Social Services Want To Take Unborn Baby Because Of Past Self Harm

[Patty12]

Fran's own website. Social services targetting her because of self harm in her past,and unfair accusations of possible MSBP,as she has harmed herself.

http://www.wardrobehudson.co.uk/askingforachance/Home.html

this is Fran's own website.

Fran is expecting a baby but social services want to remove it as they say the baby may be at risk of possible emotional harm.

She had mental health problem at 16. She recovered from it and gained 5 A levels and a neuroscience degree.

Social Services are using her self harm against herself, in the past,to say she is at risk of munchausens by proxy and of emotionally harming her child.

They say because she has self harmed that she may harm her baby,to gain attention for herself.

A paeditrician who had never seen her,and who was paid by social services for the assessment,said she is at risk of MSBP.

2 Psychiatrists says she is no risk but the Telegraph paper revealed the social worker has tried to coerce the Doctors into agreeing with social services.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...nsecrecy102.xml

Please help this lady if you can by visiting her website.

[Lily-Bee]

Thats terrible!!

I am hesitant to say more though because we dont know the full story...........

Lilly

[manxminx]

The ,ink in the first post doesn't work. The actual link to the newspaper article is

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...nsecrecy102.xml

It's not a forgone conclusion that the baby will be taken from her, the decision was just an initial one and is subject to further assessments and she also has the right to appeal.

From reading the various newspaper articles, I'd tend to (cautiously) side with the mother.

Ali.

[Vorpalblade]

SS obviously have good reason for this. I mean, they will have been in contact with her shrink/GP etc, there is obviously something going on, or something that has happened that she isnt letting the world know!

[InnerPeace]

If only more children were taken into care when they should be...

[drew]

i dont think its the case that every one that sh -- ss will try and get the child took off the parents - i know some one who sh and had a food disorder and was given alot of support when she became pregnant ss helped her find a nursery place and stuff like that

[Vorpalblade]

that's what i am saying Drew, there is obviously something else going on

[zarah]

its actually really difficult to get a plan in place to remove a baby before its born

she clearly has done something else....

there is more to this than she is letting on

if it was just the self harm issues then she would receive additional support...

Z

[emmylou_1985]

I am ashamed to say that, I self harmed, became extr3emely depressed, suicidal and took an overdose whilst pregnant and although my midwife, doctor and the hospital knew, ss were not even informed or even mentioned. I am thinking also that there must be something else going on here.

[Joshua]

Can we try and keep judgements to a minimum as we dont know the full story.

I hear of social services over reacting and under reacting quite often.

I would like to help this young lady if possible, or at least understand some more about the case.

[angelcat104]

There is a heck of a lot of flak bin thrown at childrens services (maybe rightly, maybe wrongly) over the huge rise in numbers of very very young children being adopted... From what i've read this has been caused by the govs want 2 reduce the number of children in care... There are a huge number of pppl who want to adopt babies only... Coming from a care kid point of view the best thing would be for this lady to recieve intensive support. Not to be criminalised.. read her story! She admits she was hospitalised many years ago and that the ppl they have consoluted do not even know her!

[Patty12]

My baby will be taken from me the moment it's born

By HELEN WEATHERS - More by this author »

Last updated at 11:30am on 6th September 2007

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More polls » The daughter of teachers and with a glittering academic future, Fran was delighted when she became pregnant. But social services discovered the illness she thought she'd put behind her - and will confiscate her daughter when she is born...

Fran Lyon is due to give birth to her first child - a daughter she has already named Molly - on January 3. But the prospect, far from being one of joyous anticipation, fills her with a dread that keeps her awake at night.

It's not because Fran doesn't want the child. She does. Desperately. And not because she is frightened of the pain of labour. She is prepared for that.

It is what happens afterwards that fuels Fran's anxiety. And there can be no preparation for that pain.

For within 30 minutes of birth, barring any medical complications, Molly will be handed by doctors to social workers. They have instructions to take away Fran's newborn baby and place her in foster care.

The 22-year-old will then be transferred from the maternity wing to a gynaecological ward, because Northumberland Council has decided that Fran - who has never harmed anyone in her life - is potentially a risk to other mothers and their babies.

Fran has no idea if she will be able to touch her baby, even for a minute, before leaving hospital alone, or if she will ever get her daughter back. Her biggest fear is that she won't, and that Molly will be put up for adoption.

