Labelling.

[bibiddi]

Just a little bug bear of mine.

I am not BPD.

I am not a BPD.

I have a BPD.

I have a Borderline Personality Disorder.

Would someone say, "my friend is a cancer"?

If they were diagnosed with cancer?

Its a diagnosis, its not a person.

I am more than a diagnosis.

My life is more than that.

If I'm sad or angry, do not invalidate it by always dismissing it as "BPD".

Healthy people get angry and sad. Its not always my illness.

Sometimes I have the right to be angry.

[adicts87]

So true, I wish more people could see it that way!

[InnerPeace]

Very true.

I don't have a problem with people putting my moods down to BPD...they don't believe it exists!

[CharcoalKiss]

Very true.

I don't have a problem with people putting my moods down to BPD...they don't believe it exists!

Neither do i. In fact i've found that people seem to ignore the presence of BPD (or bipolar) Although i've told them about it i think that my inability to express exactly what i mean or feel just leaves people to draw their own conclusions, usually i think they just decide i'm generally wierd and run with it. lol. Either that or they're ignoring it because they think thats what i want. I'm not sure which.

[icu_baby]

I don't agree that BPD is a personality disorder. I have it and I would actually classify it more as a mood disorder because we suffer just as much as people who are suffering from depression or bi-polar. Whereas a bi-polar person suffers ups and downs, in which the downs last a long time, we people with borderline suffer intense emotional pain that lasts a few hours or days at most. This can be quite exhausting and alike bi-polar there is no effective medication for us. This is why in my view BPD should be seen as a spectrum of bi-polar. Moreover, people don't treat us as sympathetically as other mental illness despite the fact that we don't always have control of our emotions. We are also quite prone to suffer comorbid axis one disorders such as depression.

[CharcoalKiss]

I don't agree that BPD is a personality disorder. I have it and I would actually classify it more as a mood disorder because we suffer just as much as people who are suffering from depression or bi-polar. Whereas a bi-polar person suffers ups and downs, in which the downs last a long time, we people with borderline suffer intense emotional pain that lasts a few hours or days at most. This can be quite exhausting and alike bi-polar there is no effective medication for us. This is why in my view BPD should be seen as a spectrum of bi-polar. Moreover, people don't treat us as sympathetically as other mental illness despite the fact that we don't always have control of our emotions. We are also quite prone to suffer comorbid axis one disorders such as depression.

A very compelling arguement. I am inclined to agree with you on all points made. Although, and i apologise for this, every text book and article i've read refers to BDP as a personality disorder, as does my psychology professor. So while i agree with you, in writing an essay (which unfortunately i do actually have to do) on personality disorders, BPD is included in my research and in the essay. Although i think i will make the point that it should be a mood disorder.... somewhere.

Thanks not only for the insight, but for the interesting angle for my essay too.

[Ulrica]

So true. I wish more people would see it that way.

icu_baby Just curious, you say there are no effective medications for BP, I've met a few BP people over the years who seem to be stable enough on them. I would just say that there are so many other things that are included in a PD and their causes are different as I've gathered, BP is mostly chemical in nature and BPD is often a result of some form of trauma that a person went through at a young age. I think the reason that BPD is axis II is that it is so much more than often an inability to control mood swings, it's a behavior pattern that includes more and it is a part of your personality. You can't fix it with meds but rather learn how to manage emotions and situations. That is what I think doesn't make it a mood disorder since in a sense it can be managed through therapy. But I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist in any way and I do think you make a very good point. Made me think about it and reflect over it...

Anhyho, sorry for the diversion off topic

But you do raise a good point bibiddi, we have this illness we are not it and it is not us.

[CharcoalKiss]

So true. I wish more people would see it that way.

icu_baby Just curious, you say there are no effective medications for BP, I've met a few BP people over the years who seem to be stable enough on them. I would just say that there are so many other things that are included in a PD and their causes are different as I've gathered, BP is mostly chemical in nature and BPD is often a result of some form of trauma that a person went through at a young age. I think the reason that BPD is axis II is that it is so much more than often an inability to control mood swings, it's a behavior pattern that includes more and it is a part of your personality. You can't fix it with meds but rather learn how to manage emotions and situations. That is what I think doesn't make it a mood disorder since in a sense it can be managed through therapy. But I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist in any way and I do think you make a very good point. Made me think about it and reflect over it...

