Who Are We Outside Of Bpd?

[thatguy]

Often I start something with sufficient energy only to have it completely dissipate and then I can no longer cope. Usually I just disappear. I have actually walked out of a job and never return even for my paycheck. The memory of it all is disturbing. My whole life I have wanted to write. Sometimes I would but have never been able to finish anything. Often I would rip up and destroy what was written. Now I cannot cope with the idea of writing at all even though its probably one of the few things I ever wanted to accomplish. If I attempt to sit at the table I discover there isn't a 'voice'. Sometimes there is a voice but it isn't my voice or rather it doesn't feel authentic. I don't know. Its also fear A LOT OF FEAR.

SO, tell me how you do this with a wife and three kids who depend upon you alone.

My guess is that you have no idea...

You have no idea. therefore STFU. I have enough troubles.

[KavanIce]

You are right I have no idea what it would be like to suffer through this with a family. I have never been stable enough to end up married and though I have thought it would be nice to have children I am glad I don't because I don't think I would have the energy for it all.

[thatguy]

You are right I have no idea what it would be like to suffer through this with a family. I have never been stable enough to end up married and though I have thought it would be nice to have children I am glad I don't because I don't think I would have the energy for it all.

I apologize. You have as much of a voice as I have here.

I just don't want to hear any "suggestions."

kapische?

[Lily-Bee]

I am not getting into who is wrong or right here as everybody has the right to their opinions. She expressed hers, you expressed yours.

And no this is not a religious board but people can if they want to share how they feel in that regard, your post invited such comments by the nature of it, when some people are asked who they think they are they think of spirit and God and they have a right to express that.

The only thing I am saying is please don´t call people freaks or other such things.

I will leave it at that.

Lilly

[thatguy]

I'm sorry if I got into the middle of something. never meant to.

[Lily-Bee]

Its ok Thatguy you are not in the middle of anything.

Lilly

[KavanIce]

Its okay Thatguy I think you were just caught in a miscommunication quagmire. No one suggested anything, its all cool.

Lilly: I don't think you read the initial post. If you can find anything focusing on spirit, spirituality, the soul or anything of that nature please point it out to me.

[teaspoons]

teaspoons: Yes its funny, it is the major feature of bpd and this is why I post the question of who are we outside of that. I find it all really depressing actually, to not feel solid inside myself enough to make anything work. I used to complain of not having a will. It seemed as though there wasn't a strong enough motivating entity inside myself able to push through obstacles.

Oops! I knew it sounded familiar. I keep away from the definitions though, i find it isn't good for me.

I can relate to what you say about not having a "motivating entity". Although it seems like i just have a negative entity really. (wow, is that who i really am?) It seems like every time i hit a wall i curl up into a ball of negativity and a family member or friend has to pull me out again while i go on about how everything looks hopeless and negative and pointless. These are the thoughts in my head though, every day. :\

I've though about the question more and i think i associate identity with something bigger than just personality traits... and i'm not sure what it is. It's like being in the playground as a kid and peeking into everyone else's lunchbox... it always looks better or more interesting. I think it's just that i have this great big desire to be someone else. Not anyone in particular, just someone else. The grass is always greener on the other side huh?

[KavanIce]

teaspoon: How do you deal with the onslaught of negative thinking you refer to when something doesn't work and it feels like an endless line of failures? I also have friends who would try and pull me out of a slump just to find the negative baggage. How does one ignore the long line of unsurpassed hurdles and remain positive? I would love to know how the supposed 'normal' folk do it because I know some who do, but its like I'm missing a module and they seem to operate in a different reality. I guess I have a negative identity because if I weigh everything in my life, there seems less positive outcomes.

...there must be a trick to this, I'm sure there is :P

[tcb]

tcb: Now you are testing my patience. YES YOU ARE PROSLEYTIZING! And I haven't kept asking questions concerning the spirit. I have said I don't take on the point as people cannot seem to have an objective definition of the term. The thread is about personality and identity. If you don't have anything useful to add outside of your hokey ideas about jesus and the bible please do me a favor take your holier than though self and simply piss off! You belong in church you freak not a mental health forum. Remember what jesus did when he came across the fig tree? It was blooming outside of season and he thought he could eat from it but found it had no fruit. Do you remember what he then did? He cursed it!

