Who Are We Outside Of Bpd?

[KavanIce]

Warning: I digress and meander so bear with me!

It occurred to me after reading the thread "Is BPD a Mental Illness?" that perhaps some mental health professionals and others, have difficulty accepting BPD as a legitimate illness because the term itself suggests something innate. In other words it isn't something that is happening to us but something we are, its most positive feature being that it gives us an identity.

The definition of Personality is listed as 'the complex of all the attributes--behavioral, temperamental, emotional and mental--that characterize a unique individual;'

In another definition it is suggested that 'Only when personality traits are inflexible and maladaptive and cause either significant functional impairment or subjective distress do they constitute a Personality Disorder'.

So I have these questions for consideration:

Who are we outside of our personality?

Can we change our personality? Or is it that we can only change certain aspects of our personality.

I believe many MH professionals shy away from personality disorders because it is frustrating to try and change the basic structure of another person. Guiding us towards a healthier way of being would mean entering a murky labyrinth of a self unknown to itself. I don't blame them for not knowing how to enter or simply not wanting to go there.

These questions are troubling for me as I have a vague sense of myself, an idefinite sense of 'realness'. I can list a number of attributes outside of the DSM that can accurately describe 'who I am' but I have a difficult time thinking of all these things as being 'me'. I think of BPD as being something that disallows for the full development of my being, as something innate interferring with all I can become (an evolving human being). If I cannot escape myself then I also cannot escape BPD.

I am not even sure of what one would refer to as my identity. I have a name yes but no purpose. I know I am Michelle and nothing else. My identity is drawn from others. I am my mother's daughter. I am my lover's lover. When my mother dies I will be no one's daugher and when my lover leaves I will be no ones lover. During those intervals when there isn't a mirror to give me identity and purpose I sit in stasis, waiting for life. Interestingly enough my mother and my lovers all characterize me as someone 'full of life' yet ironically they are the first to feel drained of life from dealing with me. I'm the parasite they cannot identify.

I am not looking for an answer only discussion, musings, an exploration on these themes.

Who are you outside of the DSM criteria for BPD?

My answer is we are legion, I am no one.

Creepy isn't it. :rolleyes:

[nattyone]

I think I am BPD , I think i've been this way to a more or lesser degree for a very long time possibly my life. I am over emotional and extremly paranoid, this could be my personality and the reason its a personality disorder is because my core personality makes it hard for me to function in a socially acceptable and normal way as other people do, however I dont know what normal is , I see plenty of violent and aggresive people. Do all of them have personality disorders ? is a short fuse a personality disorder, bouts of violence?.

Maybe what makes us different are the other things that we have or dont have that the general public do have . I don't have an identity only my personality or this illness , I dont like it what ever it is . I would like to be strong willed and consistent, a good communicator , someone who is optomistic about life and someone who can stand up for myself, the reality is I am not any of these things. Is it the BPD that makes me this way or is this the way I am built, maybe BPD is a error in the building and we were all destined to turn out like this , or maybe it is a consequence of our lives, maybe its both.

I dont know who I am outside BPD maybe I am me and this is it forever, I am a non entity built to float from one thought to another and achieve nothing because for every minute of the day my thoughts can be different and my prime concerns change in the blink of an eye. Maybe I am BPD not have BPD.

[Lily-Bee]

I do not have this problem I think I do know who I am, I am someone that has BPD but I am more then that.

I see BPD as yes having certain traits in my personality but my personality is more then those traits.

I view it almost like having another psychical disease, having daibetes for instance, you can have that and it can be a part of you but its not all you are. My BPD defines a part of me but it doesnt define me as a whole. I am unique.

As for being someone´s daughter and lover and such things. I think we all in life have certain roles to play this has nothing to do with having BPD or not I think. I think people without BPD are also often for themselves defined by what roles they have in life.

Some people view themselves as mostly a mother or a wife or define themselves by what job they have. And forget that they are more then that. You see it a lot with stay at home mums who at one point realize they don´t know who they are anymore besides from being a mother.

I guess for a lot of people with BPD its harder because a lot of us feel we don´t know who we are even if we try to have a concept of who we are. But I think just because we feel that way doesnt mean it is so that we don´t have a personality thats clearcut.

