So Very Very Angry

[mrD]

Joysmelody

you sound just like my mum, always has to be right, and she's half the reason i'm like iam, being rigid in your beliefs and perceptions is what keeps us all stuck, you might not mean it but it sounds like your preaching a gospel...i can hear what your saying, but think you have to take individuals as individuals, were all different, so no matter what label you use, aint none of us thats perfect, or ever gone be able to give a kid the 'perfect' upbringing weather at school or home...we can all just do our best, and i think to say that someone with bpd shouldn't be working with kids, is partly ignorance on your part, and please dont take that as an attack...That just seems to general to me, as sun says, people with bpd are mostly very sensitive people, and maybe its just me, but seem to relate to kids, same as animales, better than with adults, so surely rapport is healthy...i had no rapport with my teachers, except one and he treated us like we wanted to be treated, as individuals...

[drew]

well reading this i know who i put in a padded cell and throw the key away

and buy the way loopy was posting seeking support not some negative crap

and yes i also do belve that people who have issues they cant leave at home should nt work with the vunerable

and i am going to work in the menatl health perhaps i should nt do that cause i might cause them problems

well all i can say to that is i have bpd i am not a fucking looney

[sundries]

Dixie I told you in chat last night that if you expressed annoyance and stood up for yourself joysmelody would smugly say 'see look you are angry so how can you look after children' (though joys went even further and used sarcasm). people like her never realise that you would be doing children in your care a disservice if you didnt model healthy anger and taught them to put up with insults and act like a doormat.

personally Im glad teachers dont rank 'grades' as thier top priority in teaching.

Anyone with any knowledge of teaching children will know that self esteem comes first and promoting self esteem involves enabling the child to fulfil thier full potential academically and reach a standard which will see them successfully through life. Relations and social skills (ie socialisation) are also far more important than 'grades', and teaching these are necessary to give the child the best chance in life. Study after study shows that social skills are more important for success and happiness in life than academic grades. It would be a very very narrow view of education to think 'academics' was the most important aspect, there are many more important things a child needs before 'academics' are made a measure of that childs success.

Interestingly many studies also show that people dx with borderline personality disorder often have a very high level of social skills, certainly high enough to fulfill thier role in education - it is up to the parents to model more intimate relationships.

Teachers cant win. If they concentrate on grades parents complain that it lowers the self esteem of the students who are less capable academically, thus giving them a bad start in life. If teachers dont focus on grades they are told they are trying to form a childs character rather than concentrate on academics so they are interfering in the parents job. The fact is there are genetic differences in intelligence and academic ability and with the best will in the world and the best skills and the best health a teacher is not going to be able to have all her pupils performing to the same standard.

I wonder how children will fare if they get the message 'if you ever have any difficulties you will never be healthy enough to succesfully work with children, unless you are perfect you should be kept away from vulnerable people incase you 'taint' them' I also wonder what message children will get if they are told they are so weak and incompetent that they will be tainted if they come in contact with anyone who isnt perfect and I wonder how damaging it will be to them to come to the conclusion they have to be perfect and are 'unfit' if they arent.

It seems its not just teachers who can never get it right with children, but any adults. If they have education and special skills and training in working with children, then they 'only have a piece of paper' and know nothing, if they dont have a diploma then they dont know anything and have no right to raise children. I wonder what this holy grail of 'healthy' is, since it appears there is no measurement.

The fact is all the population of Britain have been to school. The fact is the majority of the population of Britain have never had and never will have any psychaitric problems whatsoever. Seems to me the education system is hardly that influential in traumatising children, and comes nowhere near being the demonic force it seems to be being made out to be.

And it is also a fact that much of failure in the education system is due to the results of poor parenting, as with the best will in the world teachers cannot make up for deficits in parenting which mean children arrive at school in a terrile state. A lot of the failure also has to do with the influx of pupils who have no english language skills. And even more of the failure is to do with Labours reluctance to stream classes or have selective schools so people of similar abilities are in each class so that the differentiation the teacher has to cope with doesnt makes it totally impossible to give the best quality of teaching to each student.

[Fairy]

Does a diploma on the wall of a shrink make them able and capable of understanding, empathizing or healing your BPD? Does an award or badge automatically give someone the aptitude to choose rightly, feel well or love unconditionally? I mean really. This logic is just absurd.