'It is incredibly upsetting not knowing if I will be allowed even to hold my baby,' says Fran, a charity worker. 'Until social services became involved in my life, I was having a normal pregnancy and was full of excitement.

'They have taken away what should be the most precious time in my life - and I will never get that back. I'm already in love with my baby. I can feel her moving, I talk to her. I've bought her baby books and clothes. You just can't undo that attachment.'

Fran is an intelligent and articulate woman. She has nine A- starred GCSEs, five grade A A-levels and is in the third year of a neuroscience degree at Edinburgh University - which she is completing at home in Hexham, Northumberland.

However, what concerns Hexham Children's Services, which is part of Northumberland Council, is Fran's medical history.

Having had a difficult relationship with her parents, who are teachers in good state schools, from the age of 15, she started selfharming. Fran spent three years - on and off - in psychiatric hospitals.

Her problems appear to have begun when she was raped by an acquaintance at the age of 14. Diagnosed with a borderline personality disorder, she was discharged from a therapeutic facility in 2002, where she had spent 13 months, and spent nine months as an outpatient.

Today, she needs no medication and, according to her former psychiatrist, Dr Stella Newrith, 'has made a significant recovery to the point where her difficulties are indistinguishable from those of much of the general population'.

In a letter to Northumberland Council, Dr Newrith, who treated Fran for a year when she was 16 and has known her for many years, stated: 'There has never been any clinical evidence to suggest that Fran would put herself or others at risk, and there is certainly no evidence to suggest she would put a child at risk of emotional, physical or sexual harm.'

Furthermore, she said: 'I would view the removal of Fran's baby as an extraordinarily heavy-handed gesture. It is also my professional opinion that doing so would be an infringement of Fran's human rights, as it would be much the same as removing a child from someone from the general population.'

Yet on August 16, a child protection case conference recommended that Fran's baby should be taken away at birth - a decision based in part on the contents of a letter from consultant paediatrician Dr Martin Ward Platt, who has never met Fran and could not be present at the meeting.

In his letter, Dr Ward Platt states that 'even in the absence of psychological assessment, if the professionals were concerned on the evidence available that [this woman] probably does fabricate or induce illness, there would be no option but to put the baby into foster care at birth pending a post-natal forensic psychological assessment'.

However, he warned that it was necessary first to establish as far as possible whether or not Fran does suffer from this illness - something Fran claims they have failed to do.

Fran has never been diagnosed with this condition, yet she has nevertheless been deemed by Northumberland Council as someone likely to suffer from Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, a controversial and unproven condition in which a parent - usually the mother - makes up or induces an illness in her child to draw attention to herself.

And so, unless a judicial review next week rules in Fran's favour, her baby Molly will almost certainly be taken away at birth.

'I can understand why they might have concerns about my past, but the speed with which they have come to this conclusion, despite the evidence of my own psychiatrist, is terrifying,' she says.

'I was at the case conference and it lasted just ten minutes.

'This letter from Dr Ward Platt was given to me just five minutes before the meeting started, and when it was produced, the chairman said there was no point - in the light of what this letter stated - even considering the other evidence which I wanted to present, which was letters of support from psychiatrists.

'I think they simply panicked, and when people panic they make, in my opinion, bad judgments. I left that meeting numb with shock. I'd had absolutely no time to digest the letter or argue my case, and I was so horrified at what they'd said that I just couldn't even begin to respond to it.

'I have never harmed anyone in my life. I have no criminal convictions. I believe I can be a good mother to Molly - but they are not even prepared to give me a chance to prove that.

'I have offered to stay in a mother and baby unit after Molly's birth for as long as they want, and to be monitored. I would be prepared to stay there for 18 years if it meant I could be with my baby. But that, it seems, is not even an option.'

Fran's case is far from unusual. Two thousands babies under one year old were taken from their parents last year by social services - three times the number ten years ago. Critics believe councils are doing this to help meet government adoption 'targets'.

Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming, chairman of the Justice for Families campaign group, certainly thinks so.

'How can it be in the child's best interests to take a baby away from its mother at birth? The reason why they do it is because it's much harder to take away a baby the longer it spends with its mother, and a healthy newborn baby is so much easier to find adoptive parents for.

'It is estimated that 97 per cent of babies taken away from their mothers at birth, on the basis that the mothers are "capable of emotional abuse", are never returned to them - and that is simply scandalous.

