'you Enjoy Being Depressed'

[Sandoval]

That was what my friend said the other day. Do you think I seem self pitying or something?

I really do not enjoy feeling the way I do...

[badger]

You are not self pitying. Why the hell would someone think that anyone would want to feel like this! Some people just don't understand, they think it feels the same as they feel when they are having a bad day. This is her problem not yours.

Does your friend normally say stuff like this? Maybe she's just not feeling so great herself right now or maybe she just doesn't understand, have you talked to her about how depression feels for you? Maybe tell her how you feel about what she said, she may not have really thought about what she was saying.

But whatever happens and whatever her reasons, you are not self pitying and I understand that you don't want to feel like you do.

Take care

Badger

[Sandoval]

I just get the feeling she thinks she's an expert on everything. Whatever happens to anyone, it happened to her first.

She's got a good job, a bf, she's beautiful and got her own place, I have nothing.

Urgh I feel stupid...

X

[constantly_confused]

Clearly she's no expert if she thinks everyone copes the same through these things & if she thinks people choose to be depressed. Whatever she has does not make her superior to you or in any better position to tell you about your illness.

Take care. x

CC

[Vorpalblade]

Just ignore her hunni, her comments aren't worth getting upset over.

[Stephanana]

Hello Possum,

Argh, how on Earth can your pal say you enjoy being depressed??? I could understand gaining pleasure from the feelings of mania, yay, they are brilliant, as are the initial stages of having a good drink or other indulgences...but clinically, suicidally depressed? It is Hell. If only they truly knew the deep lonely suffering and pain of inner torment, plus the guilt and shame of trying to control it yet failing time and again...i have had it all over the years...what have you got to be depressed about, think about poor so n so, she really has a good excuse, pull yourself together, don't overeact, oversensitive, drama queen...and on it goes.

Oh to implant my mind into an ignoramus' cranium for a day, so they can experience the daily torture of bpd, depression, melancholy, confusion...perhaps you you experiemnt on your chum just so she can truly know and understand:)

xxx

[badger]

Sorry but she sounds like an arrogant tosser to me, she's certainly no expert. Just because she has those things mean nothing, she sounds like a very shallow superficial person. People who behave like that usually have a thousand insecurities they are hiding but the difference between our insecurities and hers is that ours aren't true and hers probably are.

Just ignore her or laugh at her cos that's more fun.

You have no reason to feel stupid, look at all the post here that are all basically saying the same thing that it's her that's stupid not you.

And if that doesn't help then next time you see her do a silent but nose meltingly rancid smelly fart and then wave your hand in front of your nose with a look of sheer disgust on your face and shout "FARTED!" to passers by whilst pointing at her.

x

[whhyyy]

aymen i hate this darkness.......... i fecking loath it sometimes when it kicks me to the floor and i'm left paralyised..... however... i found that when i was in therapy last year that my depression started to fade and i felt so lost without it...... i realised that my depression gave me so much pain that i knew i was alive when i actually felt dead inside.. i missed it and didn't know how i would cope without feeling the pain..... so i can kinda understand where ur friend is coming from............ it depends what they mean? maybe explore it with them............ what they think ur depression means to you, if it they think it gives u purpose, a sense of identity and individaulism? as losing this would mean a loss of self? but i can't deny that this is a very judgmental remark and they need to know how u feel about them saying this.......... talk and express..... always the best medication to being pissed off and unrightful judgement.........hugs, me x

[kirsty545]

how can she say that i hate feeling like this im sure you do to

[redemption]

She seems really ignorant and really uninformed about how your depression really is in reality for you, maybe she thinks that by having this so called depression gets you attention and she is somwhat jealous of that..

Unless she's been close to where you've been and how u feel and felt it for as long as u have, she has no right to say such things, and try not to be fazed by people like this, I don't know why, but they can be so cruel and oblivious to others people being sensitive about certain topics, or just dont care where our sensitive regions lie.

Anyways, ... sorry for dragging on, but ur still battling with depression and i applaud u for carrying on fighting the illness..

take care always

[verntheconfused]

She sounds very inconsiderate of the way you're feeling. Sorry.

I don't enjoy feeling this way either.