Anhyho, sorry for the diversion off topic

But you do raise a good point bibiddi, we have this illness we are not it and it is not us.

Research has shown that antidepressant, antianxiety and antipsychotic drugs help in calming the emotional and agressive storms of BPD. Floxetine seems to work best apparently. (It also works for ASPD aggression)

[Vorpalblade]

bipolar and BPD are nothing alike, one is a behavioural problem the other is a chemical imbalance. i dont see how the 2 can be grouped under the same spectrum at all.

[CharcoalKiss]

bipolar and BPD are nothing alike, one is a behavioural problem the other is a chemical imbalance. i dont see how the 2 can be grouped under the same spectrum at all.

Because they have overlapping symptoms to an extent. for instance the mood instability.

[Vorpalblade]

yes the moods swings overlap but they are not alike, they cant be medicated in teh same way as the root is different.

[Ulrica]

Research has shown that antidepressant, antianxiety and antipsychotic drugs help in calming the emotional and agressive storms of BPD. Floxetine seems to work best apparently. (It also works for ASPD aggression)

I must say I agree with Nicky.

I do agree that they do help some people in calming symptoms and can be a useful aid in recovery, though they cannot cure BPD per se. For me though, they didn't help (and I tried over 25 different meds, including Fluoxetine, for about three years) which is why I think that they are different.

[CharcoalKiss]

Research has shown that antidepressant, antianxiety and antipsychotic drugs help in calming the emotional and agressive storms of BPD. Floxetine seems to work best apparently. (It also works for ASPD aggression)

I must say I agree with Nicky.

I do agree that they do help some people in calming symptoms and can be a useful aid in recovery, though they cannot cure BPD per se. For me though, they didn't help (and I tried over 25 different meds, including Fluoxetine, for about three years) which is why I think that they are different.

Well, i'll concede to your experience on that one as i've never taken the medications i've been prescribed for anything for any long enough period to assess whether or not they work.

I agree that the medications i listed can't cure BPD and can only help in relieving it somewhat in some cases, but the co-morbidity rate for BP and BPD is high, and the two are often mis-diagnosed as each other.... so at least at a diagnostic level they are similar. I've been diagnosed with both and i find that the BP tends to add to the BPD symptoms rather then having any additional symptoms, for instance, when i have low moods they last longer then the DSM-IV thinks they should under BPD.

[Ulrica]

Oh I do agree that they are often mis-diagnosed. Was myself diagnosed BP at first then BPD three years later. It is the And this was after having spent three years on various anti-d's, anti-p's and mood stabilizers and tranquilizers, with them not working at all I thought my diagnoses must be wrong And yes the co-morbidity for the two is high, and it is often the case that if you have a PD you also have a mood-disorder, though not always. The DSM I find is a guide and isn't a strict rule book since everyone is different, there are as many different variants on BPD as people who have it (as there are as many different variants of people that don't have it and so on). I was diagnosed with the DSM as having BPD, no mood or anxiety disorders (nope, not even depression) and then also re-diagnosed using the ICD system and now it says Emotionally Unstable PD Impulsive Type on my records, but that's mainly because Sweden don't tend to use the DSM but the ICD instead.

So I say that BPD is different for everyone who has it, co-morbidity or not.

[CharcoalKiss]

So I say that BPD is different for everyone who has it, co-morbidity or not.

i completely agree.

[wordsmithy]

i make a note to "avoid labelling like the plague"

then i underline it

write in capital letters

make it bold

highlight it

and say aaaaaaaargh!

treat the problems... not the label

[icu_baby]

quote]

A very compelling arguement. I am inclined to agree with you on all points made. Although, and i apologise for this, every text book and article i've read refers to BDP as a personality disorder, as does my psychology professor. So while i agree with you, in writing an essay (which unfortunately i do actually have to do) on personality disorders, BPD is included in my research and in the essay. Although i think i will make the point that it should be a mood disorder.... somewhere.

