Rant...'creative Pathways'.....

[blue_au]

having a bitch rant..please ignore at your leisure..

re http://www.creative-pathway.co.uk/ourservices.html

While the optimist in me wants to say this 'service' sounds wonderful..wants to believe in the concept of elightened self interest...the rest of me just gets plain mad when i read adverts like this one. Its a really great thing..support counselling family support etc...but the only problem is...MOST OF THOSE WHO NEED IT SIMPLY CANT AFFORD IT!

Sure its fine if you have family or friends willing to shell out for you or are able to maintain employment etc....but if like me, you dont it just feels like another uptown carrot dangling exercise...great for those that can..tuff shit and your still on your own if you cant.

My other half felt insulted and violated on reading about this service...what rot...what vultures..making money from the state benefits of the mentally ill...if they truely had any real trauma recovery tools that really worked, had real compassion and a genuine willingnes to be there for and support people, surely they'd be lining up to offer their suport...free of charge...not ambulance chasing insurance salesmen like this.

I know money doesnt grow on trees and people have to make a living..but making a living off the backs of sick people in this way seems wrong....elitist....something 'feels' wrong about it in general.

In my time in the MHS public and private i have come to see just how much of a card shuffling 'industry' it has become....each service reffering to and feeding the next to keep the next set of welfare and psych workers in business..keeping clients on rosters going round and round and round so it can stay alive as an 'industry'.....thats why actual patient/client care and recovery outcomes so often come a poor second if at all......its disgusting..people are sick and dying and need honest and tangible hope and help...not more wishlist personally tailored but-only-if-you-can-afford-it investment schemes..its not even about 'want'..its beyond that...as a society we NEED to put free services back in place or we're going to end up fubar.

Even saying you could pay..for a while..and begin treatment through them..but then got sick..couldnt keep paying....voila poof..there goes your access to care and support...its a very very dangerous thing to be doing to the minds of people in crisis..

Psychiatric pay-per-view..how fucked up is that!

How could you find the essential care and security that positive outcomes require in those kind of flippant dollar based relationships?

IMO this crew is just another tool the for 'affulenza' depression crisis...not much chop for those in genuine need of long term, free, constistant support and care...to me this is kind of like Doctors Without Borders cashing in and charging the starving babies for the food and treatment they give...it sucks:(

...Whatever.......

beggars cant be choosers i guess...

ignore social and spiritual responsibility....ignore duty of care...ignore obligation to the human race, right action, real world.........we have such a socially 'unacceptable' and 'unpretty' disease and should just be grateful anyone is even willing to even try to help right?

...right?

sigh

>end rant<

blue

[InnerPeace]

I agree not everyone is going to be able to afford it but why do you expect it to be given free?

People train for years to gain qualifications that are expense and that they have to pay for, not surprisingly they need to earn a living afterwards because just like us they need to pay for a roof over their heads and food. But for some reason people expect them to give the benefit of training to others for nothing.

Well in an ideal world that would be great but this is not an ideal world and we're lucky to even have a Welfare State, it wasn't long ago that a mother would have to decide whether she really could afford for the Dr to come out and see her sick child, and for families to support each other because there was no other help. It wasn't long ago that people with mental health problems were simply locked up.

[blue_au]

I am aware my opinion is aultristic..idealistic. It is just an opinion.

To answer you directly, I have paid my way my entire recovery...asking nothing from anyone. I personally am not 'expecting' anything. Quite the opposite actualy. I personally gave up on having expectations regarding 'professionals' the hipocratic oath and the mhs industry a long time ago. It was quite a blow to my aultruism at the time..but has served me well ever since.

That it is that way for me though, doesnt mean i dont share a common experience with or care about those who arent as lucky as I am, who cant afford private care, who havent found help...have no familes or jobs et al. It also comes with a keen awareness that if we do forget what we have been given, and fail to give it away..we will loose what we have...a choice point of personal morality.

To address another one of your concerns specifically, in Australia almost of education at university level is government funded via the hecs scheme ie; my taxes help pay for their personal 10 year joyride into the upper eschelon pay brackets. So no, I dont think its entirely inappropriate or unreasonable to be hopeful that that system may produce at least a few service oriented, well skilled and holistically available humans, who do what they do as a vocational life choice as oposed to simply producing more of the same, well educated yet poorly informed self serving capitalists.