I see it here on this board, people are very different and have unique caracters wheter they realize it or not.

There is a lot of debate about wheter personalities can be changed or not. This is my personal view I think they cannot. But I think we can change our behaviours which means we still are who we where to begin with but we simply have learned,chosen to deal differently with certain sides of our personality.

Lilly

[Faerielight]

i feel that my core self is my spirit/soul /higher self.. whatever u want to call it.. the part of me that is beyond my issues , emotions and even my body. the wise loving pure part of me .

[KavanIce]

Nattyone: Yea I also wonder as to how people who are aggressive or dysfunctional can be considered to have a 'normal' personality. I guess it has to do with the degree of functionality measured on an arbitrary scale., or maybe the whole construct is arbitrary. When you describe yourself as a non-entity, a being who's thoughts float one into another etc., it reminds me of the dialogue many philosopher's have of what constitutes our being. In this we are not alone, I think we just have been given more reasons to question the notion of identity and personality.

Lilly: Yes I am not disputing our 'uniqueness' whatever that means. For example I can say I love to read and travel but so do many others. In this I am not 'unique' it is only our feelings towards ourselves as beings separate from others that gives us the illusion of being 'unique'. I am unique from you because of upbringing, life experience, personal idiosyncracies, perspectives and habits but none of those things in and of themself are unique. Its this lack of uniqueness that allows us to identify with each other. I don't think we can consider a personality disorder as being similar to diabetes as there is no abstract experience of being diabetic. A diabetic is something that 'happens' to someone physically and is easily managed. Most diabetics will claim they ARE diabetic and don't feel the need to distinguish who they are outside of their physical illness because it is something of the body, not something of their essential being or experience of themselves. For example, in the thread 10 positive ways BPD has affected ones life, I noticed that the question is still posed in relation to being a BPD. No diabetic would list 10 reasons why pancreas malfunction has been a 'positive'. A cancer patient might notice that as they became ill some friends were really supportive and some were not, or how they finally began to notice the beauty of their physical surroundings as they were confronted with death, but none would say that there was a 'positive' side to their illness. If given the chance they would choose not to have the cancer as it isn't a fulfilling experience to be physically compromised.

If we stripped away our roles as worker, family member, national kinship, race, age etc. who would we really be? This more a question about the human condition than it is about being BPD. Mental health practitioners consider the act of stripping away a form of 'dissociation' and isn't considered a normal way of being. I don't see how we can have an identity outside of the above listings, I think this is why being a BPD is so terrifying. We only have identity in relationship to something else (Kundera's book IDENTITY is a mini exploration of this). I have a sporadic practically non-existent work history so I cannot say I am something in relationship to work, I have had friends come and go like mercury through my fingers with new ones replacing where the last one occupied, same with lovers etc.

Being unable to bond with others means they are only real when they are in front of me and play no relationship to me when they are no longer present. Identity requires consistency in role. So I do feel a lack of identity because I am not in relation to something. I feel a lack of purpose because I am not in relationship to anything. Do you see what I mean? If there was anything in my life I could change it would be this.

Ivy: I don't know what a wise pure being is outside of my mental processess as there is no way to connect with it outside of my mind. I struggle with the notion of 'being' and 'spirit'. I am not saying it doesn't exist only that I am not sure what people are talking about when they use the term. I have never existed outside of my mind and body so I don't see how this 'something' can be outside that relationship. I mean what is the spirit exactly? These are still themes of exploration as I find it impossible to take on a de facto interpretation without critical thought. I often hear how ones spirit exists even after death, but what can exist when the main sensory instrument, mind and body, are no longer active to interpret 'being'?

[nattyone]

kavan ice said

I have a sporadic practically non-existent work history so I cannot say I am something in relationship to work, I have had friends come and go like mercury through my fingers with new ones replacing where the last one occupied, same with lovers etc.

Being unable to bond with others means they are only real when they are in front of me and play no relationship to me when they are no longer present. Identity requires consistency in role. So I do feel a lack of identity because I am not in relation to something. I feel a lack of purpose because I am not in relationship to anything. Do you see what I mean? If there was anything in my life I could change it would be this.

This is exactly how I feel , although I am a mother and lover I feel no permanance in either of these roles, everything else comes and goes in an unpredictable way so I can only assume these two roles will ultimatly disintergrate in much the same way. The only predictable thing is the unpredictable way in which good things vanish.