Thanks not only for the insight, but for the interesting angle for my essay too.

[CharcoalKiss]

1 step ahead of you. lol. My lecturer sees BPD as BPD in his words. He considers it to be a PD reminiscent of mood disorders (namely bipolar) but certainly not a mood disorder. the things felt and thought by people with BPD are ingrained in who they are and hence cannot be removed, only managed.

My lecturer considers me to be a 'high functioning' BPD sufferer (although i'm not altogether sure what that means?)

He brought up the topic of the stigma... and asked me if i had any experience in it... i do, although my experience has been that people are more willing to accept that i have bipolar (which i do) then having BPD because bipolar is something they know more about and something that they see as a mental illness where BPD is not (I'm inclined to agree... i don't see BPD as a mental illnes... or even really as a mental disorder or a mood disorder... i guess for me its kinda what it says it is... An emotionally unstable personality.). Also i have encountered people who see PDs as a 'get out' for people who cannot be diagnosed as mentally ill, but are determined to be mentally dysfunctional in some way. (This has caused me much distress and many arguments!!!)

My lecturer believes that PDs are more serious then the government and society is willing to accept... though not in the harmful to others kinda way... but in the sense that people don't seem wiling or able to understand or accept the extent of the turmoil encountered with PDs such as BPD and the lack of control of the sufferer. He thinks that instead of 'passing off' PDs as 'just another mental disorder' is detrimental.

He also brought up the suicide risk.... saying that those with BPD are taken less seriously, like you said. He agrees that the care offered is often not enough.... and also made the point that one aspect of the treatment of mood disorders is to re-align the chemical imbalance which in most cases helps to stabalise the persons emotions and thereby reduce the likelihood that that they will even want to commit suicide... while BPD has no such 'cure'.

I think the attention seeking element comes from the recurrence of suicidal thoughts and the times at which they happen. This is just my opinion though. It occurs to me that although people with Bipolar experiece similar shifts in mood to BPD, they are not as frequently changing and are longer lasting... with BPD i also feel an overwhelming sense of instability from the fact that my mood shifts so quickly and so 'violently'... so i have been said to be attention seeking though harming myself etc because it became frequent as opposed to the 'cry for help' which is more likely to be a 'one off'... also, i am not, or have ever been ashamed of my scars... and so i do not feel the need to hide them... so it has been said that i am deliberately showing them off to get attention.

I'm having trouble keeping coherant thoughts so i apologise if any of this jumps or doesn't string together properly.

[icu_baby]

So true. I wish more people would see it that way.

icu_baby Just curious, you say there are no effective medications for BP, I've met a few BP people over the years who seem to be stable enough on them. I would just say that there are so many other things that are included in a PD and their causes are different as I've gathered, BP is mostly chemical in nature and BPD is often a result of some form of trauma that a person went through at a young age. I think the reason that BPD is axis II is that it is so much more than often an inability to control mood swings, it's a behavior pattern that includes more and it is a part of your personality. You can't fix it with meds but rather learn how to manage emotions and situations. That is what I think doesn't make it a mood disorder since in a sense it can be managed through therapy. But I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist in any way and I do think you make a very good point. Made me think about it and reflect over it...

Anhyho, sorry for the diversion off topic

But you do raise a good point bibiddi, we have this illness we are not it and it is not us.

Hi Ulica, you raise very good points too and I think that is the view that most psychiatrists woud agree with. With regards to medications, some psychiatrists say that medications do not help while others say they are effective in controlling the rages or comorbid depression. I am not really sure why anti-psychotics or antidepressants are used if BPD is a personality and is not chemical in nature...wouldn't valium suffice in that case.

I agree that Bipolar is chemical in nature - people can't control their high and low moods - but these moods too arguably create behaviour patterns - depressive and manic behaviour which can both be classified as "destructive behaviours" (BPD of course is also associated with destructive behaviours so there is a parrallel). Bipolar disorder can also develop at any age, I have not read about a bipolar child anywhere.

