A Nasty Thing

[wednesday]

This does not deal directly with waht you are saying but is closely related. You speak as though you are standing back and observing yourself and assessing your performance when you are with others---Will I be nice/funny /charming/cruel/intelligent etc. I think this is all very judgemental. You are expecting to be judged by others and that you will judge them.

I think mindfulness really helped me here (not all the time I must stress, I still have probs with this) People normally have their own agenda and are not much concerned with others. If you try not to be judgemental about others, even in your mind, you won't be so caught up in what they are thinking about you and you are less likely to present a front.

I read the book about the inner child you recommended and I think that they are right, when you get caught up in the ego, you are doomed to fail. The idea of 'the perfect self' is unattainable and is not really human or desirable..

Is this what the critical you is about?

[hummm_mabbe]

Im not actually feeling or being critical - Im not judging others. Im actually feeling afraid that I am not understood, that because of this I will be alone and have to fend for myself. I cant express this feeling or need though, and instead I keep trying to explain myself, which comes across as criticism, especially as the emotion of fear is not visible.

I very rarely feel judgemental of others, if ever - I tend to view others as perfect and myself as 'all wrong'. However I can feel invalidated and deliberately targeted or critised - again, misunderstood, and that triggers the same feelings. I feel an enormous drive to defend myself, explain what I really meant, so that the person will not abandon me or attack me.

The trouble is it has the opposite effect because I am unable to express what I need and feel properly.

This probably makes no sense at all ....

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Ross

I have read most of what you have written here, and along with the others, agree that you are doing some great work and making progress.

I understand what you mean about the behaviorial things not being the only answers for you here, but I am just curious about 2 things:

1. What do you think IS the "cure it" stage you mention, and

2. What do you mean by the statement "which is to heal them up once and for all"

Thanks

Jenga

When I become my true self, and am no longer acting out trasnference reactions, ungrieved losses and injustices. When I am free of repetition compulsions and self-defeating behavioural loops, because the original hurts and denials that placed them there are healed.

Mindfulness used to work for me, but doesnt anymore - so its time to get to the core. Rebuild the wall instead of just smoothing the cracks in the plaster over. That said, I do use mindfulness for self-understanding and discovery, it just doesnt work for self soothing, for me.

I know these methods are great for many folks, they just arent for me anymore. That doesnt mean Im saying they have no place, Im just saying that they no longer work for me and so its time to change tack. I know I seem critical of behavioural therapies and so on, and Im sorry for that, its something I am trying to change because I know it upsets other folks that are having those therapies. Really, I feel let down by those therapies because I spent so many years using them and then I relapsed, so in all honesty my critcism comes from feeling let down, abandoned and to a certain extent, made to feel ashamed - ecause I "should have been able to make them work".

I did blame myself for some time, "perhaps I am too stuborn, or stupid, maybe thats why they arent working?" But it was none of those, and the emotions based therapies showed me what that was.

However, I realise that I should not let my own experience put other people off. I just think that if something is not working, its time to move on, and that has been my choice.

[hummm_mabbe]

dear Ross

it is amazing to see you battling through this,

and to have you share it with us

it makes so much sense to me, although i am not sure i will ever have your strength

your therapist knew how her words would impact, she saw the pain and confusion it stirred in you

but she has such a deep faith in you, in your strength, and desire to heal, that she took that risk,

she believes you can do it Ross

she wants to be the person to help you do this

and she KNOWS YOU CAN

we are all gathered behind you

watching

many of us hiding, cowering, shaking, for the fear we see in our own lives,

I am so proud for you

so proud

t xx

Wheeee

**glow glow**

[jenga]

Hi Ross

I have read most of what you have written here, and along with the others, agree that you are doing some great work and making progress.

I understand what you mean about the behaviorial things not being the only answers for you here, but I am just curious about 2 things:

1. What do you think IS the "cure it" stage you mention, and

2. What do you mean by the statement "which is to heal them up once and for all"

Thanks

Jenga

When I become my true self, and am no longer acting out trasnference reactions, ungrieved losses and injustices. When I am free of repetition compulsions and self-defeating behavioural loops, because the original hurts and denials that placed them there are healed.

