Please Just Hold Me In Your Hearts

[starryeyesee]

hey walker

sending you big hugs. being here and communicating with us is really important. i've read your posts and to me you seem really brave !you can post when you feel bad, i can only communicate when i feel good!!!

take care of yourself

i'm here for you

big hugs helen x

[walker]

im sorry but i just cant take any more love from all of you

i never tell you anything good

never bring a smile to your faces

i feed off your sympathy or empathy or whatever it is

and i hide away from goodness and joy

it is not my world - not somewhere i feel safe to exist

but i am using you all in my evil and twisted logic

I appologize

[Marchmadness]

Walker -

It is not evil and twisted, nor are you bad. Its called BPD. There are many

of us who have been where you are and have felt those feelings of needing

to know others care. It is like trying to fill a void that we suffered from when

we were children. Its ok, walker, it really is. Let yourself feel the connection

with the people here. Instead of telling yourself that you are bad, can you replace

that phrase with I am not bad, or I have things to work on, but that does not make

me bad. The more you tell yourself these negative things the harder it is to

move forward and for you to believe the good in you that others see. Give it a shot,

say something positive, and keep repeating it to yourself.

March

[walker]

sorry - no - it IS bad

that is simply how it is

but the place of goodness, I dont know if i will get there

- the positive world - the place where i say and do happy, positive, things

it is a place that terrifies me - it is empty of love

i dont really know why - as they were not always negative towards me

but i have a nagging fear of the positive - it leaves me isolated, empty

i can hardly put this into words as it is only just breaking through in my mind

i have no idea if it will even make sense to anyone else

but the positve world is one that i am almost willing to die to avoid again

i have been there - lost and alone

but i dont know

because i feel so utterly lost and alone where i am now

so perhaps i was right about this makeing no sense

[Marchmadness]

Hi -

I am not suggesting that you have to be "happy" all the time. Damn, if that

were so I would want to know how its done also. I am just suggesting to take

small steps, one positive thing about yourself that is all I am suggesting. Recovery

takes time as well as putting one foot in front of the other. It doesn't happen

overnight, and no one can do it for us, we have to do it for ourselves.

March

[walker]

i didnt really mean happy

i think what i meant is anything that is not part of my negative world

i do feel a connection with people here - but it is fleeting -and no sooneris it felt than it is gone

i am in a very empty and hollow place, but i will still be here

[Angel123]

i didnt really mean happy

i think what i meant is anything that is not part of my negative world

i do feel a connection with people here - but it is fleeting -and no sooneris it felt than it is gone

i am in a very empty and hollow place, but i will still be here

Hey walker

Remember i am here for you.

And i understand how you are feeling. Please keep talking and you know were i am if you need me .

Take care xxx

[walker]

im sorry

holding is not enough

i need real people and am being told this is not real

but no real people would have me near them

not if they knew the mess inside my head

and where are they? these friends? one left

real is shit

why does he keep saying this is not real

i try to fight him but his woice is with hers - and they stand up aginst me

but there is no me left

she is gone

they have destroyed her - in the name of acceptability

be nice - quiet - smil - polite - quiet - wor hard - help othrs - quiet - hide your feeling -

oh God yes - hide your feelings because THEY ARE BAD

and if what i feel is bad then I must be bad too

so I am really really deeply sorry if this distresses any of you in any way - as the hurt is all for me

[mrD]

Hi T

seems to me that you've created a character of false smiles and niceness, to cover up your feelings of hurt and emptiness, only to be told that this new character is worthless....

none of it is true, you need to find acceptance, acceptance of you, and that is the dilemer with this condition, feeling bad at both ends...

Why dont you try and seek some answers, what you got to loose, fuk all, if your hurting anyway, the only way can be up...seems your very intelligent, search on google for mentalization and do some research, seems this is quite a good form of therapy, and one that i think you would understand...iam investigating myself, gota be worth a try..

Love and acceptance of you

Dxxx

[hummm_mabbe]

Dont forget - you have chosen Hub while under the influence of the same feelings and cycles that have made you how you are. Hub is PART of that syatem - you chose him (without realising) precisely BECAUSE he fit the pattern. So he WILL tell you that you arent ill, that no one here counts and so on. He is lying to you but it feels right because that is what you have been raised to be treated like. This is why to a certain extent, with BPD paranoia is JUSTIFIED - because we actually pick people as friends and acquaitnaces who are untrustoworthy and treat us badly. We create our own hell, though are powerless to stop it until someone points it out to us.

