Maniupulation

[Gillfawley]

Just read sundries last post - very interesting !

My bf finds it very difficult to say no to the demands of family friends etc and maintains an image of himself as easy going and laid back which he is at pains to point out.

So maybe he does feel guilty that he cannot fulfil my emotional needs, but justifies this by telling himself that 'he will not be manipulated'

A defence mechanism?

Maybe we're just bad for each other

[Ocean Wolf]

I hate when people call me manipulative when all I'm doing is expressing emotion.

Nick gets triggered by that (partially my fault). But we've worked ways around it. Like I try to be as front with him as possible. If he does get triggered, I remind him that he can make his own decisions and I know this.

[treacle14]

I have been thinking recently about manipulation. This is further to a topic of mine back in February: Emotional Games. I define as a covert attempt to invoke emotions in another person for some sort of psychological pay-off in yourself.

Examples of manipulating include:

• Storming out of a room to try and make people feel guilty because you weren't given enough attention.

• "Fishing for sympathy". People sometimes exaggerate their own difficulties because they want others attention/sympathy etc.

• Upsetting people because you are jealous of them.

I have read on some of the BPDWORLD websites that it is a misconception that people with personality disorders are manipulative. I disagree. In my opinion everyone does these things to a certain extent but they are more common in some people with personality disorders.

I believe it is a learned behaviour from childhood. In my case, my mother was very naive and as a child I would manipulate her for attention, sympathy etc and she was unable to see through it. So I grew up learning thats the way you interact with people.

I think that people maniupulate do deal with their own internal issues and they don't always realise that they are doing it. Its sometimes a subconscious thing. There are positive ways of coping with anger, rejection, sadness etc that don't involve manipulating people, such as distracting yourself or just being honest with people about how you feel. I have tried to get myself to use these positive strategies, and have mostly been successful.

Some people assume that when you accuse people of being manipulative that it is automatically judgemental. This is a fallacy; it is a statement of fact. I have done these things in the past and I am no better or worse a person than anyone else on this site. We all have our motivations and I think its important to understand them rather than denying the truth just because it is unpleasant. Admitting to any mistake could invoke people's moral judgement, but you can't use that as an excuse to pretend you are perfect!

I have also heard that manipulation is just people's way of expressing their pain. That another cop-out. There are constructive ways of expressing your pain. The key feature of emotional manipulation is that you are spreading that pain around, rather than expressing it.

Well thats my thoughts on the matter. I am always looking for faults in myself and trying to correct them, some would say I do too much of this! The other problem is that, now I understand that I am prone to this behaviour, I am always looking for it in other people. Sometimes I see through it, other times I only notice it after it has happened.

And, sometimes I end up looking for ulterior motives in people and they are in fact not there, they're just being straightforward.

Perhaps after I have some psychotherapy I will understand these things better.

My boyfriend says I'm manipulative and so does my mum. I think i'm viewed as being manipulative, but if I am I certainly don't mean to be, and don't know i'm doing it. Lets hope therapy can get me to recognise this in myself and maybe I can start to be a better person if I am manipulative.

My childhood wasn't that great either. My mum was ill for a few years with mental health problems also, and being an only child was pushed from pillar to post for a few years. My dad has died and I don't have much to do with my mum. She doesn't know how to show emtional support, and it hurts. I'd have loved a mum where everythiing wasn't always my fault. I shouldn't be doing this, i'm letting myself go. I think my mum genuinely doesn't like me because I didn't turn out to be the high flying successful daughter that she wanted me to be. She certainly isn't proud of me and thats sad. I think that is my problem. I was always trying to live up to my mums side of the family expectations like my two cousins. One has her own horse business, the other lives in australia and is a qualified accountant. I don't have a degree, my own business, live on benefits and just not successful in anything i've tried. I have low self esteem, need a spliff to just ignore what other people might think of me in the street if I try to get out by myself. Have no confidence, identity or anything.

Sorry for going on

Hugs to all

[Autumn1991]

omg I recently got diagnosed and I read what you put and it's amazing.

