Rage

[hummm_mabbe]

You dont "manage" anger

You dont blot it out with drugs

You dont manipulate it away with cognitive techniques

Age doesnt sear it permanently into your mind. Any grudge can be righted. Any injustice can be addressed - no matter how many years pass. The problem is when the victim doesnt even realise they've been had - and instead, blames themself.

You get it out, you say it, you rant, you admit what happened, you scream - at the ORIGINAL THING that put it there.

It wasnt the guys on the bus. It wasnt the hoover. It wasnt the inland revenue. Its ALWAYS someone who put it there when you were too young to know any different, and now layers of shame and fear work like clockwork and out of your conscious awareness, stuffing it all down, pulling the strings so it leaks out at random, unimportant targets and then overpaid psychiatrists get £100k a year to tell you you need to 'manage' it.

And amazingly, this makes us MORE angry.

The only problem I have is the fear of letting it out, at the right people, in front of the right people. Those real core things I havent done it for yet, but I will, and its coming. I feel it, day by day.

Anger management is the biggest crock to come out of psychotherapy. Its their way of saying "its not nice for everyone else when you get angry, so I want to drug you and make you lie to yourself so that you dont shout anymore. I'm going to program you so that youre acceptable to the rest of the world, just like all these people I get paid to give sedatives to and lock away in a ward".

Crap.

[walker]

Anger management is the biggest crock to come out of psychotherapy. Its their way of saying "its not nice for everyone else when you get angry, so I want to drug you and make you lie to yourself so that you dont shout anymore. I'm going to program you so that youre acceptable to the rest of the world, just like all these people I get paid to give sedatives to and lock away in a ward".

its the smae as i was taught as a kid

still being told now

badbadbad

[sundries]

when it comes to anger it doesnt matter who did what to you originally.

What matters is how you manage your anger and how you would have managed it if youd known good ways of managing it then.

just cos something happened to you in the past doesnt mean its a free for all express your anger as pathologically as you can.

Imagine the same thing happening again. As an adult or as you are now. It is still you who have the power how you manage your anger, you who have the power to learn healthier ways of dealing with anger. The fact the 'event' you are dealing with is in the past doesnt alter the fact that you are responding to it, replaying it in your mind, with poor anger management skills.

I dont think mental health professionals offering anger management training is a way of telling you to shut up or stuff down. What it is doing is giving you the power (or techiniques/ congitive strategies etc...) to actually deal with the rage.

YEs maybe you werent allowed to express anger at some past event.

Maybe if you had been allowed to you would have ranted raved screamed lashed out for months.

That doesnt mean ranting and raging and destroying things would have been a healthy or mature response.

THe psychs teaching you management skills are giving you the power over your anger, giving you an adult way of responding a way that means you are master of the anger rather than the anger consuming and controlling you like it would a toddler.

And one of the reasons abuse is so awful for children is that, as we all recognise, they havent yet learned (or matured enough) to have been taught and developed anger management and control, so instead the anger controls them.

The aim for hcildren though is to learn those strategies.

I dont see how you can knock the psych services for giving people what they missed out on and were in even more need of than the average child.

[jenga]

As I read through the last few posts, I find myself alternating between agreeing and disagreeing with various statements, but I will refrain from addressing them all.

Perhaps managing anger is something we need to do in between- while we are healing and trying to come to terms with the past. I agree that it is probably not good to leave the cause unaddressed, because these deep roots are quite powerful in our lives. You don't/can't have the opportunity when you are young to really deal with them. But i also don't think we can expect children to learn to "manage" these things, because that in itself invalidates their reality. No one should feel guilty for feeling and reacting to what is; that is placing the responsibilty where it does not belong. I am NOT saying that we are not responsible for ourselves, or that we shouldn't learn how to self soothe, but I just don't think people who have gone through such personal traumas should bear the brunt of them without being allowed to address the cause and therefore relieve themselves of some of the guilt etc..

As an adult seeking peace, yes, it is important to know how to deal with your feelings in ways that will not make things worse for you, or hinder your healing. But as I suggested, maybe these coping skills are what's needed for that, in order to let the process of getting better continue. Ultimately, though, it more often comes back to the source. For example, it wasn't until I really got angry at my mother, instead of only feeling hurt, that I was able to adjust my relationship with her so that it did not continue. And that's still a struggle. I still need to cry and be really sad sometimes too. I mean, I do think I NEED it, and if I push it awa for too long it ultimately makes me feel worse.