...you seem more of a narcissist than borderline to me. How's that for an opinion!

Kavanice:

1) Re your statement: "I haven't kept asking questions concerning the spirit." I would invite you to review your previous statements:

a) "I struggle with the notion of 'being' and 'spirit'. I am not saying it doesn't exist only that I am not sure what people are talking about when they use the term.

"I mean what is the spirit exactly?"

c) " I often hear how ones spirit exists even after death, but what can exist when the main sensory instrument, mind and body, are no longer active to interpret 'being'?"

d) "I agree we are all a sum of the mental and physical but I refrain from using the term spirit as no one seems to have an objective idea of what it means or what they are referring to."

2) Identity and personality encompass body, mind and spirit.

3) This is a forum of mature adults who have BPD. You should be able to engage in a discussion without resorting to hurtrful name calling (ie. "freak," "piss off", "narcissist").

4) As I mentioned several times, these were all my own personal opinions and my comments were all given to help ease your obvious pain.

Do you currently see a psychiatrist or therapist? If not, I would encourage you to seek out their assistance in resolving your issues. If you don't find a good one right off, just keep trying until you find one that you can work well with.

You deserve answers and relief from your pain.

I continue to wish you the best.

tcb

[KavanIce]

tcb: None of that was a response to you. I responded to why I do not discuss spirit/soul whathaveyou. I also mention in the thread I am not looking for answers only musings. I find you and your 'sympathy' condescending and I don't want any advice from you at all. I don't appreciate your point of view. Whether I am in therapy or not is none of your business. Go bother someone else cause you are not helping me but only being annoying. If you continue to come back at me I will assume you are simply being provoking -AND- for your information a 'mature' person knows when to back-off from a confrontation. Where on this site does it say the forums are for 'mature adults with bpd'? I find you passive-aggressive, maybe you should speak to your therapist about that.

[Silkworm]

I am not looking for an answer only discussion, musings, an exploration on these themes

tcb,

Kavan Ice made it very clear she wasn't seeking advice in her initial post. You have your religious beliefs and obviously keen to share how that helps you find identity...fair enough. What you don't have a right to do is be so arrogant as to tell someone that they should do the same thing. Although I don't agree with name calling, I completely agree with Kavan setting a boundary with you about what's acceptable.

What's not acceptable is believing that you are right and she is wrong and she is thus in need of salvation. Your religious beliefs are just that...yours. And before you respond with a long narcissistic post proving just how right you are, I'll save you the trouble. This isn't about right or wrong, or salvation, or finding spirit. This is a thread where Kavan is exploring identity (her's, to be specific). Identity and spirituality aren't joined at the hip for everyone. Your view on that is yours alone, but very obviously not Kavan's.

As Margaret Mead once wrote " You're unique, just like the rest of us".

Sw

[Joshua]

and breatheeeee.

Come on people, lets keep this calm.

Please be aware when posting you may not always hear what you want from the responses but also try to be respectful to the origional poster and their feelings.

[tcb]

Kavanice and Silkworm,

As I said in my posts, I was stating my own personal beliefs and never said that anyone else needs to have the same beliefs.

I'm sorry you didn't hear what you wanted to hear and for any distress this has caused you.

I continue to wish you the very best in your recovery journey.

Joshua,

Thank you.

[InnerPeace]

A low sense of self is a BPD trait and working on self-acceptance/boundaries/inner child can help. So addressing BPD can show us who were are outside of it.

Also, I believe we are the potential that we were at the time of conception. A potential that can be released through healing the cause of BPD (that cause either being within our cells or within our aura that will store negative emotions/energy) or by tapping into that life force that caused us to grow beyond the single cell that we were at conception. Therapies do exist that can achieve this and I have benefitted greatly from them.

I can go into BPD mode or I can quickly get myself grounded, shift my perspective of what's going on and act differently...there is a "me" that is non-BPD.

