The Borderline Mother.

[Trace]

My foster mother was Borderline/narcisstic. I was watching a prog on TV last night and it showed a short clip of what happens to a baby when mum stops facially interacting with him/her. She continues to smile and laugh, then when that isn't working, she reaches out with her/his hand as well as she can, then when mother still refused to interact, baby looses hope and just continues in survivor mode.

Seeing this makes so much sense to how I am as an adult suffering brom BPD/narcissim..I am always very funny and smiley when in new relationships...then I start to get merose and wanting something more than the other is able to give.....I go through a repetive cycle of trying to reach out to this phantom being and never getting fully satisfied because my unconsious is only registering "yesterdays" trauma and I am not able to see what it is I am actually getting now in my adult yrs and how I can ask for what it is I need.

It was a very short clip, but very informative and helpful in understanding who I am today.

[bibiddi]

How interesting.I like it when I hear of things like that,it does make sense.

What was the programme?Shame I missed it.

[Trace]

How interesting.I like it when I hear of things like that,it does make sense.

What was the programme?Shame I missed it.

It was an episode of "Law and Orders, speicla vicitims unit" they were referring to children in foster care with attachment disorders...its like a big part of the jigsaw in my life has been found...

[lisa c]

My foster mother was Borderline/narcisstic. I was watching a prog on TV last night and it showed a short clip of what happens to a baby when mum stops facially interacting with him/her. She continues to smile and laugh, then when that isn't working, she reaches out with her/his hand as well as she can, then when mother still refused to interact, baby looses hope and just continues in survivor mode.

Seeing this makes so much sense to how I am as an adult suffering brom BPD/narcissim..I am always very funny and smiley when in new relationships...then I start to get merose and wanting something more than the other is able to give.....I go through a repetive cycle of trying to reach out to this phantom being and never getting fully satisfied because my unconsious is only registering "yesterdays" trauma and I am not able to see what it is I am actually getting now in my adult yrs and how I can ask for what it is I need.

It was a very short clip, but very informative and helpful in understanding who I am today.

There is a brilliant book that addresses this issue called 'understanding the borderline mother' not sure of the authors name but you might be able to google it.

[brassed2bits]

Great guys .... but what you are forgetting is that I, and many others on here, are 'Borderline Mothers'

So how does that leave me? I am raising children the best I can. I love my kids and I am bringing them up in what I think is a loving, caring environment.

But what if I am inadvertently damaging them? I struggle with self harm and suicidal thoughts which I keep away from the kids. But how can I be sure I am not 'infecting' them with my BPD? Kids aren't stupid. How can I be sure they will grow up OK?

[lisa c]

Great guys .... but what you are forgetting is that I, and many others on here, are 'Borderline Mothers'

So how does that leave me? I am raising children the best I can. I love my kids and I am bringing them up in what I think is a loving, caring environment.

But what if I am inadvertently damaging them? I struggle with self harm and suicidal thoughts which I keep away from the kids. But how can I be sure I am not 'infecting' them with my BPD? Kids aren't stupid. How can I be sure they will grow up OK?

I know exactly what you mean, I've got two boys and I really do do my best with them, the last thing I want is to fuck them up in the same way that I was fucked up, but I think the difference is that I know I've got problems, I talk about them and I try to face them, my mother could never admit to hers and took it out on me. Kids are also really quite strong when they are sure that they are loved. Were you sure you were loved, I wasn't. My kids know they are loved and I'm sure yours do and I think that that in itself can help to break the cycle. You sound like you are doing everything you can, so give yourself a break.

Take care.

[brassed2bits]

Hi Lisac

Nice to know someone else here agrees with me, and has the same kind of fears I have.

The thing is, my mum would never have thought she was doing anything wrong when I was a kid, and wouldn't think she was odd or that her behaviour was abusive if I dared to ask her now.

I don't think my behaviour is odd or abusive, and I am trying my best to do nothing wrong. So really, I am the same as my mum, therefore the outcome could well be the same with my kids when they are grown up.

When I think like this, I just want to leave now, and let someone else do a better job than I will probably do at bringing up my kids.

[lisa c]

Hi Lisac

Nice to know someone else here agrees with me, and has the same kind of fears I have.

The thing is, my mum would never have thought she was doing anything wrong when I was a kid, and wouldn't think she was odd or that her behaviour was abusive if I dared to ask her now.

I don't think my behaviour is odd or abusive, and I am trying my best to do nothing wrong. So really, I am the same as my mum, therefore the outcome could well be the same with my kids when they are grown up.

When I think like this, I just want to leave now, and let someone else do a better job than I will probably do at bringing up my kids.