Mindfulness used to work for me, but doesnt anymore - so its time to get to the core. Rebuild the wall instead of just smoothing the cracks in the plaster over. That said, I do use mindfulness for self-understanding and discovery, it just doesnt work for self soothing, for me.

I know these methods are great for many folks, they just arent for me anymore. That doesnt mean Im saying they have no place, Im just saying that they no longer work for me and so its time to change tack. I know I seem critical of behavioural therapies and so on, and Im sorry for that, its something I am trying to change because I know it upsets other folks that are having those therapies. Really, I feel let down by those therapies because I spent so many years using them and then I relapsed, so in all honesty my critcism comes from feeling let down, abandoned and to a certain extent, made to feel ashamed - ecause I "should have been able to make them work".

I did blame myself for some time, "perhaps I am too stuborn, or stupid, maybe thats why they arent working?" But it was none of those, and the emotions based therapies showed me what that was.

However, I realise that I should not let my own experience put other people off. I just think that if something is not working, its time to move on, and that has been my choice.

Hey there Ross

Thanks for your response. Again, I DO get what you are saying your experiences with "mindfulness methods" etc... I don't mean to press you on this issue, and of course you can just ignore this response, but I still don't know what you mean by the healing part..

Are you saying that when you end those "repetition compulsions and self-defeating behavioural loops", you will be "healed."? because it sounds to me like you are saying that WHEN you are healed, you will be able to stop all of these.

If this is true, I guess what I am asking is what exactly do you mean that "the original hurts and denials that placed them there are cured". Cured meaning what? How?

[jenga]

I'm sorry.. I know my posts are being confusing..

I guess what I am wondering is this:

Are you looking to be "cured", and think that is possible? Or are you working to get to the point where you have acknowledged and accepted what has happened in the past, and when you do that, you will be "cured".?

I'm not judging ANY of these possibilities. I know that you think about all of this a lot, and are working very hard. I guess that is why i am so interested in what you think "the bottom line" is for "recovery" or whatever. Do you see this as a place that you will get to, and from then on things change dramatically? If so, then what is that "turning point"? I am confused because I don't know what you think needs to happen first, to create the other. Somehow healing first (?), or doing something else (?) and then healing.

I'm sure I have made myself clear now! Ha! :)

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Jenga

Are you wanting to know so that you can explore it yourself, or are you looking for a proof?

Ive arrived at what I know by reading A LOT of books, but even this means nothing in the face of experience - the feelings that surface. It would genuinely be difficult to put what is an emotional concept into hard, logical language. I think that if you want to learn more about how it works, then take a look at some inner child books, or maybe psychodynamic or schema. There are things that I read at first and thought "no way, thats silly" that I have now experienced and think "wow", such as locked up grief that I dd not know was there, and the effect of experiencing that grief. Its this kind of thing that is very difficult to explain, let alone demonstrate logically.

Equally if you are thinking of exploring it yourself, then its such a large subject area that I dont feel able to do it justice here. Ive posted a lot of threads about feeling emotions I didnt know were there, and emotional shifts that have happened as a result of something else happening. Perhaps some of those would help? Perhaps if some of the terms are a bit odd, a google search will help and maybe start you down a new research path?

Really Im copping out because to explain it would take an EXTREMELY long post ...

[hummm_mabbe]

Ah ok I kind of see what youre after now

When I was using CBT, it was a case of "fake it til you make it", go out and do exposure until things change. That did not happen - it was just "fake it" all the time and it actually reinforced my 'masks', or false selves (schema would call them overcompensations, psychodynamic things like Id or ego). I could change the behaviour, do the mood diaires all I wanted, but underneath the feelings remained the same. This is something commonly found in 'characterological' or personality disordered patients when trying to apply cognitive and behavioural methods - its as though something is written into the fabric of the person, into their DNA. Something more is needed to change this core thing.

