Unethical.

[Joshua]

Stevie - Being a gentleman who is educated in the law i am sure you realise the importance of facts and not assumptions. I would therefore ask you to become aware of the facts should you wish to continue providing advice which seems at the moment to be based on assumption.

[Joshua]

Fairy i have been clear in stating that I do not view this as an argument nor do i wish to have one. You may believe yourself to have been very clear but I (The person you have been speaking of, alleging that i am Providing services that are unethical) is not clear exactly which is why i asked for your clarification.

[Lily-Bee]

Id like to stress what Joshua said gun you are making assumptions, you do not know what Josh does and doesnt do with this charity money wise and all of you responding to this assumption it is a assumption!!

I do not normally get angry but this is getting to me. You are now acusing Josh of things you have absolutely no foundation for.

Lilly

[gun_747]

Joshua,

I am not going to entertain the use of patronisation to make a point, I am too smart for such childish inferences...I am merely speaking from a point which I believe to be true...I do not assume anything given the nature of the posts i make, other people in here might come to rely upon such information for their own purposes and hence I choose my words carefully and with caution...you know what I'm talking about here as you do too originally except I will not profit from the provision of such information.

If you don't benefit from the reliefs I have stated above (since you've been quiet about that aspect of my post) I suggest you use them...maybe help you fund other projects.

this is my last post on the issue, I have other important matters to attend to

[Joshua]

My post, made quite some time ago.

Added - After reading something from a team member it would appear that you are alleging that I registered BPDWORLD as a registered charity to avoid paying tax and get to pocket money from offering this particular service. Should this be the case i am appauled at how such a suggestion could be made. It certainly highlights the many assumptions that are being made here with little thought of how these are affecting people.

For the record I make no money through this service or any other provided through BPDWORLD. I offer my services along with many others as a volunteer, I have done so for many years and in fact its actually the money i earn through other professional commitments that keeps BPDWORLD running.

[Fairy]

Hey Josh,

The clarification you sought was already in posts I had written, I was not denying you, I was just unwillinging to repeat. I used the word "debate", you then last night used the word "argument". This worried me greatly, and as you were asking me to repeat, some hours later, I felt it was a bad situation. The use of the word "argument", to me, denoted it was personal, I was uncomfortable with this. I agree, this is a debate. I did not introduce the word "argument", you did.

Fairy xxx

[Joshua]

Fairy - I am sorry if you feel this has got personal for you.

The context in which i used this word was in debate. To me a debate is to argue opposing views.

The dictionary states a debate is to "discuss opposing reasons; argue"

[Fairy]

I understand Josh, I tend to use the word "argument" when it is personal. I appreciate it does not have to mean that. I felt that once that was said, as I do not wish to argue with you, but "debate", it was personal.

A misunderstanding on my part.

Fairy xxx

[Nina of the Light]

This thread has become tiresome.

While everyone is here debating... there are people going without support on our boards.

Let's refocus our energies.

[gun_747]

Joshua,

The enormity of this topic is paramount...many people have expressed concerns. I looked initially at the tax status because thats my profession...I see it often with "big" churches...selling products and charging the price for them but instead of saying this book will cost you £10 they say it can be yours for a "donation/gift" of £10...and this excludes them from tax upon income from that sale and gives more money to the cause. Its the scrupulous methods used by these sorts of people to manipulate people...often by the use of "if you want to get healed then donate all your money from your cards to show how great your faith is" in order to extract money from poor and vulnerable people.

People with BPD, although most are clearly intelligent (as can be posited from this thread alone) are also subject to manipulation (pay such amounts to be "accepted", to access a service, to allievate your fears of whats happening to you...to me Joshua the initial service of £30 chargeable to not fair...and I do have authority to review your publically held accounts held in the charities commision (as all charitable organisations must do so to maintain their tax exempt status) and raise concerns with appropriate FSA advisors should I feel that vulnerable people are being targeted.

