Benefit Manipulation

[sundries]

Im toired of the focus always being on 'benefits cheats'. Read an online discussion about it and was going to post following reply but it wouldnt let me so i am going to post it here cos im pissed off.

I feel sad reading this.

I notice these sort of debates are always headed up along the lines of 'what to do about benefit cheats'; we rarely seem to debate ' how can we support the genuine disabled claimants in our country'.

Perhaps it is easier to indulge in a bitching session then to consider the people who do struggle day in day out with disabilities. Ok I know the point of this thread was reporting benefits cheats, but whenever benefits are discussed that is always the general gist. Id like one day to see a debate about how we could recognise and even perhaps honour people with disabilities who might actually be overcoming tremendous difficulties just to stay alive and are a testimony to human courage.

ok I know there are throw away comments here and there that people have no problems with the 'genuine' claimants, but there is so little talk in the media online or anywhere else of genuine claimants or thier needs that it does end up coming across like all people on disability are scroungers and that it is shameful to be disabled. (because hey no one is REALLY disabled are they, they are just cheating)

I mean of course there is always euthanasia and suicide. That would save the tax payer a lot but I note none of the people ive heard bitching about benefits claimants are lobbying to make these methods of 'deburdening' the economy more easily accessible.

Do any of you ever stop to consider how it makes genuine claimants feel when claiming 'benefits' is made synonymous with lying cheating and stealing. Its not the small minority who do actually cheat who magnify this stereotype out of all proportion. It is the people who prefer to spend their time bitching about a few cheats instead of promoting an understanding for severely disabled people and helping them fulfil thier potential.

And what gets to me is the number of you who claim to know of people who are cheating because hey they claim mobility or something but youve seen them walking around. You are not a doctor. You do not know what effect different conditions have. You can have a mobility problem without being permanently bedridden. For all you know that man you saw mending a friends fence and climbing a ladder used to be a builder but is now disabled. He's agreed to do it out of pride. the next week he is in agony and has to be hospitalised for a month, because he was too proud to admit his body couldn't cope with that kind of exertion - during which time he is dealing with one of your ignorant benefit fraud reports.

[Nightvision]

Right on dolly I feel exactly the same way. I have nothing much to add here because you have pretty much said it all. It's bad enough the discrimination us mentally ill have to deal with on a regular basis from employers and others.

[lucyloo]

I Keep backing out of putting in a claim for DLA, because I don't want to admit I am "disabled" and also because I feel like a fraud, as I can walk, go out of the house and function in a general manner, sometimes, but other times, I don't cook or eat, wash, clean the house, see the doctor, answer the door or the phone, open letters, pay bills etc. I am entitled to benefits, but feel awful putting in a claim.

About 10 years back, I discovered my neighbour had a disabled badge in his car, I laughed and couldn't understand why, as he looked fine to me. Then I discovered he had lost a leg in a motor bike accident years before and couldn't walk distances. Did I feel bad for judging him!

Lucy

[pain-dance]

Im toired of the focus always being on 'benefits cheats'. Read an online discussion about it and was going to post following reply but it wouldnt let me so i am going to post it here cos im pissed off.

I feel sad reading this.

I notice these sort of debates are always headed up along the lines of 'what to do about benefit cheats'; we rarely seem to debate ' how can we support the genuine disabled claimants in our country'.

Perhaps it is easier to indulge in a bitching session then to consider the people who do struggle day in day out with disabilities. Ok I know the point of this thread was reporting benefits cheats, but whenever benefits are discussed that is always the general gist. Id like one day to see a debate about how we could recognise and even perhaps honour people with disabilities who might actually be overcoming tremendous difficulties just to stay alive and are a testimony to human courage.

ok I know there are throw away comments here and there that people have no problems with the 'genuine' claimants, but there is so little talk in the media online or anywhere else of genuine claimants or thier needs that it does end up coming across like all people on disability are scroungers and that it is shameful to be disabled. (because hey no one is REALLY disabled are they, they are just cheating)

I mean of course there is always euthanasia and suicide. That would save the tax payer a lot but I note none of the people ive heard bitching about benefits claimants are lobbying to make these methods of 'deburdening' the economy more easily accessible.