I quite agree. By that token, we can not say everyone with BPD is not capable or suitable to care for children. No one is defined by their diagnosis nor their qualification.

Fairy xxx

[yorkiegal73]

I used to look after children full time as a favour to their mother, so she could go out and work. I wasn't very good at it. I was too quick to lose my temper and would then overcompensate by buying them treats. I never physically hurt them or shouted at them but I'm sure my moods must have confused them. At my worst, I was once suspicious that a little boy in my care was a devil. It was difficult to say no to his mother because i couldn't really explain to her why i didn't want to be around him anymore. I don't know if that was down to the bpd or not. But I've seen a lot of mothers lose it with their kids in supermarkets and I doubt they all have the bpd label.

I decided never to have kids because I know that, I, personally, would be a bad mother. On the practical side of things, I can't even keep the house clean, and emotionally I tend to be very cold towards kids, and I know how much that hurts from my own mum.

As someone who grew up with abuse, I am ultra sensitive towards how parents / teachers treat the children under their care, and am always on the look out for a potential abuser. I know I probably go too far with that.

I think that joysmelody has a point in that people who are generally unable to control their emotions should not be around kids, but many people here are bpd but are also on the road to recovery. They are able to recognise their symptoms and control them. I'm not in that place yet so it would be absolutely wrong for me to be a caregiver. People who have recovered from mental illness probably have even more to offer in the workplace, and will probably be more likely to recognise problems with the kids than someone who hasn't experienced it.

But I'll be honest with you. If I was a mother and was interviewing prospective nanny's, I wouldn't go with the one with the mental illness (whatever type it was). And yes that would be discrimination, but we all know everyone discriminates.

Loopyfruit, I'm sorry your tutor had such a bad reaction. I guess she's just ignorant of bpd and you have an opportunity here to educate her.

edit: have read this back and am aware i'm rambling a bit. i do think that there is more to mental health than a label and we are all different, so it's wrong to say that one particular label should mean everyone with it is unable to care for children.

[sunshine_bear]

You talk a lot of Bull shit Joy. I can't say much more then this at this moment in time, I am slightly to annoyed. And I don't think the 'evidence' you submitted is all that good to be perfectly honest.

So you have a huge thing with people with mental health problems working with children, what about them with children? Or us that are planning a family? My fiance and I are planning a family for next year by your rules it appears becaue we both have mental health problems we shouldn't because we would abuse our children I am frankly feeling physcially sick about that. I raised my brother since he was 3, I know have a gorgous 16 year old brother who is very happy, healthy, intelligent and a very very good and honest person. But I had mental health problems so by your analysis he shouldn't be happy and healthy he should be abused and slitting his wrists. I am trying to prove to you that you are very closed minded.

I am sorry but if you have issues surrounding your childhood and the care you received then please post in a separate topic. You have completely hijacked a thread meant for support and understanding.

I want you to tell me something Joy, why are you here on the forum? Do you have mental health issues? What is your role here just to cause trouble and upset?

You can't tar everyone with the same brush Joy, its unfair and discriminatory. I am appalled and disgusted by this blatant hijacking of the post.

Natalie

[Fairy]

I agree, we should be mindful of the person who started this topic seeking support, trying to remain on topic. Also it is important for us all to be mindful of each others feelings and respectful to everyone. We are all here for support.

Fairy xxx

[joysmelody]

Sorry you have *mum* issues.

I think that goes with the *territory* of BPD. Longtime.

j

Joysmelody

you sound just like my mum, always has to be right, and she's half the reason i'm like iam, being rigid in your beliefs and perceptions is what keeps us all stuck, you might not mean it but it sounds like your preaching a gospel...i can hear what your saying, but think you have to take individuals as individuals, were all different, so no matter what label you use, aint none of us thats perfect, or ever gone be able to give a kid the 'perfect' upbringing weather at school or home...we can all just do our best, and i think to say that someone with bpd shouldn't be working with kids, is partly ignorance on your part, and please dont take that as an attack...That just seems to general to me, as sun says, people with bpd are mostly very sensitive people, and maybe its just me, but seem to relate to kids, same as animales, better than with adults, so surely rapport is healthy...i had no rapport with my teachers, except one and he treated us like we wanted to be treated, as individuals...

[sunshine_bear]

Like I say you are very closed minded. You have just proved my point. I love how you bypass posts that point out the flaws in your statements.