Second of all not everyone with BPD have suffered a trauma and there are many people who do suffer traumas that don't have BPD. There are studies actually happening in Europe that show images of a persons brain with BPD and those who are "normal" (just like if you compare a scitzophrenic brain with a normal person). There is something missing that normal people don't have - when I can be bothered I will look it up for you but anway new evidence is emerging that it is organic.

According to a French site "borderlines are born with an innate biological tendency to react more intensely to lower levels of stress than others and take longer to recover. They pick higher emotionally with less provocaton and take longer to come down". This sounds like a mood disorder in which BPD really don't have any control off anymore than a bipolar person. I am sure that there is also a nature/nurturance argument in there but if we look at depression too its similar - depression can be chemical or reactive depression (our environment makes us depressed) or people who have an innate tendency to become more depressed then others and their circumstances then cause them to become depressed. However, like depresion, BPD can benefit from therapy to change "negative thinking" although the technique for depression and therapy may differ.

I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist either, by the way. My opinion comes from a few academic journals I have read, my own reasoning and my experience in having BPD. I just think that if the debate is more open there will be less stigma about this horrible disorder if people can atleast view it in a different light.

ps sorry if my email is not making sense, I have been sun baking all day and I am writing this email at 12.29am so I am very tired!

[CharcoalKiss]

So true. I wish more people would see it that way.

icu_baby Just curious, you say there are no effective medications for BP, I've met a few BP people over the years who seem to be stable enough on them. I would just say that there are so many other things that are included in a PD and their causes are different as I've gathered, BP is mostly chemical in nature and BPD is often a result of some form of trauma that a person went through at a young age. I think the reason that BPD is axis II is that it is so much more than often an inability to control mood swings, it's a behavior pattern that includes more and it is a part of your personality. You can't fix it with meds but rather learn how to manage emotions and situations. That is what I think doesn't make it a mood disorder since in a sense it can be managed through therapy. But I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist in any way and I do think you make a very good point. Made me think about it and reflect over it...

Anhyho, sorry for the diversion off topic

But you do raise a good point bibiddi, we have this illness we are not it and it is not us.

Hi Ulica, you raise very good points too and I think that is the view that most psychiatrists woud agree with. With regards to medications, some psychiatrists say that medications do not help while others say they are effective in controlling the rages or comorbid depression. I am not really sure why anti-psychotics or antidepressants are used if BPD is a personality and is not chemical in nature...wouldn't valium suffice in that case.

Second of all not everyone with BPD have suffered a trauma and there are many people who do suffer traumas that don't have BPD. There are studies actually happening in Europe that show images of a persons brain with BPD and those who are "normal" (just like if you compare a scitzophrenic brain with a normal person). There is something missing that normal people don't have - when I can be bothered I will look it up for you but anway new evidence is emerging that it is organic.

According to a French site "borderlines are born with an innate biological tendency to react more intensely to lower levels of stress than others and take longer to recover. They pick higher emotionally with less provocaton and take longer to come down". This sounds like a mood disorder in which BPD really don't have any control off anymore than a bipolar person. I am sure that there is also a nature/nurturance argument in there but if we look at depression too its similar - depression can be chemical or reactive depression (our environment makes us depressed) or people who have an innate tendency to become more depressed then others and their circumstances then cause them to become depressed. However, like depresion, BPD can benefit from therapy to change "negative thinking" although the technique for depression and therapy may differ.

!

