Learning To Trust Is Hard

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo

Hope you are all well and stuff. Sorry if I am board hogging, I am lonely and I need to yabber a bit ... mabbe you are all in chat right now? I still cant go in there yet, my kinna paranoid / shizotypal tendencies mean I still wanna hide from folkies. So, I post. I know I blather a lot, sorry

Umm so yeah, here is where I am. Its liike, I realise that I need to find steady sourcaes of intimacy, closeness, validation and honesty. I am learning what that feels like in therapy, and I think I am a bit more able to spot untrustoworthy people ... BUT my whole life has been geared to reacting to people as if they are untrustworthy, that they will hurt me - and so, deep inside I really wish that i could just do without people. I want closeness on the one hand, but on the other its so much easier to just steer clear of humans. So I dont know the "mechanics of being around others who are honest and validating". I still have so many cycles and loops and throw backs and things that I know will surface, despite my knowledge that I need intimacy.

I know its a metter of time, and that issues of trust are the hardest to change. I know I am doing the right things in therapy to get there - its just that well, right now, um ... imma bit lonely. But its silly - I can only tolerate human company for so long before I feel really stressed. I try very very hard not to show it and act 'normal', but deep inside I want them to just go away and the stress builds and builds. Mindfulness helps at these times to stop me from going bang, but yeh - I want to be able to be around them and ENJOY their company, as opposed to endure .... I guess my hypervigiliance is always on, and thats why I get so tired, and I have to trust that with time as I increasingly accept my therapist as trustworthy that it will make me calmer inside, the little soothing feeling that stops all that inner tension and heat (the gasfire, I call it - I need to turn down the gasfire). I guess I am just being impatient

But yeah, it feels like the next step. The actual 'doing' part of getting back into the world, of enjoying the world? Like, I need to get this solved before even considering work, because I know that the stress it places me under puts me at risk for more semi-psychotic episodes, and at the same time this also is the "getting real relationships" problem too.

I feel like I went through life as a house without a foundation. The walls kept falling over and I patched them with duct tape and twigs and things, but eventually I couldnt keep up with the bricks that kept tumbling out even as I worked on another wall. The house crumbled. I have had to bring in the bulldozers and clear away the rubble, leaving me all exposed and feeling every last drop of rain and chill (even though this has been a huge help in learning what my buried reactions are - like, no pain no gain, or sumthin ... ). I have been laying a foundation with my therapist gradually and it feels like mabbe I have the hardcoring in place but still waiting for the cement to hold it all in And then after that, its all about building new walls, and floors. And then FINALLY filling it with people ....

Yeah I guess Im just being impatient. Would be nice to just be abe to trust though, yanno?

Thanks for reading my yabber ....

[walker]

Ross it will happen, but i know it hurts

I find it real shit - that we are absolutely screaming out for the comfort of fellow humans, and cant trust or tolerate them when they appear.

I am having to rely so heavily on the people here at the moment as my 'real' friends dont come

Its like being trapped in - I want company (comfort....) - they dont come - i could call - they might hate me - why do I have to make the move - they might come - dont know if i want them to - if they come - i feel crowded - not heard - know they will go soon - want them too - want them to stay - they hate me - --------- and in the relationship??? -

I'm sorry Ross

its shit

and I hate it too - no one - ever - really there

[hummm_mabbe]

:( Yup, thats how a lot of it feels.

I am trying to see how both I AND others have been responsible for where I am now, and what I can do to change how people react to me. I know that in many ways I do things that caused me to get teased - like a lot of my schizotypaly weirdeyness and sometimes my trying too hard or being arrogant - and that other people respond in bad ways. Then of course my paranoia picks up on their bad response ... and so the whole time I am watching both mine and their actions and reactions and its soooo draining. But yet, I dont totally have all the tools to do things differently. Not yet, anyway ...

I dont blame others so much anymore. I only blame my parents for the things that caused me pain, and with Dad I can forgive because he has made that effort. Parents choose us, and so they are the only people in life that we can expect unconditional love from. Mine did not give that, but now things are changing. Howeverm no one else owes us unconsitional love, there is always a measure of conditionality involved, and so now I find it harder to blame non-family others for my problems, as even though I find it very very hard to change how I act, I do nonetheless have free will.

