A Bit Confused...advice Please...

[twistedpingu]

Hi everyone, i'm new to this and am just after a bit of advice and reassurance really.....

i've no idea if i actually suffer with BPD and am just wondering if anyone else has the same issues as me as it is really starting to affect how I live my life...

i've always been quite shy and unconfident and from the age of about 14 (i'm now 23) i've suffered prolonged periods of depression and anxiety, which has rarely left me. I've never felt like i fit in anywhere: in school, work or any social group, although i've often had many groups of friends, they've never lasted and gradually fade into nothing, usually within a year or so of meeting them. I don't know if this is because I find it hard to communicate with people. I never feel people actually want to spend time with me and they only invite me out of pity. I rarely contact anyone as I'm in the mindset that they won't want to talk to me and will reject me.

I have a history of self harm, alcohol abuse and excessive spending...to the point where i'm now massively in debt. This leaves me feeling regretful and hateful towards myself for getting into such a mess. I have poor self image and low confidence. I don't feel like i'm capable of achieving anything. I have no idea what kind of person I am anymore, what interests me or what life path I should be taking. I have made no progress in my career as I don't know what my skills are and I am reluctant to go to uni for fear of failing and not fitting in.

As for relationships with guys, in the past they have always been very turbulant. Sometimes with violent and abusive arguments. Usually ending with me self harming in someway..either cutting or burning..i'm pretty sure this was for attention and to make my boyfriend feel bad for upsetting me. I have always been paranoid of being cheated on yet have been unfaithful to everyone of my partners. My current boyfriend is very supportive, but I find it impossible to talk to him about it for fear he wont understand, so he just sees me as miserable and depressed.

I get angry, jealous and paranoid very easily, just the slightest thing like my boyfriend not replying quickly to a text message or a friend cancelling a night out. I usually get left feeling neglected and hateful and can result in me lashing out or seeking revenge by doing something similar to them...but this soon disappears when they contact me again.

I feel I have partially been living my life in a bubble, I can vaguely remember stuff that has happened to me in the past and I often feel spaced out and like I'm not really here.

I did go to my doctor for a while a few years back and was on prozac, but they didn't work and I found my GP patronising and controlling so I refused to go back.

None of my family no how I feel as I don't particularly trust them.

If anyone feels like this and has any tips on how to feel a bit better that'd be great!

and sorry for waffling on but it's been building up in me for a long time!

[bibiddi]

There are a squillion different types of anti depressants, so if prozac wasnt working you could try a different one.

Try and go back to your doctor, or if you dont like them, look for another one thats nicer.

The right anti depressant can really make a difference with the depression. Also if necessary they can refer you for more treatment.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Twistedpingu

I really like your name! I used to love Pingu, he made me laugh a lot. Moop Moop!

From what you have said there, I feel myself identifying a lot. To me it sounds like you are in a lot of pain, and have been for a very long time. It made me sad to read it because it sounds like you have felt so alone for so long and life keeps going in the same circles for you, no matter what you do. You sound like me in that it feels like things build up and then your emotions just come busting forth, theres nothing you can do, and then you have to survey the mess they created, putting yet another little spike through your heart as you realise you are lost again.

Certainly from what you describe, there are traits in there that a psychistrist would see as being part of personality disorder, possibly BPD. Its also a common experience to feel ignored by GP's and to feel unheard - part of that is our own sensitivity to not feeling heard and understood, and part of it is that many GP's do not properly understand the human element of emotional problems - they tend t buy into the psychiatric (not psychological) view that these are 'illnesses' that need to be treated. I dont see it that way - I see personality disorders as the unique ways that people, who are in pain, have evolved to try and cope with a world that they were not shown how to cope with, and who missed out on important emotional gifts. These missing gifts are what cause that big hole inside us, and leave us with no sense of direction. The gifts come in childhood, and they are gifts that we deserve unconditionally. Sometimes we dont get them. Being given food and a roof over our heads is one gift. Material things are one realm only. The other realm is the emotional gifts - being heard, being recognised as a human in our own rights, being made to feel that all our emotions are important and wanted, and to have those emotions reflected back to us so that we know what they are and how to deal with them.

With no one to reflect our worlds back at us, by understanding, listening to and feeling with us, we have no true map of who we are in this world. We needed other people (our parents) to help us make sense of ourselves, teach us to soothe our pain, and make us feel that all of our emotions are ok. Very often we are made to feel that one or more of our emotions are not acceptable, and so we hide it away. At the sme time, because we are not getting that deep acceptance of everything that we are and the warmth that comes with it, we dont develop a healhty sense of what love really is. We find substituts for that love - maybe sex, drugs, gambling, sympathy, admiration, achievement etc. Things that make us feel momentarily better, but can never ever approach what we were owed by our parents.

Relationships in the world are conditional. Lovers can leave us. Friends can ditch us. Our parents love should be UNconditional - not based on behaving right, performing well, or on looking after THEIR feelings. But many people with personality disorders had parents whose love was conditional. We have been given a handicap early in life because we were not given that essential step of unconsitional love. We may look back and feel we had a great childhood. We may overlook incidences of being ignored, of feeling hurt, because it was what we knew. How could normality be wrong? But the hole inside us tells us that something was missing, and we have no name for that hole because we have never seen whats meant to go there. Also, being TOLD you are loved is not the same as receiving the actions that show you are loved. Your heart will tell you one thing and your ears tell you another - and this can drive you crazy as the reality of your own emotions is denied over and over. That is invalidation.

As we chase those surrogates for love - sex, achievement - we are destined to feel forever empty. Like a jigsaw puzzle, the surrogates are a different shape to the hole that real physical expressions of love (validation, acceptance of all emotions, soothing, guidance, and protection) leave if not met. The surrgates might cover the hole over for a bit, like an ill fitting jigsaw piece, but soon the pice falls off and uncovers the hole again.

Psyhciatrists may tell you that you have a chemical imbalance and want to give you drugs, but again this is another ill-fitting jigsaw piece. Prozac cannot fill a hole that all the correct expressions of love should have filled. There are multiple elements that bar the way to happiness for those with personality disorders. First we didnt get what we needed. On top of that we may have recieved abuse (not necessary to cause emotional problems, but adds to the severity). Then we find our surrogates, our ways of feeling something like love. We learn ways of relating to the world based on what we experienced as kids - we see everyone else as an extension of that childhood world. Because that world was not optimally healthy, we behave in ways that hurt us. We seem like our own worst enemenies, but yet we are stuck in the cycle, we cant get out. To give up those surrogates feel terrifying because it feels like giving up on the hope of ever feeling loved, safe, home.