On the subject of biological predetermination... as far as i have read there is foundation for mood disorders to be biologically predisposed but i'm not sure if the same can be said of personality. One psychological definition of personality is that it is 'the culmination of predisposed determinants and life experiences' and a PD is 'a dysfunction in cognitive functioning associated with personality which can be caused through experiencing trauma or as a result of biological predetermination.' I'm not sure what my opinion is... i think i'd probably sit on the fence and say that it can be either or both.... My mum suffers from severe major depression, and my dad from bouts of bipolar depression following extreme stress, there is a long line of mood disorders in my family - which you could say contributed to my having bipolar... but there is no indication of PDs in my lineage... and yet i have both bipolar and BPD. One thing that does ring true in my mind, and agrees with the original post to start this thread, is that 'one cannot treat one's personality. a person is what a person is and a person suffering from or with a disordered personality is not the disorder, they are the person and the disorder is the attachment not the whole.' That was once said by a friend of mine in admirable defence of PDs during a 'discussion' in a psychology seminar not long ago in which i got fairly upset at what some ofthe other students were saying.

[rebeccaborderline]

This is my take on my BPD, as I experience it, and from what Ive read, been told and generally picked up.

BPD is linked to childhood abuse/trauma in 70% of cases; the other 30% of BPDers do not report any abuse occuring; therefore its assumed that there may be multiple causes of BPD, not just abuse or ©PTSD.

Some BPD cases have been shown to have different brain formations to "normal" people under scanning. This appears to be shrinkage of the amygdala and hippocamus, which deal with emotional regulation and emotional memory. This is thought to be linked to trauma/lack of adequate nurture, and will cause behavioural problems, It is believed that through talking therapies, new thought pathways can be opened up to kind of bypass the affected area, resulting in near normal functioning after some time.

I can't think of BPD as a mood disorder; I was dx'ed BP first and given different mood stabilisers, with no effect at all. I only started to become more stable on anti-psychotics; at the time I also has severe depression and so took anti-ds too. As my emotional regulation was stabilised the depression became less; I believe I was profoundly depressed because I felt so emotionally out of control, chaotic; so when that was brought under control my depression went.

I believe my meds had a major part to play in my current stability. I was way too out of control to be able to benefit from talking therapies until the meds had become effective; therefore I do believe that there is some kind of phsyiological basis as well to the illness. And yes, therefore I do think it is an illness, with physiological and environmental causes; I do not believe I have some kind of personality "defect"; I do not believe its something inherently wrong with me, a personal thing; I think this is a damaging way to view it, and incorrect.

rebeccaborderline

[wednesday]

It is so difficult to come to any conclusion which can be proven here. As the writer above says, the differences in brain structure could be due to emotional distress rather than the cause of it.

Currently, my psychiatrists believes that bpd is a form of bd, whereas I think the depression and mood swings have their root in my internal distress because my basic belief is that I am flawed. As my pdoc said another time, ' the basis of bpd is the belief that you are different, and not in a good way'

So many negative things flow from this belief that constant stress and depression are liable to happen.

However, where I am less certain of the psychological argument is when things are really bad. There seems to be a switch in me which is tripped when I have had constant stress/depression, moods seem to be extreme and cycle madly, everything goes out of control. I don't know if this happens for more'normal' people without these basis beliefs.

My psychologist is working with me to try to shift this most basic hatred os self. It is extremely difficult and it is an attempt to alter personality. I have no idea whether it is achievable.

[rebeccaborderline]

whereas I think the depression and mood swings have their root in my internal distress because my basic belief is that I am flawed.

Exactly; but I think that this conviction that I am flawed/wrong/bad is a consequence of the BPD; either because my brain has been hardwired to think this way, or from repeated messages that I am bad in childhood; or both. I can stand outside myself and say logically that I am not bad; I dont harm people, I avoid conflict, I dont do bad things. The inescapable feeling that I am bad is false, a manifestation of the illness, not the truth (however much it feels like it). I would not say of a BPD friend on here that they are bad, just because they believe that themselves; so why would I apply different logic to myself?

My psychologist is working with me to try to shift this most basic hatred os self. It is extremely difficult and it is an attempt to alter personality. I have no idea whether it is achievable.

Yes, absolutely I believe that it is achievable, I feel like Im nearly there. I still have moments but they are few and far apart, of less intensity and of lesser duration. I have been working on this with my psychologist for 5 years however, but there is hope

rebeccaborderline

[icu_baby]

It is so difficult to come to any conclusion which can be proven here. As the writer above says, the differences in brain structure could be due to emotional distress rather than the cause of it.