Just proves our points really doesn't it?

I will say it again Joy, if you need help or support please post in a different topic and I for one as I know many others will give you the support and try to help anyway we can.

Natalie

[masterdebater]

May I suggest, 'Joy', you spend less time accusing people you don't even know of being child abusers.Instead invest some serious energy researching 'Black and White Thinking'..as you are clearly triggered by this post and your illness is getting the better of you at this point.

Your rant suggests that you are in the very early stages of recovery,your emotions are interfering with your cognitive abilities and the hateful vomit you are splashing over other members here should not detract others from pursuing their goals, but hopefully it will illustrate to them why therapy is so important.

People with BPD, who are in recovery/recovered,have so much to offer others,in many ways.

It is true for every human being on this planet that 'You Can't Give Away What You Don't Have'. But anybody who has suffered,struggled, fought to overcome and are recovering/recovered are often in a better position to understand others and assist them with their issues than those who have gained all their insights from the pages of a book.

They should be commended for their desire to support and care for others, not condemned.

I am a professional artist who works with both children and women 'at risk' and/or 'disadvantaged'.I run womens groups, where I conduct art classes,cooking classes and where the women can come and vent without being judged or scorned.They can and do talk to me about many things they feel they are unable to discuss with anybody else, because they know I've 'been there'.I am very open about my disorder,my struggles past and present.They see that I have not only survived but that I have managed to be successful in numerous and valuable ways. This helps gives them hope and the confidence to forge ahead.

I also work with children who are 'school rejecters', kids who are acting out at school due to emotional issues stemming mainly from problems at home. Art Therapy sessions where they are able to express their frustrations,fears,anger,pain in a positive and rewarding way, as opposed to fighting or resorting to other harmful activities such as drug use or engaging in inappropriate sexual activity.

Through this they are often able to open up to me in ways that they are unable or unwilling to open up with others,and often this relieves them of the initial burden. I am then able to communicate key issues and pertinent information to professionals,consellors,psychologists,welfare agents who will assist the child further.

I am not a 'qualified' therapist.There is no 'diploma' pinned to my wall.A' piece of paper' meant nothing to me nor my employers.

I originally volunteered as an art teacher with the womens group,which consisted of mainly aboriginal women and women who were disadvantaged/struggling, one way or the other. Within a week I was offered a paid position,then I was made co-ordinator.After several years I offered to volunteer with children.An Alternative Learning Program was being implemented to assist the children I've described, and they were seeking professionals willing to volunteer their time. I went to a meeting with the people overseeing the program and after being interviewed I was offered a paid position. Not necessarily for my artistic skills but for the empathy,compassion and understanding I revealed of the issues involved.

I was even asked if I would be willing to assist a 'qualified' psychologist involved in the program,by teaching her some art practices and demonstrating how I apply it all with the 'therapy'.She has asked to sit in on my sessions so she can implement some of my techniques into her sessions.

As I said, I was not offered any of this because I waved a 'piece of paper' in their faces.

I had a shit childhood.I left home at 14, was homeless from 16 to 21. Had my sister commit suicide when I was 18. Worked as a prostitute from the age of 17 to 21. Was drug addicted and alcohol dependant. Raped too many times to count.Had my daughter taken from me when I was 25,where she was placed with her 'biological' father- who had a convicted child molester living with him, fought the government for 3 years to get her back, which I did. Have been suicidal,(especially following my sisters suicide) and engaged in various forms of self harm and abuse.Have been in psych wards at least 8 times, and emergency wards quite a few times, including the two times my body shut down and I was on 'breathing machines' because I had overdosed 'accidentally' on pills and alcohol and wasn't breathing (6-8 hours).

So no, during these times I wasn't a help to anybody-especially myself.

But then approx 7 years ago I got into serious therapy. I was mad but far from stupid and I was able to take it on board and begin unravelling the knots.CBT,DBT,countless hours of reading,research and prayer.I was able to get my BPD under control.I got off the marijuana,have remained drug and alcohol free.I still have my ups and downs, but I am 1000% better than where I was before, and doing better than alot of others who are not afflicted with a 'disorder'.My husband who is a recovering alcoholic/addict (clean and sober 18 years) was and is an enormous support.Oh,and a qualified teacher (16 years).He works with troubled indigenous kids and is much respected and liked by his students and fellow teachers.

