Devaluing Women

[Alice]

I've read a few books on BPD and they all mention this, but none of them explain to my satisfaction why it is. They cite cases for BPD being mainly a female problem and that these women almost always find other women 'gossipy and uninteresting'. Certainly it's been true in my case - but why? Could it be that mothering has been inconsistent, incomplete and unstable and that *the mother* is not only a microcosm of *the world* but representative of all other women? Or is this too simplistic? Have to say that it feels a bit one dimensional.

[Somewhat Damaged]

Hello Alice,

I've never read that BPD has this characteristic but come to think of it I find women extremely boring and tend to get on better with men socially. For instance I forced myself to go to this party on Friday. I was with a group of women, one of which was my friend, and I really despised them , thought they were talking rubbish, had no personality, were ugly which led me onto thinking why am I here, this is such a waste of time, I just want to get wasted. Everyone is so pointless etc. Maybe this fits the trend you mention. It happens a lot with me unfortunately.

Natalie

[Betsy]

I too tend to get along better with men. altho i have no idea why. my father was the abuse one and my mother was the only source of comfort... but she was weak and couldnt do anything about helping us. so maybe somewhere inside i see men as having the power. on the other hand maybe i am seeking the approval i never got from my father. interesting question.

bets

[JTBadBug]

I have to agree, I don't feel that I am anything like a typical woman. My friends are usually men, I have very little interest in 'girlie things' like make up, fashion, hair...I just dress comfortably and keep clean. Woman....now they are strange creatures, in my office they always have pals, usually gossip, always dress strange....well lets face it the fashions are strange at the moment Anyway, I suppose I am really just saying Alice, I had never really thought about these feelings and BPD, but, certainly I fit the bill, I suppose the only other issue though is I have never been diagnosed with BPD. As for the reasons why...I am not being too thoughtful today...sorry.

Jane

[mrs tree]

I don't seem to get along with anyone really..

Most of the male friends i have had i have had sex with mostly because i think i owe it them for being my friend.

Now the only friends i have are female so don't think i fit your theory

Mrs TRee

[jai]

Alice i dont know why, but i am the same, i find bonding with women very difficult all of the time. I guess i am waiting for something insignificant to totally screw up the friendship or some random event to change their affections. I don't know why either and mostly have nt worried about it, but i have to say, whilst i don't find it easy would love to have a close female friend or two all the time. I feel like i am missing out. This has most definately been more of the case since i hit my mid thirties and now early forties. I did have many female freinds in my 20's and going into my thirties, but have emerged at this point with a few. Infact its not they are nt there, its just that i tend to back off if they start wanting to become my friends.

Strange

Jai

[Alice]

OOh. Interesting replies. It's not my theory, though, Mrs Tree - it's just something I've seen mentioned in a couple of books: I Hate You - Don't Leave Me and Lost in the Mirror. I felt that it fits my experiences extremely accurately, but I'm not sure why.

I always believe that women are going to end up hating me - normally for something I'm never on my guard against, and (possibly because I bring this about by projecting it) it happens. I also don't feel *girly* - although I do like clothes and make up, I can't do the 'let's go to the bathroom together at a club' bit, or the 'lets talk endlessly about my boyfriend' bit. I can't do the 'do I look fat in this?' Bit either. I actually now feel rather scared of women and avoid contact with them.

Maybe it's because I don't like myself, I'm a woman, therefore I don't like all women.

I Hate You-Don't Leave Me (a book I quite like) hints that it's a splitting thing - you know how you idealize someone one minute and hate them the next?

I simply wonder that if this is an extension of BPD, and if so, whether it's an innate reflex of blame towards our mothers (?)

I also feel I miss out, and obviously I'm not alone. Hmmm.

[ladyluck28]

Hi Alice: I would agree that it's one dimensional in what that had said. There are many bpd sufferers who are men too. It's not just a female disorder. I don't know if I am understanding this right or not. However there are more females than males that have bpd..

As for the gossipy part of women,..I don't know.. i have both male and female friends..both males and females can be just as gossipy as one another.i've encountered that from both sides..hope that helps some..

[Alice]

However there are more females than males that have bpd..

As for the gossipy part of women,..I don't know.. i have both male and female friends..both males and females can be just as gossipy as one another.i've encountered that from both sides..hope that helps some..

It's also well known that women seek therapy much more readily than men because firstly, we're more communicative and secondly (probably) more ready to openly blame ourselves. My husband could do with seeing someone, as could my father many years ago, but both see therapy as intolerable weakness. 'Bunkum' are my parents view of modern psychotherapeutic practice, but given any other illness, it doesn't occue to them to question the doctor.

I also wonder how much more we tolerate men being gossipy because we don't necessarily assume that they're being *bitchy*. Maybe we think 'oh that's a bit critical' or 'how observant' or (derogatively) 'you old woman.'

[carmelina]

I have the same problem with most (but not all) women. For me it is something to do with feeling substantially different from these "normal" women around me, and not feeling like I belong to their world. I am not girly either, and I have no interest in idle gossip. It's a mixture of irritation I think and separation. I don't know. Didn't put my brain in this morning obviously.