With the emotions based therapies, its the other way round. At each stage, its like there is an internal change in the way I feel. For example, feeling a buried emotion from my childhood suddenly makes me see the whole of my life, and self, in a different way. Where before there was self-blame and shame, now there is self-empathy. Other emotions come up that are linked with it, perhaps long buried anger or resentment. Sometimes acute grief. A barrier melts away inside and I can never put it back, and as a result of this, everything is different. Behavours and thoughts follow suit, rather than being the driver.

Its like seeing into another dimension, and its automatic. This is an emotional shift, rather than an intellectual one, and its when you feel this that you then feel ready for the next step. Its an organic process that happens as a result of feeling - once you have the right experience, you just feel ready for the next step.

A series of steps makes a journey.

Books that may be informative:

Healing the child within by Charles Whitfield (or any from this series)

Reinventing Your Life by Klosko and Young

Schema Therapy: A Practitioners Guide by Klosko and Young

On Becoming a Person By Carl Rogers

[hummm_mabbe]

Also I see recovery as an ongoing process - like a growth. First the stunting facors are removed - the things that block my ability to understand others feelings, that cause my paranoia. The traumas and losses that lead me to see others and the world in very dark, frightening ways. When I can let others in, and see them as they truly are without the tinge of the past, then I can finally begin to meet my emotional needs.

As I begin to meet those, so different aims and goals become important, the aims and goals that are currenly impossible. Having a job, doing something that I enjoy with my days, being able to have a romantic relationship. I see recovery as the gradual growth into these things on an ongoing basis. I dont see recovery as a point to get to, but its has stages.

To my mind these stages mirror the growing up that should have happened, but didnt because it was arrested by trauma and ungrieved loss.

Im sorry if this explanation isnt completely satisfying, but its a really hard thing to put into words ... :(

[i_m_yours]

Hummm, is there a transference in Schema Therapy? (i mean, is it crucial point of therapy).

and btw, have you heard of "self psychology" treatment, and "intersubjectivity" ? it is psychoanalysis, so, of course, transference based therapy, and they call transference - "self object" expirience, because the person you are having tranference to - therapist - is your "self-object".

I tried this for 6 months - therapist was uneducated that was maybe a problem - and it looked promessing, but I had no improvement, which makes me sceptical of it all - I mean, I am also not so into behavioral therapies, but complete analysis also didnt work - dont know what to think anymore...

I still believe in "self psychology" but unfortunatelly where I live there are no educated analysts for this.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hummm, is there a transference in Schema Therapy? (i mean, is it crucial point of therapy).

and btw, have you heard of "self psychology" treatment, and "intersubjectivity" ? it is psychoanalysis, so, of course, transference based therapy, and they call transference - "self object" expirience, because the person you are having tranference to - therapist - is your "self-object".

I tried this for 6 months - therapist was uneducated that was maybe a problem - and it looked promessing, but I had no improvement, which makes me sceptical of it all - I mean, I am also not so into behavioral therapies, but complete analysis also didnt work - dont know what to think anymore...

I still believe in "self psychology" but unfortunatelly where I live there are no educated analysts for this.

My poor little thread. Was meant to be about me feeling sad and it got all technical **sigh**

Erm yes schema recognises and uses transference. It also places a large emphasis on the therapeutic relationship and something it calls limited reparenting. Perhaps look this up on google if you're curious because I have explained it a few times on here and it takes quite a lot of time.

[daisy duck]

Hi there you.....

how you feeling today,anymore break throughs?

xxxxxxxx

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi there you.....

how you feeling today,anymore break throughs?

xxxxxxxx

Hi Daisy Dee

Things are changing lately and I feel like Im coming up to something critical, somethings building inside, getting closer to that shamey horrid stuff, because I am feeling it more lately. Got therapy on Monday, so will see what happens.

Im sort of in that "I dont know whats going on with me at the moment" stage ...