Hi B2B

The fact that you're on here talking shows that your path has diverged from your mum's. But I know what you mean, if I even get the merest hint that somebody is criticising my parenting I feel like throwing in the towel and walking away, I don't ever actually do it though. It's okay to feel like doing stuff, just as long as you know not to actually do it (I think). Do you think your mum asked herself the questions that you ask yourself? Do you think that when your kids are older that they wouldn't 'dare' to ask you stuff? I have made a vow to always be honest with my kids and if I do stuff wrong or if I inadvertantly upset them, I want them to always be able to talk to me about it and I hope to God that I am strong enough to say sorry to them for anything I have done to hurt them. This is where me and my mum differ, she just won't talk to me about my childhood so I have no way of getting any validation and I'm still too scared of her to insist. I have a problem with disciplining my kids, I just find it so difficult to tell them off and I know that sometimes they need it, but I don't trust my own judgement enough and in a way I think that a lack of discipline is abuse in itself, it doesn't teach kids to deal with the real world when they think they can walk all over people. God it's so hard to do the right thing isn't it.

[brassed2bits]

Lisac

Yes, I know what you mean. I find it hard to tell my kids off, never smack or hit them, always try to reason with them, and try to get them to talk to me if they have a problem. I also have adult friends who I ask to keep a look out for them, and ask my friends to tell me if they think I am doing anything wrong. Infact, my kids regularly spend time with other adults, in the hope that if they ever had a problem they couldnt tell me about, they would tell them.

I am paranoid I know, and I often wonder if I am going the other way .... too much checking and worrying about them, and getti ng other people involved. (true borderline I know ,...extremes) but it just seems such an important job, bringing up well rounded kids with no emotional scars. I often think that it is far too late for me to have a happy childhood, and have made it a bit of a crusade to give my kids what I didn't have.

Time will tell though. In the meantime, I worry every day.

[lisa c]

Lisac

Yes, I know what you mean. I find it hard to tell my kids off, never smack or hit them, always try to reason with them, and try to get them to talk to me if they have a problem. I also have adult friends who I ask to keep a look out for them, and ask my friends to tell me if they think I am doing anything wrong. Infact, my kids regularly spend time with other adults, in the hope that if they ever had a problem they couldnt tell me about, they would tell them.

I am paranoid I know, and I often wonder if I am going the other way .... too much checking and worrying about them, and getti ng other people involved. (true borderline I know ,...extremes) but it just seems such an important job, bringing up well rounded kids with no emotional scars. I often think that it is far too late for me to have a happy childhood, and have made it a bit of a crusade to give my kids what I didn't have.

Time will tell though. In the meantime, I worry every day.

I think you're brilliant just for trying so hard, for being so aware of all the dangers! Look at all those people out there who just don't give a shit about their kids, we're not like that. I think it's good that they get to be with other adults and that you are willing to take on board other people's advice. I think your kids are lucky to have you and I wish I'd had a mum like you!!

[sundries]

there is a really good book called 'surviving hte borderline mother' or it might be parent

i think what you say is right. the difference is we KNOW we have problems and even if we dont the children get hte validation of others saying we lack insight - because we have been in hte services. Plus i reckon social services probably keeps a closer eye on us

[brassed2bits]

LisaC/sundries

Thanks guys.

Nice to hear your positive thoughts. I will still always worry though!

[Xanthrax]

This one always makes me smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kAkkXrdADwY&amp...ted&search=

My dad always said he refused to adopt because he didn't trust himself not to beat a child that wasn't his own. I mean, is this really a man that should be in charge of *any* child? He didn't beat me, but he did more subtle abuse towards me to vent his anger, such as 'washing my hair' by holding me by the ankles and dunking my head in the bath water until I started to choke. I won't even get started on my mother.

[lisa c]

This one always makes me smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kAkkXrdADwY&amp...ted&search=

My dad always said he refused to adopt because he didn't trust himself not to beat a child that wasn't his own. I mean, is this really a man that should be in charge of *any* child? He didn't beat me, but he did more subtle abuse towards me to vent his anger, such as 'washing my hair' by holding me by the ankles and dunking my head in the bath water until I started to choke. I won't even get started on my mother.

It's hard to know where to start when trying to talk about childhood isn't it. There's just so much stuff. You say 'subtle abuse' but that is bloody horrible, my mum used to do that sort of stuff but she would tell me that I was lucky because other kids were getting beaten and abused every day of their lives. A cliche, I know, but you need a license to keep a dog but any old dog can have a kid. Take care.

[Xanthrax]

Yeah, the thing is I don't actually remember these incidents very well, my mother told me she caught him doing it after a while. Apparently I'd told her what he was doing but he denied it until she caught him in the act. I had a phobia of water until I was eight, probably as a result of this.

