Taken A While To Put My Finger On

[hummm_mabbe]

oh how i long to be cool i even think i managed it for a week once when i had my lip pierced and wore a 'disturbed' tshirt lol! but since then i've put on weight and being nearly 40 is decidedly not cool :0

i always wanted to 'fit in' somewhere. at school i was never very popular, at work i was 'a bit odd', i think i felt a bit more comfy in hospital actually and that's a bit worrying. even in group therapy i wanted to be the cool one but never quite managed it. always some-one cooler or more interesting

just don't want to be average, don't want to be 'ok' or acceptable. always wanted some-one to say 'wow' about anything to do with me

yeh to be wanted. for people to have a genuine smile for me, pleased to be in my company and not just awkward.

some of it must be your own perception of yourself though? i mean when i've felt cool then i probably wouldn't have noticed if people where actually sniggering. and when i feel crap i notice every damn eye movement.

for what it's worth i think your robot is well cool x

Yeah that sprt of needing to be noticed. For me it comes across as being arrogant or conceited or spoiled But its hard to kinna accept just 'being'.

Again, the year I had where things were ok, when I was in therapy the first time out, this need went away a lot.

I think it has to do with the fact that I never had anyone there for me, yanno in my family. Just mostly felt invisible.

Poo

[shed]

Yeah that sprt of needing to be noticed. For me it comes across as being arrogant or conceited or spoiled But its hard to kinna accept just 'being'.

Again, the year I had where things were ok, when I was in therapy the first time out, this need went away a lot.

I think it has to do with the fact that I never had anyone there for me, yanno in my family. Just mostly felt invisible.

Poo

[catspiracy]

Ross, I think you are def. the "cool kid" around these parts. Your posts command quite a respectable following. You have a definite personality here that is consistent and sustained throughout all of your threads and posts. And it's a lovable, humane, educated, witty, intelligent, and compassionate one!

My friend started me on the journey to "cool" by telling me something extremely important:

"Don't judge your insides by comparing them to other people's outsides."

It's like Jades said, we think we are dorks but so does the other person unless they're an ass! That thing we think they are doing, that "cool" thing, well it's just a protective coating like our own.

I joined the burning man community in fall of 06 and i was so terrified of the hordes of cool people that I had to hide in my tent and cry. Now I step into a dance party and move straight to the front. I am still the dorky, dark-sided, awkward, weirdo, but I dance like I'm dancing alone in my room and people like it. (I even have vertigo and my dancing involves nearly falling over sometimes but I've incorporated that into my freaky moves LOL). Whatever you do, do it like you're doing it alone in your room and no one's watching you. If someone does peek in on you, they will see you being unselfconscious and THAT's attractive!

I'm beginning to think that "other people" never really bought into the moralizations that we did...they just don't care if they are selfish, loutish, or lazy. I'm beginning to think that, rather than "sanity" being the justification for them getting to run amuck, the running amuck LEADS to sanity! That the only way you can get your needs met is to put some priority on your needs and insist, selfishly, that other people put some priority on your needs as well. So they get their needs met, while we watch with our noses against the glass, being so good and so alienated. I'm tired of that.

I'm remembering right now at Burningman 07, I was still trying to put other people's needs ahead of my own, but we were in "deep playa" (that means a couple miles from a porta-pottie on the open desert floor!) I had to pee SOOO bad I just couldn't carry on, despite my embarrassment and yes, shame. My need had to take precedence, and I began dragging my posse behind me on my search for cover, even passing the person lying on the ground having health issues that they wanted to stop and help. The feeling of absolutely letting go of "cool" detachment as my friends formed a ring around me with their backs to me so that I could pee without anyone looking! That was trust on a visceral level, it was the *coolest* thing ever, to rely utterly on my friends for this most basic physical need and to have them help me without a second thought!