[gardenia]

I am sad for you that people can think of you in that way.How can we be happy that like.I do not know until I wake up what the day will have, and I certainly do not like being this way.

I think I would offended too.

Unless you know you never will.People do not understand mental health until they have been there.

[SilentAlarmXIII]

I'm not entirely sure I'd disagree with your friend. I'd even say that your friend must be a very good friend to say something like this.

Sympathy is not always a good thing.

In some ways, depression is something that can be enjoyed, if only for the simplicity, egocentricity and (often) attention it brings. I don't mean to say it's pleasant -- that would be moronic and foully wrong -- but it is a great exercise in self-indulgent thought patterns and on that basis it is a very addictive behaviour pattern.

I'm sure we all know depressives who bounce from crisis to crisis, caught up in the adrenaline of their own despair, their panic and self-hating dramas. I know I've done that for certain, and I couldn't swear I'd never do it again. There is a chemical thrill to floating in the voids of one's own mind. It's a gripping numbness as you cease to care for anything outside yourself and only, instead, focus on yourself.

Images of death, destruction, weeping families and friends who could have understood you but almost wilfully chose not to do so, not to meantion the whole "I could have been a contender" mindset when contemplating personal failure.

It's a horror film for one, but it's all the better if there are people around who will reaffirm the expericence.

Depression, to other people, does look self-indulgent. It looks like someone taking themselves far too seriously, and the assumption is that they must be getting something from the behaviour -- just as an alcoholic gets something from alcohol. They might not be getting a *good* thing, of course, but that is another issue entirely: all an addict requires is to get enough to allow a given behaviour to continue. Depression is very difficult to shift because it's so self-referential: it's a gross kind of narcissism. When depressed, all our thoughts and failures tend towards it, and that only feeds it more.

I'd add that being depressed is much easier than living life. Life has lots of vague things in it: friends and relatives you can't rely on, shopping, cleaning, new (and terrifying) people, fears of success, fears of failure, fears of death (and taxes).

Depression is like a thick, bitter sponge cake that sucks all those worries away. You don't have to try when everything is pointless.

I hate the damn thing, and if it dares show its face in my mind again, I'm going to beat it to a pulp. My time is running out and I ain't got time for that.

So... if someone tells you you're enjoying your depressions, don't dismiss them out of hand as if they are evil, credulous fools who hate you and are trying to wind you up. They're probably folk who are equally as clever as you, and while they may not have *your* experience of the world, no doubt they've been on the planet long enough to work out that 1 + 1 = 2, and maybe a couple of things besides.

It could be that they care about you more than your little black cloud would ever let you know.

My best wishes, my best loves,

SAXIII

[silas]

I think SilentAlaramXIII has hit the nail on the head with that post.

I doubt your friend meant anything insultive to you.

I know my own depression as much as I hate and despise it, I know it's who I am and it's a part of my self for so long now. To say I love it or admire it might be a bit too much of a stretch, but in hindsight I would say I respect it. I think my depression fuels much of my creativity, and poems, songs I've written over the years would not be possible if I didn't have my depression to fuel it. To put it quite simply I consider myself to have a love/hate relationship with my depression, and I can't put it anymore clearer than that.

Consider this, there is a documentary on Tuesdays on BBC2 with Stephen Fry about BiPolar. Well he asked every person with Bipolar he interviewed if he could present them with a button that would remove the disorder and return to normal. Not one person (well bar one) would consider pressing it.

[SilentAlarmXIII]

I agree with everything Silas said, but would like to add that should I meet either him or her I will suck out and consume his or her brains because he or she has said something for which I wanted to find the words, but could not.

SAXIII

ps. Socks rule.

"That which does not kill me doesn't half bring on my gammy knees."

[silas]

Well I would of said SAXIII that you said it better, but anyways lets just say that together we both have the ideal answer and no brain sucking or mad, unsafe brain transplants will be necessary

*note to self, start signing name again at bottom of posts, to prevent confusion with other posters over gender*

"That which does not kill me doesn't half bring on my gammy knees."

I think Freddy Nietzsche just turned over in his grave!!