I don't think that the different sides of the issue necessarily negate each other, and I see the need for both. I think we could all agree that the main goal is to be free from pain, to feel peace and not anger, and that the journey to this varies for each of us. We have complicated pasts, and there are no simple answers.. For me, I needed to get angry, and I need to get angrier. But in the meantime, I need to help myself deal on a day to day basis, so as not to let my anger interfere with my efforts and the things I need to make me feel better, to fill up the holes with peace and be rid of the angst that holds me back.

[icu_baby]

I would have loved to do the Anger Management tour with Eminem...that would have helped me heaps.

He is one guy that really knows how to manage his anger.

[walker]

jenga, yes, manage it and feel it

both

I manage it mostly, not as effectively as I could, but ok for th most part, outside the house, inside even - I need to learn to use it

but i need permission to feel it, someone to say 'its ok'

each time someone says no, that is not acceptable, shouting, or swearing or whaever, t - hey are hotlining right back ino the past, a place of controlled emotions and criticism. once they say those things, i am lost, back years, curling up and doing whatevver they say

taking meds will help contorl, and help others,

but the anger will lay in waiting

[hummm_mabbe]

Wanna know something? YEARS of trying to use cognitive behavioural (and more latterly, dialectical ones from books) techniques has failed, in the long run, to heal my anger. Did I ;fail' at using the techniques? Am I just 'broken beyond repair'? Or was I in fact just too afraid and deluded up to this point to actually accept that there were deeper reasons behind my anger, ones put there by people I was too afraid to mention? People I had to protect because I had a childlike fear of sufggesting they may be responsible? Or perhaps because they succeeded in placing such GUILT inside of me, that even as an adult I am afraid of looking there? That as an adult, I still fear expressing my emotions, my feelings - especially ANGER because it was a 'bad' feeling I wasnt meant to show? After years of realising the techniques dont work, I realised I needed something else. I needed to stop LYING to myself.

Well, for me its necessary to express it and get it out in therapy. Im not fussed if others dont agree, but every book I have read outside of behavioural therapies, and my experience in life, tells me that I need to get those original hurts and injustices out, and YES that means idenifying and getting angry at those that originally did it.

I dont have to express it TO THEM - I just need to say it, in front of someone who cares. I dont need to be scared that mummy or daddy wont like me if I get angry anymore, because they wont even be there when it happens.

I dont have to lie to myself about the past for the sake of keeping the peace anymore.

Once the orignal anger is gone, the fire that drives all those pointless outbursts will be gone. I wont need to 'manage' anymore because it will be gone. Behavioural therapy will be pointless because it wont be needed. This is the experience of many thousands of people who stop hiding from the past and sticking only to 'techniques'. Things will still make me angry - but my reactions will no longer be out of proportion to the event - the baggage of the past that acts as fuel to each new frsutration will no longer be there. I am free to be assertive, instead of raging. I am more able to be reasonable, instead of seeing this new person as a black-or-white, angel-or-demon aggressor to be destroyed. The fuel that drives my out of proportion reactions will be GONE and I no longer have to 'manage'.

People here have utterly misinterpreted what I was talking about. I was NOT saying "its ok to go round raging at people". I was saying "get the original hurt out, because thats the one that adds DISPROPORTIONATE FIRE to the current injustices you feel". I am not saying "take everyones head off when they upset you" - Im saying get the original anger out in therapy.

Uncontrolled anger at others, anger that is out of proprtion to the initiating event - is PROJECTION. You are placing all that unhealed anger from the past into this new problem. 'Anger management' makes you stuff it so the new person does not bear the brunt of the full force of your past. A good thing, a laudable aim - but you STILL have all that stuffed up anger stuck inside whether you 'succeeded' in 'managing your anger' at that moment or not. If you are scared of expressing anger because your parents punished, shamed or looked down on you when you did, or told you that "good girls / boys dont get angry", then you need to get over your fear of confrontation and of expressing your emotions, let go of the shallow therapies that tell you you can magic your emotions away, and finally release yourself from the toxic messages youvebeen carrying for decades.