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo Catspiracy

Thank you for such nice words, and so much honesty from yourself too. Made me have a little smile and I have such a toilet humour so I liked the pee story

It made me realise that I never ever think that anyone would see me that way - positively - and that if they did, it would be because I have pulled an effective con job on them. I suppose I feel at any moment they will see the same layer of nastiness that I feel everyone sees eventually, and then the whole edifice will come crashing down. The thing is, the good qualities you describe, I see as their evil twins. I know that CBT calls it "disqualifying the positive", but heres what my mind did with your lovely list, to make it nasty:

"Ross, I think you are def. the "cool kid" around these parts. Your posts command quite a respectable following." I have bullied others into accepting my point of view, or keeping their mouths shut for fear of me throwing a tantrum.

"You have a definite personality here that is consistent and sustained throughout all of your threads and posts". I carefully monitor my behaviour to try to guess what people want to hear and its only luck that that remains consistent. When my mood changes I hide away so that my nasty side wont wreck everything. I will say something wrong, totally lacking empathy for someones problems, and cause them to attack me. It will be my fault for being arrogant and only thinking of expressing my own wishes and thoughts

"And it's a lovable, humane, educated, witty, intelligent, and compassionate one". Carefully cultivated out of fear, and am in constant worry of it slipping and of people that see through it. If someone likes me, the con job has worked. If someone hates me, they have seen the truth. I MUST exercise complete control or EVERYONE will eventually see it and think I am a hateful resentful, conceited, miserly bastard.

I know I have all the usual CBT things up there - overgeneralisation, all or nothing, disqualifying the positive, should statements, jumping to conclusions bla bla, but this stuff is coming from deep inside. I guess being the 'cool kid' means that finally its no longer an act and the sensation of "its about to fall apart" is gone. You are right - acceptance is where I need to go, but I guess right now Im still at "intellectual acceptance": I know I should, I know humans are flawed beings, I am a human and so should be flawed, that people like me more when im genuine and open about flaws etc. But Im not at "gut acceptance" yet, and that part of me Im talking about is something deep inside that hasnt yet fully responded to my intellectual awareness of needing to accept myself.

When I read your nice story about Burning Man, I realised I have 'been there' in the past I guess, moments of breakthrough and acceptance. But they were only temporary. I think the situations I was in helped it, so I guess its the changing face of life and lately my experiences of trying to have a career, and the way my personality disorder wrecked that, are uppermost in my mind. I joined a big oil company, and tried to be "the successful cool kid", which I guess is probably harder to pull off in a tight, competitive corporate enviornment than say uni, my old punk rock friends or work placement. MAbbe I just pushed it too far I dunno. Sad.

Still, lots more work to do in therapy ... thank you for your nice post, made me feel warm and stuff :)

[walker]

:bigarmhug[1]:

[hummm_mabbe]

Thankyou Missie Walkie T

:)

[hummm_mabbe]

Actually Cats has made me realise some stuff. This phrase I wrote: "If someone likes me, the con job has worked. If someone hates me, they have seen the truth."

It explains why, when I get to that rejection / abandonment / humiliation stage, even though it feels like hell, there is an element of relief in there too. All the while someone seems to like me, there is that sense it will fall apart. Its so much EFFORT to keep it together, the anxiety, the second guessing bla bla, so when it falls apart, its like I dont have to try anymore. Its a relief.

In the same way, being alone is relieving, but it brings with it loneliness and emptiness. But the moment I start to bring people into my life, I start trudging up that ski lift, getting higher and higher and the fall getting greater and greater, and I feel I will always fall - so why make the journey up?

Part of it is that I belive that inside is only bad, or childish hysteria, conceit and anger, covered over by these faces, and so I am destined always to make the fall. I can try to avoid letting these qualities out, but eventually they do, and no one is ever going to value arrogance, conceit and childish anger. I just feel that others acceptance does not go this far But then, these were the words that my mum and sister used to use, and their opinion was EVERYTHING to me, so it stands to reason that I would see others the same way.