But we have never known what real love looks and feels like - we only have the surrogate. We need to find ways to allow those real expressions of love in, and to abandon the surrogates - but the loss of trust, the loss of self-value, and the initial inability to recognise true expressions of love stop us from letting it in. When people really care about us, we may see them as fake, or simply boring. Abusive people are what we grew up with, and we spent our childhoods trying to win the love of those abusive people. Someohow without the abusive, uncaring element, 'love' doesnt feel right. There's no chemistry. We are doomed to keep playing out our childhoods, desperately hoping that the next time we meet an abusve person we will be able to change them, make them see the error of their ways and finally love us - the one thing thing that we could never get our parents to do and keep reliving in our relationships with others.

Abandining these life-rings, these surrogates, abandinign old ways and suspending dibleief for long enough to see the alternate reality that exists right under our noses, is TERRFIYING. It feels like letting go of what little we have to cling to. But its an illusion. Through therapy its possible to find out that human beings are capable of giving us real love and the physical (not just sex and cuddles) expressions of it. Through therapy we can uncover our cycles and our ways of seeing other people that keep us from ever breaing out of them. Through therapy we can unlearn past messages about whether people can be trusted (some people can, some people cant) and why we are drawn to those who hurt us. Through therapy we can begin to learn how to express our true needs and feelings and how to be vulnerable - and when we feel the difference that this true intimacy brings, we begin to see how to be close to people. Closenss is not won or earned - it is given away. To feel close to you, a person must know you. But if you feel vile underneath, if you feel that all your emotions are vil and wrong and that you must never express how you feel, no one can ever get close. They can never know who you are. You will saty 'apart', though the friendsip may last for as long as you can find 'things' that give at least some satisfaction. But this can never give that deep, accepting warmth - because, how can you be accepted for all you are if you never show people who you are?

Sorry for the length of the post - these are all the things I have dicovered about my own emotions and the challenges I have to face. I also feel that, outside of diagnoses and psychitrsts offices, that there are many common human experiences and common human ways of reacting and keeping ourselve stuck. I feel that these need a human solution, not a pharmacological one - but that nowadays the human one gets buried in the name of expediency. Its quicker to prescibe prozac than to sit down and understand someone. I think that doctors need to think more about peoples hearts instead of the circuitry of their brains - which after all only reflects the state of the soul thats inside them.

Its very likely that you could be diagnosed with BPD, but the key is finding the right approaches that will fill that hole in your heart. I think you have seen that drugs may not be the answer, and also not every type of psychotherapy will be right for you to fill in that hole. Therapies like CBT and DBT can teach you to address some of the behaviours that you have that cause you to stay stuck, and may to some extent help you to break out of the rut you are in, but they do not go to the depth of providing that warmth and acceptance that exist in a proper one-to-one relationship. DBT/CBT might be able to get you to apint where you can get those things from your environment - eg boyfriends and so on, but that is not guranteed. If you are so stuck at that level where you did not recieve all the things you needed as a kid, then deeper therapy that exploes emotions may be what you need to shrug off this sizeable anchor. I am having good experiences with Schema Therapy, though some other do well with Psychodynamic therapy. There are newer therapies as well, one in particluar called IRT - Interpersoanl Reconstructive Therapy. But the key in personality disorders is a caring relationship with a therapist - and this is something that takes time and work. Technique and workbooks cannot provide it - it is organic. But the process of learning to have a relationship with a therapist is what lets us unlearn the old ways and find new ones - ones which we then take out into the world so that we can finally find the real love an acceptance we were actually looking for - but didnt realise it.

[twistedpingu]

Hi, it's always nice to meet a fellow pingu fan!

thank you for taking the time and effort to respond in such detail, it's very much appreciated. I was worried that I came across a bit too egotistical in the way I wrote it ( i hate talking about myself, so this is a first!).

I really felt that you hit the nail on the head with many of your points, and have helped to make a couple of things that little bit clearer. (I'm afraid I am going to start venting again, however stupid it may sound, so feel free to click the back button on your browser)

I really do feel like I'm going round in circles, everytime I see a glimmer of something brighter it soon disperses back into nothing but confusion and feelings of failure. Generally I try and repress my thoughts and feelings, which in turn makes me feel empty and alone.

I'm not sure I can comment on the relationship with my parents, apart from the fact I've never really known where I stand with them. The past is pretty hazy to me and I only remember brief snippets, which admittedly are generally the memories I regret or felt unwanted......

i do find it impossible to reveal my true emotions to people and let them get close to me...suppose this might be why I've pretty much forgotton who I am...

I agree with your comments about the drugs, I've never believed they are a lasting solution, and is partly the reason I've never returned to taking them. But I'm also finding it incredibly hard to pluck up the courage to even go back to my GP and ask for help...it's taking me years to even get as far as posting on here...i'm shaking as a type this!

anyway, thanks again for your insightful reply, I will certainly be referring back to it at times, as it definately hit a few nerves, and it was kind of relieving to find I'm not the only one.

[lostinme]

I see personality disorders as the unique ways that people, who are in pain, have evolved to try and cope with a world that they were not shown how to cope with, and who missed out on important emotional gifts. These missing gifts are what cause that big hole inside us, and leave us with no sense of direction. The gifts come in childhood, and they are gifts that we deserve unconditionally. Sometimes we dont get them. Being given food and a roof over our heads is one gift. Material things are one realm only. The other realm is the emotional gifts - being heard, being recognised as a human in our own rights, being made to feel that all our emotions are important and wanted, and to have those emotions reflected back to us so that we know what they are and how to deal with them.

With no one to reflect our worlds back at us, by understanding, listening to and feeling with us, we have no true map of who we are in this world. We needed other people (our parents) to help us make sense of ourselves, teach us to soothe our pain, and make us feel that all of our emotions are ok. Very often we are made to feel that one or more of our emotions are not acceptable, and so we hide it away. At the sme time, because we are not getting that deep acceptance of everything that we are and the warmth that comes with it, we dont develop a healhty sense of what love really is. We find substituts for that love - maybe sex, drugs, gambling, sympathy, admiration, achievement etc. Things that make us feel momentarily better, but can never ever approach what we were owed by our parents.

i just wanted to say that almost made me cry.. it was such a beautiful way of describing something so intense and confusing that is part of most of us..

twistedpingu, i agree you sound sooo sad, reading that made me feel like all you felt was lonely, and it reminded me of me when i was in my longest depressive episode, all i can say is persist, i know it is difficult but there is always a way back into the world, even just to peak your head through long enough to ask for help. keep talking and im sure you will find a lot of help.. and for now heres a hug *hug*

[twistedpingu]

I couldn't agree with you more. It really does spark something within reading such words. Thanks for the hug, it is taking a lot of effort to keep myself going at the moment, so any bit of support is appreciated!