Take Care,

Keith

[realscape]

Hi Sandoval

I think your friend is not very understanding of depression and is offensive. Nobody but nobody who suffers depression would choose it as a lifestyle.

I strongly disagree with Silent Alarm and Silas's take on the situation. Anyone who truly suffers depression would know how painful and isolating and frustrating it is and how we do everything possible to put on a good front whilst secretly dying inside.

I appreciate there may be a certain type of illness where a person receives attention or sympathy or suchlike by playing the 'sick role', however, that is widely understood in psychiatry and psychology as being a disorder of attention seeking, malingering, or hypochondria. Nobody who is doing that type of behaviour would be dxd with depression. Playing the public role of 'tragic tortured soul' is a form of narcissism, not a form of depression. I doubt that many of us here are doing that. And even if some people are, then clearly, they have an underlying illness. This is a subject of much discussion in psychiatry and I have read many books about it.

On last nights Steven Fry documentary, he and some others stated that they would 'choose' their manic depression, however, this was on the basis that the manic phases were enjoyable and fulfilling and energising. I think it could be seen there is a form of narcissism at play there. Perhaps people with manic or euphoric illnessess may get some sense of enjoyment but there is no enjoyment in feeling hopeless, dispairing, and misunderstood, in my experience. Nobody gives me positive feedback for feeling like that, nobody gives me attention for feeling like that, and depression has destroyed my whole life. I have lost everything to it. I did not choose that.

x Real

[SilentAlarmXIII]

With respect, the point is more subtle than that, realscape.

Depression is characterised by an intense inwardness. In a sense, it's where we pay attention to ourselves. The example of "putting on a front" typifies this: it's a failure to engage in a particular external moment because one eye -- the inward eye -- remains anxiously guaging one's own mood, while other senses are constantly scanning for signs of affront or insult.

I think you're wrong to try and draw a thick dividing line between the narcissistic side of depression and whatever you seem to mean by "depression proper". Also, I think you're ungenerous by characterising this aspect of depressive illness with the "act of the tortured soul". Certainly, there's a degree of melodrama in depression; one of its characteristics is a complete lack of realistic perspective, and I'd be stunned if you could say you didn't recognise that in a great deal of people on this site.

I agree there's no "joy" in suffering depression. It's a horrid experience. However, there is a satisfaction to be had in knowing that if you keep down, keep low, you're not going to have to get up again and face the vicissitudes of an ordinary world, where you come across expectations that you do not believe yourself capable of meeting. If you have a fragile ego, that defensive posture counts as a "win". It's not a win you can build on to allow yourself to move forward, but it is a victory of sorts. It's painful, distressing, useless and unpleasant, is likely to alienate everyone around you over time, but it's a tactic that some minds -- very much including mine -- find themselves prone to if only to avoid the risk of further exposure to pain.

Depression is an obliviating condition. You free yourself of responsibilities, even of the rules of ordinary sensible conduct (I'll take this \ I'll drink that \ I'll do this \I'll eat that \I'll fuck that) on the basis of "Because I'm depressed", which implies: "Because I'm worth it."

Depression is a mode of narcissism where every aspect of your life becomes slaved to that godawful singular mood.

It sucks. Then again, when you're not dragged down into its vortex but merely spinning around it, it can be a perverse kind of motivator, because you'll do almost anything to escape.

I think, anyhoo.

Best wishes as ever

SAXIII

[realscape]

Hi Silent

I am very aware of the many different types of mental illnessses but I don't feel you are talking about depression, perhaps manic-depression? I feel like the constant self-monitoring self-consciousness that you talk about isn't so much depression but is a form of anxiety or possibly form of narcissistic illness or personality disorder. I'm not saying I don't suffer from that myself sometimes because partially I do. I think that is what Alice Miller illimunates so well in her books about childhood abuse. That the desire to please abusive or neglectful or encroaching parents can become so overwhelming that we become anxiety ridden and narcissistic and dysfunctional cycling between gradiosity and dispair. That can result in the 'drama queen', perfectionist, tortured soul, behaviours usually alongside eating disorders and addictions. I'm not undermining those behaviours because they are real and they are painful and I also have them alongside depression. But that is not depression per se and is not recognised by MH professionals as such.