This is why I keep talking about "suspension of disbelief" - just for a time you have to say "even though I dont belive in my guts that he is wrong, just for now I am going to hold it in my mind that maybe he is part of the same system and that he is in all likelhood wrong, perhaps even lying in order to keep his own world how HE wants it. It will not help me to feel better if I follow his ideas because they arent designed to help ME - even though they may be cleverly worded to suggest that he cares about me really. I have a number of people who want to see me get better and who think differently to Hub and my mum, and for now I have to pretend that they are right because that way I may start to see how they ARE right". Trying to improve, but trying to do it in a 'perfect' way that does not affect anyohe else, is impossible. It makes us limit our real efforts to get better. 'Collateral damage' in the form of other people having their rigid beliefs challenged - about you - is par for the course. If they cannot accept that you are doing this to help you get better, then they are more concerned with their own feelings. It really is that simple. Aiming for perfect, but quiet recovery is very difficult when the people that are part of keeping you that way are with you 24 hours a day. Im not suggesting you ditch anybody - I am suggesting that you try "suspension of disbelief" - to try to act as though something is true even though you dont yet belive it in your heart and guts.

When people have PD's their entire world ends up being built around it, and we expect the same subtle deprivation and invalidation from the planet as we felt when little. Its our system. We cannot change our deep belief in it overnight - and that is why we need "suspension of disbelief" for now. Without it we instead have the "anchor of our pasts". Even if disbeleiving takes us in an extreme direction, we need that extremity to pull us off the bottom of the ocean, where the anchor is keeping us. It doesnt matter if it seems we are being outrageous or not - the extra energy is needed to overcome the VAST inertia that our lives have built into us, like a shipwreck on the ocean floor. With time the ship has sunk into and got stuck in the sand, and had decades of barnacles and debris settle on it. Big chunky fish have made their homes in its poor little portholes and feed in its environment.

If we now wanted to raise that shipwreck with a submarine, at first we would have to put the engines on full to help it break free. Once it comes loose, and shakes off the sand and barnacles and some of the parasitic chunky fish think "oh hang on this ones moving, maybe its not such an easy target after all", then it will be easier to pull through the water and we can turn the engines down and get a better idea of how much power we REALLY need to bring it to the surface. But without that disproportionate effort at the beginning, we would never get moving.

I know this wont help much but hope that on some level it might click just a little bit.

[walker]

that sounds like James - who has said try and act 'AS IF' you think you are worth something

it is not simply the disproportionate effort of will required

it is the feeling of letting go - with nothing else to hold onto

it actually takes my breath away and leaves me gasping

like someone has just taken everything from within me, cast it out, and i am left trying to survive with no internal organs

indeed words dont seem enough -

it is like a domentors kiss - like the ground beneath my feet has suddenly vanished

I know the place - I think

but i am weak and cowardly and scared

James says i can do it

but it feels like a 2 year old - grasping the hand of a total stranger - and being taken away - for ever

[hummm_mabbe]

I didnt say act as if you are worth something - thats just CBT bullshit.

I said act as if the people telling you that you are making it up are wrong.

Theres a difference

[walker]

I didnt say act as if you are worth something - thats just CBT bullshit.

I said act as if the people telling you that you are making it up are wrong.

Theres a difference

there always is

it is between the clarity of your thought, and what i see when i read it

[hummm_mabbe]

I didnt say act as if you are worth something - thats just CBT bullshit.

I said act as if the people telling you that you are making it up are wrong.

Theres a difference

there always is

it is between the clarity of your thought, and what i see when i read it

So next time Hub is telling you that you are having a freeride, and that nothing anyone says here means anything, what might you say to yourself as the words come out of his mouth? As that same feeling of hoplessness and panic descends and you feel horrible listening to his words, I KNOW that none of this is going to make you feel any better at that moment. None if this is meant to make rapid, instant change or bring quick relief - its always gradual, barely noticeable. A little chip out of the wall at a time.