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi, it's always nice to meet a fellow pingu fan!

thank you for taking the time and effort to respond in such detail, it's very much appreciated. I was worried that I came across a bit too egotistical in the way I wrote it ( i hate talking about myself, so this is a first!).

I really felt that you hit the nail on the head with many of your points, and have helped to make a couple of things that little bit clearer. (I'm afraid I am going to start venting again, however stupid it may sound, so feel free to click the back button on your browser)

I really do feel like I'm going round in circles, everytime I see a glimmer of something brighter it soon disperses back into nothing but confusion and feelings of failure. Generally I try and repress my thoughts and feelings, which in turn makes me feel empty and alone.

I'm not sure I can comment on the relationship with my parents, apart from the fact I've never really known where I stand with them. The past is pretty hazy to me and I only remember brief snippets, which admittedly are generally the memories I regret or felt unwanted......

i do find it impossible to reveal my true emotions to people and let them get close to me...suppose this might be why I've pretty much forgotton who I am...

I agree with your comments about the drugs, I've never believed they are a lasting solution, and is partly the reason I've never returned to taking them. But I'm also finding it incredibly hard to pluck up the courage to even go back to my GP and ask for help...it's taking me years to even get as far as posting on here...i'm shaking as a type this!

anyway, thanks again for your insightful reply, I will certainly be referring back to it at times, as it definately hit a few nerves, and it was kind of relieving to find I'm not the only one.

Hi TP

To me it sounds like you have a vast appreciation of what your difficulties are, a lot of insight.

It is kind of the done thing, the received wisdom, that when it comes to emotional problems we should instantly go to see a doctor. Thats understandable, thats the way its always been. But in fact when it comes to emotional problems, this is not the only option by any means. In my opinion, it is one of the worst options because you are essentially having a lifetime of pain weighed up by an impartial GP in the space of a 5-10 minute session. GP's are not taught in any detail about the psychology of emotional problems - in general, they will know about the availability of psychotherapy within the local NHS, and they will have a recently updated (by drug companies) manual of psycho-active drugs. Without going into the politics of these, the doctor, if you manage to convincce him or her that you are actually in enough pain to warrant psychotherapy - something which for a person trained by her childhood to NEVER DISCUSS EMOTIONS is almost impossible - a short referral letter will be sent to the psychotherapy dept.

Many people do not know the difference between psychiatrists and psychotherapists. Just in case you are one of those people, a psychiatrist will belive that your emotional problems have a biological or genetic route and will see it as a medical problem to be treated, perhaps with drugs but also psychotherapy. They are "P-Docs", with a medical background and a medical view. Psychotheraposts on the other hand believe in more psychological and social causes of human emotional problems, and so treat you like a human, not 'the diseased'. Psychiatrists can diagnose you and give you drugs. Psychotherapists cannot. The two camps have very different backgrounds and training. But forgive my politics ...

I wont go into the background of what can happen next because, again it is my own politics and frustrations, based on a decade of experience with the NHS, but suffice to say that the short-termist nature of local budgets means that BPD - which needs very long term therapy - does not feature in a large way on that budget. Prove me wrong by all means, I would be happy to see you referred for the effective therapy you need, but my experience suggests that at best you will get short term psychotherapy, such as CBT or DBT, that may paper some cracks. If you are 'extreme' enough you may get a Therapeutic Community - but there are others on this site better able to advise what needs to happen before you get into one of them.

My recommendation based on this experience, is to seek out private psychotherapy. Most will react and say "I cant afford that" or "I could never talk to someone in that way". For some, travle options are limited. The problem is, most people dont try the 'more difficult' options until they have exhausted the 'easier but dont actually work' options. I did the same and it lost me many years in my recovery.

Private therapy is more expensive, but it is not time limited like much of the NHS therapy. Private therapists will therefore give you the time to become comfy with them, to form a relationship. Trust is the key to treating PD's, IMO, as after all PD's are a RUPTURE in trust for our fellow humans. Private therapists tend to be the more experienced, better qualified of the two - this is down to financial reasons. If youre good enough, you can charge private rates. The NHS doesnt pay that well. If you can earn the money, what would YOU do in their position? After having wasted a year on NHS therapists who both left me feeling invalidated, rushed and angry, I decided to only ever use private psychotherapy. Because I am sick and tired enough of being how I am and of being so unhappy, it doesnt matter to me if I have to pay for it. When I am better I can earn money, and the cars, houses clothes etc can wait.

But that is just me. My recpvery has always come before anything else because I got to the pint many years ago where I had had enough. It was only recently that i found out that the reason it was taking so long was because I had a personality disorder - something that 5 psychiatrists, 3 psychotherapists (though they are not in a position to diagnose) and many, many doctors had missed. Finally within provate psychotherapy I am finding a course of help that is actually making a difference. Its expensive, and its also not available on the NHS (precisely because it is long term and will not fit a Mental health budget).

My advice to you is to first find out everything you can about personality disorders, and to begin to see ways in which the pasts of those people refelect your own. Yu will find a number of psychiatrically orieted people that want you to belive that its all biology - ignore them, and keep finding your own truth. Understand you own problems, and write out everything that effects you. Yes, even the deep, shameful, scary stuff. ESPECIALLY the deep, shameful scary stuff. I mean the paranoia, any frekay things you could never tell anyone else, the actual stuff of personality disorders. If you get crazily paranoid sometimes, write it. If you have outburts of rage, write it. If you have odd beliefs about yourself and others, see things that arent there, write it. If you use sex, drugs or any other addiction to keep yourself above water, write it. Say how LONG you have had this, say how much it affects you, hurts you, and keeps you trapped. You can write it on paper because you wont be facing a person - you just hand them the sheet. You have already written a lot up there, and yes it seems to reflect elements of BPD. Have you read the DSM criteria for BPD before? Once you have the list, find a good, private psychotherapist, experieced in treating personality disorders. Take it to them. The list will mean that you dont have to open up yet - they can just read it. Then you begin. I am having Schema Therapy - the version designed to help those diagnosed as suffering from BPD (there is a trimmed down version for depression, anxiety etc etc), which my therapist chose because from my own list I gave her, it was clear that was what I needed. She was right.

BPD is one of the most researched yet least understood DSM diagnoses out there. There are claims by some its untreatable, claims by other that it must be 'managed' with drugs, claims by others that one form of psychotherapy is effective, and claims by still yet others that in fact there is so much overlap across DSM (and ICD-10 for the diagnosis buffs out there) diagnoses that we are not really looking at discrete 'disorders', but in fact a spectrum of emotional responses to emotional shortfalls and injuries that can befall every human being. I can only give you my experiences (short version of list as the full oneis a full page):

1) 6 types of drugs including 4 ssris and one major tranquilliser

2) Psychodynamic, Hypnosis, CBT, DBT (self-help), Client Centred Counselling and Schema Therapies

3) THOUSANDS of supplements and an ill-advised trip to an 'Applied Kinesiologist' quack allergy doctor

4) HUNDREDS of self help books, psychology and psychiatry texts and journal articles.