People seem to see this false choice between two options: 1) You must use techniwues to control anger 2) That or you are forever broken if the techniques dont work. But this ignores the third option 3) Your anger is out of proprtion because you never healed the original, unexpressed injustices of the past. Many folks say "oh I dont need to bother with that silly freudian business - I dont need to look at my past - after all, now we have behavioural therapies". When they see that the behaviourals havent worked, they presume they must be broken. But they havent even tried option 3 to find out if their view that "you should let byegones be byegones, you cant change the past" is right or not. Youc ant change the past - correct - but you can let out the grief that it placed there that you never were allowed to release before. There IS sense in crying over spilt milk, if that milk was something very significant to you. This is an invalidating message - theres no point in being upset. What if you ARE upset? I dont need to remind anyone that invalidation is considered one of the core experiences of BPD - so why do it to yourself by denying that past hurts should be appropriately grieved over? Are you afraid to go there? I would imagine you are - I was. Everyone is. Thats why its HARD.

Less shallow therapies let you exorcise the oroginal anger, in a safe place, so that the fire is no longer there to power the new interactions. You diont need to 'manage' anymore - instead you have healthy, appropriate responses to slights and frustrations. For me this means I can show a HEALTHY level of anger, which even behavioural therapies agree is a good thing.

[bibiddi]

My personal view on anger and rage is that its best to 'manage' it from various angles.

The immediate strike of anger often becomes second nature, and does need 'relearning'. Sure, the depth is from the past, but the behaviour is in the here and now.

For example, (this isn't what happened to me), if my parents used to put drugs in my morning porridge, to sedate me, and even though I knew it was happening I couldn't do anything about it. If, as an adult, I get given porridge one morning to eat, I may get angry and react strongly at that person, through fear of what happened in the past.

No matter how much I have addressed the past, and gotten angry with the parents, I may still fear that the person - in the hear and now - has similar intent to sedate me.

Anger management/ cognitive techniques would be to slow the situation down, assess the situation realistically - do I actually think this person wants me drugged? what evidence is there to back up my fear? Is it a realistic reaction?

I do not feel its a question of bad behaviour, its a behaviour that was suitable at one time, but doesn't always apply to every situation.

Anger, whether physical or verbal can have long term consequences on other people.

I do not believe it is fair to damage others, simply because I haven't gotten angry with my past.

I think Josh used to have a tag line saying something along the lines of - our past can explain our behaviour, but it cannot excuse it.

I believe if we get angry or rage, we should do our best to change it. Look at the past, but also learn to slow the reaction down, and consider whether it is appropriate.

Anger has always been a major problem for me, but slowing reactions down has helped me more than anything else - it really has been a relearning scenario. I did feel for a while that I could never get angry ever again. But I have learnt that, sometimes I have every right to be angry. I am also learning to express my anger earlier, and in a more constructive way. I still fear conflict, but its getting better.

[sapphire]

Your parents did WHAT ???????????????????????

O.M.G. ((((((((((((((huge HUGS))))))))))))))))))

love Sapphy xxx

[bibiddi]

nooo... they didnt.

I chose an example that wasnt my own issue - but Shannon Matthews mum did it, so i knew it was a real life thing.

But thanks for the hugs.

Hugs back at ya, for being so nice.

[hummm_mabbe]

My personal view on anger and rage is that its best to 'manage' it from various angles.

The immediate strike of anger often becomes second nature, and does need 'relearning'. Sure, the depth is from the past, but the behaviour is in the here and now.

For example, (this isn't what happened to me), if my parents used to put drugs in my morning porridge, to sedate me, and even though I knew it was happening I couldn't do anything about it. If, as an adult, I get given porridge one morning to eat, I may get angry and react strongly at that person, through fear of what happened in the past.

No matter how much I have addressed the past, and gotten angry with the parents, I may still fear that the person - in the hear and now - has similar intent to sedate me.

Anger management/ cognitive techniques would be to slow the situation down, assess the situation realistically - do I actually think this person wants me drugged? what evidence is there to back up my fear? Is it a realistic reaction?

I do not feel its a question of bad behaviour, its a behaviour that was suitable at one time, but doesn't always apply to every situation.

Anger, whether physical or verbal can have long term consequences on other people.

I do not believe it is fair to damage others, simply because I haven't gotten angry with my past.

I think Josh used to have a tag line saying something along the lines of - our past can explain our behaviour, but it cannot excuse it.

I believe if we get angry or rage, we should do our best to change it. Look at the past, but also learn to slow the reaction down, and consider whether it is appropriate.