Currently, my psychiatrists believes that bpd is a form of bd, whereas I think the depression and mood swings have their root in my internal distress because my basic belief is that I am flawed. As my pdoc said another time, ' the basis of bpd is the belief that you are different, and not in a good way'

So many negative things flow from this belief that constant stress and depression are liable to happen.

However, where I am less certain of the psychological argument is when things are really bad. There seems to be a switch in me which is tripped when I have had constant stress/depression, moods seem to be extreme and cycle madly, everything goes out of control. I don't know if this happens for more'normal' people without these basis beliefs.

My psychologist is working with me to try to shift this most basic hatred os self. It is extremely difficult and it is an attempt to alter personality. I have no idea whether it is achievable.

Hi Wednesay...love your name btw,

Its funny your psychiatrist thinks it's a form of bipolar disorder. Even the experts can't agree. Your pdoc says that "the basis of bpd is the belief that you are different, and not in a good way". But people who have depression also suffer from negative beliefs that they are guilty or worthless.

I have rapid shifts in mood too and I can go from extremely depressed to extremely happy and then extremely suicidal again. I don't think somehow that is related to personality...I think it is something more and experts are only now beggining to understand this illness. Please have hope, I think you have an excellent psychologist.

[icu_baby]

This is my take on my BPD, as I experience it, and from what Ive read, been told and generally picked up.

BPD is linked to childhood abuse/trauma in 70% of cases; the other 30% of BPDers do not report any abuse occuring; therefore its assumed that there may be multiple causes of BPD, not just abuse or ©PTSD.

Some BPD cases have been shown to have different brain formations to "normal" people under scanning. This appears to be shrinkage of the amygdala and hippocamus, which deal with emotional regulation and emotional memory. This is thought to be linked to trauma/lack of adequate nurture, and will cause behavioural problems, It is believed that through talking therapies, new thought pathways can be opened up to kind of bypass the affected area, resulting in near normal functioning after some time.

I can't think of BPD as a mood disorder; I was dx'ed BP first and given different mood stabilisers, with no effect at all. I only started to become more stable on anti-psychotics; at the time I also has severe depression and so took anti-ds too. As my emotional regulation was stabilised the depression became less; I believe I was profoundly depressed because I felt so emotionally out of control, chaotic; so when that was brought under control my depression went.

I believe my meds had a major part to play in my current stability. I was way too out of control to be able to benefit from talking therapies until the meds had become effective; therefore I do believe that there is some kind of phsyiological basis as well to the illness. And yes, therefore I do think it is an illness, with physiological and environmental causes; I do not believe I have some kind of personality "defect"; I do not believe its something inherently wrong with me, a personal thing; I think this is a damaging way to view it, and incorrect.

rebeccaborderline

I am quite confused actually. I still can't work out the difference between emotional dysregulation and the low mood / moodiness suffered by someone with depression.

I found this on a website which explains how a persons brain with BPD may function:

"Most people with borderline personality disorder have a biological defect in the way they regulate mood and emotion. The amygdala, a device in the brain, helps us to regulate our negative emotions. People with borderline personality disorder have amygdalas that do not function properly. In these cases it is thought that a front portion of the brain may be dampening the effect of the amygdala, causing severe mood swings and abnormal behavior".

So it seems that there is a biological component as to what makes us unable to regulate our emotions like "normal" people as well as a psychological component (how we react to other people, trauma suffered during childhood). How is this any different to depression in that there are different types of depression (eg atypical depression, depression with/without melancholia) and depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance (low serotonin - just like BPD is caused by amygdalas that do not function properly) or depression can be reactive depression (people become depressed due to external stressors in their life - compare BPD where victims are stressed by what happened in their childhood or react to other people).

This is just a thought....I could be totally wrong. In any case, if it is caused by a biological defect, then its not really our personality that is defected, only our ability to control our emotions...even if it was our personality, we were born with it and we can't help the way we are! We should be congradulated for our bravery in seeking help to "change" our personality which is quite difficult because personality is enduring.