'Of course, there are cases where it is right to do so, but the whole public family law system is corrupt because of the secrecy which surrounds it. Decisions are based on opinion and conjecture, rather than fact and evidence.

'What does Fran's case tell us? That no woman who has been raped or had mental health problems can be allowed to have a baby, even years later?

'What could be more traumatic than for a mother to have her baby taken away at birth? It's monstrous. That, in itself, can cause mental health problems, which is then used by social services against the mother as a reason not to return the baby. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

'There has been a massive increase in younger babies being taken into care, before there is even any evidence of harm - and you have to ask why that is.'

Despite her own troubled past, Fran Lyon is convinced she can be a good parent, and is desperate to prove that. From the start, she has been open and honest with social workers about her medical history, but she feels this has been used against her.

Although she describes her childhood as 'difficult', she refuses to elaborate, other than to say that she is close to her mother and younger brother, but has no contact with her father.

The catalyst for her severe mental health problems was, she says, the rape she suffered when she was 14.

She told police that she was attacked while working as a Saturday volunteer in a charity shop in Northampton, when the shop's founder - a middle-aged man - drove her to an empty warehouse supposedly to pick up supplies for the shop.

When Fran reported the rape, he was interviewed by police. Three more women claiming they, too, had been attacked came forward and agreed to testify against him. However, in 2001 the man killed himself before the Crown Prosecution Service could decide whether to proceed.

'After the rape, I became clinically depressed,' says Fran. 'I lost a huge amount of weight and was admitted to a psychiatric hospital after trying to kill myself with an overdose of tablets. It wasn't a cry for help; I wanted to die because of what he had done to me.'

She spent the next three years, on and off, in residential psychiatric hospitals in Oxford, Nottingham and London after being diagnosed with a borderline personality disorder, in her case characterised by self-harming, instability and suicidal tendencies.

For the final 13 months, Fran went to a therapeutic residential clinic, where she attended individual psychotherapy sessions and group analysis before being discharged as an outpatient.

By the time she was 18, she appeared to have put her problems behind her.

She started to flourish, taking five A-levels at Orpington College in Kent and applying to study neuroscience at Edinburgh University.

At the same time, she worked for two mental health charities, Borderline and Personality Plus. It was through that job, two years ago, that she met the man who is the father of Molly.

'Of course, I was worried when I fell pregnant. I wondered how we would cope as a couple, because we weren't living together,' says Fran.

'But once that wore off, I was excited. I would go shopping with my mum to baby departments, buying books and looking at prams.'

But a few weeks ago, all normality ended. Social services suddenly became involved when Fran phoned the police after what she describes as a 'disturbing incident' with her partner. Fran's relationship with him ended immediately.

'The case was referred to social services and I was interviewed by two social workers, who said from the beginning that they would have to look at the whole family, not just one person in isolation,' says Fran.

'At that first meeting, they asked about my concerns regarding the baby's father, but then it became clear through their questions that their investigation was centred on me. I have never made a secret of my mental health problems. I felt I had nothing to hide.'

Fran was co- operative, she says, because she naively thought children's services would offer her help and support. She was stunned when she received a letter informing her that a child protection case conference would be held on August 16.

'That's when I became frightened and thought for the first time: "Are they going to take my baby away from me?"

'I couldn't believe how everything had happened so quickly. When you are up against a big system such as social services, it is very easy to feel overrun and overwhelmed.'

Realising the seriousness of the situation, Fran instructed a solicitor and contacted her former psychiatrist, Dr Stella Newrith, who offered her full support.

A second psychiatrist, who Fran knew through her charity work, offered a character reference stating: 'I have no doubt that her diligence and capacity, particularly in dealing with complex emotional situations, will stand her in good stead for the rigours of parenthood.'

Yet these testimonials, Fran says, were never even read out at the conference after Dr Ward Platt's letter was produced.

Northumberland Council insists that two highly experienced doctors - another consultant paediatrician and a medical consultant - attended the case conference.

Neither they, nor anyone else present - including Fran solicitor - made any objection. Feeling stunned and intimidated by what she had heard, she felt unable to speak out.

Everything she wanted to say will now be heard - with the help of a new solicitor who specialises in such cases - at appeal.

According to MP John Hemming, Fran should win her case; but there is no guarantee that she will. Both he and Fran are particularly concerned that last week social workers contacted the psychiatrist who provided a character reference for Fran. They believe this was done with the intention of 'pressurising' the witness into withdrawing his support, and undermining Fran's appeal.