Anger has always been a major problem for me, but slowing reactions down has helped me more than anything else - it really has been a relearning scenario. I did feel for a while that I could never get angry ever again. But I have learnt that, sometimes I have every right to be angry. I am also learning to express my anger earlier, and in a more constructive way. I still fear conflict, but its getting better.

You keep telling me how great behavioural techniques are for solving my problems, whilst blindly ignoring the fact that I keep telling you they have not worked. Why are you unable to accept that this is the case for me - that 5 years of using behavioural methods has not worked? Perhaps I should give them another 3 years, and maybe they will finally kick in - or perhaps they arent the panacea people sem to think they are? Ive tried to use the techniques for a number of years as an interim to protect those others from my anger, but recognised that it is NOT a long term solution.

Yet again, I feel like I have been completely misunderstood, or perhaps just not properly read. This happens a lot here, and I know its because I fuundamentally belive things that others dont agree with. Thats ok, its healthy to have opposing views. However, it would be nice to not have words put in my mouth.

I think that things make us angry in the present. The ideal is that we deal with them appropriately, that is, we dont go around raging at everyone. I have said this clearly, twice now, but it seems that I havent made it clear enough and people STILL think I advicate letting my anger out at random individuals. I dont, I have said it again and again ... so I will say it a third time. I advocate getting that anger out WITH A THERAPIST but aimed at the original angers. I agree with Joshs tagline - yes Im responsible. I take responsibility by keeping in my anger, but in the long term I also know that Im responsible for my recovery. Keeping in the anger is toxic, and so I am being irresponsible to myself. I DO NOT TAKE IT OUT ON OTHERS NOR DO I ADVOCATE THAT. Thats the last time Im going to say it.

I have tried all the methods that folks advocate here. I have been through anger management. But rather than keep hoping on hope that it will "finally kick in", I realised the truth - IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE LONG TERM. For those that are currently in, and so need to rely on the hope that it will eventually work for them, this may be unwanted news. You may want to deny its validity because it scares you to face the possibility that what you are doing might not work, in the same way it did not work for me. I relpased - twice. I have been through these methods time and again. They do not stick, and many therapists agree that this is the case with personality disorders. If you dont have a PD, then maybe this doesnt apply to you. But if you do, its likely it does.

The problem with many folks is that our anger seems out of control. So when we are required to deal with anger appropriately, we find it hard. But as I said above, if there is a ton of ungrieved anger from the past, this fuels and adds rage to CURRENT angers. We cant control current ones because our old ones are a catalyst. The ideal of dealing appropriately is hard to achieve for us. Some say we need anger managament. I say remove the fuel. The problem with anger management is the fuel stays there, and people say "oh well im getting better, but Im still not quite there". How long before they realise its not going to get them there?

The aim in both cases is the same: To be able to react to current problems appropriately and NOT TO RAGE AT PEOPLE or hurt them with our anger. It seems that even though I have said this twice now, people are still misreading what Im saying.

[bibiddi]

Ok, I did write a reply to you hummm, as you were directly using my post.But I have chosen to delete it.

I think primarily what I want to say is, I am upset at you telling people that their therapy doesnt work.

Sure, you believe that the therapies you have been in so far havent helped YOU - but to say it doesnt work FULL STOP, is a dangerous thing.

Therapy works for different people, and depends on where they are emotionally, and what they are struggling with.

You are right, CBT has a poor track record, for people with personality disorders. I know in a different thread I said that only recently have I been able to accept the benefit from what I learnt in my CBT which was about 5 years ago.

If I remember rightly, when you did CBT, you were a strong believer in that too, until you had to do it on your own.

I am always in favour of accepting what therapy is available to you. It may not 'cure' you, but if it lessens the pain, even slightly, then its a positive thing.Its ok, to do several different types of therapy.

But, I view therapy a success, once they are out of therapy, and can live their life without feeling they need more.

Therapies come from theories - thats all they are. Thats why they are constantly changing.

Even a therapy that isnt perfect can help save someones life.

I could never take that away from someone.

Please stop telling people that their therapy doesnt work.

[hummm_mabbe]

Ok, I did write a reply to you hummm, as you were directly using my post.But I have chosen to delete it.

I think primarily what I want to say is, I am upset at you telling people that their therapy doesnt work.

Sure, you believe that the therapies you have been in so far havent helped YOU - but to say it doesnt work FULL STOP, is a dangerous thing.