If cancer patients could only access up to date and efffective oncology care and support services through private money-or-no-service outlets alone... if certain treatments that are currently widely available in general hospitals now were only offered on a cash for use basis, the world would be utterly outraged...i am compelled to ask why it should be any different for mental health care. I am not even asking for 'more'....I am asking for equity, for the 'same as', and starting to see a necessity for some formal body to begin monitering the growing mercenary and predatory 'private' outlets that would use illness as a tool to their own ends, rather than for benefit and outcomes of MHS clients.

thanks for your response.

blue

[em]

blue your post really angers me. for the past 4 years Josh has put his life into free services and still offers them! There is no one else that I am aware of in the UK that does so much for PD's for free! BPDWORLD is the only registered charity focussing on it, look at the services it offers, some places you have to pay just to use the forums!

it is the persons choice if they can pay for this then why shouldnt they, if not they can use the free services. They have options, choices.... Do you realise how much it costs to keep these free services going? not only monetry but the ammount of time that has to be put in, How hard it is to get funding and volunteers?

If you feel so strongly about things over there why no train and offer free services yourself?

Im going to leave it there, I just wish you could see how much actually goes into keeping this place and all the services up, and I find posts like this insulting to the volunteer team that work so hard, especially Josh.

[ramfan007]

Hi All

Sorry but not been around much recently as I have been hibernating.

I think this service is a good idea, I know how hard it is to get the help you need and whilst paying is not ideal, I am sure there are lots of people who cannot access the free services for whatever reason (usually not through lack of trying).

In an ideal world everyone who needed the services would get it on the NHS but this is not an ideal world, I have found that through persitence you can get the services but it takes time and effort, if you can afford to pay and are willing to then why not. This means that the services offered by the NHS are then there for those who cannot, again this is not ideal as everyone should have access to the NHS regardless of the ability to pay privatley or not, but this is the real world and the NHS is constrained by budgets and staff availability sad but true.

There are people who are so empathetic working in this feild that they DO give up there time for free, for example my T is funded by me privatley. I lost my income recently and my Ts response was, when your not working you dont pay but I will give you the T for free as I have commited to your recovery. Can you imagine a butcher or baker giving you free meat or bread becuase you are unemplpyed or sick.

In response to EMs commnent I have just been accepted onto a course (4 years) which will qualify me to practice as a pyscotherapist, this is going to cost me £18,000 by the time I have finished and qualified, do you really expect me to spend all that time, effort and money to simply give my services for free, yes like most therapists I know I will offer reduced rates based on ability to pay and will be working for free in the volountary sector part of my time, but I still need to earn a living.

If you really need the services and are prepared to ask for them persistently then you can get them on the NHS (I speak from expereince), but I think it is unfair to attack people who are trying to help whilst making a living.

(((((((((Hugs All))))))))))))))))))

Ram

[Joshua]

Hello

Your post wont be deleted as you have explained yourself well but my blood was boiling through reading your topic. I have trained and trained to be able to do my job as well as i can, i have put every bit of money i have into BPDWORLD and gone without myself when BPDWORLD has needed something. It has been like my baby, my child.

Its insulting to think i want to make any fortune for other people's misery (including my own). If people donated to a site & service thats their life line and their was enough funding for such a special charity then there would be no need for me to set up more and more services that are paid to enable me to continue paying out the silly amount of money i have to so BPDWORLD remains ALIVE AND FREE.

I work 24 hours a day 7 days a week to run the services i have set up to keep BPDWORLD going.

Its niave to go on about paying for services. We all pay for everything. the NHS is paid through taxes!!!!!!!! I cant express how much i feel agrieved by posts like this that obviously have no understanding for how hard things are.

I have done so much for you all, and this place. Its helped thousands and will continue to help tens of thousands more and all i receieve for it is the hardest slap in the mouth!!