It was seemingly suggested by a social worker to the doctor in question that Fran had given incorrect details about her health to hospital staff: in short, doubt was cast on the reality of an ectopic pregnancy Fran suffered on Christmas Eve two years ago.

'Is it ethical for social workers to go behind my back and speak to my witnesses, discussing my private confidential medical history and suggesting to them that I might have made things up?' says Fran.

'I did have an ectopic pregnancy, and I have the scars to prove that I had abdominal surgery.' Mr Hemming goes further, describing such behaviour as akin to witness nobbling. He also claims it is not uncommon for social workers to pressurise witnesses - a punishable practice in the criminal courts.

'There is a culture in which the end is seen to justify the means, and sometimes the means employed would not be tolerated in any other court of law,' he says. 'Yet if anyone tries to speak out, they are guilty of contempt of court. The whole family court system, because of the secrecy which surrounds it, is vulnerable to bad practice. Social workers are under pressure not to lose cases.' Northumberland Council, while legally prevented from speaking about individual cases, insists there is nothing sinister in their actions.

A spokeswoman said it was the court whichwould make the ultimate decision, after hearing legal representation from both sides. 'Safeguarding children is our top priority,' said a spokeswoman. 'We speak to all sides without bias or pressure. 'We would welcome a review of the family court arrangements, and support transparency, as long as this is in the best interests of the children.

'Safeguarding arrangements have been praised as good following a rigorous inspection by a number of Government departments. It was specifically noted that "good action was taken to enable parents to keep their children safe in the home and the communityî. Our duty to safeguard children is our only motivation, and we strive to keep children with their families wherever possible, or extended families if that is not possible.

'We do not have numerical targets for adoption; nor have we received any financial rewards in relation to adoption figures.'

As for Fran, the final four months of her pregnancy are filled with stress and uncertainty, and the nagging terror that her worst nightmare will become a reality and her baby daughter will be snatched away from her. 'Some days I feel positive,' she says quietly.

'But others I feel totally overwhelmed. All I am asking for is a chance to prove that I will be a good mother.'

Sadly, that wish may not be granted her.

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12 people have commented on this story so far. Tell us what you think below.

Here's a sample of the latest comments published. You can click view all to read all comments that readers have sent in.

These social workers have damaged so many lives with their left wing politically correct out of real lives they live.

I disliked them years ago, and my dislike just intensifies.

- Karen, USA

Does the father have no rights?

Can she not go to Canada to live for the last few weeks and give birth there?

- Sherie Bradbeer, Toronto, Canada

Totally outrageous, the baby belongs with her mother...if needed get her some support.

- Julia Besson, Chester UK

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Name:

[Patty12]

I am a bit disheartened by the responses. Actually it is really easy to get a plan in place before a baby is born. You don't need any evidence of significant harm.Just a referral will do.You dont know the way social services operate.they have huge power. there are more children taken from parents with mental health problems than any other group. Even if a mother has been on anti depressants in the past that can be used against her in the courts even if she is now ell.

Mothers are having social services intervention and the threat of having their baby removed because they have had a previous episode of post natal depression.

When I had PND,I was given 2 months to get well. Real Story on BBC revealed this is happening frequently.

It is actually really easy to get a parent to court. Social services just exaggerate a person's mental health history and make up something-the mum is going to kill herself and child.Then they get the police out. My mental health team were outraged as such lies but the SS did not do their job and contact my doctors.

Fran's story shows that 2 psychiatrists said that she is no danger to a child and they actually contacted the press to say the social workers were trying to coerce her to change their minds.

Also her own psychiatrist who treated her said that she will make a good mum and has recovered from borderline personality disorder. I help parents who are having problems with social services and there are a lot of parents falsely diagnosed with munchausens by proxy. In fact the a government committee was set up as a group of MP's were so worried about the over diagnosing of MSBP. It is actually very rare indeed but social services are diagnosing it at an alarming rate.

Social services also in court get to choose the expert Doctors. these doctors are paid thousands of pounds for 1 report by social services.

Parents are forced to see unreputable or discredited doctors,or doctors that Social workers know will give them what they want due to the huge sums involved anfd they will be guaranteed more work.

Fran was diagnosed a possible risk of MSBP by a paeditrician that had never even met her. This is what I am talking about. I was diagnosed with numerous personality disorders by an expert that had never even seen me. My own doctors said that I had not got all these disorders. In fact this doctor was wrong about everything.

