Devaluing Women

[verbena]

i just can't do the girlie thing. I used to even worry about my sexuality because of it, altho now I know i am a woman thru and thru... it was just that I didn't fit in with the usual type.

Janey

This part is closer to me. Tonight I have to go to a make-up (can't remember the name of the company) party at my sister-in-laws house. I'm going because I love her to death and she lives near by. Oh, it's Mary Kay. I'm going for her, but it's not my thing at all. Baby showers, wedding showers, tupperware parties are torture for me.

[realscape]

I think this is an interesting thread.

I did have a little reconsideration after my mini-rant / ramble previous post. Altho I think I made some very valid points I do now think that part of being joyful and easy in life is the ability to preen and parade and make yourself colourful and sexual, no matter what sex or sexuality you are. Possibly sign of my deep depression that I don't feel the urge to join in with all that as much as it reflects my socio-political or feminist beliefs.

I too have been literally dragged down like a wildebeast by a bunch of braying hyenas in at least two work and study environments by bitchy out of control authority women. Unfortunately, I manage to have the classic looks that most women have to strive hard to fake and I think it triggers some deep rooted subconscious jealousy in them regardless of how I interact with them they just can't get past it. If I'm nice, it makes them angry that I'm nice, if I'm outspoken, they can't wait to contradict every word I say, if I'm quiet they pounce on me cos they think I'm vulnerable, if I'm angry, they just can't wait to tell the whole world what a bitch I am, the second I put a foot wrong, they're there waiting to report me to the authorities or gang up bad feeling against me, if I don't put a foot wrong, they work hard trying to trip me up. I literally cannot win with jealous women and I cannot believe another human being would put time and effort into the pure hatred that I have had directed against me on some occassions. It took me a long time to accept that this was really happening to me and it was only when my psychiatrist wrote that some of my problems were genuinely caused by other people's jealousy that it started to properly sink in.

Regarding frienships, I find most of my female friends slightly annoying insofar as they tend to use indirect communication, manipulation, coercion, and downright dishonesty on a far more frequent basis than any of my male friends. But I am in a real man hating phase at the moment. I do value good female friends when there is a genuine honest friendship it is the best thing in the world.

[Alice]

Have to say that I can't help wondering how much of all of this would go out of the window if we had the real equal opportunity of decent careers, and not the confusion of role play. In October, my husband lost his job - this week he started a new one. What was interesting (now that I can see it in retrospect) was the way his world got smaller, his loss of confidence and his growing pre-occupation with the minutiae of everything - all of which left him like a shadow once he was made to feel valuable in society again. Not having a clear place in the world is surely contributory to the borderline situation.

Sure, there are more women GP's, and teachers - voices of respect in the past, but I'd argue that the minute jobs become largely taken by women (teachers in particular) they lose their status and turn into a snubbed profession. Women are also readily employed in lower positions in offices and in anything to do with caring. I recently asked my husband about the women who work in his office 'do they break the glass ceiling there?' 'Yeah one or two do, but in the main most of them seem to just want to sitting around talking all day.' My husband hardly talks to anyone - just goes there, does the job, comes home gets paid. 'An Indian women I was sitting next to for example' he went on 'has spent the last six months on the phone organising her wedding.' Hmm. Catherine Tate anyone?

So we are our worst enemies in many ways. Unlike Real, I don't think I was bullied at work because I'm good looking because I don't think I am. I think it was because I took myself and my work too seriously. Or something - after all, no one likes a swot do they? Another threatening race, so they are.

Something else Real said for some reason reminded me of Margaret Thatcher. Arguably the last world leader to have spades full of 'manliness' (and no - I voted lib dem). Also famous for not giving women politicians a chance - in contrast to Tony Blair and *the Blair Babes* - and so, for generation X, politics becomes more feminised - as it has under Tony Blair, but so has it lost its respect from society. So much so that more people voted in Pop Idol than they did in the last two elections.

As for best friends - oh, if only. I get on with lesbians better than I do with straight women. Could that be because they feel more confidence in accepting genuine love (in whatever form) from another woman?

