Faerielight Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Thanks for starting this thread Ziggy,very thought provoking......Its good to hear at least one person appreciates what I have to sayim not a goth .. am a bit of a hippie really !! but not a flaky one.. iv explored lots of spiritual realities over the years and my spirituality is eclectic, but i absolutely hate organised religion.. i think its no better thaan a cult.. i dont like christianity as my bf was sexually abused by a priest for years in the name of god. also my last two boyfriends were western buddhists and they acted like they were brainwashed and preached so much crap to me(i recently discovered the western buddhist order is recognised as a cult). i like paganism because it recognises the sacred in everything. i think spirituality is to do with love, not about preaching how other people should live or what they should believe in, and not promoting guilt in any way. oh i could talk for hours about this stuff. at the end of the day, everyone has the right to believe in what they want and live how they want. but it pushes my buttons to be told to follow a particular path. my mums best friend was a born again christian and she told me i was evil and had the devil in me because i was angry about the abuse inflicted on me and because i wasnt ready to forgive them i was going to go to hell. what a load of shit!! all that did was make me turn my anger inward and hurt myself and made me believe even more that i was a bad person. having said that, i have a friend who is a christian and it helps her enourmously and she quietly gets on with things and doesnt try to convert me. so im not saying i dont respect peoples choices in spirituality or religion, just that religion scares me and i dont like people preaching. i think the essense of all spirituality is love and finding peace within ourselves. enough said. ivy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotaGirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 please do not try to convert me again, i find it highly insulting. i dont want to be told to open my eyes and see god, and i shall not gratify anyone with a capital letter. i opened my eyes and saw science, proof and reality.I hope this isnt me you are talling to, ? Because I havent intended to convert anyone, I cant do that, I may open a door, plant a seed of thought at best, may get someone somewhere one day to give an idea a run round their consciousness - my aim is not to convert.So sorry if I have come accross that way, my only intention is to present my faith and the truth and reality of the faith that I live in. I am a Christian, I am part of a community of Christians in my Church, and we are members of the wider Christian community. I want the reality of my faith as I live it and experience it, the teaching and such like that comes from my experience to be shared because to me they are Christianity.I am deeply saddned by the things done in the name of Christianity I really am, they were one of the reasons I had nothing to do with Christianity for many years, I was brought up agnositic and was in my 20s before I considered Christianity because I couldnt get past the atrocities to which it was associated, including abusive priests.But I did discover that the Bible does not condone so many of the things done with its name attached. And some of the things, like casting out demons etc, are within specfic contexts, and there are specifics to them that people are abusing and misusing the legitimating power the Bible has to justify what they are doing which in reality is not justified or warranted.Im not saying people dont mean well but they are usualy best not speaking when the havent got a clue.Ivy, i am so sorry for what happend to you, it was wrong for that person to have said that an presented to you with those terms. Someone who does not know what they are doing should not have been talking to you, because to be angry about having been abused is a normal reaction, and someone who has been abused has to come to terms with that on their terms. For some its realising being abused does not make them a bad person, or that were not abused because they were a bad person, and that their reactions are normal and legitimate to what happened to them.But, for everyone who has suffered something at the hands of another person like abuse then the time comes when they have to let go of the hatred and anger because it is hurting them, making them suffer and making their own life less than it could be.Forgiveness is not forgetting, or making them your best mate in the world, it is dropping the malice and vengefulness of the anger you have towards them. And it is the hardest thing in the world to do - and no one can make you do it, you have to let go yourself. .many Christians havent let go ... many have not forgiven.As for going to hell, how the hell do they know! Passage to heaven and hell in the Christian framework is not dependent upon action or works, it is dependent on beliefs and acceptance - which only you know about, or shall we say you and God of course :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Passage to heaven and hell in the Christian framework is not dependent upon action or works, it is dependent on beliefs and acceptance - which only you know about, or shall we say you and God of course Why is passage to heaven dependent on beliefs? And what beliefs?? If there is a heaven, surely it doesn't depend and believing in any God or accepting beliefs predicated on that.If you accept the premise that God created us and you only get to go to heaven if you accept and love Him, then it would seem a vain and very selfish God indeed. I'm not an atheist, by the way. I just don't accept the rules that mankind has come up with to control others under the name of any God. A wise man once said: 'cut out the middle man' that is, you don't need any book or preacher. 