Bpd & Religious Belief

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Not long ago a psychotherapist who also a Christian I knew tried to link that I suffered from BPD to me being an atheist. The theory being that as I have issues about trust it was no surprise that I didn’t believe in the supernatural or the mystical. The truth is I’ve no time for the metaphysical period but I reached my conclusions thorough rational thinking in that there’s ain’t any proof to convince me.

There’s another thing which I thought was a complete double standard in that if an individual claims to be hearing the voice of Che Guevara they’re considered to be nuts yet if they hear the voice of God they’re considered to of found salvation. So I’m little perturbed by especially the mentally ill finding salvation in religious belief. Obvious I’m talking about the Abrahamic religions here (Islam, Christianity & Judaism) as most here if they do have religious belief probably subscribe to those religions. Before anybody tells me yes Buddhism doesn’t necessarily rely upon the belief of God or Gods.

Anyways if anybody does find comfort in religious belief maybe they’d like to share their thoughts or if they’re like me a non believer they’d like to explain how they reached that conclusion.

[NotaGirl]

Are you and atheist or an a-theist, that is; do believe truely that there is nothing behind the world and universe but the randomness of chance and fortuitous collision, or do you find conceptions of God proposed by Religious systems unfulfilling, confusing, contradictory and self defeating so you have abandoned the formal and systematic conception that are aready formulated in favour of another?

Personally I find true atheism to be very bleak and desperately without hope, and to find that someone who are a true atheist was also prone to bouts of depression and dispair would not surprise me.

To answer you question directly: I am a Christian, not on the grounds of rational argument like the obviousness of design, or weight of evidence. Instead once simple incident changed my world.

I knew of Christiaity, new a few religious types, but my knowledge was not much and I was certainly not seeking - being religious would have seriously cramped my party style.

I carefully planned my suicide, I assembled 3 fatal doses worth of paracetemol based medicines, i took them out the packaging and disposed of that in industrial bins away from my place.

Then on the day, when i knew no one would come round, I took each dose 30mins apart, along with the sleeping tablets I had got, and laid down ready not to wake up.

I woke up 7 hours later, and in a mood went straight to the bar and got drunk out my head.

And when I finally came round - the world was a very different place to what i thought it had been.

On that day 3 people I knew came to see me, 1 was a friend, was was a friend of that friend, and one I sort of met around about the place. All 3 Christians, all 3 came in and told me that I looked better than they had expected me to. I was taken to the doctors, and my functions were normal. 4 days after takin nearly a 1000 different tablets, most with paracetemol - my liver, kidneys, blood values were in normal range! Cholesterol was as usual bit off!

My 3 friends as they became - told me what I had done, told me they knew just knew - and came round to help because of that, and help they did, exactly when and how I needed it.

And by the way - its when you you talk to God its called praying, and when he talks back its called insanity!

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Are you and atheist or an a-theist, that is; do believe truely that there is nothing behind the world and universe but the randomness of chance and fortuitous collision, or do you find conceptions of God proposed by Religious systems unfulfilling, confusing, contradictory and self defeating so you have abandoned the formal and systematic conception that are aready formulated in favour of another?

Personally I find true atheism to be very bleak and desperately without hope, and to find that someone who are a true atheist was also prone to bouts of depression and dispair would not surprise me.

I believe in rationalism, humanism & scientific progress.

Just because we don’t understand the complete workings of the universe doesn’t mean we won’t know. I mean weren’t so long ago Christians believed those with epilepsy were processed by the devil, science has now given us a rational & logical reason as to what can cause epileptic seizures. Just as science in time will find rational conclusions to things we don’t quite understand now.

[LiveWire]

Faith is not so much about a scientific understanding as it is about the way of life. There are many much more able to take you through the "proof" that Jesus walked this earth and did the things reported in the Bible than me.

I was once watching a program a few years ago - a man who was a scientist and a Pastor held up one of the most revered scientific journals published in the 1960's and the Holy Bible published 2000 years ago. The scientific journal was already outdated and obsolete. The Bible remains true and as applicable today as it was when it was written.