Do any of you ever stop to consider how it makes genuine claimants feel when claiming 'benefits' is made synonymous with lying cheating and stealing. Its not the small minority who do actually cheat who magnify this stereotype out of all proportion. It is the people who prefer to spend their time bitching about a few cheats instead of promoting an understanding for severely disabled people and helping them fulfil thier potential.

And what gets to me is the number of you who claim to know of people who are cheating because hey they claim mobility or something but youve seen them walking around. You are not a doctor. You do not know what effect different conditions have. You can have a mobility problem without being permanently bedridden. For all you know that man you saw mending a friends fence and climbing a ladder used to be a builder but is now disabled. He's agreed to do it out of pride. the next week he is in agony and has to be hospitalised for a month, because he was too proud to admit his body couldn't cope with that kind of exertion - during which time he is dealing with one of your ignorant benefit fraud reports.

I think you have to differentiate between people who can work, but won't and people who genuinely can't work: sometimes, a mental disability can be more problematic than a physical one; a broken leg doesn't cause behavioural problems or unpredictable moods.

I think the former group should have just enough money to live on, but be compelled to take the first just job that comes along, whereas people who can't work should be given a generous amount of money to live on, but rehabilitation should be geared towards going back to paid (or at least voluntary) work: with mental illness, there will be a minority of people who may never work again.

[ramfan007]

I was in the shop yesterday and i saw a newspaper article about this. It was saying that the number of people claiming incapacity benefit who could not work because of stress related illness had rocketed from 5,800 to 58,000 since labour came to power. It basically said that anyone who claimed they couldn't work because of stress where scroungers and that as a country we had created this benefit culture. It made me so angry, I have claimed benefits from time to time, but when I can work I do. It didn't say anything about how people who have these problems are discriminated against and how the mere mention of stress or other mental health illnesses send employers running for cover, or how badly employees are treated.

Just because you cant see a disability doesn't mean it is not there. That said I do know there are people who take advantage of the benefit system (look at that referee who was claiming the mobility component of DLA but was running up and down a football field week in week out) but this is a small minority and a lot of them get caught so if your a genuine claimant ignore the sad people who have got nothing better to do than to poke their finger at people who are worse of than them because at the end of the day, they don't have a clue what it is like to suffer in a private hell every day and chances are that given 1 in 3 people suffer from a mental health problem at some point in their lives that many of these finger pointers will one dat hopefully find out what it is like.

Cheers

Ram

[yorkiegal73]

I recieve the lower mobility component of DLA because they think I am a danger to other people when I'm out and about. Sometimes I have thoughts of walking in front of cars and other times I forget to stop, look and listen. Yet I get horrible looks from bus drivers when I show my free bus pass.

Lucyloo, reading your description of how you live made me think you were talking about me. Please apply for DLA. It makes such a difference to how I cope day to day. I can afford a new pair of jeans, a cd, a coffee with friends etc. Disabled is just a term. I was watching Big Brother the other night and there is a contestant who is albino and has blurred vision as a result. He said he hates it when application forms ask 'Do you have a disability' because he has to say yes. But if the form sais 'Do you consider yourself disabled' he can say no. Being registered disabled for dla purposes does not mean that you have to walk around with a sign proclaiming the fact. It doesn't mean that you have to consider yourself disabled either. You're just doing what you have to do to make life more manageable for yourself. Nothing wrong with that.

[sundries]

Thats the other thing

often it is ONLY BECAUSE OF the support you get for your disability that you can do all the things which cause people to then turn round and say 'oh shes not disabled' .

For example, say i have difficulties going out because of anxiety. I also have difficulties with the phone, letters, cleaning etc... Now say that I use my DLA to pay someone to help me sort out my paperwork and housework, since i am now no longer having to combat the anxiety of doing those things I have energy left over to cope with the anxiety of going out and can more often than not get myself to go out, at least in familiar places BUT cut the disbality support and I have to use that energy on overcoming and managing hte anxiety around the bills , housework and everything. I end up not being able to do anything.

[yorkiegal73]

You're absolutely right Sundries. i'm a lot less stressed because i'm not constantly panicked about running out of money.but no way am i going to ring and tell the dla about that! i'd be back to square one if they stopped it.

