Different Types Of Abuse And Neglect

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo

Today I read a good book called "Child Abuse and Neglect". In it, the author - David Howe - outlined something I had not seen before: A more detailed breakdown of types of neglect and abuse, and their effects on the child and their personality.

For me, I felt like I found one of the final pieces of the puzzle. I have always struggled when I read examples of overt and obvious abuse. Sometimes the most extreme ones make me think "oh no way, thats not how it was" and then I start invalidating myself, even though I KNOW something was missing. However in this book, he talks about something called "Disorganised Neglect" which is slightly more subtle, and does incluse some periods where love or affection is given, though it may not be in response to what the child actually needs. I wont actually go into detail about what he said, because the chapter was several pages long - but it completely described me, my behaviours, my mum and how she was. It also accounted for those moments where things, just for a while, felt ok. Its those moments that make me want to deny ANYTHING was ever wrong - but now I see how it was that this particular blend came to be. In addition, my relationship with Dad more accurately fit the "physical abuse" pattern. Overall, it validated made me and made me stop blaming myself - which feels like a step onwards. To get more info, look up the book online, there may be a google books preview. Waterstones stock it too - I just stood in the shop reading it cuz it costs £23!

I then went and found this online - its a presentation on some of the findings in the book. It might be helpful to folks for understanding and things.

Clickie

[hummm_mabbe]

Just read that presentation throgh again, and the bit that struck me was where it says "The child begins to experience their own arousal as a danger signal for abandonment or danger. This triggers hyper arousal (fight / flight), dissociation (freeze), disorganisation and non-mentalising function".

How many of us have felt like, as soon as we FEEL something, the world will fall apart?

:(

[Roses]

u r right on the money

[S1CKK]

Simultaneous activation of two

incompatible behavioural responses:

<-- FEAR and ATTACHMENT -->

(avoidance) (approach)

so true......can't manage to read it all at the moment

[wednesday]

I haven't had a chance to look at the book but I wonder if you can relate to this. I was not abused as such but in my family I got 'love' as in everyone else says I was loved but it was never personal to me. In my mind therefore it was actually that my Mum fulfilled her responsibility. She has never even looked at me in a way that made me feel loved. I find it so hard to explain. Its like--of course I love you because you are my daughter- but I don't know or like you. So really this is not love at all.

Do you know what I mean--there was no real attachment/

[Roses]

"Simultaneous activation of two incompatible behavioural responses"

can u say that when ur drunk?

[bibiddi]

I wasnt able to access the link, cos my computer is being rubbish recently.

Ages ago I read a book for social workers, it was to help them understand attachment theories. In it they talked about 'disorganised neglect' and said it was one of the hardest to spot. The child would be the smiley one who hid all they pain. If a child is smiley no one ever asks if they need help.

[eve-naive]

Thanks for posting Hummm, it looks really interesting. There was a model that just hit the mark - I'm going to get the book I think. Although I have big problems with the term abuse or even neglect. It makes me feel guilty like I am making it up - they are too strong words to apply to myself. Although underlying my initial reactions of guilt there is the truth - which is hard to look at. Don't know if I am making any sense. It wasn't subtle, but didn't take any form of something that we would automatically perceive as abuse or neglect. I was fed, clothed, and enjoyed some good times too, making it very hard to define.

Yet:

Disorganised and disorientating:

Frightening - Physically alarming - hostile, dangerous. (dad)

Frightened - Psychologically alarming - helpless. (mum)

This model summed up what the dynamic was like in my home, and helped - somehow. I identified.

Thanks again,

Love eve-naive xxx

[AveMaria]

I can't get the link to let me read the info, I'm trying to set up a wireless network and at the moment just seem to be messing everything up... but what you wrote I can relate to. I'll check back and try later since it sounds really interesting, thanks for sharing! How are you doing this week?

[hummm_mabbe]

I haven't had a chance to look at the book but I wonder if you can relate to this. I was not abused as such but in my family I got 'love' as in everyone else says I was loved but it was never personal to me. In my mind therefore it was actually that my Mum fulfilled her responsibility. She has never even looked at me in a way that made me feel loved. I find it so hard to explain. Its like--of course I love you because you are my daughter- but I don't know or like you. So really this is not love at all.