Therapy works for different people, and depends on where they are emotionally, and what they are struggling with.

You are right, CBT has a poor track record, for people with personality disorders. I know in a different thread I said that only recently have I been able to accept the benefit from what I learnt in my CBT which was about 5 years ago.

If I remember rightly, when you did CBT, you were a strong believer in that too, until you had to do it on your own.

I am always in favour of accepting what therapy is available to you. It may not 'cure' you, but if it lessens the pain, even slightly, then its a positive thing.Its ok, to do several different types of therapy.

But, I view therapy a success, once they are out of therapy, and can live their life without feeling they need more.

Therapies come from theories - thats all they are. Thats why they are constantly changing.

Even a therapy that isnt perfect can help save someones life.

I could never take that away from someone.

Please stop telling people that their therapy doesnt work.

I tell that to people who are actively saying "I tried this and I cant change - help me". I say it to people that say "I keep going to see my CPN, but she doesnt understand me. I feel like I am not being listened to". I say it to people that find behavioural methods to be somehow lacking, and I say it because again and again I read in books that this is the commonly found thing. I say it because I want to save people that frustration that I have had, many times over. Yes there may be folks that dont have this experience, but I tend to see more people that HAVE had this experience. The ones that tend to be extemely pro behavioural therapy tend to be the ones that are currently having it, and I can appreciate that my words to them may be disheartening. The thing is, I am not writing to them. If they belive that their therapy will work, they will work at it. Thatts the idea of a therapist - to encourage. Are my words really so influential that a person who is already having that therapy will give up?

You have not read all of my posts, but have mentally logged the ones where I have said tings you dont like. You may have missed the ones where I am positive about behavioral therapies. You have clearly missed the ones where I have said "yeah DBT is good, give it a go". I may have followed up with "this may be the only the first part of your recovery story", but that is hardly saying it does not work. FOR ME anger management does not work, and I have read many other posts where people say the same things - where yet again they have been overcome and things are too much, and the DBT isnt helping.

You may not have seen some of my recent posts where I talk about the stages of recovery, and that many therapists belive that behavioural type therapies are only ONE stage of recovery, especially in personality disorders. However, many people here get told that if they do DBT, they will be 100 better. They get told this by the NHS who are often well aware that other therapies may be needed, but are not going to be offered. I think that is a very common scenario on here. However, I have been saying that behavioural therapies have a place in recovery. You yourself have had emotional therapies too if I remember rightly, but somehow you always seem to attritubute your healing only to the behavioural ones.

The point I am am trying to reinforce is that for personality disorders, behavioural therapies are only one stage. They are not the final cure that they are posted as.

I would say to anyone "Do DBT, Do CBT". I would just add "if you find that after you finish, you relapse, then do not feel as though you are irreparable, beyonf help - behavioural therapies are only one part of the story". I WAS told by the NHS that I was irrepareble when CBT wouldnt work, that I would be on drugs for my life. They were wrong, but I See plenty of people fed this same line, and I see those people despairing.

In terms of empirical evidence, that is, what is seen to work, a combination of both behavioural AND emotional therapies is needed for personality disorder. Correct me if Im wrong, but is that not what you have had - both therapies?

I dont mean t imply that behavioural therapies have no place - I mean to ensure that their claim, mainly put forward by the NHS, that they are all you need if you have BPD, does not stand up to the reality of many peoples experiences - and rather than let folks get to that stage of feeling "oh no! Im hopeless because my doctors tell me so", my aim is to make them aware that its not true.

I do not say that behavioural therapies dont work, i say that they are only one part of the answer, but that medics maintain, against the evidence, that they are all you need. This is not true, even with DBT. Having faith in our therapy is important, but in the same way as you are telling me that my words are dangerous, I belive its dangerous to tell someone that as long as they 'do well' at their therapy they will be ok. When DBT or CBT does not work, people seem to blame themselves, and given the still intolerant attitude of many medics towards BPD, my aim is always to fight that invalidating message.

Perhaps you identify or tend to filter out messages from me most strongly when I seem to disagree with your views, and thats why you have only noticed when I seem to say "behavioiural therapies dont work" and missed the times when I have been positive about them.

[bibiddi]

You dont "manage" anger

You dont blot it out with drugs

You dont manipulate it away with cognitive techniques

Age doesnt sear it permanently into your mind. Any grudge can be righted. Any injustice can be addressed - no matter how many years pass. The problem is when the victim doesnt even realise they've been had - and instead, blames themself.