Insight is good, but its nicer when my tummy gets it as well as my brain.

[wednesday]

Sorry Rossie- but it just strikes me that you have the wrong take on this.

I think it all comes down to not feeling UNQUALIFIED acceptance from your parents.

You then get a CRAVING (which is like a drug) for any kind of approval and are hypersensitive to rejection. So the only way that you get that brilliant high is from a little approval.

It is just logical that all of this insecurity continues on to school and then to the workplace.

I do all of this too. In the end it is my belief that we should work towards a position where we don't place our self worth in the hands of others. We may prefer their approval, but our happiness should not depend on it.

[hummm_mabbe]

Sorry Rossie- but it just strikes me that you have the wrong take on this.

I think it all comes down to not feeling UNQUALIFIED acceptance from your parents.

You then get a CRAVING (which is like a drug) for any kind of approval and are hypersensitive to rejection. So the only way that you get that brilliant high is from a little approval.

It is just logical that all of this insecurity continues on to school and then to the workplace.

I do all of this too. In the end it is my belief that we should work towards a position where we don't place our self worth in the hands of others. We may prefer their approval, but our happiness should not depend on it.

Oh yes, thats the root cause - lack of unqualified acceptance, constant criticism, physically abusive environment, rejection and bullying at school / work lalalala. Its only part of me that wants to be the cool kid - I recognise that its not the healthy option at all, and that its just driven by approval seeking. Ive known that at an intellectual level since 2003 when my T identified "approval addiction" as my (then) main problem.

Since then, I have tried very hard not to need approval, not to be addicted to it, and Ive done a great job of denying that part of me still craves it - repressed that part of me and pretended it wasnt there, so that therapists no longer say "oh, youre approval addicted". Like all these things, knowing its there is not the path to getting over it, and being told to not be approval addicted is not the path to getting over it, because its not something you are consciously choosing to do.

With this thread I just wanted to state, out loud, that its there and to look at it fully. Stop being ashamed of it, and that shame comes from knowing how things should be but arent.

The path to recovery is to admit it, understand why its there, gain what it is a subsititute for in reality (unconditional acceptance and love), learn how to go on getting the healthy thing in reality and to be aware of, and gradually change, the behaviours connected to the old, needs-deprived way of being. I know this, I just have to do it and I think that this thread is me identifying one of the needs-deprivation related behaviours that need changing. I guess all Im really looking for is people that feel the same and can relate in the hope that I can learn from their feelings, as opposed to being told what my problem is because I feel Ive known that for ages. Sorry to seem ungrateful but you said something ive been told over and over again and I tend to feel frustrated and seen as thick when that happens.

I realise you were only trying to help though and that its my own sensitivities that have made me feel irritated.

[hummm_mabbe]

Sorry for that above, wednesday

I got annoyed for silly reasons and I feel bad about it now. I guess I felt invalidated and criticised and I see that wasnt your intention. Thank you for trying to be helpful.

[hummm_mabbe]

Sorry for that above, wednesday

I got annoyed for silly reasons and I feel bad about it now. I guess I felt invalidated and criticised and I see that wasnt your intention. Thank you for trying to be helpful.

Actually thinking about it, this is an example of the same thing with me - seeing criticism where none is intended and reacting as though there was. Its the same as with teasing, which I have been nattering about lately. I find it hard to tell the difference between a friendly tease and a malicious one, and the same with advice I guess. I tend to see it as a criticism sometimes. I sometimes have more ability to hold back my emotional reaction say if Im using my mindfulness, but it doesnt always work. Also has to do with my intellect being the only thing I feel I have of any value, so I am hyper-sensitive to anything that seems to question it. Of course that means people DO see me as conceited cuz thats exactly how Im acting ... oh poo poo poo poo bum its all true :cry emoticon:

I guess I feel like small criticism will grow, everyone else will see it, grab hold of it and make it worse, then everyone will think it and I will be hated again .. rejected, attacked, hurt. So I have to argue back to make myself 'safe', but prolly in fact by over-reacting I just make others think oo what a grumpie bast. Hmm Its about my safety and place in the world, I feel it will lead to total destruction, as opposed to a little disagreement or some disapproval. Its like it threatens my entire world falling into a pit of pain and emptiness.