Joshua I do this, not to hurt you, but to protect others on this site...asking for donations as you have done in the past is perfectly legitimate, seeking sponsorships to gain more funds and advertising - great funding opportunties...and even gaining tax relief upon them and 20/80th additions from the government is commendable...but to manipulate those struggling by saying - let me diagnose you - and you are a sufferer of BPD yourself is just immoral never mind unethical.

I apologise to others, but it needed to be said

[Joshua]

This thread has become tiresome.

While everyone is here debating... there are people going without support on our boards.

Let's refocus our energies.

I agree Nina, I am not quite sure where this thread is going, or can go. An allegation of unethical practise has been made. Which if im to understand it correctly was refering to a service in which formal diagnosis was made or suggested to be made. I have made it perfectly clear (and the members who have argued this point have accepted) that this is not what has been or is currently happening. The wording of the page was said to state that this was not a formal diagnosis on offer but it was also said that some members felt the wording was not clear enough. Although i didnt believe this to be the case, i took on board the members comments and made every effort to make the wording even clearer.

[Joshua]

Gun

I have nothing to hide and am accountable for my actions. Should you feel the need to engage in such actions this is your right.

Also it is not just you who has the 'authority' to examine charities accounts i believe this is the right of any individual who applies for them through the charities commision.

[gun_747]

Nina, and those reading..

I do apologise wholeheartedly for any misgivings, inadequacies or any other feelings you may have in my posts...most that know me here know that I come on here to help and encourage others because I love to do so...it is just something that has bothered me and since it was being debated I wanted to add to the debate

I do apologise for any inconvenience I have caused...I need to retire from the thread for I shall not be the cause of any more misgivings but I stand by my convictions as a trained professional.

May I add, true anyone can review accounts held by charities, but I have had experience in reviewing corporate accounts which I have legal right to do so under the Companies Act 1985 (cc s389A CA 1989) and my status gives my concerns weighting to the Financial Services Authority should I suspect any illicit or unethical activity.

[Aamanee]

We find this upsetting that money is being taken from people who are ill and is used in an unethical way

I have to agree to what gun and the others have said

Aamanee

[amy123]

i agree with the people on this thread.

i must say though that it comes across josh that you are taking advantage of people who have mental illnesses,which in my mind is sick.

Amy xx

[Joshua]

I will deal with issues relating to personal attacks/derogatory comments tomorrow as I now must sleep. Its not acceptable to make comments about people that are unfounded and in a public arena.

Should you feel the ethos of these forums is to take advantage of people with mental illness I can only ask you to consider the benefit of using such a resource and consider leaving.

[Paris]

I have to agree with Nina here, i also question why people who are attacking the owner of the site who does a lot of good work may I add why are you all still using the site?

[Fairy]

One aspect of the site, and even if I didn't I would still not want this service to exist. Much like I don't want people to be mislead, even though I may not be myself. It is a concern about this service, that is what we are debating.

Fairy xxx

[gun_747]

Paris,

I respond even though I am part of this site, because I live in a democratic country, where a debate was opened and left open for people to talk and discuss points...I have only one issue...I've raised it and I was asked for clarification, and I provided it. If people agree or disagree with me then so be it. But I am not going to be gagged or leave just because some things I say are difficult to hear. I have contributed to this site, not as much as Josh and the staff members obviously (whom I do respect for the help they have given to others on here) but I have and people contribute to me - two-way community support and I have given more than I receive...proud to do so...but if I have an issue which i feel I want to raise Im not going to be threatened or silenced.

I say my words to help others not hinder. I suggest if you don't want debate paris please go to Iran or China.

[Rael]

i appreciate that people want to debate and hopefully resolve these things and would never want to take away people's right to do this, but while this is happening and people are busy reading this someone has posted in crisis. please remember that there are people that have come for support.

xxx

[Paris]

Paris,

I respond even though I am part of this site, because I live in a democratic country, where a debate was opened and left open for people to talk and discuss points...I have only one issue...I've raised it and I was asked for clarification, and I provided it. If people agree or disagree with me then so be it. But I am not going to be gagged or leave just because some things I say are difficult to hear. I have contributed to this site, not as much as Josh and the staff members obviously (whom I do respect for the help they have given to others on here) but I have and people contribute to me - two-way community support and I have given more than I receive...proud to do so...but if I have an issue which i feel I want to raise Im not going to be threatened or silenced.