There is another me on a spiritual level...my soul/higher self/inner child. That intelligent energy which gives me life and exists outside out my body once the mechanics fail, we are much more than matter alone, were are not zombies. I can be in touch with that aspect of myself through mediation at other times when my intuition filters through to my conscious mind.

Just my musings...

[tcb]

More musings....

Innerpeace,

Wow! You are so well-spoken.

That "potential" you describe is what I refer to as my "true"self.

I agree with you that BPD "derails" us from being on track toward reaching our full potential ("true" self).

I think its very important to find a good doctor/therapist to help us find that true sense of self.

[teaspoons]

teaspoon: How do you deal with the onslaught of negative thinking you refer to when something doesn't work and it feels like an endless line of failures? I also have friends who would try and pull me out of a slump just to find the negative baggage. How does one ignore the long line of unsurpassed hurdles and remain positive? I would love to know how the supposed 'normal' folk do it because I know some who do, but its like I'm missing a module and they seem to operate in a different reality. I guess I have a negative identity because if I weigh everything in my life, there seems less positive outcomes.

...there must be a trick to this, I'm sure there is

I think 'normals' or non-BPDs *do* function differently. A lot of us here are probably stuck in patterns that we've been in for years and that sort of work doesn't just go away overnight. I saw my new psychologist yesterday and apparently i can't even breathe properly.

It's generally hard stuff to deal with. I know this from experience, try being a student who gets fairly good marks (this is the one 'good' thing i've always been able to do) and then just snapping and not being able to get anything done. All the feedback i get from this once positive part of my life is now negative, everything i do feels like a failure. My family members are finding me and my negative thinking v. frustrating. :\ There are arguments several times a week. Which just makes me even more hypersensitive and insecure. My friends are used to it by now, it's become who i am (complete with the self-deprecating humour they love me for).

There is a trick to getting out of it i think and it's learning how to fight back against years of conditioning. It's hard work but they tell me it can be done, so here's to hoping they're right.

[KavanIce]

teaspoon: If found this quote today in a biography on artist Anais Nin:

"An artist...is born with a mania to complete himself, to create himself. He is so multiple and amorphous that his central self is constantly falling apart and is only recomposed by his work." -Anais Nin, Ladders to Fire

Its an interesting quote. I don't think borderlines struggle alone on the subject of personality and identity, I think the difference is that some, borderline or not, are able or find a way to sublimate, channel their inner aporia into something creative or something else.

I dont think people who know me would say I am a negative person, they would say I am negative about certain aspects of my life. I am a critical realist and a cynic. I don't allow myself to romanticize issues, I have an aversion to delusional or magical thinking even if its a source of comfort and I don't suffer fools gladly. I prefer full vision as opposed to partial sight. What some of my friends would say is that I find it difficult to remain positive about something that seems unchanging. Doing so would have to defy realistic hope would it not? The trick to this obviously exists, its a matter of discovering out how to access it. I don't think we can access it without insight into how our condition works and I don't think it works for everyone.

The conditioning you speak of, its the groove of habitiual thinking and behaviour, I understand this. What I don't understand is how one is to remain positive about something that seems unchanging no matter how one approaches it which would have to be a major feat. Can the conditioning change by one-self (meaning can the fractured, nebulous self repair itself, change its own programming)? Or can this only happen through the aid of outside intervention?

I have probably seen over 50 psychs or therapists. So many in fact my mother refuses to pay for any mh (don't really blame her).

I have been in and out of ER's until I finally realized going in doesn't really help. At least no more than having a friend lock you in a room for a few days with a television.

Now I don't have access to mh (I live in a country where it simply doesn't exist) so I either have to figure it out by myself or fail. I come here to discuss it because this should be safe place to do so and I hope it is.

[flowergirl]

So I have these questions for consideration:

Who are we outside of our personality?

Can we change our personality? Or is it that we can only change certain aspects of our personality.

I am not looking for an answer only discussion, musings, an exploration on these themes.