Guess thats why its such a hair trigger.

[walker]

Actually thinking about it, this is an example of the same thing with me - seeing criticism where none is intended and reacting as though there was. Its the same as with teasing, which I have been nattering about lately. I find it hard to tell the difference between a friendly tease and a malicious one, and the same with advice I guess. I tend to see it as a criticism sometimes. I sometimes have more ability to hold back my emotional reaction say if Im using my mindfulness, but it doesnt always work. Also has to do with my intellect being the only thing I feel I have of any value, so I am hyper-sensitive to anything that seems to question it. Of course that means people DO see me as conceited cuz thats exactly how Im acting ... oh poo poo poo poo bum its all true :cry emoticon:

I guess I feel like small criticism will grow, everyone else will see it, grab hold of it and make it worse, then everyone will think it and I will be hated again .. and so I have to argue back to make myself 'safe', but prolly in fact by over-reacting I just make others think oo what a grumpie bast. Hmm

oh yes

get this BADLY

every word, every phrase, every sentence, every glance, every nod ............

they all go through my criticism/judgment filter - and set of alarms a million times a day

I am on constant high alert

[hummm_mabbe]

oh yes

get this BADLY

every word, every phrase, every sentence, every glance, every nod ............

they all go through my criticism/judgment filter - and set of alarms a million times a day

I am on constant high alert

I guess if I was being a good schema therapee I would identify the schemas involved for me here ... defectiveness, failure, mistrust and abuse, insufficient self control / self discipline.

Hmm

EDIT: Oo modes - abandoned / abused child, angry child, overcompensation mode to 'hide' anger and then punitive parent against myself for expressing my anger. Soo I need to nurture little Ross and see that the overcompensator isnt needed, or angry child because I can get my needs met in other ways. Hmm something to think about.

[catspiracy]

Since then, I have tried very hard not to need approval, not to be addicted to it, and Ive done a great job of denying that part of me still craves it - repressed that part of me and pretended it wasnt there, so that therapists no longer say "oh, youre approval addicted". Like all these things, knowing its there is not the path to getting over it, and being told to not be approval addicted is not the path to getting over it, because its not something you are consciously choosing to do.

Here, this is where I see your mind taking the truth away from your belly. You are "trying very hard not to need approval", but that is a basic human need! It's like trying very hard not to need oxygen, and feeling like a failure when you gasp another breath.

That was my point about "other people' getting to be selfish, loutish, and lazy: those are the routes to health! Selfishness means putting your needs first and insisting that they be met! Loutish means you have your own point of view and you stand by it even if it annoys or threatens more fragile senses of self around you. Lazy means you take the time to recharge and relax so that you can continue to be well! We are wrong in that we see these as "sins". They are actually as valid as hunger and thirst and the need to breathe. And the need for approval--we are herd animals! To get a horse to join up with you, you ignore it and shoo it away until it begs you to be friends. That's what these dominating figures in your life have done to join you up into their sick herd, but you introjected it (and so did I). The horse, once joined up, is unselfconscious and trusts that he belongs, but us--we just keep remembering getting shunned and stay on the bottom of the herd hierarchy, looking for the shun before it comes so we can say, "i wasn't a fool, I saw that one coming".....

I swear there must be a "victim" pheromone. I never understood why everyone kept picking on me, people would say, "You set yourself up! we can't resist!" but I could never step outside and see myself doing it. Now, I attend these parties and, although I can tell you wonderful tales of acceptance and participation, I still dissociate and hover just outside my body, watching myself from the outside. So I'm no longer the victim anymore, but more like an unapproachable outsider....? small talk makes me sick, I tend to collect with the deeper and the weirder, even among burners! And that's ok, that's my kind of herd.