[Faerielight]

i just want to say that i totally agree that people who have trained up deserve to earn a living for helping others.. it was a good point made that you would'nt expect to walk into a shop and get fr ee goods just because you are ill.

i think it is good that josh is providing a wider range of accessible services and support for bpd.

i would,ve been so grateful for a service like that and so willing to use my dla to pay for it, but luckily i have a great cpn finally, plus i have huge debts from the many years i didnt get dla.

i think the original post is totally unfair.

i just want to add that i spent years training in massage, reiki healing, reflexology, counselling, ear acupuncture, and on many occasions i came accross the assumption that if you want to help others you should do it for no money.

i worked really hard, for reduced rates, free treatments and voluntary work, and was made to feel guilty for charging ( i was not on any benifits at the time.)

i worked myself to the bone and got burn out, got ill with m.e.

its only now in retrospect i can look back and see that it is crazy to expect caring proffessions to be free when all other services one has to pay for.

also it devalues the importance of ones's experience.

i have no doubt that josh running this website costs him money , we should be grateful to have such a lifeline for free.

hugs, ivy x

[sundries]

Joshua I just wanted to thank you for everything you do for us. We are incredibly lucky that people like you put in the time effort dedication and you deserve nothing but thanks for that.

THANKYOU

[blue_au]

Hello

Your post wont be deleted as you have explained yourself well but my blood was boiling through reading your topic. I have trained and trained to be able to do my job as well as i can, i have put every bit of money i have into BPDWORLD and gone without myself when BPDWORLD has needed something. It has been like my baby, my child.

sigh...

If you would take a step back a moment Joshua you would notice i did not speak ill of ANY individual, nor did i insult you or BPD world in any way..nor did i write anything that would possibly be considered to be undermining or disrespectful of the tireless ongoing efforts of those ' in the pit' who DO offer themselves and their services for the greater and individual good.

I was specifically commenting on the 'sudden' rise of 'pay-per-view' services..that i feel DO pose a significant health risk to persons under their care when the money runs out.

I do view these services as too open for manipulation and abuse, and see them as only exaserbating the ongoing crisis for 'those that cant'. At best they are buying into the very same patterns of social behaviour held by wider society of war between the haves and have nots.

Yes, I naievly and aultruistically, do one day wish that all health care will gov funded and funded to its need level..thats not a crime or even an idealistic notion really....as already there's been progress. Formally private mhs services are now being added to the medicare/universal health care strata here...but we didnt get that progress from sitting down accepting what is or worshipping and self flagellating in grattitude to what was on offer 'under financial terms'.....they've come to that decision because of the reality of the need on the ground and yes from opinionated bitches such as myself stomping the foot..writing the annoying uncomfortable letters..pointing out the bleeding obvious to them, and from the many thousands of families and suporters doing the other hidden work in MHS who dont get worshiped for their efforts. We should be able to access and to offer 'free' services...fully funded by responsible gov...why not? We pay the taxes..

If you doubt me about the pay-per-view services.... then go ask these people what they would do to and for person, who has been under their care but can no longer pay...

Imx, and apart from steering them back to an underfunded nhs..they 'are unable to offer continuing care 'in light of'...what happens to the person then when the support just 'disapears'? What if it disapears in the middle of a suicidal crisis?

i know this type of services can be abusive because thats exactly what i was told.. 'sorry, in light of your inability to meet the costs'... i HAVE been screwed six ways from sunday by a similar unscrupulous conglomeration of mercenaries posing as mental health professionals..who sucked me financially dry and spat me out when I couldnt pay anymore...and if you dont like the fact that your chosen industry has those kinds of people in it, well thats not my fault...or problem...its your industry!

i wont apologise for having a rant..i wont apologise for having an opion and being idealistic...i wont apologise for calling a spade a spade *as I see it*...imo if nothing changes nothing changes..and i dont know how it is where you come from but from where i come from, things do need changing...these pirates are everywhere here offering 'all' for 'all you got'...taking advantage of people desperately in need of support. I can as a person in recovery take a more proactive personal responsibility and not go to these pirates..but when i was 'in it'..i couldnt...and they knew it.

I also deliberatly said it was a *rant*..and if you cant take it for what it is..then thats not my problem. I in no way ' slapped you in the mouth'....no way insulted YOU.

I wouldnt be here if I didnt think this place and your efforts were not of any value, not just to me but the whole...for gods sake.

As to the person who said 'what about me'... I AM entering nursing and putting my money where my damn mouth is and i do plan on being 'in the pit' myself doing whatever I can for people just like me.. ...i already know you cant eat money...I already have a sound moral and ethical structure..its just that mine isnt one blinded by self interest and self service at any cost.