I think this MSBP is being used to falsely diagnose people who have had issues in the past and the social workers as in my case,had prejudice against anyone who has a personality disorder or a previously diagnosed disorder.

Although there are good social workers who will help a family. I was lucky that in court I got a new team that were professional and criticised previous team,after just asking for respite after numerous bereavements. If the new team hadnt stepped in,my solicitor said she would have been extremely worried that I would have lsot child.It only takes a bad social worker and manager and they can wreck a family,as the government have given social workers unaccountable power.

Fran's case is not unique.this is happening all the time and the family courts are secret. When Fran's baby is born if she publicises details she can go to jail for contempt of court.So the public can't see what is going on. If people think that the court is a just,fair and open process that will return baby then sadly,with respect you don't know how the courts act.

I hope you can be sympathetic to Fran as one day it may happen to one of you.

[lisa c]

Can we try and keep judgements to a minimum as we dont know the full story.

I hear of social services over reacting and under reacting quite often.

I would like to help this young lady if possible, or at least understand some more about the case.

I agree, this is really frightening and there really are so many cases of social services getting it wrong. I've got kids and the thought of them being taken away because I have self harmed is unbearable.

[Picali]

Can we try and keep judgements to a minimum as we dont know the full story.

I hear of social services over reacting and under reacting quite often.

I would like to help this young lady if possible, or at least understand some more about the case.

I agree, this is really frightening and there really are so many cases of social services getting it wrong. I've got kids and the thought of them being taken away because I have self harmed is unbearable.

I was treated appallingly by ss. I was accused of fabricating my son's autism because I have bi-polar. They conducted a child protection enquiry in secret, without my knowledge or involvement, and didn't once contact my doctor about my own health (I had one episode three years ago and nothing since, and that episode wasn't a bad one by bp standards), or any professional who knew my son. They didn't access (or even ask for) any medical records for either of us. We went away for Christmas and extended our holiday by four days (we were staying with friends and having such a nice time they suggested we stay until the New Year). SS declared that showed a lack of stability due to bi-polar. I can understand why people find it hard to believe that ss can behave in a highly unprofessional and suspect manner - I would never have believed that before either. I was truly shocked at their rude and hostile attitude and their absolute refusal to follow procedures and to behave fairly (I should point out that the initial referral came from my mum - she regularly makes malicious allegations about me. I told them this, and they would have seen, if they'd checked my medical records and previous social service records, that I was being truthful about that. Instead, they documented my insistence that she was being malicious as 'evidence' of my mental health problems). They lied to me, lied about me, gave very personal information to my son's school teacher and generally behaved in the most appalling manner.

Approximately 15,000 parents were accused of having msbp last year. A group called Consensus put together a report on the issue - you can read it on www.mensaid.co.uk. What's going on in the UK at the moment is truly terrifying. As I said, I understand why some people find it hard to believe, but the level of discrimination is high. If you have mental health difficulties and children I would be very, very careful. I've spoken to a number of women who've asked for help whilst they've battled post-natal depression who've subsequently lost their children to adoption - the reason used is, as they have depression, they might emotionally abuse their children in the future. We really are in the grip of something terrible in the UK today. I too know of social services being helpful in times of need, but it depends entirely on the social worker you are allocated. The sw we had when I really was ill was lovely. Three years on, having no health problems at all, they ripped my life apart. It took me months to prove what they were saying about me wasn't true. Those of you who believe there must be something going on you don't know about - please be careful. I'd lay money there isn't.

[Suti]

It just goes to show the true reactions of most peoples responses.

If SS say you are likely to harm your children then 'doubt' is clearly put in peoples minds.

If the individual let's all and sundry know what is going on to save her child because it is not true, then it is "Oh! She isn't telling all."

Because a social worker has gone to colledge/University she must be telling the truth. This is NOT always the case.

I agree that there are good and bad amongst us all. But one bad social worker and it puts all social workers in a different light.

If a psychiatrist who has treated this young lady, has stated she is not at risk of harming any one then he should know. The psychiatrist who said she will harm 'psychologicaly' has never seen this young lady. Obviously, would her own psychiatrist put his reputation on the line, not to mention the baby!

The psychologist who say's she is a risk, is putting nothing on the line, he loses nothing, the baby loses her mother.