Unfortunately, when I was a child I treated my pets in the same way that my parents treated me. I still feel guilty about that. A stain on my conscience... Sometimes I feel like Lady Macbeth 'Out damned spot, out I say!!!' How do our parents live in peace with themselves? Do they suffer no pangs of conscience? Mine seem to have no remorse whatsoever. In fact they denied that what happened was abuse. So therein, I suppose, lies my answer.

[lisa c]

Yeah, the thing is I don't actually remember these incidents very well, my mother told me she caught him doing it after a while. Apparently I'd told her what he was doing but he denied it until she caught him in the act. I had a phobia of water until I was eight, probably as a result of this.

Unfortunately, when I was a child I treated my pets in the same way that my parents treated me. I still feel guilty about that. A stain on my conscience... Sometimes I feel like Lady Macbeth 'Out damned spot, out I say!!!' How do our parents live in peace with themselves? Do they suffer no pangs of conscience? Mine seem to have no remorse whatsoever. In fact they denied that what happened was abuse. So therein, I suppose, lies my answer.

God, I did the same to my pets and I still feel awful to this day. My mother is Lady Macbeth 'thus far steeped in blood, should I not not wade further' or something like that, can't remember, it's as though whenever she does something wrong, she covers it up by doing something worse. She has spent her life piling guilt upon guilt to the degree that she just doesn't have guilt as an emotion anymore, but I think one day she's going to feel it and I think the aftermath for her will be horrendous and the funny thing is I don't want her to go through that. I suspect your parents have done the same thing. I can remember being five years old and my mother going absolutely mad, pushing me against a treasure chest that we had in the hallway, sticking a penknife in my face and through gritted teeth saying 'stop fucking crying or I'll slit your pretty, fucking face' When I have asked her about this she just said 'oh yeah, well I was working something through'!! No apology or anything, I was just a tool she used to work out her problems!!! And yet I still love her and I still wish she would be a mother to me, why is this?

[brassed2bits]

Lisa C

I read your posts, and your experiences sound so familiar. Did we grow up in the same house?

I find it impossible to talk about the things my mum did ... too hard to say the words ... like if I say them, she will hear me and come after me to shut me up. I am scared.

You are so brave actually telling out loud what happened.

[lisa c]

Lisa C

I read your posts, and your experiences sound so familiar. Did we grow up in the same house?

I find it impossible to talk about the things my mum did ... too hard to say the words ... like if I say them, she will hear me and come after me to shut me up. I am scared.

You are so brave actually telling out loud what happened.

hi B2B

Thanks so much for that, I always think that nobody believes me and for a long time I never spoke of any of the stuff that happened when I was little. I think you just get to the point where you just say it anyway because it is impossible to keep it in, I know the words are hard to find and I am, to this day, terrified of my mum!! Have you had any therapy? That's how I started to learn how to speak out. Take care. (wish we had grown up in the same house, we could have looked after each other)

[arwentheelfqueen]

Where I've heard attachment theory linked with BPD is to the patients who have BPD, not mothers who have BPD. Patients with BPD have attachment difficulties from experiences in their first year of life. Peter Fonagy is a leading researcher of this, and it fascinates me that so many problems can develop from mothers' behavior in even th e first few days after birth. If you are a mother with BPD, it doesn't mean that your behavior toward your children will lead to attachment difficulties, but it means that you might have attachment difficulties yourself because of your relationship with your mother. That's my opinion, anyway, though I'm not a shrink.

I really relate to those stories of abuse out there. Sometimes I tell someone I had a bad childhood, and without knowing any details they just blow it off and say it couldn't have been as bad as theirs, though given the measure of their functioning and adjustment, I would beg to argue with them. For the most part I find it better to keep my childhood experience a secret because people just don't understand and then it results in hurting me. I don't understand how most people can be so callous. If someone else told me they had suffered, I would believe them. It just hurts to tell anyone but sometimes I just feel like I want to express myself.

Sometimes I go through periods where all of my nightmares are about my mother coming after me and I'm trying to hide from her. Night after night all night long I would have nightmares about my mother, really unrelenting.

arwen

[brassed2bits]

(((((arwen))))) I can relate to your nightmares about your mother. I often dream about mine .... all horrible, some dreams end with her being wounded or hurt, and I sometimes wonder if it is for real, and if she really has died.

((((lisac)))) I wish we had known each other when we were young. You sound nice! x

[lisa c]

Where I've heard attachment theory linked with BPD is to the patients who have BPD, not mothers who have BPD. Patients with BPD have attachment difficulties from experiences in their first year of life. Peter Fonagy is a leading researcher of this, and it fascinates me that so many problems can develop from mothers' behavior in even th e first few days after birth. If you are a mother with BPD, it doesn't mean that your behavior toward your children will lead to attachment difficulties, but it means that you might have attachment difficulties yourself because of your relationship with your mother. That's my opinion, anyway, though I'm not a shrink.

