The Christian Bpd Forums...

[Kelliemanic]

This is not a place to criticise other people or their beliefs...this a community for people to feel safe within, to

You know this whole ‘safe environment’ bullshit which prevalent thorough mental health is why very few people ever get better. It doesn’t allow for what is really needed the concept of ‘tough love’. Many could do with kick up the arse because self pity gets nobody anywhere good.

ROTFL...

Let's change the bit at the top....

(adopts wistful voice)

Support....acceptance....validation...and a good kick up the arse!

"..I think you need to have a little more respect for other's beliefs"

That's a bit bloody rich!

Since when did the christians have any respect for anyone elses belief systems?

Go around stealing pagan festivals that predated them for thousands of years, then pronounce them "godless heathens"

Travelling on great missions accross many years and many countries to "bring god" to people who already had their own beliefs, and then punish them...OR WORSE declare war on them because they wont convert.

Onward christian soldiers indeed...

"This is not a place to criticise other people or their beliefs...."

....I believe that being BPD is slightly different to being posessed by a demon...

Call me wacky...

Thats why I'm criticising their beliefs....

"..they shouldn't think that religion isn't above criticism.."

Damn straight! We're allowed to criticize the NHS, or our therapists, or the GP who got things wrong again, but we're not allowed to criticize a bunch of goons who reckon we should all run out and get exorcisms the minute we get diagnosed.

Peace love and knowledge to you all....

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

This is not a place to criticise other people or their beliefs...this a community for people to feel safe within, to

You know this whole ‘safe environment’ bullshit which prevalent thorough mental health is why very few people ever get better. It doesn’t allow for what is really needed the concept of ‘tough love’. Many could do with kick up the arse because self pity gets nobody anywhere good.

ROTFL...

Let's change the bit at the top....

(adopts wistful voice)

Support....acceptance....validation...and a good kick up the arse!

"..I think you need to have a little more respect for other's beliefs"

That's a bit bloody rich!

Since when did the christians have any respect for anyone elses belief systems?

Go around stealing pagan festivals that predated them for thousands of years, then pronounce them "godless heathens"

Travelling on great missions accross many years and many countries to "bring god" to people who already had their own beliefs, and then punish them...OR WORSE declare war on them because they wont convert.

Onward christian soldiers indeed...

Great post btw

You forgot to mention that they use to burn witches & did you know that the laws against witchcraft weren't dropped until the 50's

[Long Time Man]

What a shame they didn't hang on until the 90's to repeal that law. I have an ex-wife that may have fallen foul of that particular legislation!!

[InnerPeace]

I was talking about respect for our fellow members on this site...or do you think they don't deserve that and only you do?

[Kelliemanic]

This is not a place to criticise other people or their beliefs...this a community for people to feel safe within, to

You know this whole ‘safe environment’ bullshit which prevalent thorough mental health is why very few people ever get better. It doesn’t allow for what is really needed the concept of ‘tough love’. Many could do with kick up the arse because self pity gets nobody anywhere good.

ROTFL...

Let's change the bit at the top....

(adopts wistful voice)

Support....acceptance....validation...and a good kick up the arse!

"..I think you need to have a little more respect for other's beliefs"

That's a bit bloody rich!

Since when did the christians have any respect for anyone elses belief systems?

Go around stealing pagan festivals that predated them for thousands of years, then pronounce them "godless heathens"

Travelling on great missions accross many years and many countries to "bring god" to people who already had their own beliefs, and then punish them...OR WORSE declare war on them because they wont convert.

Onward christian soldiers indeed...

Great post btw

You forgot to mention that they use to burn witches & did you know that the laws against witchcraft weren't dropped until the 50's

Yes I do.

The last case of imprisonment for witchcraft (by a god-fearing judge and jury) happened during world war 2.

Her name was Helen Duncan, she was a housewife and mother of six children.

Helen was sent back to London's Holloway prison, for nine months in total..

When she was finally released she came here to Nottingham and held a seance, the police raided her place, and strip searched her.

She died a few weeks later.

She is STILL being denied a posthumous pardon.

Still, nine months in a victorian hell-hole, and then police brutality involving strip searching, can't be any worse than burning someone alive for their beliefs can it?

Can it?

I bet the Christians of Salem Massachusetts could tell us though, after all they spent a year, convicting and killing innocent women.

Or perhaps in 1099 The medieval crusades to "liberate" the people of Jerusalem...

AND I QUOTE!

...."Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, Indeed, it was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies. The city was filled with corpses and blood..."

The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) last amended on September 13, 2003 states that an official may be

"excluded from holding office" if he/she does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC...