You just need to join up with a different herd. You are definitely a lead horse around here, and you can call that an act, but arent they all? Your act is one of the most enjoyable ones I've ever encountered online! I mean, you could have walled yourself up into a troll persona but you chose this one. That is a revelation of your "true character", that you chose to present yourself the way you continue to do.

love to you,

cat

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Cats

I know what you mean, I suppose my reaction to that was "theres a fine line between needing occasional, healthy approval, and total sycophancy and fear-driven neediness". An approval addiction would be when its just that - an addiction. Some approval is good, and necessary - you are right. But like all these things its a matter of degree. I dont have an approval addiction - I have a fear that critcism will lead to hating and abuse, not just disapproval. That is more akin to paranoia and comes from my mistrust and abuse schema. Many people can be people pleasers / approval addicts without actually thinking they are going to be physically assaulted, ostracised and abandoned as a result of disapproval.

When it comes to chyanging I know its a bit like yin and yang. First is yin, my mode of sycophancy and fear if you will. Then there is yang - not needing approval. Then comes the healthy blend of the two with the little dots which amounts to 'interdependency', but this blend cant come first. The solution is neither learning to approve of myself, getting a healthy level of approval from others nor seeing that approval is not necessary for happiness - its seeing that people are not all out to destroy me and that I am safe.

I guess I am also very bad at absorbing compliments :rolleyes:

[Wobbles]

God i love reading your posts hummm..... you fascinate me no end!!

*hugs you*

[hummm_mabbe]

God i love reading your posts hummm..... you fascinate me no end!!

*hugs you*

If only you knew that I just singed all the hairs off the back of my finger while cooking potatoes and mixed veg, then you would rightfully think I was a silly sod.

That smells of charred finger hair.

Pew.

[Wobbles]

Eww that smell of burning human hair.... hope you didn't hurt yaself. Still fascinating though :)

[wednesday]

The path to recovery is to admit it, understand why its there, gain what it is a subsititute for in reality (unconditional acceptance and love), learn how to go on getting the healthy thing in reality and to be aware of, and gradually change, the behaviours connected to the old, needs-deprived way of being. I know this, I just have to do it and I think that this thread is me identifying one of the needs-deprivation related behaviours that need changing. I guess all Im really looking for is people that feel the same and can relate in the hope that I can learn from their feelings, as opposed to being told what my problem is because I feel Ive known that for ages. Sorry to seem ungrateful but you said something ive been told over and over again and I tend to feel frustrated and seen as thick when that happens.

I realise you were only trying to help though and that its my own sensitivities that have made me feel irritated.

I know that you are aware of all this. As i said in the post and many times on the boards, I get completely consumed by this all the time. Knowing on an intellectual level only helps a little and this is why I think we need reassurance from therapists.

I just don't think this knowledge stops me from getting caught up in all the approval seeking behaviours and what I think that in order to feel compassion for myself, I need to feel compassion for little Wed when she so desperately wanted to get some acceptance. I think that compassion comes partly from knowledge and partly seeing that you did deserve to be accepted. Many many children want to be seen as 'cool' or popular and most people still want acceptance- but there is a difference between prefering to be approved of and being desperate for it.

Knowledge does not stop me getting caught up in the whole approval thing-in work, at home, even from my therapists.

I thought it sounded as though you were getting caught up in - if I was wrong there, i am sorry. You know and I know that there would never be enough approval for the things we do, look like etc. Even when I am very successful I just think I've pulled the wool over their eyes for a bit, just wait till they find out.

Now perhaps I am thinking that you were just working through feeling some compassion for wee Rossi.

[AndyL]

But thanks for the comments.

Sugar.

!!