I really relate to those stories of abuse out there. Sometimes I tell someone I had a bad childhood, and without knowing any details they just blow it off and say it couldn't have been as bad as theirs, though given the measure of their functioning and adjustment, I would beg to argue with them. For the most part I find it better to keep my childhood experience a secret because people just don't understand and then it results in hurting me. I don't understand how most people can be so callous. If someone else told me they had suffered, I would believe them. It just hurts to tell anyone but sometimes I just feel like I want to express myself.

Sometimes I go through periods where all of my nightmares are about my mother coming after me and I'm trying to hide from her. Night after night all night long I would have nightmares about my mother, really unrelenting.

arwen

It's the worst thing in the world to not be believed, especially considering the amount of courage it takes to be able open your mouth about these things. I believe you. Have you thought about writing something in the unspoken section? You know, just get it all off your chest, nobody out here in cyberspace knows you, nobody is going to judge you and, trust me, it really helps to speak about it, you have got all these horrible memories inside you, this poor, little, hurt child that is stuck back there in time, well she needs a voice, you need a voice. I have dreadful nightmares as well, I find that when this has happened it sets my mood for the day, I wake up terrified and spend the entire day in a daze. It just feels like you have been thrust back there doesn't it. Take care.

[lisa c]

(((((arwen))))) I can relate to your nightmares about your mother. I often dream about mine .... all horrible, some dreams end with her being wounded or hurt, and I sometimes wonder if it is for real, and if she really has died.

((((lisac)))) I wish we had known each other when we were young. You sound nice! x

Thanks, B2B, and the same to you! It's funny, I can't even be this open with my closest friends and yet on here it feels easier doesn't it, warmer somehow.x

[gingerwoman]

I've read "UNderstanding the Borderline Mother" It was just amazing because she described my childhood perfectly in the chapter on the "Witch Mother" (she divides different kinds of borderline mothers into catogories.)

She describes how some borderline mothers focus all their self hate on one child and all their self love on the other child. She calls them "the all bad child" and "the all good child".

Well that was my childhood.

Then after describing my childhood perfectly she said something DEVASTING and CRUEL at the end. It is the only cruel and unfair thing she says in the book

She says "It is only a matter of time before the ALL BAD child of the WITCH mother becomes a borderline mother.

I am a mother of two boys. I do make mistakes. One big difference is that my mother NEVER apologised for anything. If I lose it and shout at my son I apologise to him afterwards and say I was wrong to shout.

That's something right?

My son tells me everyday how much he loves me so that's somethign right?

My other one is only 1 and a half.

I never thought my mother ever thought she was wrong with all the physical, verbal and emotional abuse but when she was dying she said "Sorry I was a bad mother."

I was shocked cause I never even knew she thought she was. I was angry that she'd never admitted to any failings as a mother before and always put everything she did on to my being an inferior and unlikable person.

[brassed2bits]

((((Ginger))))

What an awful statement to have read at the end of that book.

God, that would totally screw me up .... I think I am a bad mother/person anyway, without reading someone who doesn't know me make such a judgement.

Don't know what I can say to make you feel better, but yes, maybe because you question, and apologise, and have some awareness, then it shows that things are different.

I often wish I could forward time 30 years or so to see if my kids like me and are OK as adults. Then I could live in peace NOW.

Not possible unfortunately.

[lisa c]

I've read "UNderstanding the Borderline Mother" It was just amazing because she described my childhood perfectly in the chapter on the "Witch Mother" (she divides different kinds of borderline mothers into catogories.)

She describes how some borderline mothers focus all their self hate on one child and all their self love on the other child. She calls them "the all bad child" and "the all good child".

Well that was my childhood.

Then after describing my childhood perfectly she said something DEVASTING and CRUEL at the end. It is the only cruel and unfair thing she says in the book

She says "It is only a matter of time before the ALL BAD child of the WITCH mother becomes a borderline mother.

I am a mother of two boys. I do make mistakes. One big difference is that my mother NEVER apologised for anything. If I lose it and shout at my son I apologise to him afterwards and say I was wrong to shout.

That's something right?

My son tells me everyday how much he loves me so that's somethign right?

My other one is only 1 and a half.

I never thought my mother ever thought she was wrong with all the physical, verbal and emotional abuse but when she was dying she said "Sorry I was a bad mother."

I was shocked cause I never even knew she thought she was. I was angry that she'd never admitted to any failings as a mother before and always put everything she did on to my being an inferior and unlikable person.

That's so bad and a load of crap. The child of the witch only turns into the witch is when she has no insight whatsoever. You do!!