Whatever else, this debate is raising the complexities associated with being a woman today. The borderline situation (in my head) is about fragmentation. The center of the self doesn't hold, and when you try to get to the core of it, it's like peeling an onion and it all seems to fall apart, skin by skin by skin. When you can't achieve full recognition for whatever role you find yourself in, it's small wonder that all that you lose self definition.

[lostsoul]

one thing i don't think has been mentioned, though of course i could be wrong (i confess i have not read every single line of the responses here) is the issue of competitiveness amongst women, and i mean, normal women, as well as borderline women.

women are pretty predatory creatures in my opinion. men do not look at other men and assess them quite the way women look at other women and criticise. we have to be the best looking, best dressed, most successful... we take validation from successful comparisons with other members of our own gender. if we fall short, we must distance ourselves from rival members whom we have judged superior to ourselves, so that the gap between us is less evident, and therefore less disruptive in finding a mate.

example. if there were two rooms, one full of women who were on average more good looking than us, and one room where the women were on average less good looking than us, which room would you choose to hang out in (there are of course lots of handsome men in both rooms)?

i suspect that pretty unanimously, we would all choose to hang out in the room where all the 'less good looking women than us' were making their play for the handsome men. it makes sense. in this room we will stand out as the more good looking, the 'better choice of mate'. we will be more successful than the other women in this room. going into the other room would yield less success, because there is more competition.

now i'm not saying that good looks are the ONLY way to bag a mate. of course, other factors come into play, like, god forbid, personality.

BUT, there are two factors which i think make a good case for us NOT banking on personality to win us a man.

firstly... men will intially approach a female because of how she looks. if the look is not right for him, he will not approach. personality needs an approach - how else will he find out about it other than through conversation?

secondly, if you have a personality disorder you are unlikely to think, hey my personality is so great, i'll win them with that.

so what do you do? you flirt. you flirt and try to make out you're totally normal. you flirt and try to bamboozle a man with your sexuality. he will be so caught up in this he won't notice you'r a bit nuts. in fact he'll probably get a bit turned on that you're a loon, or different, or eccentric, or 'out of control' and 'unpredictable'. are these traits not what attract men to borderlines like sirens to the rocks? i guess it's a kind of personality, but it always seems to be rooted in a sexuality. a sexual personality?

flirting... it's just integral to how i communicate. everything's gotta be a joke and a stroke you know?

being interested and responsive to someone else. just keep talking about them or god forbid their attention will turn to the real INSIDE you and then you're done for.

with women you have no flirty defences. it's straight to the REAL INSIDE YOU

this is harder for me to act through than it is with men. hence, socialising with men you know you're not even going to or want to shag, is lots easier than socialising with women. you can always flirt with a man. always.

i don't see it as a case of being a girly girl or a tom-boy. i think it's just wrong to say that you don't get on with women because THEY are girly girls. there are so many non-girly girls, as this thread alone makes amlpy evident. no - it's more than that. and not just a borderline phenomenon. this is a female phenomenon in my opinion - i have heard it from so many women, most of them non-borderlines.

at the end of the day, what do you need women for? do you need women as much as you need men? men are pretty handy to have around. they can protect you, feed you and give you children and help you look after them. comparitively, women are a bit redundent until you have children, and then, maybe you are more free to have them as friends, because you have found a mate and had kids, lessening the problem of competition.

it's not that you don't want anything from women. of course you do - solidarity against men, for one. but EVOLUTIONARILY speaking, mating is such a priority, and anything seen as competition in finding a mate, must be minimised. for most women, that is, i guess, other women. and this also explains our pre-occupation with fashion accessories. we want to make ourselves as pretty as possible for men. at the end of the day, you can pour scorn on that as much as you want, but the girls looking good are the ones getting laid and with the nest choice of partner. so scorn away but be prepared to be single lol. i used to scorn, but now i see it as a 'if you can't beat em join em' thing. and hey it can be pretty fun too. it's just natural is the way i see it. how else could the media target women so effectively? they are not inventing something new, but mewrely tapping into a pre-existing innate behaviour.