'i think the essense of all spirituality is love...' I agree with ivy.Sonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faerielight Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 hi notagirl, no my post wasnt intended at you at all. . i was just getting my point of view accross!! hugs ivy xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy_Encaoua Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Thanks for starting this thread Ziggy,very thought provoking......Its good to hear at least one person appreciates what I have to sayim not a goth .. am a bit of a hippie really !! but not a flaky one..cool enough you on MSN Messenger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotaGirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Sonny - its all in the Bible ...And the Bible being the word of God - where is the middle man ?Ziggy and Ivy sitting in a tree ................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy_Encaoua Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Ziggy and Ivy sitting in a tree ................Well I'd prefer to be tied up in a dugeon......but a tree will do :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Sonny - its all in the Bible ...And the Bible being the word of God - where is the middle man ?Oh, of course is it. How I missed that, I'll never know! Mmmm... Good job it's never been revised through the many hundreds of years. And there is only one holy book. Shame about those people in the world that have never even heard of it (destined for hell?). Is the kingdom of heaven a nice clean place for believers of a certain kind of faith?I'm sorry if I sound sarcastic, and I don't want to be making enemies on this site, or offend Christians. The message of Jesus was about love and I'm not knocking that. You did miss my point about believing in a God that created mankind to praise Him; casting into eternal suffering those who don't. It seems so... unforgiving, even self-serving.I don't accept the Bible is all the word of God. Of course, I don't know this for sure, but the old testament and new testament seem to kind of clash in places. There are also many controvertial ideas in the bible too. Homosexuality, for example. Some people might think that there's no place in heaven for gays if they read the bible and take it as the exact word of god (Ziggy! Help me out here and start talking about dinosaurs in the bible).I don't think it's the place to get into all that here - it's not much about bpd anymore. Like I said before, no one can actually prove there is or is not a God. Having respect for others, an open mind and a loving heart are things you can have and, if there is a God, I doubt those qualities will be overlooked on judgement day. I don't think following any book or preacher will offer special treatment at the pearly gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotaGirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Sonny - you know I am not going to address the points raised in detail because I think you are getting the essence of the message,Earlier I said I dont like some of what Christianity entails, and it does seem very harsh, and God isnt the really good all round fluffy nice being I wanted for a God. darn him.And yes the old and new do clash - but they are meant to, the old testament is the old covenant, the new testament is the new covenant, and the new supplants the old - we dont have to take disobedient sons and have them stoned by the village elders if they dont change their ways anymore!The message of Jesus is love and forgiveness, love and forgiveness for what we have done wrong, what we did wrong and what we will do wrong. And fully lived Christianity is positive, but its not all tolerant, all forgiving and fluffy, its harsh, its discriminative, it has rights and wrongs, do and donts, and absolute standards.Which arent very popular, or what we would want.But just cos I dont like something, doesnt mean it isnt true. You can believe cyanide wont kill you - with all your heart soul and mind - and when you take it - you is dead!Thing is I also believe we cannot comprehend the enormity of the divine, and God and so purposes etc are all interpreted through our understanding - and hence it looks the way it does to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy_Encaoua Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Sonny believe in your self you don't need a self help book or any hokus pokus mysticism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotaGirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Hey dont knock a good bit of Harrold, Robbins or Covey you - anyway Ziggy hows the mojo working ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy_Encaoua Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 anyway Ziggy hows the mojo working ?Come round & find out B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotaGirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 you are far to fickle for m e ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissprudence Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Goodness gracious!What a saucy bunch you are! I apologise in advance for this digression...Ziggy, your Bill Hicks avatar is making me frisky and I feel compelled to keep reading your posts! He was a delicious man and the world is very dull without him! Glad to see you're continuing his work! Tell me, just to give me something to erm... sleep on, how is your "Goat Boy" impression? Someone's really going to have to stop me, before I embarrass myself any further!KPxxP.S. As far as the organised religion thing goes, I'm keeping zipped! I was brought up in the old school. Never ask someone about their religious inclinations - it invariably leads to conflict! Aha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Sonny believe in your self you don't need a self help book or any hokus pokus mysticismZiggy, I do believe in myself, mate. I