I think most people have an identity that is not dependant wholly on there relationships and place in society. I think this is one of my main concerns , not knowing who I am or what I am here for in otherwords lack of identity and purpose.

[Lily-Bee]

Interesting thoughts I thought KavanIce.

I would like to respond but I cant think clear enough right now.

So just letting you know I read it.

Lilly

[tcb]

In other words it isn't something that is happening to us but something we are, its most positive feature being that it gives us an identity.

Who are we outside of our personality?

Can we change our personality? Or is it that we can only change certain aspects of our personality.

I believe many MH professionals shy away from personality disorders because it is frustrating to try and change the basic structure of another person. Guiding us towards a healthier way of being would mean entering a murky labyrinth of a self unknown to itself. I don't blame them for not knowing how to enter or simply not wanting to go there.

These questions are troubling for me as I have a vague sense of myself, an idefinite sense of 'realness'. I can list a number of attributes outside of the DSM that can accurately describe 'who I am' but I have a difficult time thinking of all these things as being 'me'. I think of BPD as being something that disallows for the full development of my being, as something innate interferring with all I can become (an evolving human being). If I cannot escape myself then I also cannot escape BPD.

I am not even sure of what one would refer to as my identity. I have a name yes but no purpose. I know I am Michelle and nothing else. My identity is drawn from others. I am my mother's daughter. I am my lover's lover. When my mother dies I will be no one's daugher and when my lover leaves I will be no ones lover. During those intervals when there isn't a mirror to give me identity and purpose I sit in stasis, waiting for life. Interestingly enough my mother and my lovers all characterize me as someone 'full of life' yet ironically they are the first to feel drained of life from dealing with me. I'm the parasite they cannot identify.

I am not looking for an answer only discussion, musings, an exploration on these themes.

Who are you outside of the DSM criteria for BPD?

My answer is we are legion, I am no one.

I have to disagree with your circular logic that goes something like this:

BPD = Who I am

Who I am = My Identity/ Personality

My Identity/ Personality = BPD

1) We have BPD, BPD does NOT have us.

2) BPD is not WHO we are. We are SOooo much more.

3) We are the sum total of our body, mind and spirit.

4) Part of becoming your TRUE self is learning to develop the "observing" self. This "observing/ true" self has ALWAYS been with you. For example, whenever I was abused as I child, it was as if I was watching this going on. The "watcher" is the "observing" self.

5) YES!! We defintely can change aspects of our personality.

6) The good news about growing up physically without having had the chance to develop our true SELF, is that now we get the WONDERFUL opportunity to explore our interests and desires.

7) My therapist/ doctor has always told me it is HIS PRIVELGE to get to share in my journey of self discovery. And, I must admit, it is a pretty wonderful experience. I'm 45 years old and I am still experiencing the joy and wonder of discovering life and myself.

8) We don't exactly draw our identity from others, but rather they are like mirrors -- reflecting back to us an image of who we are, so we can see it. In psychology this is called, "the looking glass self." Other trustworthy people can give us GLIMPSES of our self, but no ONE person gives us the WHOLE picture.

9) Recovery is not about ESCAPING BPD... it is about DISCOVERING your true SELF. Our development was interrupted and now we get to grow up. I mean, the ones of us who have the COURAGE get to grow up. Growing up, as we all know, is not without its pain; however, the JOY makes it all worthwhile.

Great questions....

Keep searching. You are on the right track.

tcb

[Lily-Bee]

Just wanted to say what an interesting post tcb, really good points I think!

Sounds like you are going really well in therapy, how good, you seem to have such insight and know so well where you are going with therapy.

Only thing I dont agree with is, that its about courage to grow up and deal with BPD. Sure its a part of it but some people just dont have the good help you have or are where more damaged as children or some other way more affected which makes it harder for them.

Im going to read it again and now really take it in, somehow it strikes a cord with me.

Lilly

[tcb]

As a PERSON who has struggled with Diabetes for 15 years, as well as Thyroid Cancer, I can tell you that I do NOT say that I AM Diabetic. I am a PERSON FIRST and foremost. "I" have Diabetes, it does NOT have "me." I am MORE than Diabetes. I am MORE than Cancer.