The type of depression that I feel mostly is not that type of thing at all and which my psych has dxd as 'dysthiymia' is actual depression plain and simple. I read an awful lot of books about mental health problems, psychiatry, psychology, etc ever since I was a kid because my mum is schizophrenic and it has always fascinated me that someone can completely lose their mind. I have never read of simple depression of the emotional flatline type being described as a form of narcissistic type or attention seeking type of behaviour. Unlike manic depression I have to say which seems to be firmly rooted in narcissism.

The type of depression that I feel when depressed is just total nothingness. No engagement with anything. No interaction, not even self-monitoring or anxiety. Just a complete deadness. I couldn't care if I lived or died. And although I generally want to die at those times, I don't feel even enough effort to act on it. I don't get up, I don't wash, I don't brush my hair, I don't answer the phone, I don't go out, I don't contact anyone, I don't feel able to verbalise anything or understand how I'm feeling. I let my plants die, I feel that I must re-home my cat for his own sake, I can't even log on this site when I feel like that. I make sure that nobody knows I am doing that so it can't be attention seeking. For example, if someone texts me or leaves a message saying they're worried why they haven't heard from me, I make sure to text them to let them know I am fine, just very busy or have gone away so that they won't worry about me.

I feel that type of depression is rooted in total lack of self-worth, absolutely no self-esteem, the total loss of ego, and complete inability to feel a role or belief in anything or any meaning in life. I believe it is a suicidal state and I believe it is rooted in not being loved as a baby. I genuinely don't believe there is anything self serving or narcissistic or attention seeking about that state. It is a very quiet and silent death. I have never read anything in my extensive and wide reading that any type of psychological or psychiatric believe system considers that type of depression to be self-serving or narcissistic. If I could give everything I have to not fall into that black whole of death, I would give it. It is not something that one can choose. And such a high percentage of people who suffer from it do die from suicide or drugs or alcohol, how can that be self-serving? The only thing that plain and simple depression serves is suicidalness. Whether one acts on it or not, it is a form of suicide and is a state of death, not life. To be so deeply implanted with a death instinct that one cannot have any control over it is very scary.

I do not feel that you understand depression, I feel that you understand something else, that you perceive to be depression but which isn't. Anyway, it is good to discuss these things regardless.

[SilentAlarmXIII]

Dear Realscape,

I have to say that indeed, we are talking about the same thing, at least from my perspective. Your description of depression is passionate and completely accords with my own experience.

I know I'm not quite getting the subtlety of my point across. I am limited, though I also have read books!

"The type of depression that I feel when depressed is just total nothingness. No engagement with anything. No interaction, not even self-monitoring or anxiety. Just a complete deadness. I couldn't care if I lived or died. And although I generally want to die at those times, I don't feel even enough effort to act on it. I don't get up, I don't wash, I don't brush my hair, I don't answer the phone, I don't go out, I don't contact anyone, I don't feel able to verbalise anything or understand how I'm feeling. I let my plants die, I feel that I must re-home my cat for his own sake, I can't even log on this site when I feel like that. I make sure that nobody knows I am doing that so it can't be attention seeking. For example, if someone texts me or leaves a message saying they're worried why they haven't heard from me, I make sure to text them to let them know I am fine, just very busy or have gone away so that they won't worry about me."

When I'm in the state that you so accurately describe, I call that withdrawal. You cut people off, you don't face them, don't look after yourself, don't have any pleasure in life, don't feel capable of engaging with anything.

You ask -- quite rightly -- "How can you put that on a narcissistic spectrum? There aren't any other people involved!"

To which I answer, "Precisely!"

Depression is a movie for an audience of one. You're there. You're watching yourself. Your thoughts are endless, self-critical. self-destructive perhaps. You don't hope and you don't fear and it's the best you can do to keep everything at a level of numbness. You don't care about things, not yourself, not your plants, not your cat (well, everyone cares about their cat a bit -- we're not monsters!).

The narcissistic point is that you are only behaving for you. It is an extreme example of selfishness.

"But what about telling people that you're all right? That can't be selfish!" you ask.

