Bpd & Religious Belief

[sonny]

No one can prove that God does or does not exist. Have your beliefs and be happy, but keep an open mind.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Ziggy, you are telling me no one has ever offered you help?

at any time, of any sort?

I belive lots of things, but that I dont, i do believe it may not have been wanted or recieved well but I find it hard to believe its never been offered.

For a start you have seen psychotherapist, maybe a doctor, people like that

For a start you have seen psychotherapist, maybe a doctor, people like that...who are paid to care

I'm talking about ordinary people helping each other etc

[NotaGirl]

I'm talking about ordinary people helping each other etc

So would my taking the time to reply count as helping, I could have dismissed your post as pseudo-intellectual posturing, and replies as evidence of immature thinking from somone who likes to envisage themselves as a modern day Satre, but who in reality is nothing of the sort, lacking insight, orginality and creativity.

Instead I chose to engage, and have promoted you to flex and think, and should you choose, you could take the opportunity to engage back, rather than try to slip neatly off by picking at small portions on the periphery, and trying to reducto points made by using nothing more convicting than a personal representation neatly reforumulated when it unravels.

If you are really what you claim to be, someone who wants to provoke thought, and an indiviudal, step up from medocrity and pesudo intellectualism - dare to think stand on the shoulders of giants to get perspective.

I may not be unique nor original - but I see no shame in basking in the great thoughts of generations past, applying their knowlege and insight, thinking the great and worthy again is intself a genesis of its own.

Individuality is not the clothes you wear, the car, the house, nor any material posession, it is the very traffic of your mind and your expression, it is your relation to the world - stop, engage, and step up Ziggy - free your mind from the confines of what you think it should be and dare to be it.

Go on :)

[LiveWire]

Oh here’s a question the God squad have never answered if God is benevolent why am I disabled?

God is not one to interfere in our lives. He lets us choose our own paths and sometimes we have pay the price for those who chose for us. Besides, even with the strongest of prayer should God decide to help at a given moment in time, why would He help someone who has spit in His face and openly rejected Him? The truth is, God does not deliver us from our struggles, but He does give us the tools with which to do battle against them... Should you ever find Him you will see the world completely different than you do now... This I assure you. Your selfish view will be no more and you will no longer worry about your being disabled because you will realize how small and insignificant it really is...

[Tammi]

wow, this is a little hard core, i thought this was a discussion of our religions, but i find all it is is an atheist fighting back against the dominating power of christians. how about we all be a little more open minded and remove religion from this place, it has no connection to our mental illness, and i find as always it just leads to arguements.

[NotaGirl]

Tammi - interesting perspective.

Ziggy asked the question, and so far it would appear that only I have consitently question back. I hardly represent a dominating power. By numbers the this topic would represent the general picture of athetists being outnumbered by Christians, and surely Ziggy of all people would know that.

Personally, I havent seen any sense of fight back at all, Ive seen lots of ducking the question and avoidance, but actually no engagement.

Maybe you see Christians as dominating because the athetist position is being so weakly put. Im sure Richard Dawkins would be more than able to engage with any of the points raised.

The point of any Religious position is that by default there will be those who hold it strongly and those who hold it weakly, and those who voice are more likely to be those who hold it strongly. So when the question was asked it would be expected that a strong voice would be heard in reply.

I have tried to engage in order to full the explain your position part of the question, I do not want to sermonise so instead have tried to engage on the level of questions, because too many people thing that proof by rationality and demonstration is how to show the basis of faith.

Faith is, at the end of the day faith is a personal lived experience, in my world I live the Christian experience, and i am a Christian because of the experiences I have had. This means like most of use I take things on face value - when you pick up food in the supermarket you take it on trust that the manufactuer or packager has put in what they say they have, thats taking it on faith.

Well Religious faith is the same, you trust from experience that things are true and so - lookig at arguments from design and such is the same as talking about reputation and other products from the same manufacturer, or saying that you know you like the ingredients as well.

You will happily take the product and if it delivers you are happy, if the person puts the product back then they only have the packaging to go by.

Unless you take the step of faith you can never really know. Well so it is with Christianity, unless you take the step of faith, then you will never really know.

The steps are simple, repent, turn to God and be baptised.

everything else comes after accepting - ive done things wrong and yep Im sorry, Jesus is my saviour and I want to be God, and then the symbolic entering of his family.

being a Christian makes life harder, more difficult and the struggles multiply, but this time the project that is your life has the end in mind.

As Stephen Covey says - begin with the end in mind - well Christians have the opportunity to do just that - because they have been told what the end is!

[coco]

Im a christian and I love God to bits and he loves me. I know this because he created me and he created you out of his own image and likeness. He loves you! Dont doubt it, just believe!