Do you know what I mean--there was no real attachment/

Hi weds

Yes, I relate completely to that. The words were there, but the feeling wasnt. Reading the description of disorganised attachment made it so clear why that was the case, and as bibiddi said - its one of the hardest to spot. Its still hard to spot - within ourselves too when we are adults. I suppose the thing that I feel Im getting out of this is that we knew what we felt, but it didnt match with what we were told we should be feeling. I think where you say about "I dont know or like you" - that pretty much sums up how I always felt too. Now that I have read this particular definition of neglect, and drawn the similarities between how I am and what D.N causes, I feel validated. I always felt like "oh its not ABUSE - thats like being left in a gutter, and being burned and beaten etc" so I dismissed what was really there. But now, reading this book, I can see that it was a particular type of neglect that is recognised as damaging.

Added to this was my dads violent temper, distance and unpredicatbility - though he too could sometimes brighten up. Its the fact that there WERE islands of good that makes my mind invalidate and dismiss any thoughts that ANYTHING was bad. This is the extreme difficulty with the more subtle forms of neglect.

[hummm_mabbe]

I can't get the link to let me read the info, I'm trying to set up a wireless network and at the moment just seem to be messing everything up... but what you wrote I can relate to. I'll check back and try later since it sounds really interesting, thanks for sharing! How are you doing this week?

Hmm odd how its not working for some folks. Here is the URL for it: http://www.psykopp.no/doc/Attachment_Devel...-David_Howe.ppt maybe that will work

I feel good today - a combination of things with therapy, and this discovery today. I feel calmer. Wheee

[Roses]

glad u feeling better babes xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

I wasnt able to access the link, cos my computer is being rubbish recently.

Ages ago I read a book for social workers, it was to help them understand attachment theories. In it they talked about 'disorganised neglect' and said it was one of the hardest to spot. The child would be the smiley one who hid all they pain. If a child is smiley no one ever asks if they need help.

Ohhhhhhhhhh yes, that was me. Plus because I was doing well academically, no one thought I had any problems ... apparently it causes kids to be very attention seeking and emotionally unstable. I wasnt 'allowed' to be naughty, so my attention seeking took the form of being clever and getting recognition for it. I couldnt stand it if someone else got the prize or I didnt know an answer That was my attention seeking ... amazingly, I still think its part of me now, look at me with all my writing about psychological things ... "love me love me I know stuff" :cry emoticon:

Hmmm

[hummm_mabbe]

glad u feeling better babes xxx

Tis like a calmey "ahhh" feeling, well at least generally.

I realised reading that stuff that the attachment style translates directly into how you deal with stress, especially interpersonal stress. Today I feel generally calm, but I know that if something happens Im going to be thrown back into it because my overall attachment style has not had the time it needs to change - that will take more time, mabbe a year or more. Its nice to be able to understand it like this though, its kinna like the thing that links "how things were" with "how I am now".

Thank you for cuddles

Do you like my stinky bee?

[hummm_mabbe]

Simultaneous activation of two

incompatible behavioural responses:

<-- FEAR and ATTACHMENT -->

(avoidance) (approach)

so true......can't manage to read it all at the moment

Tis a bit heavy going isnt it I found myself seeing so much of myself in it though. Dunno if thats a good thing or not Spose it is, cuz any new learning helps?

Also that veering between two extremes - the need for closeness, but the fear if it too - maybe explains so much of why folks with BPD seem to 'change' so often.

[Roses]

I think your stinky bee needs to learn how to 'bee-have' himself (teehee)

[Wobbles]

Hey hummm,

I too have been doing some research on Bowlby's attachment theory and have found it all particularly interesting.

http://psychology.about.com/od/loveandattr...chmentstyle.htm

http://www.cyc-net.org/cyc-online/cycol-0304-bowlby.html

Are some good sites on Information.

Without having talked in too much depth about our mothers, from what you have said i feel we had a very similar attachment to to them. I didn't suffer with physical abuse like yourself, which i'm really sorry about, but i did have a father who was not emotionally available to me. I have had a hard time getting my head around the fact that what my mother did to me, and still tries to do is abuse. It's the subtle, quiet, emotional type that people in public would never see, and family members would probably not even pick up on. It was however, abuse.