So:

You will naturally feel that anything critical is true because your FEELINGS when you hear negative things come along and make them seem true. IF you were someone who belived that not everything Hub says is true, and that (somehow) you came to belive that you really ARE ill, and deserved the time and support to get better (right now you are getting the support but dont feel you are entitled to it) just like your friends here, what might you say to this, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT YET BELIEVE IT:

HUB: You arent ill. None of those people online know anything, they are just wasters too, or at least probably they really are ill and you just want to claim you're like them so you dont have to go back to work. Why cant you take on your responsibility instead of ducking it all the time? All this stuff about childhood is rubbish - you childhood was fine from what I hear about it. I know I wasnt there but my opinion is more important than yours as I am a better judge of the life you have lead than you are.

WALKER: (insert response)

[walker]

he says ' i know you are ill, but i dont understand why'

I hear 'you are not really ill, so stop wallowing in it'

he says 'it is a sick place - full of sick people - perpetuating sickness

I say it helps and supports me in a way that i cannot find elsewhere

(SHIT he has just come back in here - to sit and watch me - and judge and judge and piss me off and tell me i can work in the bloody post ofice if i leave teaching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

i say 'the real people in the real world are not here, few of them call, or text or visit, - where is their support

at least people here trust me and respond to me and reach out to me'

I dont think this is what you want

i am finding it very hard Ross,

I can argue back - with some of the answers, but it is believing in them that is the problem

[hummm_mabbe]

he says ' i know you are ill, but i dont understand why'

I hear 'you are not really ill, so stop wallowing in it'

he says 'it is a sick place - full of sick people - perpetuating sickness

I say it helps and supports me in a way that i cannot find elsewhere

(SHIT he has just come back in here - to sit and watch me - and judge and judge and piss me off and tell me i can work in the bloody post ofice if i leave teaching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

i say 'the real people in the real world are not here, few of them call, or text or visit, - where is their support

at least people here trust me and respond to me and reach out to me'

I dont think this is what you want

i am finding it very hard Ross,

I can argue back - with some of the answers, but it is believing in them that is the problem

Its not about what i want - its trying to help you build a case against the invalidation in your environment, both from within and without.

Hub does not understand why you are ill - but does he try to? Does he sit and listen? Does he give you the benefit of the doubt, or does he insist that you 100% justify yourself before he will even give a little?

Any little girl that grew up feeling like she was not meant to make any noise, who should not bother her mum or dad with her bad emotions, will grow up feeling that she should hide them away, and feel ashamed of them. Any little girl that felt unable to really express how she felt would begin to feel cut off, unvalued and afraid. She would try to find love any way she could, even though some people may make her feel like she is bothrsome when she does. This is what a little girl will do when she is brought up in that environment, and if it doesnt change she will become an adult that feels the same way. She will still feel that she is wrong to show emotions and that any expression of them is bad. She will still feel that she is inferior and unvalued. Even if she wasnt hit or abused, it is all the things that are stuffed away and she feels guilty about that will make her feel empty, afraid and lost. A little girl needs at least one person that will proide the antidote to feeling that way, but if no adult comes forward and wants to know all about her, how she feels and what pain is locked away inside, then no change can happen and she stays stuck. Some little girls have a bit of this experience too, but then something might come along and heal it. Some other people may even be badly abused, but if someone eventually comes along to let them talk, and be listened to with empathy and feeling, those abuses may be healed.

There is no one on this earth who is in a position to decide what should or should not make someone feel sad. Emotions are subjective things. It rather seems unfair on that little girl that, if she hurts in response to something her parents do, that the adult should be in any position to tell her what she should or should not be feeling - after all, a child needs to learn how to handle the world from an adult beause they already know how to. The adult is better able to adapt to the little girls emotions because of this, and if she is struggling then she needs more support. Not all humans are the same and some need a different type of help. But of the adult says "well i am willing only to provide one type of help, even though you need another" then the vhild will feel lost and abandoned, left alone to deal with her emotions which clearly seem to upset her parents. She cannot learn to deal with her emotions, but feels expected to. She may see her emotions as all bad because her parents dont seem to like them, or her when she shows them. She may not see that if her parents stopped trying to 'ban' certain emotions and instead tried to understand why the little girl feels so afraid, and lost, then the little girl might feel better. With no change in this pattern she just grows up thinking that her parents did everything right and it was all her fault that now, her emotions seem out of proportion and things keep going wrong. She may even find that if she tries to understand the past then others tell her she is making a fuss.

People all have emotions, and those who love them accept those emotions whwther they think they would respond in the same way or not. This is validation - and in fact when people accept their loved ones emotions, especially if its part of the relationship that is causing the distress, then its very likely that the emotions themselevs will change. Once the little girl finally feels its ok to feel as she does and that someone will be there to hold her and help direct her on to the next step, she can feel safe. Only THEN will she feel strong enough to progress to the next stage.