I fought hard against this stinking disease to regain my personal dignity and allow myself to have an opinion...I'm not giving that up because its unpopular...it is my expression of the 'liberty', something that this forum is suposed to stand for.

blue

[Joshua]

No NO

Im sorry, you cant say what someone else perceives insulting.

[blue_au]

"If you feel so strongly about things over there why no train and offer free services yourself?"

em,

i am sorry you are angered by my opinion..sad that you have jumped to a conclusion though.

yes..i admit..i do have a crazy patch adams kind of wild aultruistic notion when i think about people helping people just because they can or for the sake of it yes..but i am not exactly ignorant either.

in the conext i wrote of..'free services' implys free to the client..fully government funded to need level... including the pays of those workers involved.

you have also made an assumption of my character.... i already do offer time and support services along my own view of the 'altruism' vein, i just didnt want to trumpet that here..i do spend my off time working with prisoners with bpd and addiction issues on a weekly basis....for free...my time.. my choice.. my reward IS in doing what I know is a right thing to do....i work with guys that owing to a lack of free to client services didnt have the luxury of being diagnosed and treated before they ended their free lives...killed people..went on rampages etc..

i understand the subject is inflamatory..but give me bit of credit for having a brain please...it was a rant...just a rant..getting off some of MY excess 'fuckitall's' and frustrations...so I CAN keep going..'in light of'.

blue

[blue_au]

No NO

Im sorry, you cant say what someone else perceives insulting.

No, you cant. I am sure the same works in reverse.

I can only say in my own defence, that I did not intend to insult, i did not mention you, this place or any individual by name inference or reference. I am guilty only that through omission of your name and a litany pof references to the good guys, I have failed to address all the labour and efforts of the good guys and in doing so offended them by proxy.

So be it...what done is done...you have my sincerest apologies for failing to take the extent and nature of your potential emotional response to my words into consideration when I posted.

i am sorry you took it the way you did and was insulted by it...but I cant be responsible for your emotions and/or pre-perceive what every person might find insulting and accomodate it either.

I am not under any obligation or requirement to accomodate the potential emotions of every single human here when i am having a rant...i cant read minds either...and dont do card tricks.

It was a rant!

I thought this was a safe place to do just that... I was obviously mistaken.

i wont post anymore if that will help..but somehow i dont think so...if your intent on responding emotively rather than to the issue..then I cant get into it anymore...sorry.

THAT skill I learned a long time ago...as continuing on like this will only see me ending up in fubar state...and for what? a rant? no thanks.

thank you for your board...your time....your efforts...i am sorry that at this time I simply cant afford to contribute to your effort.....i'm paying my food budget out on psych services...if i could i would and would try to ease your burden..but i am busy trying to carry my own and walk with others like me who dont have the luxury of choice.....please do keep up the efforts...it is worth it...people do recover.

i dont know what else i can say..apart form goodbye.

blue

[Joshua]

No your right you dont have to take on the emotional effects of others but some understanding of the others position is surely not to much to ask?

[em]

Good on you for volunteering, but even volunteers need an income and that is what creative pathways is about.

"My other half felt insulted and violated on reading about this service...what rot...what vultures..making money from the state benefits of the mentally ill...if they truely had any real trauma recovery tools that really worked, had real compassion and a genuine willingnes to be there for and support people, surely they'd be lining up to offer their suport...free of charge...not ambulance chasing insurance salesmen like this."

I know you said it is your other half's opinion, and i am sorry you have had bad experience with private services, but not all are the same and it is very unfair to tarnish them with the same brush. Have a look at who owns creative pathways, then tell me they have no real compassion and a genuine willingnes to be there for and support people - free. Maybe it will help to see why this post is taken as insulting....

Not everyone has the good fortune of government funding for all of the 'free' services. EVERYTHING costs. It would be great if the government would pay for the services needed, but they dont, at present the average waiting list to see a therapist is 18 months, so what do people do in the mean time? Is it not good to have options? Alot of people get DLA (disability living allowence) from the government, which is meant to help them with their disability, to pay for the extra costs that occur from normal day to day living, is it so wrong to offer extra services that could be paid for by some of this benefit? Free services are always going to have limitations.