I would liken having BPD to having Diabetes and having Cancer.

Yes, I definitely speak of having MANY POSITIVE experiences with having Cancer and having Diabetes, just as I speak of the positive aspects of having BPD.

Having these things are just parts of who I am. They have all given me an incredible ability to empathize with other people's hardships and suffering. If given a choice, I would not change having these illnesses because they have all contributed to making me who I am. If any one of them was missing, I would not be the person I am today.

The pain you describe in feeling like whenever you are alone, "no one" is home, comes from a lack of constant sense of your SELF.

Think of it like this. If you just met someone, how would you get to know them?

Answer:

1) First of all, you would have to spend TIME with them.

2) Secondly, you would get to know them by asking questions: What is your favorite food? What brings you the greatest feeling happiness? Walking outside? Watching a sunset? Laying on the grass? Looking at the stars? What's your favorite season? Your favorite color? Your favorite movie? What do you like to do? What do you like to wear?

It's like being a teenager. You get to explore new things to discover the answers to these questions.

Developing this sense of self is CRITICAL because one day, your children will grow up and jobs do change, etc. but whenever you have a SELF, you don't have to fear lossing anything or feel empty being alone because YOU are there.

The good news.... YOU will never leave YOU. Yes, it's sad losing things, people, jobs, etc., but losing YOU is the worst pain of all.

Go ahead -- DARE to explore. It could be something as simple as polishing your nails, taking a long bubble bath. INDULGE yourself. YOU are worth it.

Oh, one last thing. In the process, you will discover your UNIQUE self.

tcb

[ravenna]

I agree with kavanIce.. What she as said describes what I feel..even though at the current moment i cannot describe it in my own words. Im currently in a relationship..which at the moment is very rocky.. and i think the fear i feel isnt really fear of losing my bf but of losing the idenity and sense of self that i have when hes around... going back to being alone would mean a lose of personality, the shift back to the feeling of not being.

Ugh..have no idea if any of that made any sense so i apologize if i didnt...really cant think right now.

but very interesting topic.

[Faerielight]

wiish i could add more to what i said about the " higher self"/ spirit/soul but my head is too fuzzy from my thyroid being so low . hugs ivy x

[KavanIce]

tcb: No I am saying BPD is who we are but not all of who we are and this is true of the diabetic as it is for everyone else in all areas of life. To say BPD doesn't have us is silly I think as BPD is a condition and not a willful entity in its own right. Its the observing self that is writing these reflections. I agree we are all a sum of the mental and physical but I refrain from using the term spirit as no one seems to have an objective idea of what it means or what they are referring to. The notion of a 'true self' seems a little odd as it infers that there is an untrue self or a self which is a lie. I think it is more accurate to say there is a self which is shown and a self which is hidden but neither are 'untrue'. As for your postitive experience with diabetes, cancer and mental illness I think you should preface that you only speak for yourself. I am sure many would disagree about the marvelous gift of illness. If those experiences have been uselful to you, I am happy for you, I have no reason not to believe you, but I personally would prefer not to have had a history too dark and tragic to look back on. I could have thought of many ways to have spent my youth that didn't include psych units, multiple therapists and psychiatrists, suicide attempts and self-loathing. Sorry but I don't see the gift in any of it. I wouldn't want diabetes nor cancer nor anything of that order just so I can empathize with another's suffering. I would prefer to have had a wonderful life which enabled me to identify with another's joy and success. See what I mean?

About the Self: I don't know what it means to have a self, but I dont agree that indulging oneself is a sign of self. Most people think I am spoiled. I am not self supporting and do not work, I am supported by my mother. I travel more than most and though I am here in NY for a few months, I live in a South Asian country where I can afford massages and spa days, a nice gym, pretty clothes and nice jewelry as it is not very expensive in South East Asia. All of these things make me feel secure for a while and give me pleasure for a while but it doesn't equate or translate into a feeling of Self.

I think its funny how we all speak of inherent uniqueness which everyone supposedly has which means being unique is hardly unique at all. If we were truly unique we wouldn't identify with each other.