You see man is constantly searching for answers. Each new generation is able to "see" a new perspective making the previous obsolete. The words written in the Bible are written by the hand of man, but by the authority of God who is unchanging and forever the same, therefore His words remain just as applicable in our lives today as they did yesterday as they will tomorrow...

Everyone has trouble choosing heaven or hell - few will admit it. It is a daily struggle of life... God has given us the book of life, Jesus has set us free, but it is your choice to accept their gift.

[rebeccaborderline]

Im a lifelong atheist (and yes I have periodic depression! But I dont link the two), and sometimes I find religious evangelism quite unsettling. However I consider myself quite a moralistic person (or at least I try) on humanitarian lines, and a lot of these views tally with a lot of religious views ie "Do unto others..."

I also love churches, the architecture and silence, and choral music, but you'd be hard pushed to get me into one for a service. I'll be the one outside having a fag....

rebeccaborderline

[pgiggle]

i do belive in god, not in the sense of god as the church belives in it tho

im sure there is more to this universe than we will ever know

i used to be a very devout christian, but it stopped making sense to me personaly, i coulndt feel god, didnt belive he listened to mine or anyone elses prayers, not trying to provoke anyone here, its just a personal viewpoint

However the moral code that all the major religeons preach is something worthwhile, i decided that a good moral code is my guide thro life. i dont need some patriarchal figure laying a guilt trip on me from thousands of years ago to live to a good moral code. i respect anyone who has strong belifes in religeon, but i find the concept of god being an all seeing and all knowing And peacfull and forgiving.........you get the idea, it just dosent add up to me in any way

[NotaGirl]

Rebecca - think of evangelism like this

If I knew of a man giving a single pound coin to anyone who asked him for one, and would give you a pound coin everytime you asked

and I didnt tell you about him - what sort of person would I be.

Well - the gift God gives is a lot more than a pound coin!

You see even if the Bible didnt specifically command it, we would be pretty ropey human beings not to tell you what we had been given if you could be given it too..

You know I dont like lots of bits in the Bible, and God, scares the crap out of me, but I believe its the truth. God to me is the forgiver of the New Testament, but he is the same one of the old.

And I firmly believe that people dont get the message because people are afraid to say it: the message is Believe in Jesus and accept salvation or you do not get the gift of eternal life.

which in the brutallest terms means - you are going to be in an eternity separated from God - or Hell - however you concieve of that.

Ive lost one friend to that fate already too, and thats painful.

I do think too many people get the wrong message.

Original sin doesnt mean adam and eve did wrong so you are punished as well.

What it means is - adam and eve brought the knowledge of good and evil into the world, and with that knowledge came the capacity to to evil things and misuse that knowledge. Because people are people we do misuse that knowledge, to sin - or to miss the bullseye or the mark (to go back to its root in archery) means we cannot get close to God - it gets in the way - it does deal with it, because of the nature of God.

And of course there is more, and I would love to debate some parts of it with God and ask why did you rig it that way - but to me the Bible tells me - this is the way its, God is this way, things are this way, this is what happens, this is what you need to do - like it or lump it.

Bit like having a parent really - they give you two choices - tidy your toys or stand in the naughty corner and you think bloody hell I just want to carry on playing - I dont like those choices.

Well God is the parent, we have the rules, and one day we may even get to understand them, but right now we wont always like it.

God is not the "nice" fluffy, it will be okay, everyone is forgiven, and nice things happen God that many preach, and it annoys me that people are turned away because the Truth isnt taught, and preachers etc stick to the "nice" bits.

[NotaGirl]

Ziggy - we dont even understand fully how food is digested!

And just because people make mistakes doesnt make God wrong.

Blasphemy is saying something the Church thinks will offend God .... always separate man.

Genesis is not a technical blow by blow account of creation so you can use it as a handbook, its a summary of the essentials - God made it, made you, put you in it, and a few other bits and pieces.