I thought I was just evil and manipulative and played games and the guy I loved with all my heart left me because of it =[

But it's a symptom

I thought I was a horrible person, I might still be, but I'm so relieved to know that it's not all my fault.

But is there a cure?

Please say so. I don't understand my diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder, I thought I was just horrid and played with people's minds.

Is there a cure?

[sundries]

well the cure is just learning how not to play with peoples minds.

While personality disorder may have some biological basis like bipolar or something personality diosrder pretty much seems to mean faulty learning, which in a way is what people mean by 'nasty person' anyway.

Using hte personality dosrder label is simply a way of encouraging recognition that the behaviour (which is termed personality) has been learned (or at least better ways of behaving have not been learned). Thats instead of just giving a global 'oh they are bad person' it turns it into meantal 'health' issue rather than moral judgement.

DBT is treatment of choice for borderline. It basically teaches you more mature ways of behaving ..... and that is the 'cure'. (this is controversial topic)

Your symptoms are only things you cant help in the same way a toddler wont know how to deal well with things. It just means that basically people try to do thier best, and when they end up being horrible this isnt intentional its just not knowing how to do things differently.

Everybody is like this but when you have soo much difficulty knowing how to deal with things that it makes you an everyone round you really unhappy, then you get told it is personality disorder. ie person who behaves badly but cant help it cos never taught any better and is therfore not evil.

[Data]

I don't think you can cure personality disorders but I have heard many people say that therapy can go a long way.

You don't sound evil at all, Autumn.

[placebo69a]

Manipulation is a way to get what you need. Everyone does it to some extent and it's nothing to apologize about. If you think you've crossed the line with manipulation just wait for the emotional storm to die out and reach out to your target. Explain yourself as best you can and don't let it get you down if they don't understand. You're the boss, even if you get overtaken by emotions from time to time. You can make rational choices if you let go of your feelings and try to reason things out.

It helps me sometimes to consider my problems as someone else's. It's much easier to avoid getting emotional when you distance yourself from the situation. Maybe this could work for you too.

As for the question of a "cure", I try and remember that cures are for illnesses. The inner workings of my mind are far too complex to change by any one method or treatment. The only way to change the way I think is to invest all my available resources and take plenty of advice towards my goal. I wish I could say I'm getting better all of the time, but I don't let the fact that I get worse deter me from this goal. I don't want a "cure", I just want to be able to lead a normal life, not to be constantly depressed, to rid myself of thoughts of self-harm once and for all, not to be a slave to my emotions and to be able to have long lasting, intimate relationships. I don't know if I can get it all, but I know that's what I want and I'm willing to work to make it happen.

I realise that if I don't try to make it happen, it just won't. If you feel manipulation is causing you or others pain make a decision to combat it. Read all you can, talk to as many people as you need, don't dismiss advice - give it a shot instead and never give up no matter the results. This is you working for yourself. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing so.

[Moonshine]

I'm very late on this topic - apologies.

I am manipulative but not to get attention, i try and manipulate attention away from me. So if someone who cares asks 'how are you doing?', because i find it so darn awkward and completely impossible to express what i'm feeling in a few simple words and i rarely want to feel how i'm doing so asking me to think about it isn't something i want to do, i steer the conversation very quickly away from anything personal to do with me and back onto them. It is so easy to do and the majority of people are so self-involved that the instant thoughts come into their mind again they will follow my lead and talk about how they are doing and i can go back to nodding my head and being 1000miles away from the conversation. Unfortunately my family are pretty wise to this now, not that it matters they rarely follow through asking again but they do comment that i'm being evasive. My parents actually told the last pdoc i saw that i was very manipulative, i'm not ashamed of this, i know exactly when i'm doing it and i know i need to do it for self-preservation. I think if i felt able to really say how i was doing, because i had enough time, i felt the person would understand etc i probably would - but i'm not going to hurt myself for a tiny question like that.

I don't know if in other circumstances i am manipulative, if i am i'm certainly not doing it on purpose like above.