Do you want me to go on?

I'll stop "criticising people's beliefs" when you stop supporting, funding, and believing in murder.

Stop killing people for what they believe in, and I'll stop criticising christianity.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

I was talking about respect for our fellow members on this site...or do you think they don't deserve that and only you do?

Maybe you need to go to the Attention Seekers Forum & vent some as really seem to be getting your knickers in a bind & then some

[Kelliemanic]

I was talking about respect for our fellow members on this site...or do you think they don't deserve that and only you do?

Maybe you need to go to the Attention Seekers Forum & vent some as really seem to be getting your knickers in a bind & then some

That sounds dangerously like an opinion.....

You want to be careful throwing thoughts around like that...

I never have opinions....far too dangerous....

B)

[Guest wife]

you see I am a Christian and if I am honest I would love the whole world to be Christian also because that is what my God has told me HE wants for the world through word (Bible) and action (people in my life)

HOWEVER, not all Christians prey on the weak (although I do not deny that some do). One of the things I believe is a "sin" is the act of homosexual relations but my best friend is a lesbian, so obviously some of us can put our beliefs to one side for a while to get on with the job in hand, loving the world just as Christ did.

I don't believe that Christians are any better than anyone else (we all do stuff wrong and we all do stuff that hurts others and hurts God) however that does not mean that I don't think the world would be a better place if more people were Christians. I have my own reasons for thinking that Christianity as desribed by Jesus and the authors of the New Testament is the one true "religion"(If anyone wants to know what my reasons are then you can PM me and I will happily explain.) and I am not one of the people that thinks you can follow what you want and still get to Heaven (some may call me arogant but I do believe if you are anything other than a Christian you are destined for Hell (that's where I believe my Mum is destined for)).

Don't tar all Christians with the same brush, yes there are bad ones out there but there are bad (and good) people in all religions/beliefs/races in fact in any group of people you care to mention. Please don't think if you are not a Christian that I hate you, I make it my job to Christly love all, to do as Christ did and to care for those not as fortunate as myself

I am worried about saying these things coz I suspect that I am going to get slated but I just feel strongly about this

in Him

Jay

[Long Time Man]

some may call me arogant but I do believe if you are anything other than a Christian you are destined for Hell

Yes, that is arrogant.

[Ziggy_Encaoua]

Don't tar all Christians with the same brush

Same God!

Same book!

Same religion!

The point I’m trying to make is the source of the problem is the cancer

[Kelliemanic]

some may call me arogant but I do believe if you are anything other than a Christian you are destined for Hell

Yes, that is arrogant.

You see Hitler was a Nazi, and if he was honest he would have loved the whole world to have been nazis also because that is what HIS God told him HE wanted for the world through word (Bible his interpretation)

[Guest wife]

I respect the fact that other people believe different things to me (doesn't mean I have to think they are right) so respect me for having beliefs that I have thought about, they mean a lot to me

Jay

[NotaGirl]

Well Ziggy you are crushingly missing the point.

The Crusades were justified by reference to the Bible - they however are not justified by the text of the Bible.

Many of the practices of Christians are justified by reference to the Bible but they too are not justified by the text of the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible are Christians told to liberate by force - in fact quite the opposite. Now the Israelites got told lots of things, including some pretty nice things like stoning a son that was consistently disobedient by the village elders, stoning of witches.

However, the Bible clearly states that is the OLD covenant and Jesus represents the NEW covenant, and that his teachings are the Truth, The Way and the Light.

Now in light of that many of the practices of Christians become very unbiblical indeed, including brainwashing, praying on the weak, prosecution of witches, and many many others.

It is not arrogance that says Cyanide kills, you may believe wholeheartedly with you very being that its harmless, take it and see what happens.

For a Christian this is what Heaven and Hell is like, just because you dont believe in God does not mean He does not believe in you.

There are somethings that people should stay out of, and mental health councelling is for those that know what they are doing. Unfortunately good intentions and lack of knowledge plus religious fervour make a potent but unhealthy cocktail.

However, the teachings outlined in the first post are not Biblical, however you try and reference it.

An exorcism is actually blindingly simple in the Bible - you simply state In the name of Jesus I command you to leave - and that is it. No more drama is required than that simple statement said by the right person at the right time in the right place.

a final thought "the best trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince people he does't exist!"

[sonny]

[\quote]However, the Bible clearly states that is the OLD covenant and Jesus represents the NEW covenant, and that his teachings are the Truth, The Way and the Light.

[Vicky]

You completely missed my point, so I will try again, and again, and again, until it sinks in.