Ravenna: It totally makes sense and I think its insightful to realize that it may not be the person per se you fear losing. When there is an opportunity for new love in my life, I often find myself fantasizing about the person to such a degree that it feels as if I am carrying them around inside me. I feel secure and cozy with the thought of them, if I sense that the relationship might not work or become insecure about it I feel cold and empty, unworthy and without. Its frightening to realize how important another person is to my security or sense of self which I derive directly from another. I wish it were not so but I don't know how to make it not so. Its an identity offering, something that seems to overcast me and make me 'someone'. I am someone in someone elses eyes and my purpose is whatever they have assigned me.

[tcb]

Kavanice,

To answer your question about the Spiritual part, I can only share with you my personal experience, just as all my comments have been from my own personal experience.

My suggestion that you spend time with yourself has nothing to do with self-indulgence. It has everything to do with getting to know yourself and taking pleasure in simply being alone with you.

First the easy part: To address your question about everyone being unique. Unique doesn't mean we have NOTHING in common with other people. Unique means that no one has had your exact same life experiences, DNA, body, etc. So, we are each unique.

Re: The Spiritual part. You mention that all your materialistic things don't fill you up, and in fact, leave you feeling empty. That's because nothing in this world is supposed to fill you up. Our days on this Earth numbered, but our time as a Spirit are eternal IF we accept that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and we repent for our sins, ask God for forgiveness.

When you get in touch with your Spiritual part, the emptiness is gone. My Spiritual part gives me strength and it gives me the ability to be grateful regardless of the Cancer, the Diabetes, the BPD, living in poverty, etc. None of that matters.

Ask yourself this: Have you ever felt a sense of there being "something more"? That's your Soul. Have you ever wondered if there was a purpose to your life other than self indulgence?

That, too, is your Soul - nagging at you.

Have you ever been to Church? Have you ever read the Bible?

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteous, and all of these things shall be added onto you."

No, your purpose on Earth is not assigned by someone else. Your purpose can only come from God.

These are all my personal beliefs and I share them here only to bring comfort to you because I can see how painful it is to not have a personal relationship with God.

tcb

[teaspoons]

I am not even sure of what one would refer to as my identity. I have a name yes but no purpose. I know I am Michelle and nothing else. My identity is drawn from others. I am my mother's daughter. I am my lover's lover. When my mother dies I will be no one's daugher and when my lover leaves I will be no ones lover. During those intervals when there isn't a mirror to give me identity and purpose I sit in stasis, waiting for life. Interestingly enough my mother and my lovers all characterize me as someone 'full of life' yet ironically they are the first to feel drained of life from dealing with me. I'm the parasite they cannot identify.

I don't have anything insightful to add here... but i just wanted to say that i really relate to being a reflection of the role you play in someone else's life and not knowing who you are when these people are away. I think i've read somewhere that that's a part of BPD. *scratches head* I don't know. I don't feel that I know who I am... although I know that i love the stars, the blue blue sky and pistachio gelati. I always feel inadequate, as though other people have more awareness of themselves than i do. I think that's just my slightly flawed way of seeing things though. Interesting topic, by the way.

[Amanda28]

I am Amanda, I'm a women, I'm a sister, a daugther, a worker, a narcoleptic, a philosopher, a 22 year old, a human being, a creative person, a canadian, a wife, a dreamer, a writer, and many more. I disagree with not being something once someone leaves/ dies, as i'm still a grand daugther to two grandparents who are deceased. I'm plenty of things. most importantly I am somebody who exists, and this is so wonderful that I do.

[KavanIce]

Hi Amanda: It may not be true that I am not something when other's leave but it's how I feel and the feeling is acute. In reality if I had to challenge the idea I wouldn't be able to come up with anything other than 'I exist' which doesn't always seem to be enough. Society forces us to be more, to simply exist is to be outside the loop, one must 'be' something, 'do' something, etc.

teaspoons: Yes its funny, it is the major feature of bpd and this is why I post the question of who are we outside of that. I find it all really depressing actually, to not feel solid inside myself enough to make anything work. I used to complain of not having a will. It seemed as though there wasn't a strong enough motivating entity inside myself able to push through obstacles.

tcb: I am not sure if this is the place to proselytize but but thanks for your remarks. I am glad you've found something in religion that is useful to you.

[tcb]

tcb: I am not sure if this is the place to proselytize but but thanks for your remarks. I am glad you've found something in religion that is useful to you.