You get it out, you say it, you rant, you admit what happened, you scream - at the ORIGINAL THING that put it there.

It wasnt the guys on the bus. It wasnt the hoover. It wasnt the inland revenue. Its ALWAYS someone who put it there when you were too young to know any different, and now layers of shame and fear work like clockwork and out of your conscious awareness, stuffing it all down, pulling the strings so it leaks out at random, unimportant targets and then overpaid psychiatrists get £100k a year to tell you you need to 'manage' it.

And amazingly, this makes us MORE angry.

The only problem I have is the fear of letting it out, at the right people, in front of the right people. Those real core things I havent done it for yet, but I will, and its coming. I feel it, day by day.

Anger management is the biggest crock to come out of psychotherapy. Its their way of saying "its not nice for everyone else when you get angry, so I want to drug you and make you lie to yourself so that you dont shout anymore. I'm going to program you so that youre acceptable to the rest of the world, just like all these people I get paid to give sedatives to and lock away in a ward".

Crap.

[hummm_mabbe]

Is anger management not just one corner of one type of therapy?

Anger management is not DBT, its not CBT. Its one technique buried in amongst a myriad of theories or methods. By feeling that anger management does not work (in fact, I find it extremely invalidating and ignorant of real feelings) I am not writing off DBT or CBT. There are a couple of areas of psychodynamic I dont like, especially stuff like oedipus complexes and I would totally reject that, but it doesnt mean that I think the whole therapy is shit.

In addition, this is one post out of many that I have made, and in case you hadnt noticed, this whole thread was about me needing to express how I was feeling. Needing support - not correction. That feeling, at the moment in my life, is one of elevated anger because more of this stuff is coming out for me. I have used extreme wording because I was feeling upset and angry, as my original post suggested.

You wanted a discussion in a post where I wanted support, and you got one. At the same time, I was already feeling upset. If you had read any of my other posts yesterday, you would have seen it was my birthday and I was feeling terrible about it - I was alone, I felt depressed and I felt angry. I was feeling very upset all day, and wanted support. What I got was people telling me I have no right to express my anger at others, when I had never even suggested this was what I wanted to do. People preusmed to know what I was thinking, I found that invalidating. In your drive to show me the error of my ways, you forgot to check what I was actually feeling when I wrote that comment. You forgot one of the rules of anger management - empathy.

If you had felt the need to check my comments, you are after all a mod. You could have PM'd me. You could have asked me to give more caveats when I make statements about behavioural therapies. But I think instead, you just felt annoyed at me for saying smething you disagreed with and felt passionately about, and chose to make those comments publicly.

I will add more caveats to what I say, but I would add that your anger management methods dont seem to be working for you at this moment. I Admit mine dont, that is why I was seeking some support.

[buddah]

i cant remember who it was that said it. im sure google would know.. but

"depression is just anger without the enthusiasm"

i think that that is true. we are all just moments away from going bat poo crazy on some mofo for nothing more than an ill directed glance or misinterpretted comment. all the while knowing that you are not angry at this person your angry at yourself. it sucks frankly. there is nothing that makes me more angry than not knowing why im angry, you know?

[hummm_mabbe]

i cant remember who it was that said it. im sure google would know.. but

"depression is just anger without the enthusiasm"

i think that that is true. we are all just moments away from going bat poo crazy on some mofo for nothing more than an ill directed glance or misinterpretted comment. all the while knowing that you are not angry at this person your angry at yourself. it sucks frankly. there is nothing that makes me more angry than not knowing why im angry, you know?

Ok lol Bat poo crazy made me laugh

Yep thats pretty much how I see it too - not knowing why theres all this anger inside. Thats what I am trying to get out, in therapy. So much of it is kinna behind curtains, shame, guilt, repression la la la, and its taking time to come out. But it does little by little, and when it does I go "oh wow, thats why I am so pissed off". A little bit of that reservoir of anger gets drained, but I know theres lots - a lifetime. Little by little tis coming out.

In the meantime I have to try to keep the bat poo in one place :)

[bibiddi]

You dont "manage" anger

You dont blot it out with drugs

You dont manipulate it away with cognitive techniques

As you only spoke about the anger management, I have highlighted a part when you talk about other methods.

I'm not passionate about therapy, I do feel it works, but it has to be at the right time for the person. If its not the right time, then its ok for someone not to engage with it.