5) Diagnoses of Depression, Anxiety, Social Anxiety, Dysthymia, PTSD as well as myriad unexplaiable side symtpoms before finally someone listened to me properly and they realised it was a bit deeper.

6) Multiple 'methods', techniques, approaches, motivational gimmicks ... you name it, ive tried it.

The only thing that breaks through the barrier of my feelings is the one thing that was always missing - being heard, being valued, being protected. Once I receive this from my therapist, the mists clear more powerfully than any drug ever has. No side effects, no nausea, no sexual problems, no electric shock sensations - just the sudden sense of the 'hole' being filled in like it never has before. To me that proves one thing - you can only treat emotional problems with the emotion thats missing in the first place. You cant teach someone self-esteem, you cannot teach them 'coping skills' - at best you can make them appear on the surface that they are doing slightly better than before. A technique, method or book cannot give someone what can only come from one human to another.

You can only affect that deep, very human-shaped hole with another human, one who cares for, protects and guides you. A good psychotherapist can tick all those boxes whilst at the same time know exactly how to guide you along a path of self-informed change and development. They dont cure you, treat you, or any of these over-medicalised notions of psychotherapy. They work WITH you to uncover the emotional gaps and injuries in your life and, acting as a supportive, warm and secure base, help you to build a new model of life and yourself. To learn how to receive love - because up til now you may never truly have.

Thats the advice I give at the end of a decade and a half of searching for answers, and now finally actually FEEL a change - in my heart.

This is only my experience, and of course others have different ones. Explore all the options you have, if one doesnt work, dont give up. It doesnt mean youre hopeless, it just means you have found the right key yet. My key was that core of emotions, the ones that i was too scared to look at before and hid from. It was that fear that actually kept me stuck. Progress is a bit forward, a bit back. You may get worse before you get better. It may take years. Know this, be prepared for it, and it will go quicker.

[joysmelody]

I don't think there's anyway else to say but straight up - and that's there are no quick fixes for this - unless somewhere in the Amazon there's a plant that's the antidote for this disorder and I just haven't heard about it. This is long-term coping, re-membering, repairing and getting your Self back. All I can give you right now is this - it stems from your earliest childhood trauma - even if you can't remember it - and sometimes from the womb itself - pre-cognizant memory. The work is really cut out for us to find out where the breaks are in our psyches and how to put ourselves back together in the right places. I haven't been able to do this and I'm 49 with ALL the panic that triggers entail. Because of the relationship issues and how badly I've reacted to them, I am a virtual hermit. I just can't go through any more pain needlessly if I can AVOID it. You will have to find a COMFORTABLE means to survive without the ability to inherently regulate your emotions. A lot of us do this by artificial means - we have no other choice. So whatever that entails, in a safe way - you have to get some kind of control back over your life. That's the first step. Awareness about the condition is also crucial. You have to make this a life quest with healing your goal.

Hi everyone, i'm new to this and am just after a bit of advice and reassurance really.....

i've no idea if i actually suffer with BPD and am just wondering if anyone else has the same issues as me as it is really starting to affect how I live my life...

i've always been quite shy and unconfident and from the age of about 14 (i'm now 23) i've suffered prolonged periods of depression and anxiety, which has rarely left me. I've never felt like i fit in anywhere: in school, work or any social group, although i've often had many groups of friends, they've never lasted and gradually fade into nothing, usually within a year or so of meeting them. I don't know if this is because I find it hard to communicate with people. I never feel people actually want to spend time with me and they only invite me out of pity. I rarely contact anyone as I'm in the mindset that they won't want to talk to me and will reject me.

I have a history of self harm, alcohol abuse and excessive spending...to the point where i'm now massively in debt. This leaves me feeling regretful and hateful towards myself for getting into such a mess. I have poor self image and low confidence. I don't feel like i'm capable of achieving anything. I have no idea what kind of person I am anymore, what interests me or what life path I should be taking. I have made no progress in my career as I don't know what my skills are and I am reluctant to go to uni for fear of failing and not fitting in.

As for relationships with guys, in the past they have always been very turbulant. Sometimes with violent and abusive arguments. Usually ending with me self harming in someway..either cutting or burning..i'm pretty sure this was for attention and to make my boyfriend feel bad for upsetting me. I have always been paranoid of being cheated on yet have been unfaithful to everyone of my partners. My current boyfriend is very supportive, but I find it impossible to talk to him about it for fear he wont understand, so he just sees me as miserable and depressed.

I get angry, jealous and paranoid very easily, just the slightest thing like my boyfriend not replying quickly to a text message or a friend cancelling a night out. I usually get left feeling neglected and hateful and can result in me lashing out or seeking revenge by doing something similar to them...but this soon disappears when they contact me again.

I feel I have partially been living my life in a bubble, I can vaguely remember stuff that has happened to me in the past and I often feel spaced out and like I'm not really here.

I did go to my doctor for a while a few years back and was on prozac, but they didn't work and I found my GP patronising and controlling so I refused to go back.

None of my family no how I feel as I don't particularly trust them.

If anyone feels like this and has any tips on how to feel a bit better that'd be great!

and sorry for waffling on but it's been building up in me for a long time!

[hummm_mabbe]

I wanted to add a bit more. I identify with what you are saying about your parents - that feeling of haziness. I want to share something I have found with you in the hope that it may begin to open a little crack in understanding. I hope that what i say will not seem offensive or too shocking.

From the 1960's until the mid 1980's a Child Developmental Psychologist called John Bowlby (now referred to as the father of child developmental psychology) conducted ongoing studies of the way that a mother and child relate to one another, how the mother treats the child, and how it responds, and what happens to those children as they grow up. He identified 3 main relating styles - 1) secure 2) Anxious resistant 3) Anxious avoidant. To keep post length down, i will tell you that in mothers that were unpredictable to the children - sometimes they responded warmly, other times not so much, sometimes they left the child to cry, sometimes they misjudged the babies signals for what it needed and assumed that it wanted something else, sometimes they were impatient, rough or cruel - certain key differences began to be noticed in the babies behaviour. They showed signs of not knowing whether or when to approach their mothers.

I'm not sure I can comment on the relationship with my parents, apart from the fact I've never really known where I stand with them. The past is pretty hazy to me and I only remember brief snippets, which admittedly are generally the memories I regret or felt unwanted......

Most key was that, if the child became angry and the mother punished the child - perhaps by withdrawing, getting angry back etc - with time the baby learned through fear that it must not show that emotion.

it's taking me years to even get as far as posting on here...i'm shaking as a type this!