Being someone w ho suffered both types from your parents, do you mind me asking which has had the most negative affect on you? The physical abuse, or the more subtle emotional type from your mother?

I've been dissociating from as early as i can remember, and one of my major problems, is that i remember very little of my life. I'm 29 now, and i have no identity because i have no memories. My T seemed to be rather perplexed by the fact that i couldn't remember life with my father, even though i was 16 when he killed himself, technically i should have 16 years of memories of him being around. Dissociating has been my saviour, but also my worst enemy, and i'm trying to learn how not to do it.

I got my attention from being 'naughty', the rebellious one. I was always blamed for fights between myself and my sister, which i know for a fact she always started, my feelings and thoughts were always invalidated, my mothers always being the most important. I was taught it was bad, selfish to feel anything.

My mother's famous words were 'I know you better than you know yourself'. Which was always a laugh because it couldn't be further from the truth, she's never known me, she's only known what she thought she was making, what i let her see because it wasn't acceptable to show her the real me. SHe always treated me as though i was a burden to her, an inconvenience and something to try and control to make life better or easier for herself. She still tries to control me now and can't grasp the concept that i'm an adult, a wife, a mother and can make decisions myself without consulting her, or getting her permission or approval.

ANyway, i suppose i'm rambling and not really offering anything particularly useful. Glad you're feeling better and more enlightened.

[AveMaria]

Yay finally was able to read the link! I could definitely relate to this part:

The child has an image of themselves as unmanagable and frightening; a self that is rageful, frightened, hating, and persecutory.

Growing up, anything bad that happened was always my fault, even if it was impossible that I had anything to do with it. So that obviously led me to believe that there is something wrong with me as a person.

[hummm_mabbe]

:trigger:

Hi Wobbles

It may be that your T is keeping his thoughts to himself, but total lack of recollection of one of our parents for anything later than 3 years old (which is when normal childhood amnesia ends) is generally held to be due to the dissociation (locking away) of traumatic memory. These are some suggestions, which you may want to think twice about reading straight off as they may be triggering. I am writing on the basis of what I have read in the trauma literature and about dissociation.

1. You MAY have been abused by him. Whilst it was controversial back in the 90's, and there is strong argument and evidence for and against repressed memory, a recent book by a respected Trauma Psychologist (Dr James Chu) cited numerous proven examples of "psychogenic amnesia". They covered several years of life memory, for one or both parents, and had corroborated evidence of abuse by one or more relatives AFTER the person recalled the incidents.

2. Did you SEE him after the suicide, perhaps see the body? The same book carries an example of a girl who was made to kiss her dead granny whilst in her coffin at an early age, and subsequently did not recall the memory until her late twenties, treatment for which ceased her PTS symtpoms.

3. Were you BLAMED or did you feel responsible for his death?

If you dissociate, and have lost that much memory, something very traumatic has happened to cause it. There is complicated theory behind the genesis of traumatic amnesia, but if you also dissociate regularly, this suggests even more strongly that you have experienced something extremely distrubing that you have thus far not recalled, or may be partially aware of but 'dont want to go there'. Your therapist would be exactly right to pursue anything like this carefully as it can cause a stirring up of extreme symptoms, especially dissociative, if the memories are broached too soon, or without the required level of support. Dissociation is essentially a powerful post-traumatic coping mechanism. If you have it very strongly and often, then you have been traumatised by something. The memory gap should be an alarm signal that whatever it is is contained in that time period as dissociation literally IS "spacing out" real experiences, either in the present moment or in history.

[hummm_mabbe]

Oh sorry wobbles I missed a question ...

When it comes to either / or, I really feel they were equal. All of the problems I have sit alongside one another and I can trace each element to one or other of them. Its intersting because the attachment literature feels that all of this stuff should be associated with the primary caregiver, but from experience and in what I know about Schema Therapy, the broad influences of all family members play a part.

I have less anger at my Dad because he admitted it, said sorry and is working to forge a real relationship with me, one that i feel is equal and AS empathic as its ever likely to get (which does leave something to be desired, but I am learning how to accept that people can only give so much, and that if they cant quite give what I need emotionally, I can also ask others for help). My mum however totally buried her head in the sand and has denied and run away from everything. She probably genuinely cannot see what was wrong, because it came from a place of desperation for her - she felt like the victim so much of the time that it was impossible for her to see what was happening. Whilst this makes it easier for me to understand, and see that it WASNT my fault, its only very recently that I have gone from a feeling of pure anger to one of acceptance and disappointment. Im not totally there, but quite a long way.