[i_m_yours]

uote]

My poor little thread. Was meant to be about me feeling sad and it got all technical **sigh**

Erm yes schema recognises and uses transference. It also places a large emphasis on the therapeutic relationship and something it calls limited reparenting. Perhaps look this up on google if you're curious because I have explained it a few times on here and it takes quite a lot of time.

i am sorry, i was rood, i dont go to boards much and all this english is killing me aaaa - sorry...

btw. i completely understand what happened in your therapy.. it happened to me too.. these are expected things to happen in therapy, because you are trying to "give your best".. and then a bit ignore that "not so good" part of you - which makes relationship between you and T a bit less honest.

so I suppose from now on you will have more honest and intimate relationship to your T, which is really main thing in recovery

;)

[jades]

i award thee the jades bravrey star *ting*

[wednesday]

I do know what you mean about mindfulness and also the 'false' side of any technique which often feel like control mechanisms.

There is a tension here which I have not resolved and I was interested in what you thought. My current T thinks that in repressing my emotions, I am allowing tham to build up and so if they do come out , they might tend to be over the top. If I do let them out though -there is a big risk- I am not used to letting out my emotions in a measured way and I do not trust myself also , I have vulnerabilities which others don't and can therfore take things the wrong way. He thinks I can trust myself a bit more but I think it risks too much--so I watch myself and analyse (CBT/mindfulness) I don't know the answer.

You see, I think that even if we get all our issues resolved, we will not have trained our minds properly. We are not used to looking after ourselves, the part of our brain that self soothes has not developed properly, our automatic thoughts will always drift back to the negative if we don't manage them because there are so many strong negative connections. I think that we need to do the deep work to convince ourselves at a deep level that we are' all right people' but after we do that, I still think we will need to use the more superficial methods to help us manage ourselves.

I think there is a place for both.

[hummm_mabbe]

I do know what you mean about mindfulness and also the 'false' side of any technique which often feel like control mechanisms.

There is a tension here which I have not resolved and I was interested in what you thought. My current T thinks that in repressing my emotions, I am allowing tham to build up and so if they do come out , they might tend to be over the top. If I do let them out though -there is a big risk- I am not used to letting out my emotions in a measured way and I do not trust myself also , I have vulnerabilities which others don't and can therfore take things the wrong way. He thinks I can trust myself a bit more but I think it risks too much--so I watch myself and analyse (CBT/mindfulness) I don't know the answer.

You see, I think that even if we get all our issues resolved, we will not have trained our minds properly. We are not used to looking after ourselves, the part of our brain that self soothes has not developed properly, our automatic thoughts will always drift back to the negative if we don't manage them because there are so many strong negative connections. I think that we need to do the deep work to convince ourselves at a deep level that we are' all right people' but after we do that, I still think we will need to use the more superficial methods to help us manage ourselves.

I think there is a place for both.

Hiya

I think that mabbe your T is being a bit of a chicken and not letting you let it all hang out! Mabbe you seem like a strong woman and he is a bit intimidated I think he should let you be free, to do what you want! Any old time! Loooove meeeee, hoooooldd meeeeeee ...... FREE etc.

Ahem.

I think you are right that there is a place for behavioural methods. I think I often do go to extremes in my statements, which perhaps I shouldnt. With 'schema for BPD', they start with the experiential and emotional stuff to build the base and clear out the poop, and then use behavioural to build the structure, as you say, to put in what was not there. Mindfulness has a role at all stages, and can also act as a guard to help you be aware if you are slipping back to old ways, relapse, if you like. Its also great for ongoing spiritual development, which I would really like to do.

But I do believe, and have experienced, the sensation of those swirling, uncontrollable emotions being gone for long stretches of time. It can happen, but its hard to believe it until you FEEL it!

At the moment, and sorry if what I say seems presumptuous - I feel like you dont have a 'gut belief' in the emotional parts of the therapy you are doing, and that is completely understandable because your T is not helping you to experience it. Maybe there is that niggling sensation underneath that you can never really fully change, and that you must accept that. I think that when you experience the emotional effect of releasing some of these emotions, and the sort of strange re-ordering of other things that seems to accompany them, you will naturally have more faith in how far you can go, how much better you can really be.

I think your T needs to man up and let Wednesday be the full-on woman that she is!

EDIT: Had to correct my stunning typos ...