[aussiebabe]

I receive DLA, i suffer from severe chronic depression, PTSD and BPD. I didn't even know of it until my care coordinator told me about it. She helped me fill it in and said to fill it in as if it is your worst day. I have days when i cannot go out and my son is classed as a 'carer' because he has to do a lot for himself and a couple of times when i have been in crisis he has had to contact a friend to come and get him. He is getting support by going to 'Carer's First'. A few of my friends have said, Why are you not back at work? but they don't know what it is like 'inside' me. My care coordinator has said that i am not ready to return and when i do it should be voluntary to begin with incase of things start deteriorating. You can see a broken leg, but you can't 'see' a mental illness.

Sharonx

[caitie]

I agree with you, whenever i read those sort of notices i feel so guilty even if i am not doing anything wrong. I feel like somehow i don;t deserve to get benefits or someone is going to stop me or something- and yes, where is the recognition of the people who really need it and use it and struggle to stay alive, and, like me, use it to pay for therapy that the NHS is NOT providing so that i can get better and go back to work!

[Cynic]

Im toired of the focus always being on 'benefits cheats'. Read an online discussion about it and was going to post following reply but it wouldnt let me so i am going to post it here cos im pissed off.

Funny you should say that. I also read a discussion here.

I mean of course there is always euthanasia and suicide. That would save the tax payer a lot but I note none of the people ive heard bitching about benefits claimants are lobbying to make these methods of 'deburdening' the economy more easily accessible.

And I've brought this up time and time again with such people, and I get the same reaction - silence.

Do any of you ever stop to consider how it makes genuine claimants feel when claiming 'benefits' is made synonymous with lying cheating and stealing. Its not the small minority who do actually cheat who magnify this stereotype out of all proportion. It is the people who prefer to spend their time bitching about a few cheats instead of promoting an understanding for severely disabled people and helping them fulfil thier potential.

Aye and it doesn't help when the right wing media magnify this too.

And what gets to me is the number of you who claim to know of people who are cheating because hey they claim mobility or something but youve seen them walking around. You are not a doctor. You do not know what effect different conditions have. You can have a mobility problem without being permanently bedridden. For all you know that man you saw mending a friends fence and climbing a ladder used to be a builder but is now disabled. He's agreed to do it out of pride. the next week he is in agony and has to be hospitalised for a month, because he was too proud to admit his body couldn't cope with that kind of exertion - during which time he is dealing with one of your ignorant benefit fraud reports.

There are people with disabilities in work, and some of them are bitter when they see other claimants - some of who are perceives as "less disabled" than themselves getting DLA, or incapacity benifit.

Furthermore, about 10 times as much money set aside for benfits goes UNCLAIMED, compared with the amount stolen by fiddlers. In addition, a lot more is cost to the taxpayer by tax evasion commited by white collar rich men (or their clever accountants), yet seldom to we hear any mention of this. It is all spin by government and their bedmates in the corporate media.

Well said Sundries. B)

[Tray]

you should live where i do... there are so many its unreal, and yet people who have genuine illnesses cant get anythin.

i have tried for dla, i am gona try again. like i may have mentioned, one trigger i have is money,

my uncle is dying of cancer, he has weeks if that left, he cant get the dla terminal componant cause he isnt deemed sick enuf! he's fukin dying, how much sicker do u have to get?

my aunt applied for care's allowence cause she had to give up her part time job to care for him, after 4 months... they have given it her £19 a week, she cant get the full amopunt bout £90 week, cause she 60, and so deemed a pensioner who's just at home anyway, how stupid is that? also cause the household money has gone up by this £76 a month, they have raised their council tax by £36 month... whats the point in trying eh?they have both worked full time since they were 15, apart from the few years she had off to have kids, until my uncle got sick, and they cant claim anythin... the last thing they need is to worry about money, it makes me sooo angry.

[Cynic]

my uncle is dying of cancer, he has weeks if that left, he cant get the dla terminal componant cause he isnt deemed sick enuf! he's fukin dying, how much sicker do u have to get?

That is outrageous, though unfortunately not the first time I have heard such a thing. A couple of years ago, I read that a woman who worked as a cleaner had cancer couldn't get any time off work despite her illness. It makes your blood boil when you hear of so many cases of chancers who get disability benifits when there's nothing wrong with them. It seems to be all about one's presentation of one's case. The whole system is a game, and the chancers seem to be experts at it.

my aunt applied for care's allowence cause she had to give up her part time job to care for him, after 4 months... they have given it her £19 a week, she cant get the full amopunt bout £90 week, cause she 60, and so deemed a pensioner who's just at home anyway, how stupid is that? also cause the household money has gone up by this £76 a month, they have raised their council tax by £36 month... whats the point in trying eh?they have both worked full time since they were 15, apart from the few years she had off to have kids, until my uncle got sick, and they cant claim anythin... the last thing they need is to worry about money, it makes me sooo angry.