This young lady needs support, not persicution. Should she be punished for being abused and raped, then if that 'IS' the case, what a sorry state we all live in.

So, if it is decided to remove thebaby, then take the abuser and the rapist to court, these are the ones that are at risk in society. If you are a victim and you scream for help, how many of you would ignore it!

Each individual case is different, but people should be aware, it does happen, social workers do lie and ask psychiatrists to back them up! How do I know this, because my daughter in law harmed her children 'FACT' she admitted it, the social worker told me she would never get her children back, she had two psychiatrists she could trust that would condem her. I was most upset by this, I complained and said she needed help not punishment, she was ill psychologically.The social worker was taken off the case, new social worker appointed. Hey presto I am now the target. I had a stroke years ago, but 'no' psychiatrist has said somatization/fabricated illness oooh! this means munchousen

Untill it happens to you and youve walked in their shoes you really don't know. I was one of the idiots that said "They never take children with out good reason".

[Picali]

It just goes to show the true reactions of most peoples responses.

If SS say you are likely to harm your children then 'doubt' is clearly put in peoples minds.

If the individual let's all and sundry know what is going on to save her child because it is not true, then it is "Oh! She isn't telling all."

Because a social worker has gone to colledge/University she must be telling the truth. This is NOT always the case.

I agree that there are good and bad amongst us all. But one bad social worker and it puts all social workers in a different light.

If a psychiatrist who has treated this young lady, has stated she is not at risk of harming any one then he should know. The psychiatrist who said she will harm 'psychologicaly' has never seen this young lady. Obviously, would her own psychiatrist put his reputation on the line, not to mention the baby!

The psychologist who say's she is a risk, is putting nothing on the line, he loses nothing, the baby loses her mother.

This young lady needs support, not persicution. Should she be punished for being abused and raped, then if that 'IS' the case, what a sorry state we all live in.

So, if it is decided to remove thebaby, then take the abuser and the rapist to court, these are the ones that are at risk in society. If you are a victim and you scream for help, how many of you would ignore it!

Each individual case is different, but people should be aware, it does happen, social workers do lie and ask psychiatrists to back them up! How do I know this, because my daughter in law harmed her children 'FACT' she admitted it, the social worker told me she would never get her children back, she had two psychiatrists she could trust that would condem her. I was most upset by this, I complained and said she needed help not punishment, she was ill psychologically.The social worker was taken off the case, new social worker appointed. Hey presto I am now the target. I had a stroke years ago, but 'no' psychiatrist has said somatization/fabricated illness oooh! this means munchousen

Untill it happens to you and youve walked in their shoes you really don't know. I was one of the idiots that said "They never take children with out good reason".

Suti, I'm so sorry to hear your story. You are right when you say that one bad sw tarrs everyone else with the same brush. Over the course of the last five years I've met with six different social workers. Four were lovely, one was fairly forgettable and one was horrific. That one sw (who I spent just twenty- five minutes with over the course of a five week period) means I No longer speak to anyone in authority and I am now scared to tell my doctor I'm getting headaches, never mind anything else. I agree with your comments about putting doubt in peoples' minds and making them see things in a different (and in some cases, incorrect) light. Once that child abuse tag has been thrown at you, everything you do is questioned - your child's off school with an upset stomach - is he really ill or are you just making it up? He has a bruise on his leg where he fell off his bike - did he fall or did you do it? People question constantly, and I think a big problem is a real lack of training in child protection for a lot of people involved in it.

This also has massive repercutions for those with mental health problems, as it stops people asking for help when they need it. I know only too well now if I get ill again my son will be taken from me. So if I get ill again, do I go to the doctor, as I ought to, and lay myself open to that happening? Or do I go underground, and hope things turn out okay.

People with mental health problems are being discriminated against by the very people who ought to be helping them, and, worse than that, the government is sitting back and doing nothing at all about it.

Suti, I hope things turn out okay for you - will be thinking of you.

[Suti]

The problem with having a mental health problem is the fact that people instantly think of 'crazy, insane, a threat'. People need to be educated to the 'fact' that there are many psychological dissorders, it does not mean 'THREAT'

If a child has been abused then obviuosly the child is traumatised, every one's heart then goes out to the child, we are horrified at what the child has endured, we are very sympathetic and hope the child can have help, support, love and most of all have a normal life as possible.