[walker]

Hub does not understand why you are ill - but does he try to? Does he sit and listen? Does he give you the benefit of the doubt, or does he insist that you 100% justify yourself before he will even give a little?

we sit and try, but i get angry and upset - i have tried to explain that it is like we are on parallel roads, speaking different languages

he is on a road of words, logic, where emotion is cast aside and the past is buried and pretended to be dealt with - where he 'has no problems' because he can function ok' - where the impact of his actions on others is 'their problem'

he dismisses things with a wave of his arm - the past is gone - your child hood was better than mine - i dealt with it - so should you - put it down and get on with your life - like i do -

'be like me and get on with life ' - but he is a man who survives in his hobbies - who copes by withdrawing into his obsessions - who shut himself away from us for 4 years whilst we were stalked - who wants affirmation for everything he buys, writes, says, does, creates - every minute of every day

'look at this, read this....................................

he is 'healthy' in his eyes because he is so well protected, he can do his job and carry on

but i walked out of mine - when he thought i was fine - so i was wrong

we do not speak the same language, but we have the same needs

mine are raw, open, bleeding - his are buried, denied, and hidden

it has been like this everyday for 22 years

I do not have the energy any longer to think it will change. I have tried taking pills - to help me cope - but it seems that I am the sick one, and the more I discover about BPD - the more i think he is right and I am wrong

that terrifies me - it is one reason why I havent told him about BPD -

'there we are then - I tld you it was you, always said you made things bad, saw bad,

shit - I cant take all the blame - I have felt like a single mother, alone - in a house with a husband -

i am trying and trying to believe something different but he blurs my vision with his words and counterarguments, and logic

Just like my parents - he waves my emotions aside - 'dont make a fuss, dont be ridiculous, its not like that, you are wrong,

[hummm_mabbe]

I do not have the energy any longer to think it will change. I have tried taking pills - to help me cope - but it seems that I am the sick one, and the more I discover about BPD - the more i think he is right and I am wrong

that terrifies me - it is one reason why I havent told him about BPD -

'there we are then - I tld you it was you, always said you made things bad, saw bad,

shit - I cant take all the blame - I have felt like a single mother, alone - in a house with a husband

Do you see how this point of view actually refutes itself?

If you husband is telling you that you are NOT ill, how can he resort to an argument that then says "see? you are ill - and thats why its your fault". That is the craziest kind of logic, but one that someone who will do anything to have their point of view vindicated will use. If he is determined to make everything fit his own world view - for example if he needs to hide away from any sort of pain (incidentally - is this something that your mum or dad used to do? I think i remember you mentioning it) then his 'hiding' will take the form of 'blaming', and he knows it will work on someone who is as chornically guilted and shamed as you are.

You cannot be 'not ill' when it suits him, and then 'ill' when it suits him. That is emotional manipluation.

Your hub sees no need for him to change - he just wants you to conveniently go back to being 'fine' so that his world is not disrupted - and his opinion happens to be reflected by your upbringing. That does not make it true.

To call us sick people perpetuating sickness shows his ignorance. If he knows nothing about mental illness beyond what he regards as 'common sense' (something that in terms of dealing with a staolker threatening his family does not sem to be serving him particularly well) then to put us all in one boat shows a deep ignorance and an unwillingness to try to consider another persons point of view. But again, if he were to actually embrace someone else s point of view, then he would have to face all those problems that HE has been neatly sweeping under a rug. There is you going through hell to try to understand things, whilst he blithely sits back and expects his world to mould to his own wishes. That is deeply uncaring. If you accept that your marriage has troubles, then why should his view be so important? If you can see that he does not seem to care about your feelings, why attach such significance to his (ill informed) point of view?

The reason is because it all FITS.

He may well have had bad periods in his life. Mental illness is not an on/off switch. It is a subtle interplay of hundreds of variables. Its not only the bad things that happen - its also the supports you do or do not get. For example - if you took one child and had Dad beat him regularly, and mum ignored his cries for help and told him that he was just making a fuss, its highly likely that mental illness will result.

However, if Dad beat him in the same way, but mum was there to at least sooth him, and tell him it wasnt his fault and that Daddy was sometimes a bad man, the boy would be less likely to develop a mental illness. It is the BALANCE of the two.