Interesting question though, I'm reading Lost In The Mirror at the moment.

Sarah x

[realscape]

I don't feel 'girly' either and literally Cannot Understand all these banal conversations about shoes and handbags that the mass media has spoonfed modern women to participate in. Has anyone noticed that since Sex And The City just about all young women say "oh, I'm just obsessed with shoes and handbags". People never used to say that when I was working in fashion 15 years ago. I am blatantly disinterested in waxing, make-up, hair products, nail things, jewellery, perfume etc.

I think people with BPD have gone through enough shit in their childhoods than to be entertained by boring, fake, unreal, meaningless conversations with other people. We are able to separte the bullshit from the meaningful. We are cynical and dissatisfied and creative and question the status quo. Unfortunately, this being a mans world created largely by and for men leaves women as second class citizens, constantly sexualised, disempowered, and with unclear role identification. That leaves women wide open to manipulation by popular media and wide open to superficial consumerism to make them feel important. I mean how many TV progs are there about young girls who are £30,000 in debt because of buying shoes and handbags. Yeeuk! They make me wanna puke.

Men can't listen to this bullshit because they don't identify with it. In the same way, I don't think BPD women (and a lot of other women) can identify with it either. Not because we inherently devalue other women but because we see no value in the other women's value systems. Maybe we don't have great family structure, strong bonds with friends, meaningful careers, safe places to live, peace of mind. But for fucks sake we know that lifelong happiness doesn't come from pink acrylic nails with little diamond snowflakes on them and a pair of £600 shoes - quite the opposite. And we're not gonna listen to anyone who wants to discuss that ad nauseum. Don't put yourself down if you can't relate to this type of crap women talk, appreciate you are insightful enough to see through it and feel sorry for people who can't see how futile and pointless their values are - they're just sad symptoms of consumer society.

[Alice]

Men can't listen to this bullshit because they don't identify with it. In the same way, I don't think BPD women (and a lot of other women) can identify with it either. Not because we inherently devalue other women but because we see no value in the other women's value systems. Maybe we don't have great family structure, strong bonds with friends, meaningful careers, safe places to live, peace of mind. But for fucks sake we know that lifelong happiness doesn't come from pink acrylic nails with little diamond snowflakes on them and a pair of £600 shoes - quite the opposite. And we're not gonna listen to anyone who wants to discuss that ad nauseum. Don't put yourself down if you can't relate to this type of crap women talk, appreciate you are insightful enough to see through it and feel sorry for people who can't see how futile and pointless their values are - they're just sad symptoms of consumer society.

Love the point of 'not seeing value in other women's value systems', but I don't want to stereotype them all into long nails and shoes. There is an argument that women have advantage over men in that they can take creative pleasure in experimenting with clothes, make up and hair without suffering pressure from society about sexual orientation. Maybe there's a borderline essence in (say) punk, goth and biker fashions because they're about rebellion, and so the creativity is more Tracey Emin than Posh Spice. Which makes it okay.

Not entirely sure that great family structures and strong bonds with friends exist for The Pink Ladies either, but they do seem able to play an essential survival game within those environments which I personally find impossible.

I resent the fact that I don't have a meaningful career though because I believe that it's left the heart of my life missing. A safe place to live and the confidence to dismiss the games people play would disolve beneath the strength of it, and for that I blame the enforced (and self imposed) condition of women in the late 20th C. Worst of all is the way that women subjugate each other. The alienation of underage pregnant daughters has traditionally been perpetuated by mothers and grandmothers, the pressure to conform to family tradition is again a matriarchal one (who do you feel pressured most to please at Christmas? Mom or Dad?) jealousy in the workplace amongst women is rife, bitter and unrelenting and even *girls' nights out* are really about competition and being a supportive escort.

You can say 'fuck them' if you like, but it seems like the easy way out. I still want that meaningful career, which I personally feel I'm not going to get until I find a way of controlling or coping with my borderline compulsion to see everyone as black and white - women mainly black (my language is metaphorical for simplicity and in no way meant to be construed as racist here).

Fed up of being told that it's *spirituality* that matters (mainly women who say this, interestingly) rather than cold hard cash, a good job and the maturity to stand on my own two feet. What's this got to do with the devaluation of women though, if anything?

Maybe it was because I was brought up by a woman who never worked, who thinks that ornaments are more important than books and who ultilmate achievement is a new pair of curtains. Can't say I like her for that very much...

[verbena]

I have three sisters who I get along with very,

very well. Maybe that is why I prefer the company

of women. Or maybe because I think women are nicer

to look at than men, are usually brighter, more in

tune with themselves and the world in general. I much

prefer the company of women. I am and have always been

more loyal to the women in my life than the men. I'm

surprised to be so much in the minority. It's not that

I'm a particularly girly girl, though I am most definitely

womanly. I don't consider myself boring in the least, and

don't consider most women I know boring either. My best guy

friends have always been my gay guy friends, and even they

are not as attractive to me as my girlfriends and sisters.