After all, a mother to a baby is the most important thing - without her, it will die. These same babies were then followed through childhood, and what was observed was that those same emotions remained shut off. The more emotions that were "unacceptable", the more the child hid them, to the point where s/he no longer recognized what they were. They developed 'false selves' which served as what they thought were acceptable ways of being - for their parents. But they had no sense of true self.

Generally I try and repress my thoughts and feelings, which in turn makes me feel empty and alone. i do find it impossible to reveal my true emotions to people and let them get close to me...suppose this might be why I've pretty much forgotton who I am...

These were the children who suffered the worst social difficulties, and began to develop depressions and anxieites. In fact even at toddler level, normal behaviours such as exploration of the environment changed. In babies who were deemed 'secure' a couple years before, they approached their mothers whether happy, sad or distressed. The most astounding observation was that the babies that had more dismissive treatment only approached the mother when they were content. They were actually burying negative emotions form their mother before they could even speak. As they entered adulthood, these were the people diagnosed with personality disorders - narcissistic, borderline.

Their environment was that way from before the time they could even speak. It was what they knew. They learned to hide an entire section of their emotional selves. As they grew up, they grew into emotional problems. But could they have been able to say what their parents did wrong? When you live in something, and know nothing else, how can you pick out what was wrong? If from your very earliest experience you blocked out an entire emotion, how could you have known that other people were allowed to express it from the word go? Marsha Linehan, a well known BPD researcher, noted that the common thread amongst BPD sufferers was invalidation - the feeling that they were not heard, respected, recognised - that their very selves and most important feelings had been shut away forever, but yet leak out in explosive ways.

The only clue the growing children had that something was wrong was the myriad emotional problems they had around them.

When you read the research and read these descriptions of the mothers, you may recognise your mum there too, perhaps your dad as well. But that will come from the later childhood and teen years. You cant REMEMBER whether they were like that with you as a baby ... but if they were like that to you from the earliest memories you DO have, why should they have been any different when you were a baby?

In this way you can come to see how your past made you, even though you cant 'remember' obvious abuses like you see on TV or hear about in terrible newspaper reports. The studies show that the chronic suppression of one or more emotions, learned in early babyhood, can lead to personality disorder, even in the absence of physical, sexual or other abuse. In fact, this IS emotional abuse - but we are not permitted to make such indictments of our parents - its "not the done thing". And this comes from that other need we had when we were babies - the need to believe that our parents are 'all good'. We carry this same need with us into adulthood without ever questioning it, or simply being too afraid to. It keeps us stuck and it stops us reaching out to get what was truly missing.

More than anything, these bad working models of how life is and people are keep us repeating the past and the same mistakes.

I really do feel like I'm going round in circles, every time I see a glimmer of something brighter it soon disperses back into nothing but confusion and feelings of failure.

If you want to learn more, read "The making and breaking of affectional bonds" and "a secure base" by John Bowlby. Controversial precisely because it implicates parental actions in the causes of psychological problems, and because it muscles out biological psychiatry's claim on mental illness, you will find criticisms of his work. However, the recent rash of custom-built therapies for personality disorders are ALL built on his work (eg Schema, IRT) - and the new studies coming out also show that these therapies work.

In a way you have come to this at a good time - there is quite a revolution going on in the treatment of PD's and a lot of old crusty beliefs around them are falling away. You will still come across a lot of them - that doesn’t make them right.

[hummm_mabbe]

Actually I feel a bit naughty. I suppose I should give you some more options too. Here are the common approaches for BPD:

Druuugs:

SSRI's: Prozac, sertaline, effexor etc for depression and anxiety

Benzos and tranqs: Temazpam, clonazepam, xanax (not too sure about these ones, they scare me)

Mood stabilzers: Lithium to um, stabilise mood

Also possibly anti-psychotics and atyipcal anti-psychotics / neuroleptics to well, yeh - anti the psychotic, and cause you brain damage.

Therapy

Psychodynamic therapy / Transference Focused Therapy

Dialectical behavioural Therapy (DBT)

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT)

STEPPS (Systems Training for Emotional Predictability and Problem Solving )

Schema Therapy

Interpersonal Reconstructive Therapy (IRT)

Other

TC's, or Therapeutic Communties - live-in places where you get therapy sort of all the time, both group and one-to-one, alongside people in the same boat.

There will be others that have been used to try to treat BPD too.

[twistedpingu]

thanks joysmelody for your response.

I am tryin to gain some sort of awareness on this as it really is starting to take up far too much of my time and is pretty much disabling me from doing anything. I'm sorry to hear you've not found a completely positive answer to what your going through, it must be so hard. I'd say i am also one for avoiding relationships, but obviously being younger I'm sure I havent gone through it to the same extent you have, but I have pretty much given up even trying to form attachments with people, which isn't ideal because i have become far to dependant on the few I have left......even if I can just start to understand how all this works, it would be a step in the right direction....

and to hm...

i really am trying to figure out for myself what is going on, but obviously after so many years it has pretty much become the norm for me to feel and act like I do, so attempting to figure out what is eating away at me so much isn't easy...and it is impossible for me to diagnose myself as I seem to have suffered at least one aspect of almost every PD I've researched,at some point in the past 10 years....

I have considered private therapy as it was far more appealing to me than going on the NHS (after experiences of my own and others) but given the debt I've racked up over the years, this really isnt an option for me, as any spare money I have goes towards that (not out of choice)....

you suggest writing everything down....in august last year i did write a very detailed diary about everything I felt at the time and anything that related to my past. Much to my distress my parents found this and read it, which made me feel incredibly ashamed for being how i am and was quickly destroyed. Unfortunately the distress and embaressment has stayed with me, and I have never dared to put anything into words since (until I came on here that is), It was originally wrote for my other half so he may get a clearer picture of how I felt and for the possibility of being viewed by a psychotherapist had i had the courage to go.

your quote from Bowlby is pretty much spot on (not at all offensive) from what I recall growing up. It was very hot and cold..one minute praise, the next total rejection...obviously this was when I was a bit older so I don;t know if it would have the same effect as when I was a baby. But even now I don't feel comfortable around them, as they can still go from one extreme to another...

another issue I have is that I really don't feel worthy or that the way I am deserves any kind of attention, given the trauma and distress a lot of other people go through, mine seems so pitiful and meaningless.My excuses for feeling bad really don't seem to weigh up to much...even though I don''t really know what they are.....but feeling like that makes me feel worse, as guilt and resent take over to make convince me I'm the worst person in the world....eurgh

right I will stop babbling on..I really don't mean to go on so much, but it really is the first chance I've had to get any of this out....