"Like hell," I say. "You give people the impression that you're okay because you are terrified that if they find out about your real state, you'd lose their respect\friendship\love\whatever. You'd feel it as an intolerable -- fatal -- blow to your pride if you were exposed as being the fraud you are. It's more important to you to keep the impresison up that you're a competent human being, so that when this passes you can slide back into place."

That deceit is selfish. It only benefits you. I'm afraid that I don't buy the idea of "not wanting to worry them" as an altruistic motivation: in a depressive mood, altruism is one of the first instincts to pop, to be replaced with a kind of defensive aggression -- typically against the self, but equally likely against anyone who tries to interfere with the self.

"I feel that type of depression is rooted in total lack of self-worth, absolutely no self-esteem, the total loss of ego, and complete inability to feel a role or belief in anything or any meaning in life. I believe it is a suicidal state..."

Totally agreed.

"...and I believe it is rooted in not being loved as a baby."

Agreed, ish. I'd amend it to: "not being sufficiently loved as a baby \ child".

"I genuinely don't believe there is anything self serving or narcissistic or attention seeking about that state."

It doesn't have to be attention seeking, but it's perfectly self-serving. It's an extreme avoidance of life and the risk of further exposure to pain. As for attention seeking: you have your captive audience, the one who will never, ever let you go -- you.

The attention-seeking side might be seen as a corollary to the lack of ultimate love you describe. Attention seekers (or rather, "people in attention-seeking mode", because attention-seeking is a tactic in exactly the same way that depression is) are looking all the time for validation, approval or -- if all else fails -- recognition. They're trying to glut up on love, albeit a twisted interpretation of love, a shoddy fuel in comparison.

You'll gather that I suggest you can be an attention seeker AND a depressive. AND you can be both at the same time. It all depends on what mixture of tactics your mind happens to alight on at any given point.

Attention seeking is a tactic to avoid depression! It's driven by the fear of depression, and there's no worse fear than the fear of fear, I'm afraid.

"If I could give everything I have to not fall into that black whole of death, I would give it. It is not something that one can choose."

I agree to a degree. Depression limits your capacity to choose. However, it does not wipe that capacity out. You are less free when you are depressed -- massively so, in fact -- but you still do have degrees of freedom. (Feeding cat, faking things to friends etc.)

And such a high percentage of people who suffer from it do die from suicide or drugs or alcohol, how can that be self-serving?

Because drugs and alcohol provide a short term rise in mood. The messy, stupid, animal mush that is our brain decides that it's worthwhile to use that option.

As for suicide, well... in all fairness, not all that many depressives die from it. In fact, I wonder whether overall house-bound depressives might actually have a longer average lifespan -- in actuarial terms -- because they don't venture onto the roads so much.

The only thing that plain and simple depression serves is suicidalness.

No. It serves aversion from risk of pain. Try to understand what it's trying to do in its own terms, not in yours. Your depression is a different kind of beastie that wants different things.

Whether one acts on it or not, it is a form of suicide and is a state of death, not life.

Suspended animation, certainly.

To be so deeply implanted with a death instinct that one cannot have any control over it is very scary.

Y'know, I agree, and that bugs the hell out of me. When I get stressed, I get suicide switches flipping out all over my brain until I'm rendered non-functional as a human being. I don't believe depression serves this instinct to destruction, though: I think it merely facilitates it. I know there are plenty of depressives that don't have those kind of bloody irritating compulsive thoughts. However, I'd add that having had them for 20 odd years, most of the time they merely bore me these days.

I do not feel that you understand depression, I feel that you understand something else, that you perceive to be depression but which isn't.

I am only grateful for the sure knowledge that if you knew me, and heard me, that you would accept that we are actually understanding the same thing. I think we differ in that you believe that depression only manifests in one particular way, whereas I see it as a more cunning devil that will, given half a chance, manipulate its way into your life and wreck it.

Anyway, it is good to discuss these things regardless.

It is very good indeed. You'll see that we agree on a lot. I think I've looked at things a little more deeply from the perspective of selfishness. Try thinking about it in similar terms -- just as a thought experiment; I shouldn't expect anyone to agree with me without some serious meditation! -- and see what you think. It's a remarkably coherent system!