They can't afford to care for the sick, they say. They seem to be able to fund unjust, illegal, unnecesarry and unwinnable wars ok, yet not many make much noise about this. :angry:

[Trace]

I think its the goverments way of getting the working man attacking each other to take the focus of the real cheats, the politicians that are using and robbing us of public moneys.

[Cynic]

I think its the goverments way of getting the working man attacking each other to take the focus of the real cheats, the politicians that are using and robbing us of public moneys.

Spot on Trace! B)

[sundries]

I really dont see how people get from

'i deserve this benefit but havent got it'

to

' therefore people who have got it dont deserve it'.

Sooo, is the general consensus that people who are 'really' ill cant get disability benefits because they dont know how to fill in the form and those who do get disability benefits are therefore cheats, scroungers, chancers, frauds etc....

yet wouldnt it be more realistic to think that the people who get awarded it get awarded it because ............... they make the effort to read the guidelines on how to fill in the form so they know what information and the level of detail that the form is looking for? Or they get a professional to fill it in? Or they get awarded it on tribunal?

basically, if you arent getting the benefit you either

1) havent filled in the form sufficiently clearly to describe your condition and its effect on you

2) just arent entitled to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

either way, it doesnt make the people on these benefits cheats.

and I wonder why it is we hear of so many cases of 'chancers' getting it? because that is all people focus on, the tiny tiny tiny minority of claimants who ARE cheating the system (and who will probably get caught in the end). Maybe we would all have a different impression if people spent more time talking about the genuine claimants (i believe there are many on this board)...........but I guess thats just not interesting, I guess people would much rather bitch than think about all the cases where the benefit is doing exactly what it is there for.

[Cynic]

I really dont see how people get from

'i deserve this benefit but havent got it'

to

' therefore people who have got it dont deserve it'.

Another thing is that a lot of people regard mentall illness as "not disabled enough", to warrant disability allowance - if you can walk and talk, you're as fit as everyone else. Right? Wrong, but that is many people's assumptions so that anyone who gets disability allowance but doesn't physically appear to have anything wrong with them is assumed to be faking it. Of course, many of those people who make these assumptions see the gangsters on their local pub or housing estate scamming so they may assume that anyone who appears normal on the surface is claiming fraudulantly.

Sooo, is the general consensus that people who are 'really' ill cant get disability benefits because they dont know how to fill in the form

The forms are like 50 pages long, full of difficult questions - many of which apply to physical disabilities which can make it even more difficult for mental patients to present a decent case.

and those who do get disability benefits are therefore cheats, scroungers, chancers, frauds etc....

Well the government and their corporate media lapdogs love to play on all kinds of benifit fraud. This isn't confined to disability. It applies to any welfare.

yet wouldnt it be more realistic to think that the people who get awarded it get awarded it because ............... they make the effort to read the guidelines on how to fill in the form so they know what information and the level of detail that the form is looking for? Or they get a professional to fill it in?

It is a good idea to get professional help if you're applying for benifits.

Or they get awarded it on tribunal?

I have heard that many claiments who are knocked back the first time can win it on appeal.

and I wonder why it is we hear of so many cases of 'chancers' getting it? because that is all people focus on, the tiny tiny tiny minority of claimants who ARE cheating the system (and who will probably get caught in the end).

The elitist tool of 'divide and conquer'. A lot of working people hate the welfare state. They think that those on benifits receive a life of luxury, based on TV programmes such as Wife Swap and the like. The ruling class intend to keep the working class squabbling amongst themselves and point to those out of work to kick down at. Its the same principle as that used against immigrants, single parents, beggars etc. 'divide and conquer', so the working class never turn on the elites, who screw everyone in one way or another.

Maybe we would all have a different impression if people spent more time talking about the genuine claimants (i believe there are many on this board)...........but I guess thats just not interesting, I guess people would much rather bitch than think about all the cases where the benefit is doing exactly what it is there for.