XXX

Ann

[paddypotty]

Give me a man anyday!

I agree with what realscape has to say,I just cant the words as eloquently.

Patricia

[Alice]

I came across this while travelling on the bus today. Thought that there were some excellent points made:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-2107744,00.html

[Alice]

I thought that this from Alison Wolf was interesting, particularly regarding the borderline problems with identity:

'Sisterhood, where all women had a substantial number of interests and concerns in common, is over. In the late Sixties, when I was growing up, I was told that if you asked men and women what ten words they would use to describe themselves, women always put “women” at or near the top of their lists. Men never mentioned their gender. This is no longer true. Women no longer identify being a woman as the most important thing to them. Education has become the definitive quality within society now, whether you are male or female.'

But I equally thought Stefanie Marsh and Rosie Boycott argued against Alison Wolf really well too...

All three articles are worth reading if (like me) you want to explore the relationship between BPD, gender and post-modernist, fragmented culture.

[verbena]

I am atm having medication issues, and will come back to this when things are straightened out, however I suspect I will use the same words to describe my feelings then as I am now - appalled, disgusted, shocked, horrified, revolted, aghast, sickened, dismayed, horror-struck, amazed, astonished, and curious - are any/all of the above women, and are any of the above from the United States? In either case, it behooves me to add that I am disappointed.

[Alice]

I'm very sorry, Verbena. I didn't mean to upset anyone in what I thought was a detached and honest debate. Good luck with your medication and I hope you feel better soon.

[verbena]

Alice, Alice, Alice. Do not be sorry! It is a very good

question though not greatly debated since so far I seem

to be the only one who feels as I do. I am hoping to get

a call any minute saying my medication has been delivered.

In the meantime, carry on. I am not actually hurt or upset.

The answers have just taken me by surprise.

XXX

Ann

[Alice]

I was gutted when I thought I might have in any way contributed to upsetting you.

I didn't work until I was 28 because of various things like spending too long in college - then my best friend committed suicide so I was messed up for a while. When I eventually found a job after 300 job applications (as a copywriter) it only lasted 6 months because I was bullied at work by a particularly nasty woman called Julie who was very friendly with my boss. She alienated me from her clique and spread rumours that I was 'mad.' I developed a stomach ulcer and couldn't face going into work anymore. Eventually they sacked me.

I've never been able to work in a normal job since (i.e one that involves being around people) and feeling alienated from society in this way hurts so much, but I feel totally unable to do anything about it.

I don't have any brothers or sisters, I'm adopted, I don't get on well with my mom and my mom doesn't speak to any of her own family. And I lost my best mate. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of a mess - I hope that explains a little why I started the thread and why this particular topic interests me so much.

[samsung]

I am a chick chick!!! hehe

i get along far better with woman than men

*rach is blushing because she has a soft spot for woman*

I have my best (man) friend with who i sometimes play with, but i love spending time with my girlfriends

maybe that even thou i had a though life i dont think that life should always be serious.

It sounds like from the replies. that you dont like the

'shallowness' of some women?!

I think everybody should have a friend that thinks the worst day in her life would be would be when her nail breaks, coz they keep you in touch with planet earth.

omg i am rambling. if anybody out there thinks they understand what i am saying.. can i get an amen?!

[verbena]

I think everybody should have a friend that thinks the worst day in her life would be would be when her nail breaks, coz they keep you in touch with planet earth.

Rachel, it's a miss with me. When I think of women,

their fingernails, hair, purses, hose, shoes, make-up

is not what I am thinking of. There is sooooo much more

to a woman. I do agree with one point. I do believe they

are more in touch with planet earth.

XXX

Ann

[samsung]

ann... we are agreeing. i formed my words wrong.

English sometimes gets the better of me.

sorry

[carmelina]

Despite what I said above, about what seems to me to be the majority of women... my best friends are mostly female, I find it easier to "talk" to women, I have severe trust issues with most men and even though they're fun to hang out with and less bitchy than women, they are still for the most part, superficial.

To be quite honest, I should hope I prefer women to men, otherwise I wouldn't make a very good lesbian would I

I'll say this for women... when you can find one who isn't shallow, superficial and has more depth than the shallow end of the kiddy pool, it's amazing. They make the most supportive, kind-hearted and understanding friends, and tend to be a lot more accepting.

Don't really know what I'm blabbering on about to be quite honest... I'm a little out of it right now, lol.

Sarah x

[janey]

This is so amazing and an excellent point to raise! I've never thought about it as having anything to do with BPD either, yet I have always felt alienated and different from other women. I have never been able to do the gossipy thing about makeup, handbags, fashion, boyfriends etc. I can't bear it!

much prefer men generally speaking - altho certain women (prolly ones who are much like me) I do get on really well with.

i just can't do the girlie thing. I used to even worry about my sexuality because of it, altho now I know i am a woman thru and thru... it was just that I didn't fit in with the usual type.

Janey