Hummm, I'm not a mod, I'm a mini mod - all we do is make spam invisible. Its a way I can help this site. I have no real powers.

I'm not angry with you, I am sad when you say that other therapies dont work, especially when they are having difficulties with it. I think running is a common theme, a lot of us run when it gets difficult.

The only reason I mentioned it in this thread, was because of your strongly worded post.

I did know it was your Birthday yesterday, and what you said in how you were feeling. Birthdays can be rough. I was about to say, its something I like to hear more about you, how you are feeling, but I am bad at doing that too - thats my paranoia at someone recognising me.

Thinking about it even more - There may be something in it, that when you say that for example CBT doesnt work, and I know it has worked for me, then where does that leave me? I feel rejected. (Oh, interesting - in a self absorbed kind of way).

I also know, CBT was my first therapy, and I was so very close to killing myself, I had everything planned - but with the therapy - I felt heard, and they understood where I was emotionally.So, when I eventually left, I may not have changed my thinking, or behaviour, but I had a little glimmer of hope. And that glimmer saved my life.

It scares the heck out of me, that people may not take the risk of therapy, and therefore never receive that glimmer of hope.

[hummm_mabbe]

You dont "manage" anger

You dont blot it out with drugs

You dont manipulate it away with cognitive techniques

As you only spoke about the anger management, I have highlighted a part when you talk about other methods.

I'm not passionate about therapy, I do feel it works, but it has to be at the right time for the person. If its not the right time, then its ok for someone not to engage with it.

Hummm, I'm not a mod, I'm a mini mod - all we do is make spam invisible. Its a way I can help this site. I have no real powers.

I'm not angry with you, I am sad when you say that other therapies dont work, especially when they are having difficulties with it. I think running is a common theme, a lot of us run when it gets difficult.

The only reason I mentioned it in this thread, was because of your strongly worded post.

I did know it was your Birthday yesterday, and what you said in how you were feeling. Birthdays can be rough. I was about to say, its something I like to hear more about you, how you are feeling, but I am bad at doing that too - thats my paranoia at someone recognising me.

Thinking about it even more - There may be something in it, that when you say that for example CBT doesnt work, and I know it has worked for me, then where does that leave me? I feel rejected. (Oh, interesting - in a self absorbed kind of way).

I also know, CBT was my first therapy, and I was so very close to killing myself, I had everything planned - but with the therapy - I felt heard, and they understood where I was emotionally.So, when I eventually left, I may not have changed my thinking, or behaviour, but I had a little glimmer of hope. And that glimmer saved my life.

It scares the heck out of me, that people may not take the risk of therapy, and therefore never receive that glimmer of hope.

Thank you for the honesty, I feel like I appreciate where you are coming from much more now and understand why my words may have been upsetting to you. Knowing that CBT saved your life is a huge reason to have belief in it, and Im glad it did that for you. As you said above, CBT DID help me very well, but it was actually the quality of the therapist that made that difference. My reasoning for this is that when I tried to do it alone, and when I tried it with a different therapist, it did not work even though it was the same method. Somehow, the person that did it was the key, but it was by accident - an unrepeatable accident.

I just feel from experience and reading that the emotional therapies recognise the importance both of the therapy relationship - and in particular call attention to its importance, especially as it relates to emotional needs which CBT had left me clueless about. Because my good CBT guy didnt point it out, when I relapsed I did not know why. I floundered for years until I found out why it happened through emotions based therapies. You can imagine how lost I felt for so many years, years in which I lost an extremely promising career waiting for the NHS to make up their minds. This period of time took me to the brink, I belive, of psychosis, when I had never had anything like that. CBT did trim off the edges for a while, and set me right on some issues, but the major disappoitnment was to relapse without knowing why. AS it took many years to figure it out, I am now very vocal about it. Perhaps sometimes I go a bit too far, and so I will try to add more caveats to what I say.

I think that anything that offers hope is extremely important, and when talking to people online that clearly have no other option than to take CBT or DBT, I think it is a great first step - as you say, a possible life saver. But if I only ever direct my comments to those that are possibly in the situation you desrcibe, then I ignore the many others who may be in the position that I am talking about, of feeling stuck, that its their fault, and all the messages about being useless and bad are being reifnorced. Its not that I feel I have an obligation or anything, I just find myself very strongly identifying with folks who are stuck and frustrated, possibly hopeless, because its a feeling I know well. I tend to chase after that feeling, and may forget the possibility that some others may take what Im saying as a complete dismissal. I dont - I just think its only one part of recovery, and when I see folks struggling as I did, I feel compelled to share my experience.