[hummm_mabbe]

I guess mabbe this explains part of why I cannot handle teasing - I know I get angry and scared when I am misunderstood, and especially if I am criticised on the basis of that misunderstanding. Teasing, being humour, is essentially an exaggeration of soemones traits - and so actually a deliberate, and large misunderstanding. I guess when Im teased I actually do often react with a sense of "nooo thats not me! Im not like that! Noooo!". I do realise this gives me the opportunity to ask 'is the tease / criticism really true' in genuine - and quite ineffectual - CBT style, but its not the words that matter; its the fact that I feel someone wants to hurt me. This may or may not be true, but my automatic (and immune to rational reinterpretation) emotional reaction is that this person IS trying to hurt me, as explained below.

Added to the fact that my main experience of teasing was from my dad and older sister, and as I always felt that she truly hated me (not just normal sibling rivalry but really hated and wanted to hurt me) and was never sure about Dad because he was so aggressive, I always see teasing as being aimed to hurt. Mum did it too I guess, and no one really tried to help me deal with it. I just got the abuse and then told I was too sensitive, yet if any of them ever got teased they would go off on one. Hypocrisy much?

The concept of teasing as being friendly is quite alien to me, and so I always react to it as a threat. I try to overcompensate and 'pretend', but I still feel it and it leaks out, and then folks think oh hey whats his problem?

This really is a big, central problem for me as i cant take any kind of teasing without thinking that it is a direct attempt to hurt, demean or belittle. I really feel like I am the only one this affects too No one else seems to have such a problem with it and people dont seem to understand why it causes me to feel as bad as I do. Thing is, it eventually leads to full fledged bullying, probably because the reaction to teasing marks me out. Thats when the abuse starts and the paranoia kicks of majorly, so I guess I see teasing as being the point where it all starts as well ... god I feel like such a well conditioned victim. Thanks, family.

Wednesday, yes i think this is me trying to give Little Rossie some compassion and understanding. It feels like he is coming out a bit more lately, maybe he is trusting more.

[Rael]

i react very badly to teasing too, i often find that what starts out as fairly good natured turns into 'god did you see the way she reacted to that' and it becomes something much bigger and nastier than it originally was. some things i can take it with, but some trigger an instant reaction and even if i manage to not react outwardly it can tear me up inside thinking about it. i can end up thinking about the briefest throwaway comments made by people for weeks or longer and they grow in my mind. i was used to teasing and stuff being a cover for a more deep seated hatred and was always loaded with intent to hurt, so the concept of someone doing it lightheartedly is an alien one.

i think also it matters to me who it is saying it, but then again those who could get away with more wouldnt because they know me well enough to know it is not appropriate, and they understand what is ok to tease me about and what should most definitely not be.

for little (and big) Rossie

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

i react very badly to teasing too, i often find that what starts out as fairly good natured turns into 'god did you see the way she reacted to that' and it becomes something much bigger and nastier than it originally was. some things i can take it with, but some trigger an instant reaction and even if i manage to not react outwardly it can tear me up inside thinking about it. i can end up thinking about the briefest throwaway comments made by people for weeks or longer and they grow in my mind. i was used to teasing and stuff being a cover for a more deep seated hatred and was always loaded with intent to hurt, so the concept of someone doing it lightheartedly is an alien one.

i think also it matters to me who it is saying it, but then again those who could get away with more wouldnt because they know me well enough to know it is not appropriate, and they understand what is ok to tease me about and what should most definitely not be.

for little (and big) Rossie

xxx

YOU ARE MY REAL SISTER CUZ YOU ARE EXACTLY LIKE ME, THE OTHER SISTER WAS A MISTAKE AT THE HOSPITAL ok

[Rael]

awww that is the sweetest thing anyone has said to me talking with you has given me much more confidence in my own opinions, and helped me feel i can say what i think instead of waiting to see what i think is the right thing to say which i always used to do.

thank you

xxx