[verbena]

To me, this is all fluff and nonsense. All of it. After reading the two articles, I'm more sure than ever that this is an age/culture thing. In the US, especially in the midwest, almost everybody, men and women volunteer or donate on a regular basis in some way. Women of all ages bond and support eachother both personally and professionally because we know how hard it was to get where we are. We donate our professional clothes so that abused women can wear them to job interviews. We answer phones at the shelters for battered women. We call the police when we hear or see abuse. We are watchdogs for eachother. We are happy to see eachother. There are over 100 employees working closely here. Less than ten are men. My best bosses have always been women. Somehow when they speak to me they seem to realize my eyes are not on my chest. We take up collections when someone has to be off work a couple days with a child in the hospital. We go clean house for the mother with two who is pregnant with twins and can't do her own. Last night I went to a Mary Kay make-up party-not usually my favorite thing, but I met new women, and there was a lot of laughter. My experience has been that women chip in and help eachother to enjoy life. Men suck the life out of women. Yes, they do have their good points, and I certainly wouldn't want to imagine life without them. But they definitely take more than they give, while women give more than they take. And please, have any other AMERICANS other than Bets answered this?

[lostsoul]

i think what we're observing here ann is a culture divide.. i would like to hear from other americans too

x

[verbena]

Is ktodee still in the hospital?

[Alice]

Hmm. Well, the books still go on about this and none of 'em explain it...

Maybe they should publish the answers in this thread. Some of them extremely interesting with very good observations. I don't know about anything else, but I've certainly felt an inability to talk about this honestly - possibly until now, and possibly only because of the realtive anonymity of the internet.

Comparing an over-populated, highly competitive, tense city environment such as London to anywhere where people have more time for each other is going to seem odd. I was talking to a guy who had spent time in Manchester recently, who said that he coudln't handlle the angst and pressure of living in London anymore. So I don't just think it's a cultural thing (although it may well be - Americans have always seems kind and generous folks to me). It's perhaps something that is more acute for everyone (Borderline or not) who live in a big city.

[lostsoul]

alice, there is most likely a lot of truth in the observation you make about cities... whatever gender, people don't have as much time for each other in a place like that. i live in london, and there are numerous websites springing up all over the place specifically for people to meet each other for social activity and conversation. a frikkin website! something has gone seriously awry with the fabric of our society if we have to log on to get some simple, good old human contact, just my opinion.

[jai]

wow, half an hour later and im still here!! great points made and an interesting thread.

I am wondering though, whether its not just ok to feel less comfortable with certain people in society. There are sub groups within subgroups for every tier of our world. Whether it be sport, love, arts, leisure, holidays, work..for example for me, i hate hotel holidays and if i can afford to go away either , visit a friend abroad or put on my back pack , book a ticket and find somewhere to stay on arrival. Now i have suggested this to other women in the workplace when discussing holidays..not one of them was nt shocked, horrified and did nt seem to get the fact that for me this is my nirvana and real break..

I dont want to eat 4 pre paid meals a day, dress for dinner and not to be able to hire a motor bike to get where im going , cos the group might not want to.

I guess what i am saying, is yes we are borderline and yes we are different in our outlooks but does that have to be a negative, after all we are all women infact sharing something in common, is it less valid cos its not about makeup, or clothes...

I too dispise the importance society is placing on image over content. It has always done this and will continue to do so, the fact that i have naturally avoided that sterotype i always thought was about me.

When it comes to work, here is where i have to agree with many of the points made here. I dont work now and feel like a sore thumb where ever i do go. Infact have been asked too many times if i was gay, i think that is because somehow,not being a girly girl and always being the one left behind at break time means that i am different somehow. I feel it, i see it, and i am outside what goes on in the powder room!! Its horrible being allienated from our own gender. For me finding a way to deal with this and be able to work again would be good.

The other aspect of this that i wonder about is whether the fact our mothers maybe did nt protect us and bond well with us leads us to identify with men more? Also, identify then with the abusing sex? For surely this is a contradiction it itself? If it was a woman that was nt there for us, then it is not unreasonable to find as many ways to allienate ourselves from them. Sometimes for that reason i hate the fact that my most trusted freinds have been male and that ultimately i wonder how much i am playing out some scene that has yet to be resolved.

ps..talking total crap most likely, but just wanted to share.