The rest was layered on by man, and it isnt in the Bible.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

because people make mistakes doesnt make God wrong.

No man is just wrong in believing in God

Blasphemy is saying something the Church thinks will offend God

like I gave a shit as far as I'm concerned the cunt doesn't exist

[NotaGirl]

Ziggy - Ziggy:

I have a single proof that God exists - can you provide an alternative explanation?

Can you provide a proof just one that God is absent - because all the evils of man, war famine, cruelty and the like are all accounted for and within the framework of a Judeo-conception of God and "his" existence.

It doesnt have to be irrefultable, conclusive, let us say cast a pebble to pave the road ....

Because I know as do you - irrefutable and conclusive proof cannot be obtained for or against - but we can at least pave our respective paths.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Its true you can't entirely rule out the existence of God but I’m 99.99% sure God doesn’t exist & if he did I’d find a way to kill God for the sake of humanity & for the sake of sanity.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Oh here’s a question the God squad have never answered if God is benevolent why am I disabled?

[paddypotty]

I guess we have to allow for personal experiences and how those decisions might shape our beliefs.

I had an Irish catholic childhood,the guilt and the fear that I was forcefed helped me decide that I didnt want to be a christian.

Patricia

[NotaGirl]

Paddy - yes a lot of people who have been brought up a Roman Catholic will say the same.

however, one day I hope that you may see that Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are worlds apart - to the point where one can make a convincing case for Roman Catholicism being very heretical and encouraging such non Biblical practices as false idol worship (for a start)

Personally I believe the practices of the Roman Catholic Church and many of their teachings, especially the Mary worship as being completely Non Christian in nature.

Ziggy, what is benevolence.

When a child is set limits and disciplined they cannot see why, when they are forced to wear things they do not like, or recieven punishments that hurt they do not see why. We are but children in terms of eternity.

I can no more explain you being disabled as anyone else, nor can I explain why I have dyslexia, or a degenerative chronic pain condition or even BPD.

Being disabled makes you no less a person than anyone else, and no less eternal - life is about the bigger picture and while we stuggle now,it is fleeting in the grand scheme of things.

None of us can know the mind of God.

However, Ziggy - I will not convince you of the existence of God, nor I suspect will I elicit more than the predictable responses you have given so far - they are not original nor very provocative, they are the stuff of undergraduates the world over.

If you were to meet God, you would not kill him, you would be overawed and feel rather stupid, maybe along the lines of a man who says grass doenst exist would when presented with a golf course in the English Countryside! Not only does it exist - but its very big and there is a lot more to it than you ever thought possible!

[NotaGirl]

Ziggy - instead of being rather predictable and asking why is there bad in the world - ask yourself the question: why is there good.

Because really the ultimate question is why is there good in the world!

[paddypotty]

Ive heard the whole false idol worship and the issues with Mary so very often and to be honest its tedious and not the main problem with the Roman Catholic Religion,if anything its comments like these that have caused so many issues in Northern Ireland but thats another debate.

I do not believe in any man made religion and wont be forcefed any particular proganda for any religion.

I respect peoples decisions and their belief systems but likewise its nice if people can afford me the same respect.

Patricia

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

If you were to meet God, you would not kill him, you would be overawed and feel rather stupid,

overawed hardly I never get excited about anything including sex

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Ziggy - instead of being rather predictable and asking why is there bad in the world - ask yourself the question: why is there good.

Where?

I don't see good

I see the human condition

people using each other for their own agenda

I won't believe there's any good until I feel goodness

[NotaGirl]

Ive heard the whole false idol worship and the issues with Mary so very often and to be honest its tedious and not the main problem with the Roman Catholic Religion,if anything its comments like these that have caused so many issues in Northern Ireland but thats another debate.

I do not believe in any man made religion and wont be forcefed any particular proganda for any religion.

I respect peoples decisions and their belief systems but likewise its nice if people can afford me the same respect.

Patricia

Apologies - I meant no disrespect, so I am sorry if any offence was caused, it was not my intention.