My long winded point is,Joy,you obviously are not suited to working with kids.At least not yet.You'd best concerntrate on working on yourself, because you have a long way to go.

But I have worked bloodNot everything abouy hard at recovery and my clients respect and appreciate me,as do my employers. I don't believe everything about BPD is terrible(I did have to learn to use some of my gifts for good and not evil,lol )I believe there are many other members here who are intelligent,compassionate and talented , who are well on their way to recovery and are obviously working hard at it-and still are able to find it in their hearts to assist others in whatever way they can. The fact that you are not one of them,Joy, well -I feel sorry for you. I hope you get better, I really do. I know what it's like to be full of spite,resentments,anger and pain. Doesn't give you the right though to transfer your own current shitty disposition and bleak outlook on life onto others.

[joysmelody]

What I read in your lengthy and wordy post, is you're hiding your head is some kind of peverbial convenient hole of denial where children aren't failing miserably, parents aren't fumbling along in their dysfunctionality and teachers aren't the mediocre hired help trained to train children en masse with erroneous textbooks as their guides with bad behavior ruling the schools, violence in and out of the classrooms, the learning that matters goes on in the shcoolyards and in the bathrooms. The educational system is a joke. A cruel one on the backs of children and it's people like you who hide their heads and kvell about the *merits* of these instittutions just perpetuate and deepen the problems with their glazed over stances of *everything is fine.* Fuck that. And fuck that BS realtiy you want other people to join you in believing. I'm watching the news with Columbine shootings, teachers raping and shootouts in Finland. I'm keeping my fingers on the pulse of the children killing themselves because of bullying, unfair grades and the pervasive cruelty that exists in peer groups and the impotency of faculty to overcome their own fragile selves and just do what they're paid to do - EDUCATE. Seems to be too much to ask these days.

I think you need to re-read my post about people who have unHEALED issues with anger, self-control, depression, self-hate and any other trait including unpredictability and inconsistency which are KEY to being a quality teacher/caretaker. People with Borderdeline Personality Disorder have issues. Major ones. Ones that children need not be subjected to. And anyone who would intentionally put a child in potential harm - vicariously through ROOTING for the BPD educator or directly via *it's my job* - needs to be held DIRECTLY responsible for any negative consequences resulting from their interaction with the child. And how is anyone with a mental illness able to work with children in the educational system at all? Are there no admission criteria for teachers? No background checks? Health records of a teacher need to be made available to administration.

The sad testimony about those that work in the educational system today is that anyone with a passable grade average can call themselves a *teacher*. Forget their health, their demeanor, their history. That people with perversions, damaged souls and minds, ulterior motives, - anything and everything under the sun BUT instructing children are forming impressionable minds. All one has to for *proof* is look at the children themselves - today and in 10 years down the line. Go seek out for yourself the studies done on test results - reading comprehension, social and life skills, math aptitude - a joke. Black and white thinking? Oh yes. Black - the system is dysfunction and white - look to blind leading the blind.

The teachers can't teach, the children can't learn, the parents can't parent and those clucking their tongues hide their heads in the sand mumbling *how dare you speak out* on these issues. And you have *rigid* thinking. *Black and white* thinking. Whatever. Totally whatever. In one ear and out the other. I'm counting the bodies right now. I'm watching the stats and I know the score about how ultimately it's always the bottom line. And it ain't EVER about the truth.

j

May I suggest, 'Joy', you spend less time accusing people you don't even know of being child abusers.Instead invest some serious energy researching 'Black and White Thinking'..as you are clearly triggered by this post and your illness is getting the better of you at this point.

Your rant suggests that you are in the very early stages of recovery,your emotions are interfering with your cognitive abilities and the hateful vomit you are splashing over other members here should not detract others from pursuing their goals, but hopefully it will illustrate to them why therapy is so important.

People with BPD, who are in recovery/recovered,have so much to offer others,in many ways.

It is true for every human being on this planet that 'You Can't Give Away What You Don't Have'. But anybody who has suffered,struggled, fought to overcome and are recovering/recovered are often in a better position to understand others and assist them with their issues than those who have gained all their insights from the pages of a book.

They should be commended for their desire to support and care for others, not condemned.