I say my words to help others not hinder. I suggest if you don't want debate paris please go to Iran or China.

as i also wanted to have my say i dont think you need to make this a personal attack on me thankyou very much

[gun_747]

sorry Im not going to make a response on it...I edit my post...I remove myself from the thread...accepting serious points raised.

[dizze]

Hi all on this thread.

Well just want to say that i agree with nina and rael that while this debate or what ever you want to call it was going on people were in crisis and that should take priority and maybe i should shut up now :(

[Tray]

now i have been flitting throu and reading bits. incl the original thread that got closed, and in my opinion rightly so...

this is a forum for people who suffer froim BPD, why would anyone who doesnt suffer directly, or have a close relationship to someone who does, join this site and then complain that an online diagnosis wil cost money?

i for one wouldnt join a site unless it had a specific relevance to my situation. It does seem to me that some members of the general public will join site's on a whim and get dx for everythin they can, then complain if they dont get the correct answer or have to pay...

there isnt a forum part that says 'post here if u aint got a MH prob but think you might have even tho u aint seen anyone and just want to complain or pick up tips on how to behave when you go see your dr' is there?

what josh is offering aint against the law, but personally i wouldnt take the test, regardless of whether it cost or not because i along with the majority of people on here have a firm dx so why would we need to??? its like being a mechanice and asking someone else to confirm whats wrong with your car and then moaning cause you have to pay...

i can see some people are upset, but first and foremost, this is a support site, and a charity, one that doesnt get much funding... maybe our energies would be best used in lobbying the government for adequate funding for all area's of MH inc this site, so we all get the care we so rightly need and deserve...

[Fairy]

I am sorry if anyone who was in a crisis situation felt ignored last night, I find that upsetting, this is indeed a support site.

I still feel this debate is valid, although obviously it will distract from other topics whilst people feel so strongly. I guess my point is, people who may use this diagnostics service are also in crisis, and although we can't name them,or necessarilly know them, they are people in pain. In my opinion paying money for nothing. This is also upsetting.

The original person who posted, and who's thread was closed, I do not fully agree with, as I stated earlier. I think they were someone who looked, and was shocked such a "service" exists, attached to a charity, in the UK. I was shocked when I came across the diagnostics webpage a few months ago. I have also asked alot of people in my life what they think, as I wanted to know if it was just my feelings, or whether it is viewed as unethical by people who's opinions matter to me. When I received that validation from the people in my life, and then saw the other poster, I decided to raise this debate.

I have the opinion, charging £30, for validation is unethical. It goes against my feelings of empowering people. If someone is suffering, they need encouragement to see a doctor, I believe that encouragement can be free. Also, to me, the question hangs heavy about what information can be gleaned from a questionaire regarding a complex mental health problem. If such a service existed for cancer, that would seem ludicrous. Many of us here worry so much about our physical health, often believing we have all kinds of serious illness. If we were asked to complete a questionaire on a day when we were feeling paranoid, we could on paper, meet a liklihood of having some serious physical issue, that we don't have. BPD overlaps with many other illnesses, I myself have just been re-diagnosed bipolar. I have been told by many psychiatrists that BPD, bipolar and other MH problems overlap so much, it often depends on the doctor diagnosing, as with MH a diagnosis is subjective. As Stevie wrote last night, the risk of saying to someone that they may have BPD, through this diagnostics service, and the effect that could have, is worrying. If they don't, they may believe they do, and that is so upsetting. They may enter in to all kinds of conflict with their NHS services, all because of a questionaire they filled out. Surely anyone seeking validation should be pointed towards a therapist or doctor, not stopping off to pay £30 first. Yokie raised a point about charging for such a service also hints at a validity that is not true, I agree with this also.

Fairy xxx