So first I know I have to change what is inside, and receive some of what I need to turn down the gasfire from Emma. Then I work on the 'me' thing. Then I go out into the world with my new base and begin to see what happens. I know that there are bad people, neutral people and good people. In the past I wouild have been more attracted to the bad people, but in the future I will have more choice. If they turn up I can choose to accept them, or get rid of them. With more internal stength, I will be able to deal with the bad stuff that comes from goos people, and see it as normal relationsho challenges instead of absolute betrayal.

I thinkt he key thing is that I refuse to blame others because I know that I am the only one who can choose to do things differently - and I think i can do that once the power of the past is brought down to size.

I spose I am half positive, half not.

Sorry for typos!

[walker]

nothing to say

you see things more clearly than me

i just feel its all my fault - or I project it all out and blame everyone else and then beat myslf up over it anyway

Love to you my friend

[hummm_mabbe]

nothing to say

you see things more clearly than me

i just feel its all my fault - or I project it all out and blame everyone else and then beat myslf up over it anyway

Love to you my friend

Huggles

:wub:

[wednesday]

I think I know what you mean. For me it is desperately wanting to take comfort from others, and yet not being able to get it from those closest to me. I don't really understand why. They have said of me that I am desperate for the closeness of others, but also terrified to let others close incase they see the real me.

I think this is why it is so difficult to soothe.

Why is it that with so many of us, we can seem to be soothed by therapists and yet find it impossible to take from loved ones?

[walker]

They have said of me that I am desperate for the closeness of others, but also terrified to let others close incase they see the real me.

OMG - ABSOLUTELY - that is what my T keeps saying I am doing to him, too. He says I have trapped him in my prophecy - that he will finally go, because I am driven to push him away - the only damn person here, who understands. My not moving on - I will lose him =

I can see it happening before my eyes , but I am driven to destroy the relationship

It is tearing me apart - but i just cant help myself - and I am terrified of losing him

???????????????????

ed. the nhs has no time for people who are stuck in destructive cycles - they want pills and names off lists

[hummm_mabbe]

They have said of me that I am desperate for the closeness of others, but also terrified to let others close incase they see the real me.

OMG - ABSOLUTELY - that is what my T keeps saying I am doing to him, too. He says I have trapped him in my prophecy - that he will finally go, because I am driven to push him away - the only damn person here, who understands. My not moving on - I will lose him =

I can see it happening before my eyes , but I am driven to destroy the relationship

It is tearing me apart - but i just cant help myself - and I am terrified of losing him

???????????????????

ed. the nhs has no time for people who are stuck in destructive cycles - they want pills and names off lists

I have a fear that when I say this it will come off as invalidating .. I dont mean it to, its just because I know that you have all the schema books!! What you are talking about there is part of the defectivenss schema Have a read of it in the handbook or the RYL book, because its full of some really good insight. very human - it helped me see so much about myself. Just an idea :unsure:

[walker]

its ok, I will.

The sad thing is - James wants to stand by me, but he is being pushed from above - to shift me, and I just push and push and push - compelled towards the inevitable.

shit shit shit

I very much doubt his superiors give a shit about my defectiveness schema

I can almost read the writing on the wall!!

[hummm_mabbe]

its ok, I will.

The sad thing is - James wants to stand by me, but he is being pushed from above - to shift me, and I just push and push and push - compelled towards the inevitable.

shit shit shit

I very much doubt his superiors give a shit about my defectiveness schema

I can almost read the writing on the wall!!

Dare I say it - if that happens, then we have to look for the next option. Have you actually heard that his superiors think that?

My psychiatrist agreed with my dx and she suggested long term psychodynamic. Now, I said I did not want it and would stick to my private schema, but the fact is the NHS will provide for long term support. Personally I think the best way of ensuring you get the support you need is to write out all the things that trouble you on paperr - even the private stuff, but especially the stuff that a psych will pick up on. By this I mean the diagnostic criteria.

I know you have been through assessment before, but I went through many many of these before I realised that the mroe I held back about what I really felt, the more I stayed stuck because I wasnt expressing my true feelings.

I know that right now your focus is on the immediate fear if what happens in the future - I was pointing out the defectiveness schema because it directly talks to what you were saying about feeling you wanted to push James away.

[hummm_mabbe]

Lol this thread started with me moaning about my own life and now Ive turned into therapist mode ....