Jai

[lostsoul]

not crap at all jai... makes much sense. the last paragraph is especially insightful.

it's interesting that most bpds speak of either a dysfunctional mother (i mean emotionally/mentally dysf) or an abusive father. you rarely hear that the dad has been crying all over the place and cutting and being hysterical and bulimic or something, while the mum comes home late at night drunk and then beats up on the kids. i'm guessing that does happen too... but is not the trend or norm.

also typically, the mother will fuck your head up by the things she does while she is PRESENT in your life. whereas the father will fuck your head up by being somehow ABSENT from your life, or by NOT doing things (excluding abuse)

when it comes to avoiding the parent who fucked you up, it's not always logical. it's almost as if you are choosing a partner with the characteristics of your parent, so that you might work through whatver issues arose with them through this new person... as an adult.

for me, it was my mum that fucked me up by being too involved and too present and well, too mental. my father was absent emotionally and did not protect us from her insanity. this has been reflected in my relationships. i have completely avoided unstable people, but they have all been drug addicts and emotionally deprived / unavailable (excepting current relationship). they have all had issues with intimacy too.

so it's like i found my dad in my boyfriends... but that never worked out, so now i am with someone with all the emotions of my mother, but who has them tamed and controlled and they are only ever used for the positive.

i think part of my avoidance of female-female relationships prolly is down to some internalised distrust and dislike of the female psyche (bec. of the rel. i had with my mum) and no doubt this plays a part in why i cannot like myself for being a woman. i continually try not to do typically female things, but then do them anyway (cos i'm female) and then i have to berate myself and beat up on myself for being a woman.

now i'm talking crap lol!

[jai]

(((((((Losty))))))

Nah,not crap, just glad someone else picked up on that point...thankyou..i really wish all this stuff were really simple and i can rationalise myself into not feeling, not caring, not hurting....but this has not helped me...cos wham i am back to square one the minute something world shattering happens..

Back to the original point, yeh, our Mums have played a big role in this outcome and i think your personal experiences most likely echo so many peoples here.

Its good to find a piece of the jigsaw.....aint it!!

still dont know where to put the bugger tho!!

Jai

x

[lostsoul]

yes and as you say it doesn't help in the long run anyway so maybe we should all just take up chess or something and stop coming here lol

anyway. let's just brush that cutting cynicism aside for a moment and try to look on the bright side.

anyone got a lamp?

no?

bugger.

well anyway. it occurs to me, going back to the original thread idea.. that in fact what IS utterly true about bpds is that we DEVALUE OURSELVES, and as most of us are women, that ties in nicely with the devaluing women bit. maybe it's as simple as that. we devalue ourselves and we're women.

wow. nominate me! nominate me!

love losty mindy xx

[chickenways]

hi there girls,

well us blook might feel slighly undermined there .... hoooooo ...

well in my case i find that i often find the only company of men ( like me ) an little borring after a while .... like , they're too manly ( as opose than too girly )... not that funny and often into sports... well never he less i have a lot of male friend a bit like me who i don't get bored with .. but i have a tendency to be more confident with my girls mates than with my my blok mates...

so maybe there is something to do with looking into the other side ... the difference is what might attract ...

don't know not sure ... but it just striked for a min ..

let the toughts think in ..

and yeahhhh ... spread a bit of love.

xx

chicken

[chickenways]

flirting... it's just integral to how i communicate. everything's gotta be a joke and a stroke you know?

being interested and responsive to someone else. just keep talking about them or god forbid their attention will turn to the real INSIDE you and then you're done for.

with women you have no flirty defences. it's straight to the REAL INSIDE YOU

i think you might have hit a spot there ..

chicken

[lostsoul]

chicken

your first post cracked me up... hoooooo indeed!

ah dear, i have been to the gym tonight and have absolutely nothing interesting to say, other than that i went to the gym tonight, and let's face it, that's not very interesting is it! ....hooooo....

oh yeah i just wanted to say hello to this chicken that i've seen pecking around the forums... welcome duuuuude...

the love is always spread evenly and you must have your share...

and also, interesing indeed what you say nabout men being too manly and into sport! wow! just wowwwwwwsers man. that's too cool.

thank you thank you thank you!~

xlostyx

[realscape]

Maybe Fox'l come back now there's a Chicken?