Oh, also, I dunno if it will help, but I am reading a book at the mo called Overcoming Shame by Windy Dryden. It might be helpful, as I feel a little bit like it may be shame thats stopping you let those feelings out and things, manily because thats what it is / was for me and sometimes I feel like we are a little bit similar Maybe shame has an effect on other areas of your life too? Its based on REBT, the fore-runner to CBT, so will be up the alley of stuff you are already good at :)

[hummm_mabbe]

uote]

My poor little thread. Was meant to be about me feeling sad and it got all technical **sigh**

Erm yes schema recognises and uses transference. It also places a large emphasis on the therapeutic relationship and something it calls limited reparenting. Perhaps look this up on google if you're curious because I have explained it a few times on here and it takes quite a lot of time.

i am sorry, i was rood, i dont go to boards much and all this english is killing me aaaa - sorry...

btw. i completely understand what happened in your therapy.. it happened to me too.. these are expected things to happen in therapy, because you are trying to "give your best".. and then a bit ignore that "not so good" part of you - which makes relationship between you and T a bit less honest.

so I suppose from now on you will have more honest and intimate relationship to your T, which is really main thing in recovery

Thank you, yes I think youre right, there is a sunny side to what happened in therapy, its always easier to see it when other folks point it out

[wednesday]

Hiya

I think that mabbe your T is being a bit of a chicken and not letting you let it all hang out! Mabbe you seem like a strong woman and he is a bit intimidated I think he should let you be free, to do what you want! Any old time! Loooove meeeee, hoooooldd meeeeeee ...... FREE etc.

whoooops

I messed up here- You picked me up wrongly (on rereading I see I was unclear) it is my T who is brave- and its me that's the wimp!!!!

I'm terrified to let go! My T hasn't seen me in shops, to broadband provider, etc for example on a bad day when things go wrong. There I am having a rant --totally ott and suddenly you realise everyone is looking at you. Then you spend such a long time feeling ashamed. No the real me is not nice--It doesn't have proper boundaries or see things from the others perspective. It is over emotional, frightened and unreasonable. When it comes out to play, you end up in the wrong even when you started off being right. I am frightened because of experience- I don't know how to express anger in a positive way. He thinks I should trust myself a little more and think I'm not that different from other people. Its hard to be more natural and yet still selective about when you express emotion.

I'm interested in your new thread -I'll have a look.

My T was going through the shame thing yesterday with me. Its all pretty disturbing. Don't you think it seems so stupid that we could have picked up such ludicrous ideas as children and then based our whole personality, our whole interpretation of the universe and wasted so many years on them? I just feel like crying.

[hummm_mabbe]

I'm terrified to let go! My T hasn't seen me in shops, to broadband provider, etc for example on a bad day when things go wrong. There I am having a rant --totally ott and suddenly you realise everyone is looking at you. Then you spend such a long time feeling ashamed. No the real me is not nice--It doesn't have proper boundaries or see things from the others perspective. It is over emotional, frightened and unreasonable. When it comes out to play, you end up in the wrong even when you started off being right. I am frightened because of experience- I don't know how to express anger in a positive way. He thinks I should trust myself a little more and think I'm not that different from other people. Its hard to be more natural and yet still selective about when you express emotion.

My T was going through the shame thing yesterday with me. Its all pretty disturbing. Don't you think it seems so stupid that we could have picked up such ludicrous ideas as children and then based our whole personality, our whole interpretation of the universe and wasted so many years on them? I just feel like crying.

To my mind, you are poised on the edge of a breathrough. If I can try to join the dots? I am basing this on my own experience and trying to relate it to yours, so if I get it wrong my aplogies

It sounds like you are realising where your shame comes from, but that you are very intolerant of yourself for having internalised it. In a way, it seems like you have little tolerance for little weds as you expect her to have been able to decipher and defend herself against the actions and words of adults, when in fact she was a child who could not have done that because she was little.