[twistedpingu]

just occured to me that it looks like I'm making an excuse to get out of just about every option you've given......sorry :(

[lexine]

hummm_mabbe: your posts are so helpful and amazing. I just had to thank you for posting and tell you that they really hit me in the heart. :bigarmhug[1]:

[walker]

another issue I have is that I really don't feel worthy or that the way I am deserves any kind of attention, given the trauma and distress a lot of other people go through, mine seems so pitiful and meaningless.My excuses for feeling bad really don't seem to weigh up to much...even though I don''t really know what they are.....but feeling like that makes me feel worse, as guilt and resent take over to make convince me I'm the worst person in the world....eurgh

yes yes yes - know that one SO well

many of us are running in the same race - trying to be the worst person - believe me you are NOT alone in this

discovering this in your 20's is good

try to get help now

xx

[hummm_mabbe]

just occured to me that it looks like I'm making an excuse to get out of just about every option you've given......sorry

Lol dont worry - if it were as simple as I made out then PD's wouldnt last as long as they do!

I had hoped that with the Bowlby stuff you would have sen that you do not have to have suffered obvious abuse to have a PD. Dont call yourself a liar just because you were not battered or bruised, or the daughter of an evil alcoholic, or suffered terrible things. A subtle, chronic lack of something is just as damaging - but far less noticeable - as physical abuse. Do not put yourself down.

Secondly, its common - actually, USUAL - to identify with multiple disorders and have traits from each. This is no barrier at all - its just another indicator that the present system of diagnosis doesnt work very well - but thats for another debate. Everyne 'deals' in their own way and you WILL see yourself in many diagnoses. I see myself in paranoid, schizoid, narcissistic, borderline. Look at peoples dx's here - many will have multiple tags.

Those are just options, things to play with. Time and new situations sometimes lets us look at options that wouldnt have worked in the past - at least you have thoughts for the future. With the writing, its only to tell the therapist whats bothering you. You write it once, and hand him the whole sheet, or maybe even type it and stick it on a memory stick? Then you can keep that on you at all times. Memoery sticks come pasword protected too And if your parents are going thru your things and invading your priavcy, then HELOOOOO there is a HUGE "thing that parents totally shouldnt be doing" RIGHT THERE

There is always a way, its just sometimes the emotions are so big that we have to have a big fight with them before any progress can be made. You are right at the beginning of your recovery and nothing comes easy at all. Getting better truly is the proverbial snowball. At first it like nudging along this sad pathetic little twizzle of melty snow, shit and twigs. But after a while, once the hard bits are done, more comes more easily.

The stuff you have written above is not insurmountable - there are ways of writing that your paremts wont find, and there are ways of figuring out how to affprd therapy. I have debt in 5 figures - student loan. But I find a way because its about my life - my happiness. Sometimes we find reasons not to do things, and sometimes there are deeper reasons that stop us too. What else, other than debt, might be holding you back?

Anyways, Im not here to make you do anything! Walker will tell you I am a bit of an agent provocateur - I kinna do the pokey pokey stick "hey guys! get up and do stuff!" deal, Mr Motivator bla bla. But im cuddly too so if I get a bit much just say "nooo Im feeling mopey, leave me alone " and I will only cry a bit

Right at the start, all any of us craves is simple relief - relief from pain, a chink of light. Stuff like wodges of info etc tends to bounce off because the pain is so immediate, but later we come back to the complex issues. The catch 22 is that to get the relief, we need to take a step first, and writing on a forum will never give you that. You will just feel stuck and nothing will touch you. Things will happen eventually, though I cant tell you anything other than "you need to make them happen at first" - you have to be like the injured explorer who hauls himself with a broken leg through the snow to safety, where he can get treated. There are few St Bernards in the world of BPD, and unfortunately you wont find one that can give you a shot of doggie whiskey down a broadband cable ... but once you have an ally in reality to help you along, the journey doesnt feel so lonely. Having said that, there are people at this site to talk to, there is a helpline, there is chat, so perhaps I am getting ahead of myself ...

The biggest courage is needed at the start - to make that beginning. The question is - how are you going to do it? Theres always a way, but right now fear is whats keeping you stuck, and courage is the only way out. Well, that and a little cheating with the grey cells, like with memory sticks and stuff There are no mind readers in the Health Industry - and thats the first thing you need to address. Either say all the things that bother you, or write all the things that bother you. You have already done that ehere - you could even copy paste your original post and show them that! All the info is there, plus more that maybe you cant yet say, you know what they are. Maybe try the NHS route. Book a docs appt for 4pm one day, then go to the library at 10am (or however long you need) and begin writing it all out where no one can bother you. Take the paper along at 4pm. Let her keep it, destroy it, whatever. All it needs to be is a list of symptoms and how long you had them, and what they cause in your life. Mum and Dad dont have to know a thing If you work or are at college, take a day off. If you keep finding small reasons why you cannot do these things, then you need to ask an honest question - are you being truthful with yourself about the reasons you 'can't' do it? Are you perhaps creating obstacles so that you dont have to face something altogether mroe frightening?

Another thing that can keep us stuck is that we feel so pushed out by the world that ASKING it for something feels almost insulting. We want it to come to us and say "im sorry - will you come back in the warm?". We can end up hoping for something that, even if it happened, we may not even notice it, or if we do, we will turn it into its nightmare opposite. We cant wait for the world to show us that hand because we are just as liable to bite it.

PD's make us grow up thinking we must do everything for ourselves, emotionally speaking. (From the Bowlby stuff, Im sure you can see why). We find it very hard to take advice from others because we have learned that others do not know how we feel, and others may be useless or even damaging. The feeling is "I must figure this all out myself" and we begin the process from scratch. We miss the fact that there is a HUGE AMOUNT of answers already out there. People that try t help may just look like more pushy parents, or bossy teachers to you. You may feel bullied rather than helped. Again this is part of the past, and wanting to figure it all out alone is actually part of the probkem. If we cannot let people in to help us, we cannot let people in FULLSTOP. Letting people help, show they care, and show your vulnerbaility - that is how real relationships happen. BPD is the ultimate vicious circle that stops us ever seeing that.

[hummm_mabbe]

hummm_mabbe: your posts are so helpful and amazing. I just had to thank you for posting and tell you that they really hit me in the heart.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee so im not a poophead? I kinna thought I was a poophead, with a yabbery mouth, yanno, say too much know-it-all lalalala compulsive information spouter when peeps just need hugs kinna annoying internet guy etc

Thank you for nice words, I feel less of a poophead

:hug2:

[walker]

sorry cant talk

for tp

for ross

[ann51]

Ditto what Lexine said, hmmm mabbe.

[hummm_mabbe]

Ditto what Lexine said, hmmm mabbe.