Slightly off topic. But crosses my mind there's Fake and Unreal and therefore Superficial and Boring in both sexes. ie. Chantelle, winner of CBB. Not being funny, no particular hatred of her, but jesus would you want to get stuck on a deserted island with her? "Oh, my GAWD". A bit like the girl I met on a flight once to the Maldives. She was going to an ultra expensive remote island for her honeymoon which had an aqua centre and swimming pool - because she 'didn't like sand'. I mean, she could have saved at least £3,000 by going to CentreParks. Anyhow going back to Chantelle, apparently she won because she was SO REAL. So I don't know what you would call someone with natural hair colour, no extensions, no fake tan, no bleached teeth, no acrylic nails, behaviour appropriate to actual biological age. This is the world we are told is socially correct to live in. Right, so this is why I would rather stay home with my very real houseplants and very real cat.

Probly guys are the same when they go all unreal about football and sex talk and macho posturing. Yeah, and their little TV prog called "test drive my girlfriend" which makes me wanna smash up the production company offices.

I don't think we necessarily devalue these people, we just can't connect with them because they're a bit unconnectable with. Unless you're the same and can have a great chat about handbags in which case, you devalue women who carry placcy carrier bags. Its just different circles of interest.

Also, I think we bdp do devalue pretty much EVERYTHING anyway.

[constantly_confused]

Interesting topic. From my opinion I think the way the book approached the subject was fundamentally flawed (ooh.. long words). It implies that all or most 'normal' women behave in a certain way & that not to means there is something wrong with you. In fact I suspect that if there really is a connection between the two, its not because you are not womanly but because society has developed this whole concept of feminity. Who says we should have to wear make-up or love gossip? I certainly didn't & most of you didn't. If anything is the cause, its not that you are abnormal but that you are pressured to be something you are not. This in turn I feel was one of the main causes of my depression & perhaps some of you may feel it has had an effect on how you think/feel/behave? Not sure but correct me if I am wrong lol. Also society focuses on men's strong points & women's weaker points, e.g. we always imagine a woman when talking about victims of crime & the dangers of going out alone, yet young men are far more likely to be attacked & just as vulnerable when alone. Also when a man tells a woman to do something its like giving a command, when its the other way round, its nagging (which sounds a lot like begging). To conclude I think we live in a society that exaggerates & exploits sexual differences that are actually very minor. Yes females are slightly weaker on average & have to work harder to maintain muscle strength, yes we have pms & hormones that influence our moods... but so do men... i.e. testosterone... We both get angry & upset but it is acceptable for a man to express anger & not pain, & the reverse for women even though in truth I suspect we both feel the same when going through these changes. Anger reflects power & tears reflect weakness. Thats only because we assume they do!

Anyway let me know what you think. Hope I'm not being too radical lol.

Personally though, I do feel that you guys are individuals in a good way & should be proud that you can be yourselves. It is better to have one friend who will accept you the way you are & understand you, than hundreds but where you feel you are always hiding your true colours.

Sorry for going on so much lol.

Take care. x

CC

Maybe Fox'l come back now there's a Chicken?

Yeah, and their little TV prog called "test drive my girlfriend" which makes me wanna smash up the production company offices.

I'm definitely with you on that one!!! :D

[muse]

put simply im a man who has only female friends, 95% of ALL MEN are ARSEHOLES

[realscape]

I used to be 'one of the boys' Tomboy. 90% of my mates were male.

When I got clean I read in some AA stuff that women should have women friends because male/female frienships are slightly codependent / avoidant / sexualised blah blah. So then I dumped all my old mates and tried REALLY hard to hang out with the women I already knew. Big mistake. The women I already knew were as dysfunctional as myself and all the guys. But now, after a long time, I have made some newer frienships with three or four women and they are 'proper' friends. I don't feel scared that these friendships are wrong or meaningless or disrespectful. We support each other and we're honest with each other and they have sustained over a good period of time now. I feel properly connected and comfortable with these people. It has taken a long time.

Therefore, my point is, its not about male or female. Its about the type of individual person. If you make dysfunctional friendships they will be continued with men andd women. Changing how you view yourself, other people, and what friendship is, is the only way to make better male or female friends.

[verbena]

Constantly Confused said "Also society focuses on men's strong points & women's weaker points"

Constantly - this is a wonderful observation!!! Thank you!!! I just got to work and you have made my day!!!

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Ann

[constantly_confused]

((((((Ann))))))