When you have a moment on your own talk to him. Its not insane its true unconditional love.

God knows what rejection is as jesus suffered it on the cross. He was abused by the people he loves. He will never reject you.

Try it. Try and open your heart to the one who loves you so much.

Love Eva x :bigarmhug[1]:

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Ziggy - free your mind from the confines of what you think it should be and dare to be it.

Go on

Hey my mind is free & my eyes are wide open upon observing the world. Maybe what I report is a little unsettling, maybe a bit challenging. Yeah that what I report doesn’t fit it with the illusions people live under, that in fact its eroding the lies they believe. Things like they think they care about people when the truth is they don’t give a shit. If we faced reality & were purely honest then het the problems of the world could sort to be solved.

[NotaGirl]

oh Ziggy, i am so disappointed.

You dont need eyes to see you need vision!

Objective reality is really just someone subjective reality - it all depends on the tool used to measure and the question asked.

I am saying, stop asking the questions you think you should ask, stop asking the same questions, ask new questions, or ask the really good questions that have been asked before so that you can stand on shoulder of giants!

We can make reality, and we can make reality happen ourselves - thats the thought provoking truth most people dont address - nothing new in that one.

The question is - what do we want that reality to be, and how do we make it.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

stop asking the questions you think you should ask, stop asking the same questions

Well when I adequate answers then I’ll stop asking

what do we want that reality to be, and how do we make it.

Reality is what it is the truth most people don’t want to face the truth therefore its hard to answer the question you ask being as I say. However one thing I’d like reality to be & that’s free from any influence of superstition & mysticism as well as the dwelling on metaphysics.

[icicle]

Hi everyone, pretty interesting topic I think. I am an atheist myself, but I think it would be great to have such a strong belief in religion, I find the thought of someone watching over us, and the whole 'everything happens for a reason' to be really comforting, but I just cannot find it in myself to believe that this is true.

One of the things that I struggle with is this : if we say that the Christian God exsists, and he is the only God, and if you do not accept that he is real than you will not be allowed to enter heaven (and these are the beliefs that are stated strongly in the bible) then why does He give some people more of a chance of being able to enter heaven than others. What I mean is, if you are born into a Christian family in England or America, then you will be most likely be brought up with a Christian faith, and therefore more likely to believe in this God and spend eternity in heaven. However, if you are born into a muslim family in Pakistan say, then you are less likely to learn about the Christian God, and therefore less likely to believe in him, and as a result less likely to spend eternity in heaven. It seems to me that some people therefore have a huge disadvantage from the offset, like having a race where the person who comes last is punished horrifically, but one person starts the race five minutes from the finish line, another two hours away, and another 300 miles away. I feel that if there was a god and he said that it is your choice as to whether you accept me or not, he would at least ensure everybody was given the same basic tools at the start, otherwise why are some people 'favoured' and others not before they even arrive on the earth?

[NotaGirl]

icicle - thats a very good question.

And you know no one can give you the definitve answer.

But I can tell you what i was told: how do you know they dont get the chance, maybe they have the easiest choice of all - because they get it after their physical death, so that they already know something we dont.

The Bible says everyone gets the chance - and so we have to believe that everyone gets the chance, when, where, how of that chance, we dont know, but we know they get it.

And along with other things, that will have to do because its all we are getting.

[rebeccaborderline]

Icicle, Im an atheist, but for me the anwer would be; most religions are a guideline of how to live your life, and have similarities eg thou shalt not kill. So it doesnt matter in my view which denomination you are as long as you try to live a good live according to society and morals.

Its all the extra bits for me which cause the conflicts eg believing your god is better than my god; you must believe what I believe or else; and confusing the religious and the secular eg in matters such as dress code, rights of women etc

rebeccaborderline

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

if we say that the Christian God exsists, and he is the only God, and if you do not accept that he is real than you will not be allowed to enter heaven (and these are the beliefs that are stated strongly in the bible) then why does He give some people more of a chance of being able to enter heaven than others.

Because you're expected to enslave yourself to the word of God & Christians believe The Bible is the word of God therefore you must follow the standards it lays down.

[Wills]

This is my own perspective on religion and God, as you may know i am a compulsive gambler and overeater and goto GA and OA. In Ga there is no mention of God or religion bar the serenity prayer but OA talks about God as we understand him alot and for me this took alot of getting use to and alot of perserverance and alot of understanding people in these rooms for me asking questions such as Ziggy has asked.

I do believe now that i have a connection with a Higher Power but its still evoliving and i have gone from a very closed mind set to a slightly ajar mind set after reading a book called 'came to believe'

My life is shit as it is so why not entrust in something else....they can hardly make it worse

Will

[NotaGirl]

Because you're expected to enslave yourself to the word of God & Christians believe The Bible is the word of God therefore you must follow the standards it lays down.