Not "proselytising" at all. YOU kept asking about Spiritual aspect of the Self and when I saw that no one else was addressing this, I reluctantly answered. I say relunctantly because I realize this is a "sticky" topic for some people.

I wish you the best of luck in your continued search. The fact that you are depressed and troubled is actually a good thing. It shows that you are feeling the consequences of missing this crucial Spiritual part of your self.

I would encourage you to keep an open mind and keep searching and asking and you will find it one day.

Best wishes,

tcb

[KavanIce]

tcb: Now you are testing my patience. YES YOU ARE PROSLEYTIZING! And I haven't kept asking questions concerning the spirit. I have said I don't take on the point as people cannot seem to have an objective definition of the term. The thread is about personality and identity. If you don't have anything useful to add outside of your hokey ideas about jesus and the bible please do me a favor take your holier than though self and simply piss off! You belong in church you freak not a mental health forum. Remember what jesus did when he came across the fig tree? It was blooming outside of season and he thought he could eat from it but found it had no fruit. Do you remember what he then did? He cursed it!

...you seem more of a narcissist than borderline to me. How's that for an opinion!

[thatguy]

I'm NOTHING outside of BPD.

This suck-ass "disease" has permeated my entire life since I was born, how could I be anything else?

I have "potential," but I've been told that all my life. I just do not own the tools that can turn potential into reality. BPD are the only tools I have.

Long live this fuckin' MENTAL ILLNESS...If it were eradicated, I'd disappear.

[KavanIce]

Well I hope a long life of bpd suffering isn't the answer. A bundle of potential, yea I can relate to that, but how to acess it? It seems to me that the problem of accessing ourselves has to do with a lack of feeling of oneself as well as for oneself (at least that's what it seems to me). Its the reason why I began the thread. The motivating factor behind active potential is the self and that is what seems too ephemeral to latch on to.

[thatguy]

Well I hope a long life of bpd suffering isn't the answer. A bundle of potential, yea I can relate to that, but how to acess it? It seems to me that the problem of accessing ourselves has to do with a lack of feeling of oneself as well as for oneself (at least that's what it seems to me). Its the reason why I began the thread. The motivating factor behind active potential is the self and that is what seems too ephemeral to latch on to.

I am 45 years old. Ask yourself what employer you know of wishes to have this sonofabitch aboard his ship. My life is well more than half over. Fuck, I'm constantly amazed my stupid crazyass is this old.

[KavanIce]

Thatguy: Well your post gave me a chuckle because I am asking myself the same question. I have a very sketchy work history and didn't finish university (I have rarely had the sustenance to finish anything). Basically the whole work and school thing was a mess and yes I wonder what the future will hold for me. I wonder what I can actually do. If I found something I could actually do I wonder how long it will take before I screw it up. What happens to folk in our particular circumstance? It scares me. When I used to take on volunteer responsibilities for example it was only a matter of time before people discovered there was something wrong with me. Often I start something with sufficient energy only to have it completely dissipate and then I can no longer cope. Usually I just disappear. I have actually walked out of a job and never return even for my paycheck. The memory of it all is disturbing. My whole life I have wanted to write. Sometimes I would but have never been able to finish anything. Often I would rip up and destroy what was written. Now I cannot cope with the idea of writing at all even though its probably one of the few things I ever wanted to accomplish. If I attempt to sit at the table I discover there isn't a 'voice'. Sometimes there is a voice but it isn't my voice or rather it doesn't feel authentic. I don't know. Its also fear A LOT OF FEAR.

[Lily-Bee]

KavanIce can you please tone it down a bit towards tcb?

I gather you are angry about things she said and you have a right to express that but can you do it in a more constructive matter next time?

Calling someone a freak for instance well we dont attack people like that here on the board. Its not right.

Ok?

Lilly

[KavanIce]

Well I don't think she's 'right'. I stand by my words and if she reads what I have written correctly I don't think there will be a reason to have to respond to her at all. If you read my previous posts towards her I was quite courteous but she continued to test my patience. AND if you have read my posts towards others from the time I have joined this site I have never felt the need to react aggressively towards anyone. So maybe there was a cause before the response. I wasn't aware this was a religious forum.