount.

Roses

I am sorry, I do not think you are a bully. I was venting and shouldn't have mentioned you. Please accept my apology.

Blue