Crime sells...but at what cost. :huh:

[amy123]

I really dont see how people get from

'i deserve this benefit but havent got it'

to

' therefore people who have got it dont deserve it'.

Another thing is that a lot of people regard mentall illness as "not disabled enough", to warrant disability allowance - if you can walk and talk, you're as fit as everyone else. Right? Wrong, but that is many people's assumptions so that anyone who gets disability allowance but doesn't physically appear to have anything wrong with them is assumed to be faking it. Of course, many of those people who make these assumptions see the gangsters on their local pub or housing estate scamming so they may assume that anyone who appears normal on the surface is claiming fraudulantly.

Sooo, is the general consensus that people who are 'really' ill cant get disability benefits because they dont know how to fill in the form

The forms are like 50 pages long, full of difficult questions - many of which apply to physical disabilities which can make it even more difficult for mental patients to present a decent case.

and those who do get disability benefits are therefore cheats, scroungers, chancers, frauds etc....

Well the government and their corporate media lapdogs love to play on all kinds of benifit fraud. This isn't confined to disability. It applies to any welfare.

yet wouldnt it be more realistic to think that the people who get awarded it get awarded it because ............... they make the effort to read the guidelines on how to fill in the form so they know what information and the level of detail that the form is looking for? Or they get a professional to fill it in?

It is a good idea to get professional help if you're applying for benifits.

Or they get awarded it on tribunal?

I have heard that many claiments who are knocked back the first time can win it on appeal.

and I wonder why it is we hear of so many cases of 'chancers' getting it? because that is all people focus on, the tiny tiny tiny minority of claimants who ARE cheating the system (and who will probably get caught in the end).

The elitist tool of 'divide and conquer'. A lot of working people hate the welfare state. They think that those on benifits receive a life of luxury, based on TV programmes such as Wife Swap and the like. The ruling class intend to keep the working class squabbling amongst themselves and point to those out of work to kick down at. Its the same principle as that used against immigrants, single parents, beggars etc. 'divide and conquer', so the working class never turn on the elites, who screw everyone in one way or another.

Maybe we would all have a different impression if people spent more time talking about the genuine claimants (i believe there are many on this board)...........but I guess thats just not interesting, I guess people would much rather bitch than think about all the cases where the benefit is doing exactly what it is there for.

Crime sells...but at what cost.

[amy123]

i have cerebeller ataxia(which affects my balance and nervous system)and i got refused d.l.a too,i fall alot and very unbalanced

i think its discraseful.

amy

[Cynic]

i have cerebeller ataxia(which affects my balance and nervous system)and i got refused d.l.a too,i fall alot and very unbalanced

Did you appeal?

[skylace]

I feel like a fraud for claiming benefits and HATE it when people ask what I do for a living. I am not cheating the system - I cant work for a reason but of course unless you have a physical disability, people assume you can just go out and get a job. I could understand comments if I was working AND claiming benefits but I dont nor wouldnt do.

I think the worse comments I have had is from family members: "why dont you just go and get a job", "I pay for your benefits"(tax etc) and my 2 favourites "benefit scrounger" and "If I throw up my food and cut myself would I be able to get benefits". Makes me really angry - I would LOVE to have a full time job, good money etc but at the moment it isnt possible.

My sister has to be the worse though - she is constantly making snide comments - yet she receives working tax credits (almost the same £ as both of my benefits).

Re DLA - Im not sure how they work out who gets it - I know people who have applied and been refused who have similar problems to myself - the system for DLA seems a bit messed up. I think you can appeal though which is worth doing

[amy123]

no cynic i didnt appeal

[yorkiegal73]

DLA is very messed up when it comes to decision making.

I get around £330 per month in it (low mobility and high care). my friend gets the same for her depression but she works full time.

A neighbours son has severe learning difficulties and just gets lower care.

I think I got the higher amount because i was hospitalised at the same time that they got around to deciding my claim. I fully expect it to go down at the next review.

[bibiddi]

It upsets me when people get angry towards people who are on benefits.

I'm on incapacity benefit, which entitles me to just over £4000 a year.

According to the 'John Lewis list' MP's are entitled to spend up to £10,000 every year on a new kitchen - and they dont need to produce a receipt, so its common practice to claim the £10,000 without having a new kitchen.

It doesnt make me feel valued and cared for.

Shouldnt we be looking elsewhere for fraudsters and cheats rather than the vulnerable people on benefits?