SO WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS WHEN THEY ARE GROWN UP AND MOST PEOPLE SAY "THEY MUST NOT BE TELLING US EVERY THING"

Because the threat of a child being removed from an adult is not right, it is not the 'norm' to have a child taken away. So, because the abused child has lost there child hood and is now a grown up, society frowns on them.

How many of you have questioned if you have locked your door on leaving, how many can't remember where they have put their keys, how many are scared of spiders. These are all 'PSYCHOLOGICAL'

Society needs to be educated but more than any thing the 'PSYCHIATRISTS that don't really understand mental illness them selves.

[Picali]

The problem with having a mental health problem is the fact that people instantly think of 'crazy, insane, a threat'. People need to be educated to the 'fact' that there are many psychological dissorders, it does not mean 'THREAT'

If a child has been abused then obviuosly the child is traumatised, every one's heart then goes out to the child, we are horrified at what the child has endured, we are very sympathetic and hope the child can have help, support, love and most of all have a normal life as possible.

SO WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS WHEN THEY ARE GROWN UP AND MOST PEOPLE SAY "THEY MUST NOT BE TELLING US EVERY THING"

Because the threat of a child being removed from an adult is not right, it is not the 'norm' to have a child taken away. So, because the abused child has lost there child hood and is now a grown up, society frowns on them.

How many of you have questioned if you have locked your door on leaving, how many can't remember where they have put their keys, how many are scared of spiders. These are all 'PSYCHOLOGICAL'

Society needs to be educated but more than any thing the 'PSYCHIATRISTS that don't really understand mental illness them selves.

I agree with that. I was 'labelled' because I sort help for my problems and was very open and honest with everyone about what was going on. My family, on the other hand, consistently deny their problems and use drugs and alcohol to mask their symptoms. They're very cut off from the outside world and only spend time with people who agree with everything they say. None of them have ever moved outside their comfort zones or tackled any of the problems they have. Let's fact it, we all have problems. I remember so clearly leaving a psychologist's office one morning and wondering to myself why they were saying I was crazy when this woman was talking complete nonsense and failing to engage with me on every level. She had her own agenda to follow and didn't want to discuss my problems, everything had to be on her terms.

There are major failings in the system and, sadly, I think the amount of work that needs to be done is huge.

[Suti]

Hi Picali,

I am pleased you did get the help you wanted and were able to have a normal life. But, as you say you ask for help and it comes back to haunt you.

Take these for examples.....

It is the same with most proffesions! Take social services, you are ill, you ask for support they say no, other people refer you ie Health visitor, they help you then years later turn it around. We gave support where possible as we feel the children would of been neglected with out our support. There for she was neglecting her children.

Psychiatrists, we offerd help, we progressed to recovery. Years later oooh! You saw a psychiatrist 'DANGER SIGNALS'.

Your past; You grow up with adults that you see fighting, using alcohol, sexually and physically abusing you. You dont want this, you are a child, no where to go. As an adult you leave the family and the past. Years later although you did not seek psychological help your history tells me you have a personality dissorder and a Facticous dissorder. It does not matter that you have studied, worked hard, raised children and they go to university, it is your past that give psychologists the right to say you must need treatment.

So you cannot win what ever you do...

If you dare to stand up to these social workers who are twisting the truth, 'look out' they come back with avengence, you have made them look stupid in front of their colleagues

[Picali]

Hi Picali,

I am pleased you did get the help you wanted and were able to have a normal life. But, as you say you ask for help and it comes back to haunt you.

Take these for examples.....

It is the same with most proffesions! Take social services, you are ill, you ask for support they say no, other people refer you ie Health visitor, they help you then years later turn it around. We gave support where possible as we feel the children would of been neglected with out our support. There for she was neglecting her children.

Psychiatrists, we offerd help, we progressed to recovery. Years later oooh! You saw a psychiatrist 'DANGER SIGNALS'.

Your past; You grow up with adults that you see fighting, using alcohol, sexually and physically abusing you. You dont want this, you are a child, no where to go. As an adult you leave the family and the past. Years later although you did not seek psychological help your history tells me you have a personality dissorder and a Facticous dissorder. It does not matter that you have studied, worked hard, raised children and they go to university, it is your past that give psychologists the right to say you must need treatment.

So you cannot win what ever you do...

If you dare to stand up to these social workers who are twisting the truth, 'look out' they come back with avengence, you have made them look stupid in front of their colleagues

Hi Suti,

Your experiences are the same as mine!! I asked ss for help repeatedly, they said no every time. Mental health team called them and then it becomes a referral due to mental health concerns, which is used against you years down the line.