My best wishes as ever,

SAXIII

[realscape]

Hi SAXIII (I will call you that instead of Silent if it is what you prefer)

I understand what you're saying.

The problem is, regardless of anything technical, how the hell do we get out of it? I agree that what my depression is avoiding is engaging with life and risking having feelings. It is deliberately constructed to maintain numbness and distance from other people that is a fact.

From what I read, most people with depression end up prematurely dead through various acts of either suicide, addictions, reckless behaviour, unhygeinic or dangerous housing, lack of self-care, involvement with abusive partners, or criminal acts. I would say that all of those things have nearly caused me to die at some point, so it is probably true that our lives are shortened than lengthened. Not to mention the notion of metaphysics which would say we bring cancers and illnesses to ourselves through 'dis-ease' of thinking. Although I have noticed being very depressed has allowed me to avoid needing most things in life so its a very ecologically sound and economic way of living.

Anyway, left to my own devices, I will completely refuse to get better from this thing. I am not capable of, or willing to, 'rescue' myself, and nobody else is rescuing me. So what do I do? Will something eventually 'click' in my head and I'll change through boredom or maybe hitting some phase of alcoholism or drug addiction and be 'rescued' through that? Or should I take the effing Mirtazapine that the shrink has prescribed and I am actively avoiding taking?

Sorry, I have totally hijacked this thread.....

[Sandoval]

Hi Real, you haven't 'hijacked' the thread, I've been reading yours and others posts, and they're really interesting. My main thought when I posted this was that I feel ashamed of what my friends think of me.

Well, what I percieve.

To think that people think I'm attention seeking, and perhaps pathetic makes me feel even worse, it's just a downward spiral.

I know my friend didn't mean to offend me, but I don't think she really understands how I feel. I don't like telling people how I feel, not in 'real life' anyway.

I have hardly left the house this week, I have been lying in bed. It took SO much effort to wash my hair yesterday.... things like washing my hair seem totally pointless. Which makes me feel disgusting.

Eating seems pointless also, and I just can't do it.

Sometimes I think - maybe I'm not 'mentally ill' .. perhaps I'm just trying to persuade myself that I am, as an excuse for the fact I can't handle life.

Does anyone understand?

[thelostgirl21]

i dont think its so much we like being depressed we just feel we deserve to be, welike to feed it to make it worse, sg listening to sad music trying to push yourself over.

[realscape]

Hi Sandoval

I totally understand. I totally relate to the total disengagement thing, the lying in bed, the whole notion of not really feel sure if I am actually 'mentally ill' or whether I am just avoiding life on a grand scale because I can't actually hack it. But that in its own right is a form of emotional illness.

Healthy happy functional people do not lie in bed all day avoiding life and worrying what other people think of them. Sorry to put it so blunt. But part of our problem is being able to cross the lines of normal and then not normal and not really understanding if what we feel is completely abnormal or whether everybody secretly feels like that.

To have the negative judgements of people (or the worry of negative judements) compounded by the 'professionals' adding a whole bunch of new stuff on top is not helpful in my opinion. For example, most of my friends have clearly stated to me in the past that they cannot relate to my desire to disengage, they cannot understand why I waste my intelligence and talents and good looks, they literally cannot 'get it'. They do worry about me or feel concerned that I might not do something stupid. But not in a way that they feel annoyed I am impinging on them. Sometimes, they try to confront me and try to ask me about it or query it or just enquire about it. But never ever in the history of time has one of my friends accused me of being attention seeking or manipulative. That is just some horrible other stuff that gets thrown into our dx by the professionals and is harmful and hurtful and judgemental and unhelpful in my opinion. It is the fact that it 'doesn't sit right' with some of us that makes us feel further judged and further disabled and misunderstood.

Some friends are not very good friends in my experience. Some 'professionals' are not very professional in my experience. Life is shit and pointless in my opinion and how the fuck anyone gets out of bed every day and brushes their hair and does all that stuff, I dunno, what FOR?

We're on the same page. We can at least discuss it and try to help each other here?

x Real

[ladyluck28]

Some people are ignorant..just ignore her comment..nobody wants to be depressed..depression is a hard thing to climb out of and takes a lot of work..((hugs)))