Blind leading the blind and all that ...

old habits die hard :lol:

[walker]

sorry seem to have hijacked your topic.

James told me he has to argue my case every week - I understand why - I know he has to show what work he is doing and how it is helping me - I know I dont seem to be moving.

I think he is angry with the system as he says he doesnt want me to leave therapy - I know it is tough on him - too

and it comes between us.

I dont see the psych - just dont understand how it all holds together

SHould just go back to bloody work and hope that I crack up .

Why the hell cant I let go.

because Im a coward? because Im not ill?

there is no security,

nothing is safe - How can I have trust

when the powers that be will not let me

Ross in therapist role

T in pathetic useless female role

as bloody usual

[hummm_mabbe]

If only we could just go and get really pissed

Mines a tennets ^_^

[walker]

dont like alcohol

but have to say it is getting increasingly tempting

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo

I know this prolly isnt too interesting to many folks, but it just helps me to think out loud about these things and have someone listen ...

Even though I feel like the DSM diagnoses arent the most accurate or useful things, the PD dx's do provde snapshots of certain personality traits that lead to feeling bad. I have realised that I really fit the Paranoid and Schizotypal PD patterns, and right now my main sturggle - learning to trust - very much fits the PPD pattern (one of the traits is grandiosity, abusivness yet feeling like I am just defending myself. Not something I like to admit, but something that needs looking at nonetheless).

I think this is useful for me to see, because it makes me realise that I dont trust anyone, and that this makes me view the whole world in the same way, and makes me super-sentitiv to any perceved slight from strangers or friends. It makes it impossible for me to feel part of a group, because I do not trust that that group has my wellbeing at heart, and that its members will act to serve themselves and hurt me. Because I assume this from the outset, I act towards them in ways designed to either offset their aggression (by being a bit kissie assey) or by being directly aggressive myself, seeing everything they do as evidence of malintent. By acting aggressively, so do they react aggressively, and then my theory that they are not to be trusts is proven. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It also acauses me to reject other peoples help, because I do not belive that they can possibly truly understand me, and so will sugegst something useless or simlply geared to their own wishes. The need to make my own sense of everything becomes of paramount importance and no one elses view matters - again resulting in an arrogant dismissal of others attempts to help me. I see life as an endless succession of people attempting to gain power over me and others, to climb to the top of the pole - and that this attitude comes before friendship. I do not belive that true friendship exists, except in the case where you eithr dominate someone and it fits their passivity, or you accept their dominance over you, passivley. In my mind there is no possibility of equal relationships, or of respect. Only power differentials. Because of this I am always drawn into power differentials - picking people that want to fight because they feel the same! Im wearing blinkers the whole time!!

I can never feel a part of a group because of this. It affects me at work, I see all bosses as thr self interested and abusive person that I see everyone as. I am instantly on the defensive, looking for potential attacks, and warding them off with my 'clever' defences. The same defences that cause the problem to happen! And then once I am under attack, I go psycotic and start losing it, and finally have to run away to avoid anymore damage. Sometimes, yes - there are abusive people around, and of course my rardar draws me to them. They are the people who must be changed, called out, confronted. I guarantee myself HASSLE and the attention of the most naturally abussive people. My sensitivity to criticism and rejection causes me anxiety and depression, and ultimately more anger.

But its IMPOSSIBLE that everyone is untrustworthy, and by assuming they are all bad, I nevr give anyone a chance to prove otherwise. I need to be at the top of the ladder, in control, because otherwise I feel afraid. Of course others, like my bosses, wont see it this way, and my behaviour will simply seem dominating and arrogant. If someone tells me this is the case, I wont see it that way because from my POV I am a victim, under assault and trying to defend myself. My self-view gets further and further from how others view me, and I feel more and more perscuted. The same ptoblems seem to follow me everywhere.

One of my defences is trying to be everyines friend. This backfires because I seem odd or fake. Then others respond badly, and the cycle starts again. In fact underneath my real urge is to avoid most people because I do not trust them, despite desperately wanting affaection and closeness. Lately I have stopped the consant need to make people like me by chatting to / trying to make everyone laugh who I meet. I feel more relaxed and less like I prostitite myself to everyone. I feel more genuine, even though I feel like I would like to be friendly. I realise I have to wait until more changes happen inside before I can reach an equilibirum, but for now I MUST go through this stage in order to pull back ther curtain and see what was driving it - and that is my PARANOIA.