[blue_au]

if i cant have a rant..if i cant be honest about how *i* feel on an issue or topic without being slammed..then i dont fit into this servcies criteria for 'help and support'....because thats what i need *as a person living with bpd*..a 'safe' place to be honest in.. to vent in..to be *myself* in without being judged or condemmed for that...this place was purported to be a safe place to do just that..a safe place to come to to be honest when the anger or frustration wasnt safe to keep within..its not safe for me anymore..thats not your fault...not anyones. i just cant sit here pretending to be something im not...watching my words for everyone elses sensitivities...i cant cope with that right now.

i personally dont care if you dont like or dont agree with what i wrote em..good for you that you dont..kudo's..it is GOOD not to have everyone agreeing..just dont keep on this please....i am already off....and want to go with some dignity...

i was never here to meet your expectations for correct and acceptable discourse...i was here to save my own life...if i cant do that here or cant use this service for that end....then i need to go elsewhere where i can.

thank you

[Joshua]

if i cant have a rant..if i cant be honest about how *i* feel on an issue or topic without being slammed..then i dont fit into this servcies criteria for 'help and support'....because thats what i need *as a person living with bpd*..a 'safe' place to be honest in.. to vent in..to be *myself* in without being judged or condemmed for that...this place was purported to be a safe place to do just that..a safe place to come to to be honest when the anger or frustration wasnt safe to keep within..its not safe for me anymore..thats not your fault...not anyones. i just cant sit here pretending to be something im not...watching my words for everyone elses sensitivities...i cant cope with that right now.

i personally dont care if you dont like or dont agree with what i wrote em..good for you that you dont..kudo's..it is GOOD not to have everyone agreeing..just dont keep on this please....i am already off....and want to go with some dignity...

i was never here to meet your expectations for correct and acceptable discourse...i was here to save my own life...if i cant do that here or cant use this service for that end....then i need to go elsewhere where i can.

thank you

Thats a bit dramatic.

[em]

you want to express your feelings, thats great!! just dont anyone dare express theirs back on said topic............. hmmmm

[sundries]

blau,

anyuone responding to you is just utilising thier OWN right to have a rant on here. If thsat stops you feeling safe and offends you to the point you leave then maybe consider the effect your rants have. This is not a criticism, I rant along with the best of them but a natural consequence of that is that people rant back and why should i be given the freeedom to rant if they arent?

[cheesewright]

i was never here to meet your expectations for correct and acceptable discourse...i was here to save my own life...if i cant do that here or cant use this service for that end....then i need to go elsewhere where i can.

Under "Terms of Use":

Your commitment to us:

• You will try to be honest with other community members and yourself.
• You will work with the group to reduce self-harm behaviour
• You will be respectful of other community members and their views at all times
• You will be mindful that all community members need to learn how to understand you and respond best. Also that sometimes they may get it wrong. You must be prepared for this, and talk about it.

Just a friendly reminder about to what everyone agrees when they join.

Personally, I think rants are okay, but you have take responsibility for them. The tendency for people (not just you and not only on this board) to say, "It's a rant, never mind what I say," then launch a personal attack--even one by proxy, as yours was--ignores the fact that you're dropping a bomb and expecting no-one to get blown back by it. That's not fair.

And to address the actual topic, that being Creative Pathways: I have looked at the web page and see nothing offensive about it. Maybe it's because I'm a Yank and expect nothing for free, but from what I've gleaned about the MHS in the UK, any service at all that would help expedite problems navigating that service looks like a good program to me. Unless I've misunderstood its purpose.

Maybe one day Josh can shift its revenue source away from patients to some other place, but until that time that's the model. Looks to me like this is a "value added" program, and therefore should be paid for out of pocket by someone. The real question should not be, "is it free?" The real question should be, "is it affordable?" And living an ocean away, I can't answer that.