Nor would I forcefeed anything, I am always hopeful that people keep their minds open to all the possibilities and never stop asking questions, I may be proved very wrong tomorrow morning and all that I believe to be true today could be wrong.

Its happened to me before - and it could happen again.

In a way its pretty selfish of me, I never want to be at a friends or family funeral and feel like I did 5 years ago ...

[paddypotty]

No problem Not agirl,Im backing out of the debate,shouldnt have been in it anyway.

Patricia

[rebeccaborderline]

I quite like this thread, its making me think...

NotaGirl, I see your analogy about the man with a pound coin, but if I say "let him give it to someone else, I dont need it" would you respect my desire to walk away? I respect peoples religious beliefs, but get irritated when after politely declining to engage, they contine to push their agenda.

If I believe in anything, I believe in self-determination and personal responsibility; I have no need of a paternalistic (or maternalistic) deity to guide me on the path between right or wrong, I have learned that myself since childhood from society.

When I was a teenager I explored christianity, and came to this conclusion; it is egotistical to believe in God, and it is egotistical not to believe in God. I do not believe in God and feel no lack or need of religion in my life.

rebeccaborderline

PS I wondered why I was using a capital letter for God; its convention, and to be polite

[NotaGirl]

So ziggy - no such thing as a selfless act- because all action by its very nature satisfies a need in the doer - or contrinbutes to their feelings about themselves - and thus is always in some way self serving?

Doesnt mean there isnt good, what if my agenda is to make everyone as happy as me, its self serving because I am happy and I will be happy by making others happy, but why I have I chosen that instead of say, killing people with brown eyes.

Why in model after model, and time and time again, pure competition and self centredness lead to the reverse outcome of their intentions, and co-operation and controlled competition lead to desired outcomes

Thats Weakth of Nations vs General Dynamics

General Dynamics wins every time! It gets the intended out come, where pure unfetterd competition is always destructive - why is that.

Would you care to explain, why is there more contemporary evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar, why do contemporary records confirm the Biblical account so well, including the sightings of Jesus after his death. Because at the end of the day Christianty hinges on Him and the reality of Jesus, if is who he said he was, then Christianity is on the button, and the problem we have there is - he said what he said, he lived like he did, died like he did, the stuff happened.

All we have to do is take it from there, his body was not in the tomb despite the presence of a Roman Guard (thats a number of troops btw), that is reported in non Christian Sources, as are reports of sightings, and pentecost is recorded in non Christian source material.

So where does the account break down ?

[NotaGirl]

Rebecca - you can walk away and not get the pound coin.

But, does your walking away and not taking it make it not exist or be true?

I believe in self determination and personal responsibility - i decide for sure.

But, Christianity doesnt say God decides what you will do, its says he knows.

Surely you have known someone and known in a sitaution exactly what they would do before they did it - parents certainly do.

Well, God knows that about all your decisions, and all your life - it doesnt mean you havent determined it, just as your mum knowing you were going to take the chocolate she left out without asking meant you didnt decide that either, and you are no less responsible.

Hope that makes sort of sense.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

So ziggy - no such thing as a selfless act- because all action by its very nature satisfies a need in the doer - or contrinbutes to their feelings about themselves - and thus is always in some way self serving?

Doesnt mean there isnt good, what if my agenda is to make everyone as happy as me,

I don't deny that just not been my experience & until somebody knocks on my door & goes 'hi Ziggy I want to help you' I'm not going to be able to say I've experienced it.

[NotaGirl]

Ziggy, you are telling me no one has ever offered you help?

at any time, of any sort?

I belive lots of things, but that I dont, i do believe it may not have been wanted or recieved well but I find it hard to believe its never been offered.

For a start you have seen psychotherapist, maybe a doctor, people like that - why do you think they have the jobs they do ? Surely some people pick caring professions because they care, and thus try to help people?

Or do you mean help always had to be asked for and thus it was not good because of that? In which case you mean because of the absence of telepathy and mind reading among humans there can be no good ?