What you percieve as slavery many see as freedom.

In fact the Christian message is regarded as very subversive in some places - because of the values it promotes.

One of the most comforting things for me, having BPD, is that if God can forgive me, then I can forgive myself - no need to keep being guilty. I am free from having to conform to the perception of others, I am validated as me, by God. I live my life trying to be the best person because I want to, I like the look of trh promises made to me in the Bible.

Many people confuse Biblical teaching for instructions and rules - most of the new testament doesnt lay down rules, what it says is essentially - from belief follows action, and these are the actions of those who believe.

I want my beliefs and actions to be consistent ... and hence use the guidebook to inform them.

And yep that allows me to feel good about myself, the whole experience allows me that, and allows me that when the world around me denies it.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

the Christian message is regarded as very subversive in some places - because of the values it promotes.

That's because you're compelled to be enslaved to the Koran or some other shite holy book.

[Faerielight]

This is my own perspective on religion and God, as you may know i am a compulsive gambler and overeater and goto GA and OA. In Ga there is no mention of God or religion bar the serenity prayer but OA talks about God as we understand him alot and for me this took alot of getting use to and alot of perserverance and alot of understanding people in these rooms for me asking questions such as Ziggy has asked.

I do believe now that i have a connection with a Higher Power but its still evoliving and i have gone from a very closed mind set to a slightly ajar mind set after reading a book called 'came to believe'

My life is shit as it is so why not entrust in something else....they can hardly make it worse

Will

i am a pagan

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

This is my own perspective on religion and God, as you may know i am a compulsive gambler and overeater and goto GA and OA. In Ga there is no mention of God or religion bar the serenity prayer but OA talks about God as we understand him alot and for me this took alot of getting use to and alot of perserverance and alot of understanding people in these rooms for me asking questions such as Ziggy has asked.

I do believe now that i have a connection with a Higher Power but its still evoliving and i have gone from a very closed mind set to a slightly ajar mind set after reading a book called 'came to believe'

My life is shit as it is so why not entrust in something else....they can hardly make it worse

Will

i am a pagan

Don't tell me you're also a Goth

If so you're in my cool books B)

[Wills]

This is my own perspective on religion and God, as you may know i am a compulsive gambler and overeater and goto GA and OA. In Ga there is no mention of God or religion bar the serenity prayer but OA talks about God as we understand him alot and for me this took alot of getting use to and alot of perserverance and alot of understanding people in these rooms for me asking questions such as Ziggy has asked.

I do believe now that i have a connection with a Higher Power but its still evoliving and i have gone from a very closed mind set to a slightly ajar mind set after reading a book called 'came to believe'

My life is shit as it is so why not entrust in something else....they can hardly make it worse

Will

i am a pagan

And your point is?

Will

[NotaGirl]

the Christian message is regarded as very subversive in some places - because of the values it promotes.

That's because you're compelled to be enslaved to the Koran or some other shite holy book.

remind me - whats the holy book in China ?

and what is exactly is the state sponsored religious position that has missionaries dissapear, and die alarmingly regularly?

[Tammi]

please do not try to convert me again, i find it highly insulting. i dont want to be told to open my eyes and see god, and i shall not gratify anyone with a capital letter. i opened my eyes and saw science, proof and reality.

[celticgirl]

Thanks for starting this thread Ziggy,very thought provoking......

I believe there is something greater than us,but i am not comfortable calling it god,nor can i prove what i believe.I have had really unpleasant experiences with evangelical Christians trying to 'cure ' me of my sickness and drive the devil out of me,all because i spoke the truth about my childhood abuse and was suicidal...the whole thing was intimidating and confirmed to me the potential damage of religion,or rather how easily it can be used as an excuse for wrong doing.....

My father was brought up as a Roman Catholic,and hates religion....unfortunately i believe his own experiences with this contributed to my being sexually abused by him and others......Catholic symbolism was present in some of the abuse.

I believe in a strong moral code,but i have set that for myself.....if i followed my family example,it would be a path of denial,silence and abuse.I feel deeply uncomfortable with anyone trying to 'push' their lifestyle or belief to me......one of the most prominent figures in the church local to me is seen by others within the church as an upstanding memeber of the community,yet he bullies and controls his wife mercilessly,whilst denouncing anyone gay/unmarried living with a partner/not a regular church goer as not being Christian......something about double standars springs to mind?

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

[

remind me - whats the holy book in China ?

There are some political philosophies which can be just as zealous as religion & they to have their book of doctrine. The Fascists have Mien Kemp, The |Communists have Marx, China specifically has Chairman Mao’s little red book. ?

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Thanks for starting this thread Ziggy,very thought provoking......

Its good to hear at least one person appreciates what I have to say