If you actually read this then ta :)

[joysmelody]

How can you trust if trust was never ever established to its fullest degree? Tell me how can this be done? From the outside you cannot trust and from the inside who can you trust? Is there a self to trust? What is trust anyway?

j

[hummm_mabbe]

How can you trust if trust was never ever established to its fullest degree? Tell me how can this be done? From the outside you cannot trust and from the inside who can you trust? Is there a self to trust? What is trust anyway?

j

It sounds a bit like you dont trust anyone at all, a bit like me, so I guess if you are living from that point of view, it would seem impossible to think that trust could exist. Maybe all the people who say they do trust are liars or manipulators or have their heads in the clouds, or maybe you and I simply are paranoid?

I always think that if I end up with the view "everyone else is wrong and Im the only one with the truth", that its very likely I have gone wrong somewhere. As many others seem to belive that trust exists and are able to share themseleves with others freely, and to have trusting, real relationships with others, I think that is enough to tell me that yes - it is possible and it does exist.

Perhaps trust exists up til the point where it is broekn once too many times, and before that we should give people the benefit of the doubt, especially if the byproduct of that is care, intimacy and understanding? The upshot of that is that it would mean that everyone has their own individual trust set-point, with smaller or largher infractions represnting a breach of trust. It might be said then that people who can be seen as paranoid just have an extremely low set point for trusting, all to easily overstepped.

[joysmelody]

Trust is earned. It's not a given. When it's earned - tried, tested and found to be true - yeah - it'll sit and even then I'll have one eye on the door and the other on the pulse of the relationship. Because that's how things have been conditioned.

j

How can you trust if trust was never ever established to its fullest degree? Tell me how can this be done? From the outside you cannot trust and from the inside who can you trust? Is there a self to trust? What is trust anyway?

j

It sounds a bit like you dont trust anyone at all, a bit like me, so I guess if you are living from that point of view, it would seem impossible to think that trust could exist. Maybe all the people who say they do trust are liars or manipulators or have their heads in the clouds, or maybe you and I simply are paranoid?

I always think that if I end up with the view "everyone else is wrong and Im the only one with the truth", that its very likely I have gone wrong somewhere. As many others seem to belive that trust exists and are able to share themseleves with others freely, and to have trusting, real relationships with others, I think that is enough to tell me that yes - it is possible and it does exist.

Perhaps trust exists up til the point where it is broekn once too many times, and before that we should give people the benefit of the doubt, especially if the byproduct of that is care, intimacy and understanding? The upshot of that is that it would mean that everyone has their own individual trust set-point, with smaller or largher infractions represnting a breach of trust. It might be said then that people who can be seen as paranoid just have an extremely low set point for trusting, all to easily overstepped.

[InnerPeace]

My belief is that we don't learn to trust...we learn how not to trust.

Look at babies and young children, do they know fear? Are they not full of nothing but love, openness and trust?

We teach children about the dangers in the world. We teach children what is acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour. We learn from experience not to trust.

The question is how to return to a state of trust. I believe that entails removing our fear and involved in that is working on our self esteem and boundaries so that we can trust ourselves enough to know that we can deal with any situation and therefore we can trust others.

To not trust others is to not trust ourselves.

[hummm_mabbe]

My belief is that we don't learn to trust...we learn how not to trust.

Look at babies and young children, do they know fear? Are they not full of nothing but love, openness and trust?

We teach children about the dangers in the world. We teach children what is acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour. We learn from experience not to trust.

Yes I like this point of view, its a very good point.

One also backed up by research - again Mr Bowlby and his long term studies of babies growing up - the ones who were well treated had no problem trusting and forming hinest, intimate relationships, but the ones who received less than optimum (abuse, maternal separation, maternal depression and so on) ended up being very untrusting.

I am going to take this idea and carry it about with me, and just keep the idea that perhaps people are trustworthy after all in my mind. I want to try and see at what point my alarms are set off by others, and then write them down with as much detail as I can, and then show them to my therapist to see what she thinks. Iknow that I am super-sensitive to any kind of 'bad' facial expression or negative comment, and I think that this is a good potential ground for some more challenging of my percpetions. Blimey I feel sort of happy, like I have a plan!