I am a professional artist who works with both children and women 'at risk' and/or 'disadvantaged'.I run womens groups, where I conduct art classes,cooking classes and where the women can come and vent without being judged or scorned.They can and do talk to me about many things they feel they are unable to discuss with anybody else, because they know I've 'been there'.I am very open about my disorder,my struggles past and present.They see that I have not only survived but that I have managed to be successful in numerous and valuable ways. This helps gives them hope and the confidence to forge ahead.

I also work with children who are 'school rejecters', kids who are acting out at school due to emotional issues stemming mainly from problems at home. Art Therapy sessions where they are able to express their frustrations,fears,anger,pain in a positive and rewarding way, as opposed to fighting or resorting to other harmful activities such as drug use or engaging in inappropriate sexual activity.

Through this they are often able to open up to me in ways that they are unable or unwilling to open up with others,and often this relieves them of the initial burden. I am then able to communicate key issues and pertinent information to professionals,consellors,psychologists,welfare agents who will assist the child further.

I am not a 'qualified' therapist.There is no 'diploma' pinned to my wall.A' piece of paper' meant nothing to me nor my employers.

I originally volunteered as an art teacher with the womens group,which consisted of mainly aboriginal women and women who were disadvantaged/struggling, one way or the other. Within a week I was offered a paid position,then I was made co-ordinator.After several years I offered to volunteer with children.An Alternative Learning Program was being implemented to assist the children I've described, and they were seeking professionals willing to volunteer their time. I went to a meeting with the people overseeing the program and after being interviewed I was offered a paid position. Not necessarily for my artistic skills but for the empathy,compassion and understanding I revealed of the issues involved.

I was even asked if I would be willing to assist a 'qualified' psychologist involved in the program,by teaching her some art practices and demonstrating how I apply it all with the 'therapy'.She has asked to sit in on my sessions so she can implement some of my techniques into her sessions.

As I said, I was not offered any of this because I waved a 'piece of paper' in their faces.

I had a shit childhood.I left home at 14, was homeless from 16 to 21. Had my sister commit suicide when I was 18. Worked as a prostitute from the age of 17 to 21. Was drug addicted and alcohol dependant. Raped too many times to count.Had my daughter taken from me when I was 25,where she was placed with her 'biological' father- who had a convicted child molester living with him, fought the government for 3 years to get her back, which I did. Have been suicidal,(especially following my sisters suicide) and engaged in various forms of self harm and abuse.Have been in psych wards at least 8 times, and emergency wards quite a few times, including the two times my body shut down and I was on 'breathing machines' because I had overdosed 'accidentally' on pills and alcohol and wasn't breathing (6-8 hours).

So no, during these times I wasn't a help to anybody-especially myself.

But then approx 7 years ago I got into serious therapy. I was mad but far from stupid and I was able to take it on board and begin unravelling the knots.CBT,DBT,countless hours of reading,research and prayer.I was able to get my BPD under control.I got off the marijuana,have remained drug and alcohol free.I still have my ups and downs, but I am 1000% better than where I was before, and doing better than alot of others who are not afflicted with a 'disorder'.My husband who is a recovering alcoholic/addict (clean and sober 18 years) was and is an enormous support.Oh,and a qualified teacher (16 years).He works with troubled indigenous kids and is much respected and liked by his students and fellow teachers.

My long winded point is,Joy,you obviously are not suited to working with kids.At least not yet.You'd best concerntrate on working on yourself, because you have a long way to go.

But I have worked bloodNot everything abouy hard at recovery and my clients respect and appreciate me,as do my employers. I don't believe everything about BPD is terrible(I did have to learn to use some of my gifts for good and not evil,lol )I believe there are many other members here who are intelligent,compassionate and talented , who are well on their way to recovery and are obviously working hard at it-and still are able to find it in their hearts to assist others in whatever way they can. The fact that you are not one of them,Joy, well -I feel sorry for you. I hope you get better, I really do. I know what it's like to be full of spite,resentments,anger and pain. Doesn't give you the right though to transfer your own current shitty disposition and bleak outlook on life onto others.

[walker]

so where are all the perfect people then?

my school better watch out as I may be returning soon

perhaps I should publish a public health warning before I do

God help those poor poor children

but you never explain why you are on this crusade

[yorkiegal73]

I would agree that the education system is in something of a mess, but I'd put that down to too much political interference over the last couple of decades, rather than employing staff with mental health problems. Also a lack of support from parents, and a general lack of respect towards each other in the country as a whole.