I am not able to fully communicate my answer at the moment and doubt that it would be heard, did I give it my time and consideration. I must however say that I find your attitude to one of the main contributors of this post offensive. If you care to read the quotes from your original post above you state that these issues are for consideration, that you are not looking for answers but for discussion, musings and an exploration of these themes. I would say that any of us can only speak from our personal experiences. Personally I am an athiest with a distrust and anger toward the church and religion as a whole, that being for personal reasons. However I dont believe tcb was trying to conform your beliefs etc, he/she was giving you her musings, she gave consideration to her replies and was trying to explore the questions that you put forward.

Maybe in future if you only wish to be told what YOU want to HEAR, then it would be best to first describe what you wish the sheep to follow along with, then maybe you can be satisfied, obviously you have some notion of what you want otherwise you would not be so quick, and harsh to dismiss others.

As for the freaks, pissing off and narcissist comments, I think you maybe show your true colours.

Do you not think that in the "real world" people can be harsh and hurtful enough without coming to a support forum for some additional confrontation. And YES for your information, this forum is for ADULTS, with a range of mental health issues, from DID, Depression, Eating Dissorders, Self Harm, BPD, to name a few, maybe you should bear that in mind when wishing to come to your SAFE PLACE, maybe you should also consider your contribution to the not so SAFE PLACE.

If you only require replies from a select few that share your views maybe you should discuss this through the PM system where you are more likely to get the arse licking replies you obviously desire, and if thats not what you are looking for, perhaps you could appreciate that we are all very different, and as was said UNIQUE, in situation/beliefs/lives etc. Discrimination often tends to come from lack of understanding or appreciation.

Also, if you dont wish to hear from certain people you can always block them, in which case you dont have to see our replies, maybe that would be best for you, but then thats your decision.

[KavanIce]

flowegirl: " I find your attitude to one of the main contributors of this post offensive"

Well I found her offensive and condescending. She said what she had to say and I responded in the way I FOUND APPROPRIATE. I don't see any point in dwelling on the issue any further. But since you wish to bring it up:

I tried to explain to her I was not discussing the soul/spirit nor spirituality.

After being asked about jesus, the bible and whathaveyou, I thanked her for her remarks, told her I was glad she had found something that gave her comfort and told her this wasn't really the place for introducing her religious belief. She continued to harp.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel the need to take sides on something that has already broken off. Maybe you have completely misunderstood me and you sound as if you haven't really read through the thread or you would notice she is the only one I reacted to. You don't know anything about my 'colors' and I don't pretend to know anything about yours nor do I care. I agree there is enough abuse and aggravation out there in the world so I don't expect to be continually harrassed on this site. If you really believed what you wrote you would perhaps be more tolerant and leave the said issue alone...especially since you see yourself as one of the 'mature adult' members. You obviously do not like me but I am not here to be liked, nor am I seeking your approval so take your own advice and ignore me.

[teaspoons]

teaspoon: If found this quote today in a biography on artist Anais Nin:

"An artist...is born with a mania to complete himself, to create himself. He is so multiple and amorphous that his central self is constantly falling apart and is only recomposed by his work." -Anais Nin, Ladders to Fire

Its an interesting quote. I don't think borderlines struggle alone on the subject of personality and identity, I think the difference is that some, borderline or not, are able or find a way to sublimate, channel their inner aporia into something creative or something else.

It is a very interesting quote. It makes me think of how i've devalued myself even further over these last few years. School was my life and for a while it was a good one... but when it collapsed i lost that and i felt like i was nothing. Human beings usually rely on some sense of achievement or satisfaction from their work though. It reminds me of a poem by Anne Sexton "The Ambition Bird". In the lines:

He wants, I want.

Dear God, wouldn't it be

good enough to just drink cocoa?

I think she expresses her frustration and that of the world at this drive we all have in us. I still have that drive, i still have those dreams... it's just that my engine keeps cutting out.

The conditioning you speak of, its the groove of habitiual thinking and behaviour, I understand this. What I don't understand is how one is to remain positive about something that seems unchanging no matter how one approaches it which would have to be a major feat. Can the conditioning change by one-self (meaning can the fractured, nebulous self repair itself, change its own programming)? Or can this only happen through the aid of outside intervention?