Hurray! Im not a poophead then

Thank you ^_^

[twistedpingu]

thanks walker, it is nice to know I'm not the only one who feels like it *hug*

[twistedpingu]

*sigh* thanks for yet another fantastic post hm....how I'm managing not to cry after reading it I'll never know..it all makes so much sense!..erm, anyway, i'm not gonna say much cos I you said 'feeling a bit mopey'..and your probably sick of me whining heh

a couple of things really stuck out....you saying that i could just be coming up with excuses to avoid getting help - i could reel off a whole list of reasons that I've used to convince myself out of it....although the debt is a huge problem....I probably am just trying to hide behind something for fear of what I might find out......I kinda think if I can't talk to anyone else, how the hell will I talk to someone I don't know...and they'll probably think I'm like this for nothing :/

the other thing was the last paragraph...it does seem impossible to take anyones advice, as I just feel like they are butting in and don't really understand...I hsve always had the belief that I got myself into this, i have to get back out of it by myself as well...

anyway,i am gonna go read up on bowlby now....if I can rebrand myself as not being a fraud and pathetic that would be great!

oh and in agreement with everyone else, your definately not a poophead, but a wonderful fountain of wisdom and knowledge!

[hummm_mabbe]

*sigh* thanks for yet another fantastic post hm....how I'm managing not to cry after reading it I'll never know..it all makes so much sense!..erm, anyway, i'm not gonna say much cos I you said 'feeling a bit mopey'..and your probably sick of me whining heh

a couple of things really stuck out....you saying that i could just be coming up with excuses to avoid getting help - i could reel off a whole list of reasons that I've used to convince myself out of it....although the debt is a huge problem....I probably am just trying to hide behind something for fear of what I might find out......I kinda think if I can't talk to anyone else, how the hell will I talk to someone I don't know...and they'll probably think I'm like this for nothing :/

the other thing was the last paragraph...it does seem impossible to take anyones advice, as I just feel like they are butting in and don't really understand...I hsve always had the belief that I got myself into this, i have to get back out of it by myself as well...

anyway,i am gonna go read up on bowlby now....if I can rebrand myself as not being a fraud and pathetic that would be great!

oh and in agreement with everyone else, your definately not a poophead, but a wonderful fountain of wisdom and knowledge!

No way am I sick of anything - you are in the same place as I have been, and sometoimes revisit. You arent whining - you are just on the first rung of the ladder, and finally expressing something that you have been forced not to express, even though it is your right as a human being, perhaps all your life. Its where we all begin - realising that we have been cut off from a world for all of time that we didnt even know existed - though it was in front of us the whole time. Sorry if it seemed I was saying that with the mopey comment - what I meant to say was "tell me to shut up if Im being an insensitive prat"

We dont get to where we are now without good reason. We may well hide behind things, but that is nothing to criticise - its what we have had to do to survive. I said this to Walker the other day - we are no more responsible for how we are now than a Porsche is for being a car - its what we have been made to be, become because it was the only, and best, choice open to us. Underneath we wanted love, holding, understanding. To feel good, to feel accepted and wanted. To know that who we are was important to someone. These are all GOOD motives and GOOD things. Life may have lead us down a path where we feel like we are doing BAD - but we are doing it in the name of needing something whole, something special. We may never have had that before. We are right now, exactly where we should BE - all present and correct. The bad, the good. And even the bad has underneath that DESIRE for the good - the desire of being loved.

You may find that telling someone you DONT know so well is actually easier than someone you do - after all, a therapist wasnt part of the system that created you, or the ongoing system that you have formed around you. If you like, a therapist is 'uncontaminated' by the untoward influences that have shaped the pain you are currently in. If you are scared of what you might find - does that not suggest that there is something to be feared? If there is something to be feared, who put it there? No one chooses to feel ashamed, guilty and scared. Its a place we end up because we are given no other option. WHO was it that denied us the other options? How did they deny us it? Is what we are afraid of the guilt of accusing someone? The feeling that, the moment we open our mouths, someone will say "thats not how it happened - you're just making it up. How could you be so CRUEL - after all I sacrificed for you? After all I have suffered and given in your name? You're being too sensitive. You;re being irrational. Thats not how it happened or how it is at all". Perhaps we fear that sense of being shut away, ignored, pushed down, silenced, controlled. Perhaps we fear the anger that that sensation also brings. And if we fear our anger, then our loop is complete. We have a todal wave os anger that is not allowed to be freed, and the cycle happens in the blink of an eye. No sooner have we thought about telling our story than we have been battered down and silenced - all within our own minds. And we FEEL IT - right in out chests, our stomachs and out backs. Like someone stuffing a bung right down into our throats and down inside. "What you say is meaningless - shut up. What you thought you saw and felt is wrong - and I am going to tell you how it really was. If you dont agree - I will punish you, humiliate you. What makes you think you have any right to say what you think? No one wants to hear you. Go back to your room. Go back in your hole. Be a good girl, keep making me feel good. Do what I need you to - and I need you to be quiet, be nice, not bring me down, not tell me how bad you feel - because when you do that, I have to feel bad and I dont deserve to feel bad. If you feel bad then its your own fault - you caused it, you lack moral fibre, youre an attention seeker, a drama queen - and my needs are real and more important than yours".

That sensation that no one can understand you - makes TOTAL SENSE. Because no one has ever tried. You have been expected to bury all that you are - how could you have learned that others CAN understand you, when no one ever tried? Faced with destruction or taking some action, a little girl has to DO something. She has to find a way to deal with this, in a way that doesnt bother anyone - because when she bothers them, bad things happen. She feels lonely, not wanted, ignored. But her attempts arent working, she keeps suffering. her anger keeps leaking out, and when it does - oh no - she gets punished again. She wants to feel good - both because then she wont have to hurt, and bceuase maybe then, when shes good, and perfect, she will be acceptable, wanted, welcomed. She cant let other people in because they might punish her. They might not understand and then send her back to that room of telling her who she is ans should be. Keeping people out HAS to be done because otherwise its like picking at a wound - it just hurts all the more. But neither does the wound ever heal.