I love it when a plan comes together (insert Hannibal Smith and BA Barracus smiley here)

[joysmelody]

Innerpeace - I agree with the first part of your post. Re trusting self - the ONLY one aside from God that I trust - is me. At least I'm predictable in my fck ups and strengths. There's consistency there. I can rely on self to look out for self. And with God - well there's a whole other post, but I put my trust there when I simply have no where else to turn - not even inwards because - simply there are times when it's completely new territory and only something bigger and wiser can lead me.

j

My belief is that we don't learn to trust...we learn how not to trust.

Look at babies and young children, do they know fear? Are they not full of nothing but love, openness and trust?

We teach children about the dangers in the world. We teach children what is acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour. We learn from experience not to trust.

The question is how to return to a state of trust. I believe that entails removing our fear and involved in that is working on our self esteem and boundaries so that we can trust ourselves enough to know that we can deal with any situation and therefore we can trust others.

To not trust others is to not trust ourselves.

[hummm_mabbe]

As I was yabbering on about the DSM dx of Paranoid Personality Disorder, thought I would post the criteria. For me it acts to call attention to broad behaviours I may engage in, but I realise that this dx represents only one little element of what I am like. Its just iseful right now for getting some things into perspective. I wanted to put this up because previously I would not have thought of paranoid people as being abusive and hostile. As my other posts seemed to help some people (or so I heard via a couple PM's!) I thought I would add this too:

Symptoms

1. Suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her

2. Is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates

3. Is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her

4. Reads benign remarks or events as threatening or demeaning.

5. Persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights

6. Perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack

7. Has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner.

And some extra info too:

Individuals with this disorder are generally difficult to get along with and often have problems with close relationships because of their excessive suspiciousness and hostility. Their combative and suspicious nature may elicit a hostile response in others, which then serves to confirm their original expectations. Individuals with this disorder have a need to have a high degree of control over those around them. They are often rigid, critical of others, and unable to collaborate, although they have great difficulty accepting criticism themselves. They often become involved in legal disputes. They may exhibit thinly hidden, unrealistic grandiose fantasies, are often attuned to issues of power and rank, and tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, particularly those from population groups distinct from their own. More severely affected individuals with this disorder may be perceived by others as fanatics and form tightly knit cults or groups with others who share their paranoid beliefs.

Sad to say that a lot of that stuff reads like chunks out of my life

[walker]

not you my firend

you are oto ikind

[hummm_mabbe]

not you my firend

you are oto ikind

Mabbe ... but only because I have been working hard to change. I think before I was horrid when my paranoia cha cha cha kicked in. Realising the parts of me that are ugly (and by this I dont mean the "oh Im so boring, Im so ugly, im so retarded, woe is me stuff" I started with, I mean the stuff that wont earn me any victim status points because actually they are things that affect others negatively) I think has been the most useful in terms of changing, but I am only the teeniest bit of the way along. Still much more to do.

I heard it referred to as 'shadow work' - looking at the side of myself that others might consider arrogant, mean, conceited, grasping or entitled. Punishing myself for it didnt help - the only way to make any progress I found is to look it squarely in the face, understand why I act that way and choose to begin to make a difference. I realised I cannot blame people for rejecting me if I continue behaving in a way that gives them no choice but to get angry or exasperated at me. The hard part was seeing that I DO it.

Im glad you feel that I have made progress, but for me it is a continuous battle. The criteria do apply to me, I just have to fight the abusive, hostile reaction and try to see the reality of the situation instead of going off at the deep end and attacking, alienating and demeaning people, yet feeling justified for it just because I feel attacked. I am hoping that with self-discipline and working on the hurt inside, that the motivation for these kins of behaviours willgo, because I realise how much they hurt others and keep me isolated. Its my dark side, and I want to bring it into the light so it can heal.

[bibiddi]

I think it is inherently difficult for people who had difficult childhoods to learn to trust. Simply, the people who we were supposed to learn how to trust from, were the very people who damaged us. So, until we start working on challenging our behaviour we have probably never truly trusted anyone, so have very little awareness as to what it feels like.

I've accepted I will never truly trust anyone fully. But I will trust them enough, so that it doesnt become a damaging involvement, for either of us.