Similarly - there can be an absence of actual abuse, but if the childs normal responses to stress are treated with disdain or dismissed, then you can see that this is the same as being hit by dad AND ignored by mum. Stress is stress is stress - and children need someone who is able and willing to help them through it. Youc annot expect a child to find her own way in life and handle what the world has to throw at her alone. You wouldnt do it to a dog, but with human beings many parents seem to reason that thay can repeat to their kids what was done to them, because "it didnt do them any harm". of course they may fail to recognise the second important factor - whwther or not at least SOMEONE was there to guide them and soothe them. Children either do or do not develop their own ways of coping. Some ways of coping are more helpful than others. If our lives are such that a particular mode of coping is closed to us, or the opportunity never arises to 'test' it, then it never becomes part of our emotional landscape. When Hub dismisses your childhood as being 'better than his' he focuses only on his own feelings. He negelcts to look at whether there was someone who smoothed off the edges for him. He does not look to see that for him, his 'coping method' of sweeping everything under the rug was enough to stop him experienceing the symtpoms of mental illness. To add weight to this - it has been observed in soldiers coming back from war that, even though two soldiers may have experienced the same horrific experience, it is the one who is not able, or not given the opportunity to speak about his experiences that is an indicator of whether he will develop PTSD - which in many ways mimics the symptoms of personality disorder and can even lead to psychosis. BIG STRESS minus SUPPORT minus TAUGHT COPING PATTERN = mental distress. (Of course, the soldiers own emotional history factors in too)

Long term Mental illness results when the childhood balance of care, soothing and guidance, versus life stresses is wrong. It is like stacking up two sides of a scale - soothing experiences on the left, stress on the right. The more you take from the left and add to the right, the more the scale tips over. It can even tip over if you take away all the weights on the left with only a few weights on the right. Extra weight only makes it tip over further and more quickly (This theory is borne out by research done by a number of well accepted researchers in the field who say that it is NOT abuse per se that causes BPD. Its presence will cause worse symtpoms, but the illness alone has at its base INVALIDATION. (Marsha Linehan)).

It can often boil down to LUCK that some people find a method of coping that keeps them from feeling symptoms (even if that method makes others suffer in their place). It is like chaos theory - and again, its another reason why no one who has a mental illness is to BLAME for that mental illness. The stigma comes only from other, less understanding, peoples desires to place others in neat boxes that do not require them to THINK about the "there but for the grace of god go i" nature of life. It challenges their false sense of safety and invulnerability - and THAT is why they defend it so strongly - NOT because what they are saying about you or others is right.

But you have to ask yourself the question - SOMETHING keeps him from wanting to look any deeper. Perhaps there is some sense that if he were actually FORCED to, that it would be very painful for him. Perhaps some small part of him realises that if he were forced to confront his own truth, then HE might know what the symptoms of mental illness feel like.

In all honesty, Hub is not about to contribute anything useful to your recovery. That is why it is all the more important that you draw on the healthy resources you DO have - us, James and your own research.

i am trying and trying to believe something different but he blurs my vision with his words and counterarguments, and logic

Just like my parents - he waves my emotions aside - 'dont make a fuss, dont be ridiculous, its not like that, you are wrong,

You may like to read a book called Emotional Blackmail, or alternatively The Gaslight Effect. What you are describing is emotional manipulation. (Look up 'the gaslight effect' on google). I also hope that from what I have written above, you will see that his 'logic' is far from logical.

[walker]

i have been telling him for years that he has problems - but guess it was the wrong thing to do - i have watched him hurt and deny the pain, watched him shut himself away in his study, with his hobbies, and wonder why his kids dont want to talk to him

i have - honestly - nearly every bloody day - wished i could leave

but i see and feel the pain he is in, even though he doesnt, - and it breaks my heart that we are both so trapped

and the hardest thing of all

is that when I left work in feb - he didnt know i was feeling any worse than my usual miserable self - i cam home in tears - went to work in tears - and told him about the dep heads campaign against me - but i didnt tell him all of it - so it was thrown bac at me - as 'i didnt think you were any worse than normal'

he is shut off - and I have shut off from him - to keep me safe - so that I can feel my pain without having it swept aside

Yes you are right - he and my parents are very very similar

and when they show warmth, and kindness and understanding - I am thrown off balance - completely knocked off my guard

After my occ health meeting - he was perfectly reasonable - and that has thrown me

it makes me feel more bad - because I then think that all the bad feelings I was having towards him, are unfounded - and they are just me being cruel and nasty

I am feeling it now -as i write to you -

and the hardest thing??