Joy have you been hurt by a teacher in some way? I think it's important to try not to generalise.

[sundries]

What comes across in your post JM is that you are just utterly ignorant of mental health issues.

You have the most uninformed 'member of the public' conception.

If you feel so strongly about education, go and do an Msc in education and publish your own research papers on it instead of wasting your breath on a forum like here. Go and write articles for the tiems educational supplement or something and actually do something abou the thigns you are concerned about, rather than whining on some website.

[joysmelody]

There's a whole lot of territory between *perfect* and *dysfunctional*. Perfect is just another myth well deserving to be put to its timely rest. Forever. Perfect is the unattainable and probably one of the key reasons for more people killing themselves - slowly or via suicide than any other myth conceived by the *machine*. Work! Achieve! Compete! Be a 10! Be perfect. Perfect breasts, nose, mouth, ass and income. Have the perfect wife, house, kids and life. And it's all a lie.

All of it.

In as far as your own teaching children goes -it's a choice you have to make.

In as far as *crusades* and the power that feeds them - in my case maybe some day if I feel it's appropriate it'll be posted. As far as I can see now, it's irrelevant.

j

so where are all the perfect people then?

my school better watch out as I may be returning soon

perhaps I should publish a public health warning before I do

God help those poor poor children

but you never explain why you are on this crusade

[walker]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Fairy]

Could I please remind people to try and stay on topic. Perhaps someone would like to start a new thread if they wish to continue this discussion. I think we need to mindful of the person starting this thread and they support they are seeking.

Fairy xxx

[joysmelody]

Mental health *issues* is just such a laughable cliche'. I don't have a grasp of them? GREAT. This makes me happy. Blissfully so. I am free from the Jargon Game and Guess The Disorder! FACT: No one in the psychiatric field - has an INKLING on how to heal mental illness. Not a clue. But they play this jargon game where the rules are agreed upon, the tactics are accepted and the interaction is one of *consensus*. Consensus still hasn't healed anyone. What it has done is put people in drugged, defeated, defensive, disconnected stances - still hurting, still wondering and still wrapped up in the Jargon Game.

You can hold to whatever beliefs you feel are right for you - and I won't berate you for that. It's your right. Kindly do the same here. My beliefs are my own and my right to convey, express and give power to. You trying to stifle that reeks of control issues. So back off. Because I will just ignore you. I have no patience for pissing contests on a mental health forum.

I will give you and how much I that want to reveal - and if I don't - it's something called choice. Please note that you are in no way obligated to read my posts. Anyone here can feel free to skip them if they bother you.

j

What comes across in your post JM is that you are just utterly ignorant of mental health issues.

You have the most uninformed 'member of the public' conception.

If you feel so strongly about education, go and do an Msc in education and publish your own research papers on it instead of wasting your breath on a forum like here. Go and write articles for the tiems educational supplement or something and actually do something abou the thigns you are concerned about, rather than whining on some website.

[joysmelody]

So where do you teach?

j

so where are all the perfect people then?

my school better watch out as I may be returning soon

perhaps I should publish a public health warning before I do

God help those poor poor children

but you never explain why you are on this crusade

[joysmelody]

This should have been cited about 9 posts ago. Every time I think this issue has been put to rest, I see someone else putting their 2 cents into the irrelevant issues so I keep on replying to them. Maybe you can simply transfer the extraneous posts to another thread.

j

Could I please remind people to try and stay on topic. Perhaps someone would like to start a new thread if they wish to continue this discussion. I think we need to mindful of the person starting this thread and they support they are seeking.

Fairy xxx

[Joshua]

Members of my team are asking for this topic to be closed. Can we all bring this back together and accept sometimes we wont all agree or does it have to be the case that my team have to intervene?

[walker]

things hurt and walking away is sometimes too hard - please close it

[Joshua]

I think its important that we work through things. I spend much of my time encouraging my team to allow members to resolve their own issues. Mods only intervene when there is NO other alternative.

[walker]

in order to work things through

EVERYBODY has to have their ears and eyes open to what they are saying and doing to others

[sundries]

right,

so lets let joysmedley have last word as she clearly needs to...and then drop the thread and start another one for loopy.

the floor is open for you joy, have your say and dont feel ignored if none of us reply, since it seems you need to have last word and find it tiresome none of us are accomodating this.

Anyone want to discuss it further come and do so in chat so joys can have last word.

see ya