I do not agree with what was quoted by Kellie from that site. In my opinion it is not a logical notion to think that beong possessed has made us all ill.

I don't have a problem with what any of you do or do not believe. I don't have a problem with any of you expressing your beliefs.

To paraphrase, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it".

What I do have a problem with, is the way you express your beliefs. If you insulted someone on here for their skin colour, age, sex, etc etc etc you would recieve a warning, as it is unacceptable. So why, exactly, do you feel that talking about religion gives you an excuse to be rude?

[NotaGirl]

I'm intersted to learn more about this. Was the old testament just wrong or did God change His mind? I guess the latter's wrong as a Perfect Being wouldn't change (a God that errs and alters is a bit unsettling to me).

Why does it have to be wrong, it was appropriate for the time. If you look at what people did in the time of the Israelites then what they practiced was extremely progressive and different. Remember sacrifice of new born children to appease the gods was relatively common place, and an eye for an eye was very progressive as it was often 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 to achive justice, say you kill one member of my family I kill 100 of yours for example.

Why has the nature of God changed, he loved his people. The Covenant changes because we have free will, if a child takes the sweet from the table, you left it there, you knew the child would take it and they did. Did the child exercise free will - well according to some no because you knew they would do it. Which in human terms sounds absurd, well, we have free will, but God knows what we will do with it. Hence the message follows our needs and our development. Remember the Bible is God breathed, and all is useful for instruction and learning. However, explicitly a Christian is bound by the New Covenant of the New Testament - because they follow the teachings of Christ which are contained in that book. The old testament is the story of God's people before Jesus, and is instructive not prescriptive.

We changed and so as we developed and grew so God revealed more to us - makes sense- you dont teach a 3 year old physics of rules of grammar even though one day you will - you wait till they can understand. Well God is the parent in this scenario - hence the Biblical image of the Father

Cyanide is a physical thing - we can see it, use it, etc. and I don't think it's helpful to use it in discussion about something metaphysical, that we don't actually know exists. I don't doubt for a second you believe in Him and have faith, be that doesn't amount to knowledge for me.

So its an epistemological position, do you believe Caesar existed, what about other dead characters, what about all the elements on the Periodic table, what about quantum particles, - all things we cant see or actually use. But all physical, we rely on the reports of people about them, or instruments we think tell us what is there. We cannot directly experience a lot of things we hold to be true, but when it comes to God, direct experience is dismissed and not trusted - interesting paradox dont you think.

At the end of the day, knowledge is nothing more than a firmly held set of beliefs, although we may regard those beliefs as firmly validated and true, we never actually know for sure. thats the nature of knowedge, it is for many things subjective and interpretative.

a final thought "the best trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince people he does't exist!"

[sonny]

If you'd like to turn this into a private discussion rather than on the forum, I'm very happy to do that. I pose skeptical arguments simply because I want to understand your faith better and not intend to be insulting about Christianity. It's with this in mind that I would like you to read my comments.

I'm intersted to learn more about this. Was the old testament just wrong or did God change His mind? I guess the latter's wrong as a Perfect Being wouldn't change (a God that errs and alters is a bit unsettling to me)."].

Why does it have to be wrong, it was appropriate for the time. If you look at what people did in the time of the Israelites then what they practiced was extremely progressive and different. Remember sacrifice of new born children to appease the gods was relatively common place, and an eye for an eye was very progressive as it was often 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 to achive justice, say you kill one member of my family I kill 100 of yours for example.

Sorry, I don't see what this has got to do with God changing. That people change isn't up for questioning.

Why has the nature of God changed, he loved his people.

I was asking you if he had changed? I thought this couldn't be possible, given my understanding of Divine justice and it's necassarily unchanging nature

The Covenant changes because we have free will,

Can you explain what the Covenant is, I don't have a clue.

if a child takes the sweet from the table, you left it there, you knew the child would take it and they did. Did the child exercise free will - well according to some no because you knew they would do it.

This puts me in mind of Bertrand Russell's famous argument: a chicken is fed by the farmer, everytime the farmer visits he has always left food, therefore the farmer will always bring food when he visits. Sadly, the chicken is mistaken and the final visit from the farmer is the chicken's last day - he wrings it's neck.

The point is, making an inference from past events isn't necessarily a sound logical step. The child, in your argument, might not have taken the sweet because they had tried it before and knew they disliked that sweet. I suggest your example holds little currency when discussing free will. I also think - following this line of reasoning - that using the Bible for making inferences about what is happening now in God's 'thoughts' (especially if he has changed in the past), is reason for grave concern.