I see what you are saying - when I make certain comments, I need to be aware of the potetnail audiences that are reading them. My own experiences make me very passionate, as do yours and so I tend to ficus on the group that most concerns me. In this thread however, I kind of lost touch with rationality for a moment. I did feel at the time it was out of character, but Ive been doing a few things like that lately, I think its things coming to the surface.

Anyway, I do appreciate you understanding, and I think its cool that you were able to be nice even when I was getting at you :hug2:

[icu_baby]

"depression is just anger without the enthusiasm"

I absolutely love that. Its better than Frauds "depression is anger turned intwards".

[icu_baby]

First of all I just wanted to give a group hug ((((((((((((((hug))))))))))))))))))))))))

I was reading rossies and biddidies posts and I think that both of you make excellent points and I think that without you guys even knowing it you both expressed yourself very assertively and very caringly and articulately. You both may have unresolved anger issues etc but I think that both of you have strength in that you are able to express it and tell others how you feel which I think is great.

[jenga]

I just posted a new topic about "losing it" a few minutes ago. Then I kept thinking about these posts I have been reading for the last few days, the ones here about rage.

When I was screaming and lashing out tonight, there were a few times during it that I consciously thought to myself "Self, I am acting crazy and irrational and I am being mean and hurtful and pissed off and out of control." Yet, none of the coping or managing techniques even entered the picture. I just HAD to keep going, I felt it through and through. It's like I was aware, and knew what was happening, but I couldn't and/or didn't want to stop. I needed to express my hurt, and it came out as anger.ALmost like I was due for it after holding it together. A purging of sorts. A screaming session to acknowledge that I have lots of shit going on and I am tired of just dealing with it on my own and being expected to.

It was only towards the end that I remember I should maybe take an ativan now to help me get out of this. So, I guess what am saying is.. that re: this discussion, anger management skills can just fly right out the window when you really need them. The pain and hurt need to be expressed perhaps? Am I at a turning point in therapy? I don't know, but I do know that telling me to calm down or that I am overreacting does the opposite of what I need. My "wise mind" just doesn't listen/\.

The thing is, what I need most perhaps- the understanding and validation and patience, is not easily gotten from a person who is being told who hates him etc.. Maybe I do need to be yelling at the right person, but I also think that he is one of them. Oh, I hate having such an isolated world sometimes, but I can't do anything else. Here I am yelling and screaming and crying and feeling hateful, pushing away what I need, because it is not enough and too late and probably not well directed.

I think I got my point across, but it didn't get me anywhere. Now I will have a glass of wine and zone out on some stupid tv. Like I said, I am exhausted.

[AveMaria]

When I was younger...especially when I felt I didn't have much control over my life like when I lived with my ultra controlling parents... I had tons and tons of rage. Different things would make me just go into white hot rages! Now that I have been with my fiance and my rages do absolutely nothing except make him look at me with this horrible look of disgust on his face, I turn everything inward and instead I just totally zone out. If I get too upset I just go into a daze where I don't notice anything going on around me... I just sit there and I dont notice whats around me, people talking to me, anything... I just shut down and don't feel anything. Now he is trying to actually help me feel better and I am not sure... are the rages or the zoning out better ways of coping? Or do they both suck horribly like it seems... I am so confused!

[sapphire]

I totally agree with you Jenga - it's like a switch has been flipped and that's it, you know it's wrong, youknow you look stupid, but you cannot stop.

Maybe the key to the therapy side is to try and stop the switch flicking in the first place - before it's too late ? If I am going that way, hubs chucks an olanzapine down me, which I know is not the right answer, but I haven't learnt the skills to stop the switch - yet.

Sapphy xxx

[icu_baby]

I totally agree with you Jenga - it's like a switch has been flipped and that's it, you know it's wrong, youknow you look stupid, but you cannot stop.

Maybe the key to the therapy side is to try and stop the switch flicking in the first place - before it's too late ? If I am going that way, hubs chucks an olanzapine down me, which I know is not the right answer, but I haven't learnt the skills to stop the switch - yet.

Sapphy xxx

Your hubby chucking down an olanzapine down you...how romantic, lol.