So you have all this shame inside, which you blame yourself for to some extent. People deal with shame in lots of different ways, but a big one is with anger. Anger, especially at others, can stop us from feeling shame or at least provide a distraction from it. Shame is following us around, all the time. When others look at us funny, or cross us, or do something that makes us feel they 'see through us', it presses the shame, and then instantly and so quickly that we may not even notice the shame - the anger button. Then, once again, we blame ourselves for having got angry. We should have controlled it, we should have done some other thing, maybe used an empathic statement or some other thing we 'failed' to do. There is a demand that we should NEVER get angry, and of course when you fail to satisfy a demand, you feel ashamed.

When you rewind the process, the shame DID come from early life, and we couldnt have prevented it, because we were children. Voices from the past blame us, make us feel we should be perfect, and dismiss our feelings. They carry on punishing us - the punitive parent mode. But because you have no sympathy for little weds yet, you blame her. Because you blame her, you are ashamed of her, and you side with the punitive parent. PP tells you that if only your T saw what you were REALLY like, he would not be so tolerant. You may even be afraid that the real you will come out in therapy, and blow everything ... an experience I have literally just had (her reaction was of paramount importance it seems - she accepted me and still wants to see me, so my dark, deep awful core that can never be seen, must actually not be so abhorrent after all, yet I was TERRIFIED of it coming out!)

However when you have sympathy for Little weds - because you get to a stage where you actually feel her - your - pain and cry over it, the tables turn. Realising that she was sad, and hurting, makes you see she did not desrve to be shamed, that she could not have possibly done anything to stop it, and that now she needs love, support and the opportunity to feel again. That is the power and purpose of the experiental parts of schema, and its quite possible that until you can feel that, you will carry on believing the punitive parent. Even if you manage to assert yourself perfectly, and manage all interactions with sales staff etc perfectly, you would probably STILL attack yourself anyway - after all, how many 'ok' interactions do you still perhaps pull to pieces even though they were ok?

That is the power of the mode - insatiable, endlessly judgemental, utterly intolerant and utterly, utterly pointless. It has no value - because shame and punishment do not improve people, despite what common sense seems to suggest to some. Encouragement, guidance and support, even when you make mistakes. And thats what your anger is - a simple mistake which is in fact driven by the shame in the first place. Some might not even be bothered by it - but your PP mode tells you that it is a crime up there with murder, and brings the shame and self hatred that goes along with such a crime. More shame, more anger - vicious circle complete. Has shame and punishent so far managed to change you? No? Well then perhaps nurturance, tolerance, acceptance and respect deserve a chance. It may be that you cant do that until you have begun to feel - but if you are ashamed of crying also (and so activating your detached mode to avoid the shame of crying - do you feel 'blank' in therapy at all?) then that is another obstacle, which again the imagery and experiential work is designed to get around.

NB In the practitoners guide, there is a warning to therapists that for people with BPD they can spend the whole time in the detached protector mode. This can appear as a healthy patient to an unsuspecting therapist, and so they are shocked when the person does not seem to progress. They may not belive their stories of freaking out and presume they are just over-reacting, because "they never seem that way in therapy". In fact if they got past the Dp mode, they would see everything the person is talking about.

[wednesday]

And thats what your anger is - a simple mistake which is in fact driven by the shame in the first place.

So true!

How often it is that the things I do that are 'wrong' (the things that I regret not just anger) are all prompted by insecurity in some way, usually about something that I later discover, was nonsense. My T has seen bits of my anger/upset and that led to the massive feelings of insecurity that you were describing. He has experienced the full extent of my fear of abandonment and he was amazingly brilliant about it. I just don't think he sees that in every day life that I can also be like a child.

I totally agree that shame and guilt are entirely negative. They are self hatred. Change comes by being aware of the impacts of your actions, not by guilt. Guilt more often leads to more and more negatives.

I am not ashamed of crying so much as ashamed of some of my feelings. I think we are still trying to find out what all the sources of my shame are. Once we can recognise them, (shame not guilt) I hope that I can be free of them because I will see that they were undeserved.

The anger thing is difficult--noone goes around like a toddler crying and screaming at every turn throughout the day. It seems to be about turning the control button down a bit rather than putting it off altogether.

Thanks for the replies.