I thought this period of illness would lead me out - give me the courage to leave -

and I dont think I have that courage

I am so thankful for the insight and time that you, James and others offer

but i can feel failure standing right in front of me - in front of the door

everything I do - each decision I make - is hurting others, in a way I cannot deal with

and when it gets too painful it honestly comes to a choice of leaving my husband or my life,

crazy as that may seem - the latter feels more within my grasp

that is not a veiled threat - it has shocked me - it is not somewhere I had imagined reaching - but it is something that nags away at the back of my mind

and whenever i say dont be so silly - of course you wont - then I hear the reply - 'then you are trapped - for you do not have the courage to leave'.

I am very very frightened of my future, but I am very close to taking meds and going back into hiding

I do not feel I have your strength, courage, or emotional maturity

[hummm_mabbe]

To me, it sounds like you are in the same position with Ray as many of us are, or have been, with our parents.

You feel guilty about him, because he seems to hurt too. A lot of the time it seems he shuts you out, or belittles your problems. But then SOMETIMES he does something nice, for example after some extreme event, like your OH meeting which you burst into tears at (letting you know again then the only way anyone listens is if you breakdown). That one event makes you question the myriad times he has done the opposite, and this gels with your view that its all your fault and are making it up.

If you look at women who are severely beaten by their partners, even to the point of hospitalisation, you will see the same pattern - the ONE time the partner is nice to them makes them question the beatings, and so question their entire perception of reality. She views heself as mad whilst the partner is free to blame his violence on her being mad. He can escape personal censure and even hide the violence he visits on his wife. If a woman can do that with someone who is beating her, then its not hard to see how easily another woman could do that with emotional neglect and lack of understanding. But the second one is just as corrosive, especially over time, just as is the first one. Again, overt abuse is not necessary to eat away at someones emotional wellbeing, and their sanity.

Yes it may well be true that you have learned to block Ray out. After all, if his responses, 70% of the time, were to minimise your feelings AND this gelled with your experience of the past, then pretty quick you would think "oh theres no point in telling Ray about this". You end up in a loop, much like any other BPD loop.

You make his feelings 4000 times more important than your own y feeling guilty about him, when in fact you are hurting far more.

I dont doubt that you do feel suicidal, I think its perfectly understanable given the power of your feelings and the way you are being not only shut out, but emotionally manipulated whenever you begin to make any kind of progress. I cannot tell you what to do to stop this cycle, i can only point it out to you. But if you kill yourself, then you would be doing so simply so that Ray can live in ignorance, when in fact the pain he is feeling is nothing compared to what you are suffering. Its just that he makes sure you feel guilty about HIS feelings, whilst you are just expected to suffer.

Is that at all fair? Given that there are others in this world who could not only help you feel better but also expeience the validation, nurturing and care that you need, does it not seem that committing suicide is simply agreeing with everyone of your persecutors who are telling you that you have no right to express your emotions and finally get what you need?

[walker]

i am saying thankyou now - from the depths of my heart,

because I know that within minutes, I shall feel guilty over what you have written

but it is true

and to have you validate that is beyond words

as I write - the loop closes, and I see how my children are also unwittingly involved in keeping me stuck

especially my daughter

but then as I read - I learn - of the terrible legacy I have given to her

When I told her I wasnt returning to work yet - she said ' oh I knew you would say that'

when my parents sent a text, and I told them the same - I heard nothing - and I havent had the courage to call them

I am wrong and they are right - the loop has closed

but thankyou

so so much

for what you have said

[hummm_mabbe]

You are right - they are part of the loop, and now it has closed on you.

It is almost unassailably difficult for you to get through this on your own, let alone with others hanging off you as extra weight. It sounds as though Ray has abidcated responsibility for looking after the children, and yet somehow that means that you now feel guilty even though you have a severe illness. Ray shiuld in fact feel ashamed that he has hidden away from HIS responsibility, but somehow he deftly transfers all that shame onto you. Thats his (admittedly clever) way of avoiding ever having to feel bad - and you are the fall guy.