[lisa c]

if i cant have a rant..if i cant be honest about how *i* feel on an issue or topic without being slammed..then i dont fit into this servcies criteria for 'help and support'....because thats what i need *as a person living with bpd*..a 'safe' place to be honest in.. to vent in..to be *myself* in without being judged or condemmed for that...this place was purported to be a safe place to do just that..a safe place to come to to be honest when the anger or frustration wasnt safe to keep within..its not safe for me anymore..thats not your fault...not anyones. i just cant sit here pretending to be something im not...watching my words for everyone elses sensitivities...i cant cope with that right now.

i personally dont care if you dont like or dont agree with what i wrote em..good for you that you dont..kudo's..it is GOOD not to have everyone agreeing..just dont keep on this please....i am already off....and want to go with some dignity...

i was never here to meet your expectations for correct and acceptable discourse...i was here to save my own life...if i cant do that here or cant use this service for that end....then i need to go elsewhere where i can.

thank you

It seems to me that everybody is taking this a little personally and I don't think you've said anything particularly out of order. I have no money whatsoever and it does worry me that some of us may have our 'noses pushed out' by people that do and I appreciate your concerns over this. Of course people need to earn a living and I may have got this wrong, but I think you said yourself that you appreciated this. There is nothing at all wrong with being altruistic, we need to have ideals and something to aim towards. You appear to be intelligent, rational, and have a strong social conscience, there are so many people out there without any of these qualities, don't ever feel ashamed of them. Please don't stop using this forum just because people have disagreed with you and thanks for sticking up for the underdog.

[Vorpalblade]

Gawd!! what a fecking palava!

Am sure this happens everytime Josh comes up with a new venture.

Why do those who don't agree just live and let live instead of being all nasty,

i mean Blue you're in Australia i believe so it doesn't really concern you as

i don't see you paying travel expenses for someone to come see you for 2 hours

etc, so why jump on Josh and burst his bubble? BPDWorld are offering a fair

service and as mentioned by someone, a lot of us get DLA so we can afford it

if we so wish, others work, some do both, and those that cant afford it still have

a helpline they can call or free support workers etc. The word "ungrateful"

springs to mind...

And for the record, I aint a suck up..me and Josh are always falling out, but as

with anyone if i see them being treat unfairly i will jump up and defend them.

Bladey

[zarah]

Sounds a good idea...

and like people keep saying it - those with DLA can no doubt afford it - after all in theory the DLA is supposed to pay for the extra help you need because of your illness (rather than go on fags, booze , takeaways whatever..... )

This is Josh doing what he is best at (and has appropriate experience with)....

hope it succeeds....

Z

[Madsheep]

good point zarah phone support equals 10 packets of cigarattes

[lisa c]

good point zarah phone support equals 10 packets of cigarattes

I know we are all making a bit of a fuss about this, but is there nobody out here that feels like 'Au whatever'? (sorry) is being ganged up on!! I can see both sides of this and I completely understand what everybody is getting at (on both sides) but, for God's sake is there no room for ambivilence out here, I know that is a really dirty word in the world of the BPD but please try to see that this is a stepping stone towards getting better!! Please, I really do beg of you, stop all this hatred, it's horrible!! It's pointless. Let this fucking person say what is on their mind, if your identity is strong enough, if you truly believe the words you say , then surely you must have enough empathy to understand that this person isn't fortunate enough to be where you are right now. Au 'whatever' and I absolultely do not mean to be offensive in not remembering your name properly, I'm a little tipsy and it seems like too much effort to go back and find out your name, cause if I do I'll forget my point!! I do not mean to appear to patronising in any way, shape, or form, I know that you are more than intelligent enough to make your point, but I feel that if an idiot like me can understand what you're getting at then surely all the other far more intelligent people out there must. I'm sorry to everybody else, I know you all seem really wound up, but maybe I am being naive but I think 'Au' (I should at least be able to remember his/her name) has a valid point. I may be misinterpreting things but I'm not sure that she/he is saying that she resents the fact that Joshua needs to make money, he does, that is undeniable, and I understand that this is his baby and I think that it is so sweet that he cares so much, but maybe you are all taking it to heart a little too much. Maybe it's an age thing, maybe we both grew up under the 'Thatcher cloud' you know, the one that say's 'if you don't have money you're a piece of shit and are worth nothing!' Maybe I am commiting the crime of being altruistic, but I really don't think that he/she meant any harm. We all walk different paths and therefore none of us can judge, please bear that in mind because one day, and I'm sure considering the state of our shared 'disease' we would love to believe that other people will not judge us when we dare to stick our necks out and state our opinions. I really don't want to fall out with anybody, I hate confrontation, but I just needed to show a little solidarity.

[zarah]

and your point, Lisa, was?