Hope that helps.

[AveMaria]

I am learning how to accept that people can only give so much, and that if they cant quite give what I need emotionally, I can also ask others for help

This is kind of off topic (sorry) but in regards to what you said, why can some people not emotionally give enough? Is it only with people who have mh issues needing more emotional support than many people can give or is it that some people just don't have the capacity to be caring and empathetic individuals?

xxx

[Wobbles]

Hi Wobbles

It may be that your T is keeping his thoughts to himself, but total lack of recollection of one of our parents for anything later than 3 years old (which is when normal childhood amnesia ends) is generally held to be due to the dissociation (locking away) of traumatic memory. These are some suggestions, which you may want to think twice about reading straight off as they may be triggering. I am writing on the basis of what I have read in the trauma literature and about dissociation.

1. You MAY have been abused by him. Whilst it was controversial back in the 90's, and there is strong argument and evidence for and against repressed memory, a recent book by a respected Trauma Psychologist (Dr James Chu) cited numerous proven examples of "psychogenic amnesia". They covered several years of life memory, for one or both parents, and had corroborated evidence of abuse by one or more relatives AFTER the person recalled the incidents.

2. Did you SEE him after the suicide, perhaps see the body? The same book carries an example of a girl who was made to kiss her dead granny whilst in her coffin at an early age, and subsequently did not recall the memory until her late twenties, treatment for which ceased her PTS symtpoms.

3. Were you BLAMED or did you feel responsible for his death?

If you dissociate, and have lost that much memory, something very traumatic has happened to cause it. There is complicated theory behind the genesis of traumatic amnesia, but if you also dissociate regularly, this suggests even more strongly that you have experienced something extremely distrubing that you have thus far not recalled, or may be partially aware of but 'dont want to go there'. Your therapist would be exactly right to pursue anything like this carefully as it can cause a stirring up of extreme symptoms, especially dissociative, if the memories are broached too soon, or without the required level of support. Dissociation is essentially a powerful post-traumatic coping mechanism. If you have it very strongly and often, then you have been traumatised by something. The memory gap should be an alarm signal that whatever it is is contained in that time period as dissociation literally IS "spacing out" real experiences, either in the present moment or in history.

A Psychologist i saw briefly a number of years ago suggested, without hesitation that maybe my father sexually abused me as a child, hence the lack of memories of life. At the time, it filled me with rage. Now it does make me nervous, and my first instinct is to say 'No way'. But the fact is, i do know, or at least strongly suspect that there was sexual abuse at some point of my childhood. The main problem being that i have no idea who was responsible, or exactly what was done to me. So to deny it was my father would only be due to loyalty, protectiveness of him.

I did not see him after his death. The last time i saw him was 4 days before hand. I did however, blame myself for a long time. I 'think' i have come to terms with my part in it all.

It's not just that i don't remember my father. It's that i don't remember anything. I don't remember my mother or my sister, my schooling, my teachers, my friends at school, my out of school activities, family get together etc. I only know they happened because i've been told, and because i've seen photos of a little girl who i'm told is me attending these things. I have very fleeting, very vague, dettached recollections, akin to having seen a movie a very long time ago and attempting to recall what happened in the movie, but because it's been so many years since you saw it, you don't know what happened in it, what it was about, or even who was in it. If someone tells you about certain scenes, you can 'imagine' what those scenes may look like, but there is no emotional attachment to them. Does that make sense? I even have trouble remembering last week....yet i have had no distinct dissociative episodes. That's just me, it's as if i'm now incapable of storing meaningful, emotionally enriched memories of day to day life, let alone major events. I can say in general what's been happening lately, but if you were to ask what i did last Tuesday, i couldn't tell you, and i certainly couldn't tell you what i was feeling.

In regards to the affects of both types of abuse, i can see how getting an apology from your father and his willingness to work on your relationship. My mother too has always been the victim, will never understand what she's done to me, will never take responsibility, and certainly will never apologise. As you say, she has buried her head and everything i try to tell her, however i tell her, has to impossibly get through many layers of thick wet sand. And she can't be bothered.