These cycles have ENORMOUS power, they work just beneath our consciousness. They are all pervasive and they are insidisous. They stay within us because we need them - because they are a surrogate, a lifering for something that we never had but need more than food, water, air and life itself. Our bodies scream at us with anxiety, depression, emptiness, anger, dissociation - its the language the body uses to tell us that SOMETHING IS MISSING - and the current methods are not working. My surrogate was achievement, admiration, sex and money. i was convinced that as soon as I was Mr Charisma, Mr Dude that all the girls want, getting laid, getting the money, at the top of the company - then I would be safe. Then I would be loved. Then I could stop DRIVING myself into the ground. But it was a surrogate - it was never going to give me the true acceptance and understanding I really needed because it was all CONDITIONAL. It was a cycle that would forever yield unhappiness, emptiness. Before I could get to my own truth, I had to wade through everyone elses OPINION. I was a 'typical male bastard wanting to fuck everything' - this made me feel evil, black, vile. But what i wanted was the FEELING of softness, love. The only way I had that let me feel that was sex - because every other way was unacceptable, to express my feelings as they really were, to need love, to show vulnerability - were all BANNED. People told me I was 'apprval addicted' or 'status seeking' and craved power. I felt like an asshole. But what I actually wanted was to finally stop feeling buried, ignored and humiliated - to feel accpeted for who I was. To feel SAFE AND PROTECTED like I never was. They were surrogates and many people had their own (self-based) take on what these things said about me, and they made me feel more and more evil. But deep inside I knew that there was something much simpler, more core and WHOLE. It took a lot of really LISTENING to my feelings to find out - what was I REALLY wanting? What was really driving me so hard? I already had the answer - it was all the things that I had not got, at the time I should have recieved them. To be heard. To be accepted. To feel my emotions were wanted. To feel I was a real human being, and not an object onto which others projected their desires, expectations and buried hurt and anger. My surrogates HURT me, though at the time I would have bitten your arm off had you suggested it. After all, how can you ask someone to give up (what they see as) love, safety and acceptance? Its like asking someone not to breathe.

Therapy is the one unique way that these cycles, self-fulfilling prophecies and loops can be slowly picked apart and some theraPIES and therapISTS are much better than others. Unfairly, this is another hurdle that we may have to overcome. At first you WONT trust a therapist. At first you WONT let a therapist in. You may get angry at them, you may act completely shallow with them. You may spend entire sessions talking abut the weather, or intellectualising your problems to the point where you never have to feel anything. You may avoid, duck, hide. You may test, manipulate and fear. ALL of the very deepest of things that are in you will surface - and that is why therapy takes TIME.

Therapy can be seen like the life of a prisoner who has been released after 50 years in jail. He has become institutionalised. he doesnt know that he can eat when he wants, pee when he wants. He doesnt know that people live in a free way - he only knows rules, punishments, pain and fear. It can take him YEARS to begin to adjust because everything in him has been hardwired for survival for so long. Even though someone may tell him "its ok to go take a shower when you like", he may still have that sense of not being allowed, or of being afraid. He has ben conitioned, and it takes a long time to undo that conditioning. But it can be done, with care, love and acceptance. Accepting that right now, this is how he is. Its not 'wrong', its not his fault, Its just the product of the system he was in. The difference is, your 'crime' was getting born. You were inoocent, frail and in need of being created, as a person, by those who should have loved you as you needed. Now you are at the gate of the prison, and the scary light of the free world is before you. And it makes TOTAL SENSE that despite that fact that those who have never been inside that prison think you should be happy, in fact you feel frightened, stuck and like a small child. Therapy is what will take you by the hand, hold you and make that child feel loved, important and wanted again.

With the Bowlby stuff, its hard to get any real meat online - the books are the bestey way to really understand yourself See if you can buy used on amazon, they may be like 2 quid on there.

[twistedpingu]

aww nooo thats not how I took it...insensitive prat..i think not. why on earth would I think that? I like the fact your being very upfront and to the point...

i see where your coming from about we are who we are meant to be..but being who I am, I can't help but to blame myself...

The feeling that, the moment we open our mouths, someone will say "thats not how it happened - you're just making it up. How could you be so CRUEL - after all I sacrificed for you? After all I have suffered and given in your name? You're being too sensitive. You;re being irrational. Thats not how it happened or how it is at all"

gotta admit this happened to quite recently....my mum is far from stable and one night I just totally erupted with pent up anger....came out with things I'd never dare say to her about when I was younger and how I felt neglected...anyway keeping it short...pretty much ended up with me feeling like a total bitch for even thinking she could do anything bad and I'd invented these memories in my head because they couldn't possibly be true....the one and only time I'd tried to get some release and it was all thrown back in my face :/

so yeah, i think your probably right..talking to a stranger certainly does have its advantages....just gotta bring myself to do it....meh

right I'm off to browse amazon.....

[hummm_mabbe]

aww nooo thats not how I took it...insensitive prat..i think not. why on earth would I think that? I like the fact your being very upfront and to the point...

i see where your coming from about we are who we are meant to be..but being who I am, I can't help but to blame myself...

The feeling that, the moment we open our mouths, someone will say "thats not how it happened - you're just making it up. How could you be so CRUEL - after all I sacrificed for you? After all I have suffered and given in your name? You're being too sensitive. You;re being irrational. Thats not how it happened or how it is at all"

gotta admit this happened to quite recently....my mum is far from stable and one night I just totally erupted with pent up anger....came out with things I'd never dare say to her about when I was younger and how I felt neglected...anyway keeping it short...pretty much ended up with me feeling like a total bitch for even thinking she could do anything bad and I'd invented these memories in my head because they couldn't possibly be true....the one and only time I'd tried to get some release and it was all thrown back in my face :/

so yeah, i think your probably right..talking to a stranger certainly does have its advantages....just gotta bring myself to do it....meh

right I'm off to browse amazon.....

Well, there we go. You did something brave, you did something to finally try to make yourself heard. I belive that we all have inside us something that tries, always, to do good, and to want only good things. That is what came out in you there, something pure. What you got was ... well you have said it yourself. If this was the chronic way of things, what do you suppose that does to the heart of a little girl - a heart that is only pure, only wants good things. To be loved and to love?

And you will blame yourself, for quite a while. You can see why - "ended up with me feeling like a total bitch for even thinking she could do anything bad and I'd invented these memories in my head because they couldn't possibly be true". You have been made to belive that it always WAS your fault, by the peple you needed the most. The people whose opinion could NEVER be wrong - because they were your world.

Do you see that your mum had another choice? As a MOTHER, who is meant to care deeply about all her daughter feels - she could have said "Do you really feel that way? It is terrible that you do, and that hurts me as well. I can see how angry you are, so this cannot have arisen for no reason - I want to understand why you feel this way. It may upset me, BUT I UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO YOU, and I will discuss it whether it hurts or not. Our relationship is more important to me than hiding from the truth"

I dont know if you saw it because I was editing ... I added a little bit to my last post about how recovery is like coming out of prison. May help a bit to understand stuff.

[hummm_mabbe]

Actually I just had a flash of inspiration.

Bowlby writes like no oither researcher I have ever read - he speaks in a human way, and is often even funny. But a lot of it can be technical. If you feel that this may be the case (to get the really jucy, important bits meant going through the whole thing) then check out this bookie instead Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt. Its got a SUPER CUTE baby on the front, and covers somuch stuff in the one volume, including a lot of the Bowlby stuff.

For me reading this book put a huge amount of my past in context - but the Bowlby books really filled in the concrete.

Ross