The abuse I suffered as a kid was used against me, the fact that I've moved to get my son into a better school was used against me, the fact that I don't let my son see my mum (who is an abusive alcoholic and lives with a guy who abuses kids) was used against me, as was the fact that I couldn't get a referral to cmht to prove I was well because I wasn't ill enough to be referred!! Work that one out!!

Nothing happened against me until I chucked a social worker out of my house. The next thing you know a cp conference has been conveened. There are many sw's who should not be doing that job.

[Stezzy]

Picali - my son has autism as well.

This is a really sad story. I should think that the poor girl should at least have been given the chance to prove herself as a mother rather than her child being snatched away at the moment of it's birth. It wouldn't take much for a social worker to check up on the girl at regular intervals, and that would probably cause less pain for the poor baby when it grows up than knowing it was taking away from his mother without it's mother's consent. Unless there is something else going on but who knows?

it's frighteneing as there are so many abused kids out there who should be taken into care but aren't..I had to complain to social services about two kids in my family who were knowingly living with their mother's violent bloke (he'd been in prison) but would the authorities do anything? Would they heck, as apparently it goes against the mother's rights! What about the children's rights to safety?

Sorry going off on a tangent here, but this issue is very raw,

This is the reason I'm too scared to be diangosed with depression, in case my son is removed from me. I already have a physcial illness which puts me at a great need for support from SS. I self harm too, but haven't told anyone apart from a therapist who I know and trust. It's terrible that people can't get the help they need due to fear of losing their kids.

[Raich]

Hmmmm, I find this all very upsetting and I wish I could bring all mothers to Holland!!

When I fell pregnant with my daughter I was put into a special group, gynogologist, pshychiatrist, pshychiatric nurse, they all worked together to support me through my pregnancy. I was was so sick I lost a stone, and was smaller at the end than the beginning, I self harmed, drank, smoked did everything I shouldn't do, but they supported me anyway, saying it was better for the baby to realise my feelngs than keep them inside.

At about 3 months we made a appointment of when I would come in a they would start my labour for me. I was sent to talk to someone about getting a eperdual (sp) and so when I arrived at 39 weeks, still on tablets and self harming I was supported still by the whole group, was given treatments to stop panic attacks and keep me relaxed. I was in labour 36 hours, my hubby was given a bed, next too me and fed.

When my babe, Kia was born she was a tiny 5lb, but healthy, however to reduce my stress she was taken to the nursery so I could slowly get use to being a mother. I was written a whole routine for each day, when I would see her, when I would rest, etc. After 5 days I left the hospital feeling fantastic, with my baby!!

Kia is now 8, and she has a brother, Loki 6. On friday I went to see my pshychiatrist like normal, he told me and hubby how great we are doing, and how great are kids are. We still get help, like I have a cleaner that I don't have to pay for, but it realises my and hubbys stress. But alot of our help has stopped as we now no longer need it, and they can't help us, because we already do everything we need to do.

The one bad thing ? Kia has mental issues now too, however, the best thing, we are the best people to help her deal with it.

My children saved my life, I know if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't be here now.

I know that its not the same for everyone, but just because a mother self harms, is taking tablets and is mentally unstable, it doesn't mean she will be a bad mother!!!

How much abuse goes on with out us knowing about it ?? Just because you know you are mentally ill, doesn't mean you are a danger to your kids!

With Love

Raich, xxx

[icu_baby]

THIS IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PEOPLE WHO HAVE OR HAVE RECOVERED FROM BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER.

If you go to youtube you can see an interview of her. She was raped when she was young and then she was diagniosed with BPD as a teenager - give me a break - she was probably suffering from PTSD. Its hard to label a teen as BPD because their personalities have not formed yet.

In any case, she spent one year in a hospital and is fully recovered. She is very smart and articulate.

People with mental illness suffer discrimination because they are unfairly perceived by the conmunity to be dangerous when in fact research shows that people with a mental illness are not more likely than any other member of the community to be dangerous.

This is further discrimination against people with BPD because social services are suggesting that we are a danger to not only ourselves but to our children - I mean come on what happened to innocent before proven guilty. This case is the epitome of discrimination against people with BPD - that we love attention so much we would go out of our way to harm a child - GIVE ME A F******* break.