I'm sorry, i have hijacked your thread.

[Wobbles]

I am learning how to accept that people can only give so much, and that if they cant quite give what I need emotionally, I can also ask others for help

This is kind of off topic (sorry) but in regards to what you said, why can some people not emotionally give enough? Is it only with people who have mh issues needing more emotional support than many people can give or is it that some people just don't have the capacity to be caring and empathetic individuals?

xxx

I have personally learnt that unless someone grows up in an environment with positive conditions of worth, where empathy is encouraged it decreases a persons ability to be empathic.

I think it's also a nature versus nurture debate. But personally, i believe if someone grew up in a fmaily where empathy wasn't encouraged, then it's not a quality that is encouraged to grow or be used.

Each person is different obviously, some are capable of giving more than others, some are more willing to give than others, and some have more to give. Mixed with people with mh issues, particularly BPD who by nature are attention seekers, demand more than the average 'healthy' person... a mix of someone who isn't willing or able to give, and a person who needs more than the average person....is not condusive to an empathic, supportive, encouraging, congruent relationship. In my opinion.

[hummm_mabbe]

I am learning how to accept that people can only give so much, and that if they cant quite give what I need emotionally, I can also ask others for help

This is kind of off topic (sorry) but in regards to what you said, why can some people not emotionally give enough? Is it only with people who have mh issues needing more emotional support than many people can give or is it that some people just don't have the capacity to be caring and empathetic individuals?

xxx

I think its all relative to experience, and that having a mh problem is sliding scale. There are people who lack empathy, and may even have been somewhat deprived of it themselves, who do not actually have any diagnosable disorder. It may be a blind spot. They may be selfish, or they may be unable to tolerate other peoples pain - you know, actually feel it INTENSELY and not be able to handle it themselves, and so hope that if they dismiss the problem it will go away. They may subscribe to societal views that emotions should be kept hidden, or that crying is for wimps, or that anyone who does cry is attention seeking. Again they may not have a mh problem, though its also true that a number of mh issues DO cause extreme lack of empathy and focus only on the self. NPD, APD, PPD and sociopathy are examples, but they are endpoints of a scale. I belive that mental disorders are just extremes of a natural continuum of emotional health, with travel along the spectrum being fuelled by a scale of trauma, combined with receding support. Those who lack empathy may still receive it, and so be "healthy" - that is, happy. Others around them may not be so fortunate, and so in this way a 'healthy' person can be pathogenic to someone else, given the right circumstances.

The problem is compounded in BPD because sufferers have usually been so chornically invalidated, dismissed and hurt that its all they know, meaning the radar for it is super attuned. Essentially, there was never enough given - and it takes a lot to fill a very big hole. People who are used to giving 'average' levels of empathy may feel overwhelmed by the BPD need for empathy, because it takes so much longer to fill the hole that has been there so long. In addition, we deflect it away from ourselves by not being able to trust, by not feeling its real or that we do not deserve it - again all messages that dismissal, hurt and invalidation program into us. They are deeper than just beliefs, and so very hard to change just by challenging them intellectually - they are what we are built on. They can be changed, but it takes gradual change in how we are treated, in who we choose around us, in what we feel in our gut about other people and what we mean to the world.

[AveMaria]

The problem is compounded in BPD because sufferers have usually been so chornically invalidated, dismissed and hurt that its all they know, meaning the radar for it is super attuned. Essentially, there was never enough given - and it takes a lot to fill a very big hole. People who are used to giving 'average' levels of empathy may feel overwhelmed by the BPD need for empathy, because it takes so much longer to fill the hole that has been there so long. In addition, we deflect it away from ourselves by not being able to trust, by not feeling its real or that we do not deserve it - again all messages that dismissal, hurt and invalidation program into us. They are deeper than just beliefs, and so very hard to change just by challenging them intellectually - they are what we are built on. They can be changed, but it takes gradual change in how we are treated, in who we choose around us, in what we feel in our gut about other people and what we mean to the world.

That sums it up perfectly! Guess in a roundabout way I was wondering if it is even possible for someone who will try to care about and be supportive of a bpd. Sorry I am in a hopeless mood today and what you wrote was exactly what I am moping about! Lucky you, lol.

xxx