Which in human terms sounds absurd, well, we have free will, but God knows what we will do with it.

I agree we have free will but I think there is a problem with God knowing what we will do and also saying we have freewill. If God knows what we will do, how are we free to do otherwise?

Hence the message follows our needs and our development. Remember the Bible is God breathed, and all is useful for instruction and learning. However, explicitly a Christian is bound by the New Covenant of the New Testament - because they follow the teachings of Christ which are contained in that book. The old testament is the story of God's people before Jesus, and is instructive not prescriptive.

We changed and so as we developed and grew so God revealed more to us - makes sense- you dont teach a 3 year old physics of rules of grammar even though one day you will - you wait till they can understand. Well God is the parent in this scenario - hence the Biblical image of the Father

I see this argument as having wiggle room to accomodate human evolution, but your point is about the evolution of our knowledge of God. Is this refering to the old and new testament or something else?

Cyanide is a physical thing - we can see it, use it, etc. and I don't think it's helpful to use it in discussion about something metaphysical, that we don't actually know exists. I don't doubt for a second you believe in Him and have faith, be that doesn't amount to knowledge for me.

So its an epistemological position, do you believe Caesar existed, what about other dead characters, what about all the elements on the Periodic table, what about quantum particles, - all things we cant see or actually use. But all physical, we rely on the reports of people about them, or instruments we think tell us what is there. We cannot directly experience a lot of things we hold to be true, but when it comes to God, direct experience is dismissed and not trusted - interesting paradox dont you think.

You state a number of propostions about things we do know about and can meaure, verify, quantify, or check the veracity and reliability of the facts, and then you tag on that there is direct experience of God. This direct experience has many other alternative explanations, e.g. mental illness, biochemical abnormalities, etc. Believing that it is experience of God is very much open to questioning.

At the end of the day, knowledge is nothing more than a firmly held set of beliefs, although we may regard those beliefs as firmly validated and true, we never actually know for sure. thats the nature of knowedge, it is for many things subjective and interpretative.[color=#000080]

I agree with you in general, but you can understand why people might prefer beliefs that have solid grounding, such as, if put my hand in the fire it will get burned and I will feel pain. The idea that a book other humans wrote is all the true word of God and all that goes with is not something I accept.

a final thought "the best trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince people he does't exist!"[color=#000080]

Can't we leave bogeymen out of this? I don't see why Christians put forward the idea that if there is a heaven, you'll be denied access for not believing in Him. That's human vanity talking, isn't it? "I'm going to heaven and you're not!' Why would God create people only to cast them into eternal suffering for not worshipping Him. It seems absurd.

Well why not put forward the idea, in our terms the Bible says so, the Bible is God breathed, and well you know the rest sort of follows.

This is begging the question - you assume the truth of your conclusion

and use it as a premise for your argument i.e. the bible is right and is the truth.

If I tell you I have 10 pounds for you, and you dont believe me and dont pop round and pick it up - you dont recieve that gift. Well heaven is the gift, if you dont believe in God how can he give it you? Hell is merely shorthand for eternal separation from God, rather than shorthand for a Faustian conception.

Hell is not where you go to do tortures to pay for your sins, its a way of concieving of what being wholly without knowledge of, and the presence of God is like. For a human soul created to be with God - what could be worse than that eternal separation.

At the end of the day, we may not like the terms and conditions, and we can have a whole bunch of questions about the whys and wherefores, and we can even not particularly like God and the way he goes about things - but like Cynanide in my earlier example, do any of these things diminish the reality. Well, i dont like cynanide, the way it kills, forms crystals, tastes and i have a lot of questions about it and how it works. But none of those stop it existing.

For me God is a reality, and as such the Biblical conceptions of Heaven, Hell, and thus of God and Devil are as real as cyanide, and in fact in my daily life a lot more real because they have meaning and direct my action, cyanide does not!

I've already said I think your cyamide exaple is not an appropriate analogy to make. We have much more and far stronger evidence-based knowledge to be certain of its existence. This doesn't apply to God. That you believe Hell is 'eternal separation' which results from not chosing to believe in Him is still riddled with vanity and exclusivity, and appears absurd to me. What about those peope who have never heard of the Christian God you believe in, or the people who lived before He breathed out the Bible? Are these people destined to be locked in 'eternal separation? By extension, are all those people in this country who've never read the Bible also destined for the same fate (all with God's knowledge)? Those who don't have the mental faculties to understand the message of God... the list goes on and on.

sonny

[badger]

Kellie

does the toad thing work then ?

not sure about the others but i think you may have a winner there!!

jai

No. I tried it last night. It wasn't exactly a toad but I'm sure it still counts. I had no idea though that Freddo the Frog chocolate bars would melt so easily.