don't accept what NotaGirl is saying (I'm gonna get back to that when I've calmed down) and surely - through our private chats - you realise I'm not exactly floating around in the clouds either. You can say that you believe science will explain everything, one day... but I've told you that on the evidence we have (and I know you are one for reason), you have no logical claim to be certain now. I'm cool about you stating your beliefs, but they have no more force than someone saying they believe in god.There are professors of science - brilliant physicists - who believe in god. It's not inconsistent with the scientific method. I don't go any further in my argument than that but, I also leave room for myself on things like intuition and I'm open-minded to new possiblities. Don't confuse any arguments or counter arguments I offer about religion as necessarily being my beliefs.More importantly, I actually do need help. More than just self help books - I need regular care from a MH team. My reasoning is intact (I have a degree in philosophy and was asked if I'd like to stay on at the philosophy dept - I'm not saying that makes me so very clever, just that others have confirmed I have an aptitude for it) but I've gone through some things in my life which have badly affected me and I've got an illness, as real as a broken leg, that I can't fix.As you're making suggestions for me, I'll suggest that your views have a place to be stated here, but they don't stand above mine or anyone elses. That much is black and white to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Goodness gracious!What a saucy bunch you are! I apologise in advance for this digression...Ziggy, your Bill Hicks avatar is making me frisky and I feel compelled to keep reading your posts! He was a delicious man and the world is very dull without him! Glad to see you're continuing his work! Tell me, just to give me something to erm... sleep on, how is your "Goat Boy" impression? Someone's really going to have to stop me, before I embarrass myself any further!KPxxWHAT?? Do you think Bill Hicks wasn't spiritual???!!! Squeegie your third eye and look again kissprudence. Then grab on to my horns and let me eat you like a feedbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissprudence Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Goat Boy, you are baaaaaaadddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Thank you, Sonny. I've said that so often in my dreams!)And relax...KPxxP.S. My apologies to everyone. I'll leave you to get on with your high-powered religious discussion. Good luck with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Goat Boy, you are baaaaaaadddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Thank you, Sonny. I've said that so often in my dreams!)And relax...KPxxP.S. My apologies to everyone. I'll leave you to get on with your high-powered religious discussion. Good luck with it!I do need to relax Though my tongue has been planted squarely in my cheek on some comments kissprudence (unless you want it elsewhere..... uuuhhhhhh. from uptight to revolting in one quick move. The goatboy lives within. I can only apologise. Now where's my preacher's hat got to find my high horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faerielight Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Goat Boy, you are baaaaaaadddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Thank you, Sonny. I've said that so often in my dreams!)And relax...KPxxP.S. My apologies to everyone. I'll leave you to get on with your high-powered religious discussion. Good luck with it!I do need to relax Though my tongue has been planted squarely in my cheek on some comments kissprudence (unless you want it elsewhere..... uuuhhhhhh. from uptight to revolting in one quick move. The goatboy lives within. I can only apologise. Now where's my preacher's hat got to find my high horse.sonny u make me laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ivy xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotaGirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 NEIGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon maiden Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 from what ive read Im a bit confused as to who exactly your trying to verbally attac? Is it medical professions, the whole different spectrum of worldly beleifes and religens, or those people who choose to want to believe? so far i see it as you are trying to have a bitch fit to all the above. what you should be doing is deciding why you chose not to beleive and just worry about that. it shouldnt matter to anyone why we beleive or not nor should it matter in what we choose to beleive in. what should matter is things that matter to us like family for some, work for others, me myself i choose getting better and proper help that will work for me for now and in the future. What about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammi Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 bitch fits are healthy, and i like getting spiky and challenging. by the way, ivy you sound like one cool puppy. im a chilled buddhist, vego hippy who is also a scientist. make sense of that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy_Encaoua Posted March 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Ziggy, your Bill Hicks avatar is making me frisky and I feel compelled to keep reading your posts! He was a delicious man and the world is very dull without him!Yeah some do compare me to Bill but I'm my own person Glad to see you're continuing his work!Yeah viva the revolution :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy_Encaoua Posted March 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 you are far to fickle for m e !I’m the last one who’s fickle I’m pretty coherent & very anti hypocrisy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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