I don't know the answers. But i believe it would be possible to do if one could remove themself from their attitudes, to display a sort of detachment from them. This has been achieved by spiritualists such as Wei Wu Wei - an interesting man if nothing else. He talks about the ego and how we must detach ourselves from it, i believe this would help with BPD. I'm not telling you that because it's a spiritual belief i endorse or wish to follow or am advocating but merely because i believe such a technique might help. The use of outside intervention is only good if you let it in, wouldn't you agree? If anyone is to facilitate healing in BPD, it has to be the individual - i believe that.

I have probably seen over 50 psychs or therapists. So many in fact my mother refuses to pay for any mh (don't really blame her).

I have been in and out of ER's until I finally realized going in doesn't really help. At least no more than having a friend lock you in a room for a few days with a television.

I've been in and out of the psych ward a few times myself. It isn't an advocated treatment plan for BPD and most likely that's with good reason. It has helped me in ways though.

I wish you luck with working things out.

[KavanIce]

Teaspoon: I love the Anne Sexton poem, it made me laugh. I googled Wei Wu Wei and there is a site on his thoughts. I haven't read through the whole thing but there is a link of quotes. Interesting. Is it the idea of negation? The negation of the ego? For example he says "It is less what one is that should matter, than what one is not." and "The qualities we possess should never be a matter for satisfaction, but the qualities we have discarded." Anyway I will go through the site.

I know what you mean about still having dreams but having your engine cut off. I think for the past two years I have shut down on the dream department. It seems too risky. I think I will have to wait for a change of weather if it ever comes, so to speak, before I can approach them. There are too many obtacles at the moment and I have had practically zero controll over my life for quite some time.

Yes, I agree outside intervention can only work if one is willing, but one could be willing without any available outside intervention. One can only facilitate healing if there is a path to follow. I don't believe people can exhaust all options but they can exhaust all available options. Complicated as usual.

As for the psych unit it hasn't lead to too much in my life, but yes it had its uses.

[InnerPeace]

Yes, I agree outside intervention can only work if one is willing, but one could be willing without any available outside intervention. One can only facilitate healing if there is a path to follow. I don't believe people can exhaust all options but they can exhaust all available options. Complicated as usual.

As for the psych unit it hasn't lead to too much in my life, but yes it had its uses.

Have you tried any complimentary therapies? I have found reiki, NLP and Metamorphic Technique essential healing. They can be more effective than traditional therapies that only work on a conscious level. Have you read Setting Your Heart On Fire? I found that book invaluable in learning self acceptance.

[teaspoons]

Aha! That's it - the negation of the ego. But not exactly. I don't know, i just think it's important to stress a development of "mindfulness" (DBT concept? eh, who knows...) and a separation from what one feels. Because feelings can be irrational... and they pass. Hard to care about that in the moment though I know.

Complicated as usual.

But isn't that life? Story of mine really.

Ooo.. another self-help book to add to my list, thanks Innerpeace. I tried reading The Power Of Now - what i did read was good... but then things went bad and i lost my place. Do you think self-help books are effective? I'm still a bit skeptical.

[InnerPeace]

Ooo.. another self-help book to add to my list, thanks Innerpeace. I tried reading The Power Of Now - what i did read was good... but then things went bad and i lost my place. Do you think self-help books are effective? I'm still a bit skeptical.

I was never into self help books but I was such a mess once I went looking, it's a book my daughter picked up, she was only 3 and liked the pink and purple cover with a heart on the front! I read the back and bought it. The first time I read it I wasn't really ready for it and found it hard to get into but the second time internal lights were being switched on and it's had a big effect on me.

I haven't read the Power Of Now but know of the principles and find them very good, when I remember to practice them!

Taking counselling training was very effective. Complimentary therapies are fast as they work on the level that we hold all this stuff, regular counselling works on a conscious level, if I stuff was there we would be able to tell ourselves to act/think differently and we would, but we know it's not like that and in a deeper place.