[coco]

Im a christian and ive bad experiences, for example i got told i had an evil spirit in me cos i suffered with depression, I got thrown out of a christian community cos i took an overdose and theres more but not once have i turned my back on God.

Hes not the one who hurt me, man did.

Christians are not like vampires, so i think it is extremely rude to say they are.

Not all christians prey on the weak, im a christian and i dont feel i prey on the weak and neither do people i know.

Being a christian means giving your life to Jesus.

So why not try it, it may not always be easy but its worth it!

Love Eva xx :)

[InnerPeace]

I agree Coco. There's a difference between Churchianity and Christianity. I went to both Catholic and Anglican convent schools and most of the nuns were very far removed from the teachings of Christ. My grandfather was a Methodist lay preacher too so I guess that all accounts for my eclectic view and why I like to stand back and to try and see the over all message beyond the detail, finding the common ground.

My grandfather I think had OCD and also had a nervous breakdown, I don't know what his religous thoughts were in connection with that. I give spiritual healing (as well as other complimentary therapies) and in addition to channelling healing energy from God, I ask for Jesus' assistance (being a healer himself) and the energy flow becomes that much stronger. We can allow Jesus' healing into our own bodies for ourselves too.

[Miko]

"Bible cures for BPD...

Prayers to stop compulsive behaviour...

and of course...

Good old EXORCISM!

Posts include:

Through jesus BPD's can get better!

Diagnosed with BPD, am I a bad christian?

AND MY PERSONAL FAVE:

Mentally ill? Or devil possessed??"

We aren't given the link to actually check it out, nor are the actual answers given quoted for us. I bet I know what some of the answers are, and yet I would partly rephrase some of the questions to nuance them more appropriately.

I would be surprised if it said people with BPD are bad christians or the mentally ill were devil possessed. Dismayed also. I would expect it to confirm the opposite, which we know.

However I do think many semi-Christian sites or bodies are partly wrong. This is partly because of splintering and lack of genuine authority behind viewpoints propagated as teachings.

I too know many Christians who act well towards others and many who don't.

It truly has never been a genuine Christian belief that "if you are anything other than a Christian you are destined for Hell".

It is in any case strange of Jay to raise this as it was not part of the lines of argument.

It is often the case that "Jesus" is very involved in an improvement - note this is a relative phenomenon - even if for just a period. I'm thankful I can look back on good patches!

"Cure" should be flagged up as a relative thing like "treatment" e.g the water cure.

Genuine exorcism is a wholesome and unexciting thing with many applications in the Christian life.

Black and white (all or nothing) thinking doesn't lead anywhere - while sober examination does.

What a marvel to see the word "epistomological" on this forum ;) ;)

[sunshine_bear]

hey

I think that ever one who reads the bible can interpret in different ways to get there own beleifs.

I personally dont believe if there was someone up there then why does all the suffering have ti happen.

I guess if Im wrong then to hell I go but I reckon Im destined their anyway. If there was a god then why did he let bad things happen to people?

sorry to much has happened to me for me to beleif if there was onbe he would ahve saved me by now.

sunshinex

[NotaGirl]

Sunshine

CS Lewis said that we only ask why do bad things happen because of God and that the real question to be asked is how come there is good in the world.

Its an interesting way of looking at things!

[sunshine_bear]

i hadnt heardf that quote before nota girl you are gonna have me thinking now! And cos Im blonde that hurts lol.

sunshinex

[InnerPeace]

hey

I think that ever one who reads the bible can interpret in different ways to get there own beleifs.

I personally dont believe if there was someone up there then why does all the suffering have ti happen.

I guess if Im wrong then to hell I go but I reckon Im destined their anyway. If there was a god then why did he let bad things happen to people?

sorry to much has happened to me for me to beleif if there was onbe he would ahve saved me by now.

sunshinex

Maybe God doesn't have the ability to stop all the bad things.

Maybe this world is a battle ground between good and evil.

Maybe we are spiritual beings here to learn through experiencing the human life. How we can learn trust and forgiveness if we have not been subjected to the opposite?

This world is full of polarities...we cannot know one without having experienced the other. We do not know "hot" unless we have experienced "cold.

Maybe we are meant to take personal responsibility.

Maybe we have karma to work out with our fellow incarnated souls on this planet.

If we live according to Jesus' teachings we will be highly developed spiritually. Able to love unconditionally and live in peace and contentment.