And then the kids. They realise that YOU are the one that has made the effort to be there in some way. You dont hide away with your hobbies - you try to give what you can, despite the illness that you are FIGHTING to come to terms with. Is Ray fighting? Perhaps in his little study with his little hobbies he is winning some battle, but its not one that makes any difference in the real world. So the kids HAVE to cling to you because they figured out that Dad would never do that. NOT because he cant, but because he wont. Seeing you as the one more likely, BECAUSE YOU CARE, to actually give to them, they understanably will put pressure on you to get back to 'normal'. Thats what kids do.

But right now, YOU are the one that needs caring for. You need respite and space to begin to get better, in the absebce of those inputs that actually maintain your illness. Making any kind of decision about your future now is the last thing anyone expects of you. If you feel GENUINELY better and are recovering, then you are more able to make a decision based on what is best for EVERYONE - not just Ray. The kids and Ray need to understand that although you WANT to be there for them, and be a great mummy, right now there are things you need to deal with. When you start to feel genuinely better, THEN you can find a new equilibrium in which they can draw on you, but also vice versa - a place where they support you too.

I realise that 'escape' is not possible. It feels like there is no way you can effectively leave home for a while and ask Ray to look after the kids. It seems to me that what you need is some space to be able to concentrate on YOU, but right now guilt is acting as the barrier that stops you doing this even within your own mind.

This is where sometimes you have to act selfishly. Its like being selfish in order to be loving - but if you are not givne the space to recover, with the aid of therapy, then you can never be expected to be all those things you are expected to be. Ray will not die if turn round and decide to think of yourself properly. The kids will not die either. In fact, it may cause the kids to finally say "hey Dad, how about you spend some bloody time with us?".

You are being squashed into a corner that you do not deserve. Its like kicking someone's borken leg whilst demanding they hurry up and get back on their feet. I think that the focus of you therapy with James right now should be on figuring out how you can get some mental breathing space within your family. It feels like right now this is the big hole in your balloon, and no matter what James does, it keeps leaking out. I rather think that Ray and the family are the ones with the pins and its about time they went and got some bloody sellotape to cover the holes.

[walker]

YES

I wrote to james last night - begging him for somewhere to go - though I know there is nowhere

the occ health nurse thought I should be in hospital - but i think i will have to do something risky to get there!!

my daughter is at uni - 20

and my son is at boarding school - 18

they are both old enough to deal with this i guess

but I am ashamed of myself and what I have become

and i go to great great lengths to function around them, or on the phone

and ray

and mum and dad

I just want to be able to let go and let other people take care of me

but I cant

this is horrid - but everytime an ambulance drive past - I think - some lucky person is being cared for

Intellectually I know that is a shit response

but I am crying out for something to just snap and allow me to let go of the controls

........... Ray is away for 3 days next week - and says I should have someone here? DOES HE CARE????????????

I am hoping i can find the strength to manipulate a visit to hospital - but i dont doubt for a moment - i wll be here when he returns - sitting on my arse - in a messy house

having made no effort to 'get on with things, and keep busy'

[hummm_mabbe]

Well, then it seems that the main thing keeping you stuck is your powerful guilt over Rays feelings and the suffocating legacy from your past.

I do not know what your kids are like, but I think that it might help if you could tell them how you really feel, choosing the one most likely to respond well. To tell them the depth of the emotions you feel, rather than trying to act as thouygh everything is fine, or at the very least to tell them that what you are experiencing is a recognised problem. If they cannot accept it, then perhaps for now thats an avenue you have to leave, but if they say "ok mum, yes we thought maybe things werent quite right, let us know if you want to talk" then you will have gained something. It is your PAST that tells you you must never reveal emotions, and yes your kids may have been brought up feeling the same way - but it takes at least one person to break that. You may find that it cracks open things you had not anticipated.

I do not know what you 'need' to be hospitalised - can you ask the OH woman again? The other option would be going to stay with a friend, but given that I myself dont really have any friends its a bit rich of me to presume that everyone else has this rich supply of people waiting in the wings to care for them ... If there is someone you could ask though, then do. But obviously, NOT your mum or Dad ...

Other than that, work with James to get the inner mental distance you need from Rays constant erosion. Once you begin to feel better you will be in a position to speak to him on an equal footing.

Major changes in personality bring major changes in life. Sometimes they just happen naturally. One change is that its possible that by becoming more assertive, and emotionally honest, with Ray, that things may change for the better. It is a genuine possibility, so dont presume only that the future only holds distater. The thing is, once you have more interal strength, then you are far better able to do the things needed to make positive change.

[walker]

no one